Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 Has anyone tried the " rosacea diet' " ? Any results? Thanks, Elena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 Hi, I was reading through your response below and was interested in your saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases general immune response. I know that following such a diet causes ketosis. Were you referring to that? I've tried following a high protein, low carb diet and felt terrible. I think I was going through ketosis - felt very dizzy and constipated. It was horrible. I didn't notice much of change in my skin. Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed the role of simple sugars triggering flares. Some people do have issues with food allergies triggering rosacea flares. For me, I don't think this is an issue. I believe if I had food allergies, I would get more symptoms than a flare on my face. I might get swollen lips, eyes, tongue or worse suffer from Anaphylaxis. (I have had those symptoms occur in the past, and my skin has looked great.) I believe food allergies are caused by histamine being released and causing IgE antibodies to form. I think most people who react to histamine releasing foods with rosacea don't have IgE antibodies forming and don't have food allergies. I think that the damaged blood vessels in their face get dilated with the extra amount of histamine in their bodies. If they didn't have damaged blood vessels, they would not see a problem at all like non- rosaceans do. The flushing would not occur. Some people are bothered by histamine-releasing foods (the NRS and the NIH have lists) causing flares. Some of those foods do that for me while some don't. For some people, they aren't bothered by any foods at all. They have other triggers - cold temperatures, excessive heat, etc. Taking all of these issues into consideration, I'm looking at page 101 of Dr. Nase's book where he discusses " Substances Can Cause Widespread Dilation and Trigger Facial Flushing...Foods,beverages, medications and supplements contain natural dilator substances, and can release dilators after being broken down in the gastrointestinal tract. These are both normal events which occur in all humans. If these substances reach high enough concentrations, they can cause widespread dilation of blood vessels and trigger facial flushing. This form of food flushing is, by far, the most common in rosacea sufferers(normal byproducts of ingested substances causing dilation). The hyper-reactive facial blood vessels of rosacea sufferers just can't handle these substances, even at normal concentrations. Some of the most important foods, beverages, medications, supplements that can cause dilation include: Foods that contain or release histamine (a potent dilator)...;foods or supplements that contain or release dilator prostaglandins. The most common example is niacin...;eating large amounts of simple sugars...can cause glucose levels in the blood stream to rise quickly and trigger skin flushing... Anyway, sorry to go off on this tangent. There's been discussion on this board about food allergies and rosacea. Some people have it, but you don't have to have food allergies to react to histamines- releasing foods as Dr. Nase points out. I would guess the majority of people with rosacea who react to foods (many with rosacea don't react to any foods at all) do not have food allergies. The minority probably can list food allergies as a trigger. There's also been discussion of simple sugars causing flares. I've noticed it in myself and Dr. Nase does discuss this. Take care, Matija I don't know about your diet in particular, Brady -- please let me > know if I'm missing something -- but in general the relationship > between diet and the immune system is fairly well documented in the > medical literature, both as a way of modulating the inflammatory > response and in the area of food allergens. > > While certainly effective in decreasing chronic inflammation like > rosacea, immune modulating diets (that strongly limit sugars, among > other things) are notoriously difficult to stay on. ly, it's > also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets > work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just > chronic inflammation. > > A person on an immune modulating diet who eats chocolate, for > example, may well experience increased inflammation, but I wouldn't > call that a rosacea trigger. I would view that as a return to normal > manifestion of inflammation. > > Foods, drinks, and manner of cooking that increase facial flushing > are rosacea triggers, and avoiding them makes obvious sense. That's > not a food allergy, since allergies are stereotypic responses. > Allergic rashes can sometimes be difficult to diagnose, especially > when several rashes are present at the same time. But good allergists > can tell with only a glance what's an allergic reaction on the face > and what isn't. > > Thank you for your email, and I appreciate your letting me know about > your diet. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 Hi, I was reading through your response below and was interested in your saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases general immune response. I know that following such a diet causes ketosis. Were you referring to that? I've tried following a high protein, low carb diet and felt terrible. I think I was going through ketosis - felt very dizzy and constipated. It was horrible. I didn't notice much of change in my skin. Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed the role of simple sugars triggering flares. Some people do have issues with food allergies triggering rosacea flares. For me, I don't think this is an issue. I believe if I had food allergies, I would get more symptoms than a flare on my face. I might get swollen lips, eyes, tongue or worse suffer from Anaphylaxis. (I have had those symptoms occur in the past, and my skin has looked great.) I believe food allergies are caused by histamine being released and causing IgE antibodies to form. I think most people who react to histamine releasing foods with rosacea don't have IgE antibodies forming and don't have food allergies. I think that the damaged blood vessels in their face get dilated with the extra amount of histamine in their bodies. If they didn't have damaged blood vessels, they would not see a problem at all like non- rosaceans do. The flushing would not occur. Some people are bothered by histamine-releasing foods (the NRS and the NIH have lists) causing flares. Some of those foods do that for me while some don't. For some people, they aren't bothered by any foods at all. They have other triggers - cold temperatures, excessive heat, etc. Taking all of these issues into consideration, I'm looking at page 101 of Dr. Nase's book where he discusses " Substances Can Cause Widespread Dilation and Trigger Facial Flushing...Foods,beverages, medications and supplements contain natural dilator substances, and can release dilators after being broken down in the gastrointestinal tract. These are both normal events which occur in all humans. If these substances reach high enough concentrations, they can cause widespread dilation of blood vessels and trigger facial flushing. This form of food flushing is, by far, the most common in rosacea sufferers(normal byproducts of ingested substances causing dilation). The hyper-reactive facial blood vessels of rosacea sufferers just can't handle these substances, even at normal concentrations. Some of the most important foods, beverages, medications, supplements that can cause dilation include: Foods that contain or release histamine (a potent dilator)...;foods or supplements that contain or release dilator prostaglandins. The most common example is niacin...;eating large amounts of simple sugars...can cause glucose levels in the blood stream to rise quickly and trigger skin flushing... Anyway, sorry to go off on this tangent. There's been discussion on this board about food allergies and rosacea. Some people have it, but you don't have to have food allergies to react to histamines- releasing foods as Dr. Nase points out. I would guess the majority of people with rosacea who react to foods (many with rosacea don't react to any foods at all) do not have food allergies. The minority probably can list food allergies as a trigger. There's also been discussion of simple sugars causing flares. I've noticed it in myself and Dr. Nase does discuss this. Take care, Matija I don't know about your diet in particular, Brady -- please let me > know if I'm missing something -- but in general the relationship > between diet and the immune system is fairly well documented in the > medical literature, both as a way of modulating the inflammatory > response and in the area of food allergens. > > While certainly effective in decreasing chronic inflammation like > rosacea, immune modulating diets (that strongly limit sugars, among > other things) are notoriously difficult to stay on. ly, it's > also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets > work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just > chronic inflammation. > > A person on an immune modulating diet who eats chocolate, for > example, may well experience increased inflammation, but I wouldn't > call that a rosacea trigger. I would view that as a return to normal > manifestion of inflammation. > > Foods, drinks, and manner of cooking that increase facial flushing > are rosacea triggers, and avoiding them makes obvious sense. That's > not a food allergy, since allergies are stereotypic responses. > Allergic rashes can sometimes be difficult to diagnose, especially > when several rashes are present at the same time. But good allergists > can tell with only a glance what's an allergic reaction on the face > and what isn't. > > Thank you for your email, and I appreciate your letting me know about > your diet. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 Hi, I was reading through your response below and was interested in your saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases general immune response. I know that following such a diet causes ketosis. Were you referring to that? I've tried following a high protein, low carb diet and felt terrible. I think I was going through ketosis - felt very dizzy and constipated. It was horrible. I didn't notice much of change in my skin. Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed the role of simple sugars triggering flares. Some people do have issues with food allergies triggering rosacea flares. For me, I don't think this is an issue. I believe if I had food allergies, I would get more symptoms than a flare on my face. I might get swollen lips, eyes, tongue or worse suffer from Anaphylaxis. (I have had those symptoms occur in the past, and my skin has looked great.) I believe food allergies are caused by histamine being released and causing IgE antibodies to form. I think most people who react to histamine releasing foods with rosacea don't have IgE antibodies forming and don't have food allergies. I think that the damaged blood vessels in their face get dilated with the extra amount of histamine in their bodies. If they didn't have damaged blood vessels, they would not see a problem at all like non- rosaceans do. The flushing would not occur. Some people are bothered by histamine-releasing foods (the NRS and the NIH have lists) causing flares. Some of those foods do that for me while some don't. For some people, they aren't bothered by any foods at all. They have other triggers - cold temperatures, excessive heat, etc. Taking all of these issues into consideration, I'm looking at page 101 of Dr. Nase's book where he discusses " Substances Can Cause Widespread Dilation and Trigger Facial Flushing...Foods,beverages, medications and supplements contain natural dilator substances, and can release dilators after being broken down in the gastrointestinal tract. These are both normal events which occur in all humans. If these substances reach high enough concentrations, they can cause widespread dilation of blood vessels and trigger facial flushing. This form of food flushing is, by far, the most common in rosacea sufferers(normal byproducts of ingested substances causing dilation). The hyper-reactive facial blood vessels of rosacea sufferers just can't handle these substances, even at normal concentrations. Some of the most important foods, beverages, medications, supplements that can cause dilation include: Foods that contain or release histamine (a potent dilator)...;foods or supplements that contain or release dilator prostaglandins. The most common example is niacin...;eating large amounts of simple sugars...can cause glucose levels in the blood stream to rise quickly and trigger skin flushing... Anyway, sorry to go off on this tangent. There's been discussion on this board about food allergies and rosacea. Some people have it, but you don't have to have food allergies to react to histamines- releasing foods as Dr. Nase points out. I would guess the majority of people with rosacea who react to foods (many with rosacea don't react to any foods at all) do not have food allergies. The minority probably can list food allergies as a trigger. There's also been discussion of simple sugars causing flares. I've noticed it in myself and Dr. Nase does discuss this. Take care, Matija I don't know about your diet in particular, Brady -- please let me > know if I'm missing something -- but in general the relationship > between diet and the immune system is fairly well documented in the > medical literature, both as a way of modulating the inflammatory > response and in the area of food allergens. > > While certainly effective in decreasing chronic inflammation like > rosacea, immune modulating diets (that strongly limit sugars, among > other things) are notoriously difficult to stay on. ly, it's > also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets > work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just > chronic inflammation. > > A person on an immune modulating diet who eats chocolate, for > example, may well experience increased inflammation, but I wouldn't > call that a rosacea trigger. I would view that as a return to normal > manifestion of inflammation. > > Foods, drinks, and manner of cooking that increase facial flushing > are rosacea triggers, and avoiding them makes obvious sense. That's > not a food allergy, since allergies are stereotypic responses. > Allergic rashes can sometimes be difficult to diagnose, especially > when several rashes are present at the same time. But good allergists > can tell with only a glance what's an allergic reaction on the face > and what isn't. > > Thank you for your email, and I appreciate your letting me know about > your diet. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. hi matija, thanks for posting this response. you are following the type of diet and the proportions that i aspire to! i'm having trouble with the actual application of it you might say though. i do fine with the protein: i eat alot of salmon, catfish and albacore, some chicken and turkey. i do ok with the whole grains too. i have always eaten them, as opposed to white flours. now though i am steering clear of yeasted breads as they seem to cause some minor reactions. i eat oatmeal and brown rice regularly and am trying to incorporate other grains like quinoa into my day. where i have the most trouble is getting the 9-10 servings of fruits and veggies every day. it's hard for me to achieve every day for a couple reasons: 1)i have a limited repertoire of recipes and 2)i get sick of chopping them all every day. i have avoided doing alot of " bulk " chopping because i know that the nutrients can be destroyed easily. so the above is sort of a long prelude to asking you, could you share some of the ways you prepare vegetables? what is a typical days or even weeks menu for you? do you mostly steam them? do you juice? i believe you are the one that mentioned making a veggie soup and i somehow missed the recipe...would it be too much trouble to repost it? thank you very much! carrie ps: thank you by the way for the vbeam info. i'm going to email that doctor and see if she does have a bay area referral. i'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. hi matija, thanks for posting this response. you are following the type of diet and the proportions that i aspire to! i'm having trouble with the actual application of it you might say though. i do fine with the protein: i eat alot of salmon, catfish and albacore, some chicken and turkey. i do ok with the whole grains too. i have always eaten them, as opposed to white flours. now though i am steering clear of yeasted breads as they seem to cause some minor reactions. i eat oatmeal and brown rice regularly and am trying to incorporate other grains like quinoa into my day. where i have the most trouble is getting the 9-10 servings of fruits and veggies every day. it's hard for me to achieve every day for a couple reasons: 1)i have a limited repertoire of recipes and 2)i get sick of chopping them all every day. i have avoided doing alot of " bulk " chopping because i know that the nutrients can be destroyed easily. so the above is sort of a long prelude to asking you, could you share some of the ways you prepare vegetables? what is a typical days or even weeks menu for you? do you mostly steam them? do you juice? i believe you are the one that mentioned making a veggie soup and i somehow missed the recipe...would it be too much trouble to repost it? thank you very much! carrie ps: thank you by the way for the vbeam info. i'm going to email that doctor and see if she does have a bay area referral. i'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. hi matija, thanks for posting this response. you are following the type of diet and the proportions that i aspire to! i'm having trouble with the actual application of it you might say though. i do fine with the protein: i eat alot of salmon, catfish and albacore, some chicken and turkey. i do ok with the whole grains too. i have always eaten them, as opposed to white flours. now though i am steering clear of yeasted breads as they seem to cause some minor reactions. i eat oatmeal and brown rice regularly and am trying to incorporate other grains like quinoa into my day. where i have the most trouble is getting the 9-10 servings of fruits and veggies every day. it's hard for me to achieve every day for a couple reasons: 1)i have a limited repertoire of recipes and 2)i get sick of chopping them all every day. i have avoided doing alot of " bulk " chopping because i know that the nutrients can be destroyed easily. so the above is sort of a long prelude to asking you, could you share some of the ways you prepare vegetables? what is a typical days or even weeks menu for you? do you mostly steam them? do you juice? i believe you are the one that mentioned making a veggie soup and i somehow missed the recipe...would it be too much trouble to repost it? thank you very much! carrie ps: thank you by the way for the vbeam info. i'm going to email that doctor and see if she does have a bay area referral. i'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 > I was reading through your response below and was interested in > your saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases > general immune response. I know that following such a diet causes > ketosis. Were you referring to that? No, Matija, I wasn't. I don't believe immune modulating diets would be high protein, and I don't see how ketosis would be beneficial. They stay clear of sugars, but beyond that I can't help you with the specifics of immune modulating diets. Continuing on with your interesting post: you're right, there would be a clear difference between reacting to ingested histamine, and having an allergic reaction that involves a cascade of cellular and immune-mediated substances, one of which is release of intracellular histamine. The foods you describe as " natural dilator substances " or that release dilators after ingestion sound like they could trigger flares in sensitive rosaceans. But I'm not familiar with food allergies that only or predominately cause just facial flushing, which is how I understand the term " trigger. " (Allergies can cause rashes, but even if on the cheeks it's still an allergic rash, not a rosacea rash.) This is an area I don't know much about from a rosacea perspective, but I'll educate myself. Thanks for the information. Just so we're not confusing each other, neither food allergies nor histamine-releasing foods have anything to do with immune modulating diets. The latter is a diet that inadvertently or intentionally avoids the specific nutrients necessary to build or stimulate certain components of the immune system. Without them, the immune system has low amounts of key components and so it can't function normally -- and so can't mount a full inflammatory response. So mechanistically, immune modulating diets is unrelated to " food triggers, " although some avoided foods may coincidently be considered common triggers among rosaceans in this group. Regarding sugars, I may be cutting too fine a line, but I wouldn't intuitively think it helpful to make a global statement about sugar as a trigger. It's not like cold weather -- where, despite individual variability, it's relatively easy to standardize one's reaction from trigger to trigger. But with sugar, so much depends on a person's digestive and hormonal responses at the time of sugar ingestion, among many other factors. It's certainly true that under certain circumstances in many people ingesting sugar in a particular manner may result in many symptoms, including facial flushing, but -- and here's where the cutting may be too fine -- that entire series of events (the hyperglycemic reaction, or sugar high) would be the trigger, not the sugar. As a practical example: quickly drinking a Big Gulp bottle of Pepsi on an empty stomach could bring on a sugar high which for that person routinely includes facial flushing. But even if that person was an undiagnosed diabetic, taking a sip of Pepsi after a big meal isn't likely going to cause any hyperglycemic reaction, and a person with normal glycemic response may well tolerate that same Big Gulp for dessert without problems. And a person used to drinking Big Gulps would likely react differently to a particular bottle than someone who hasn't ingested sugar in a while. If we consider something like sugar a trigger, then aren't all great looking men/women triggers too? Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 > I was reading through your response below and was interested in > your saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases > general immune response. I know that following such a diet causes > ketosis. Were you referring to that? No, Matija, I wasn't. I don't believe immune modulating diets would be high protein, and I don't see how ketosis would be beneficial. They stay clear of sugars, but beyond that I can't help you with the specifics of immune modulating diets. Continuing on with your interesting post: you're right, there would be a clear difference between reacting to ingested histamine, and having an allergic reaction that involves a cascade of cellular and immune-mediated substances, one of which is release of intracellular histamine. The foods you describe as " natural dilator substances " or that release dilators after ingestion sound like they could trigger flares in sensitive rosaceans. But I'm not familiar with food allergies that only or predominately cause just facial flushing, which is how I understand the term " trigger. " (Allergies can cause rashes, but even if on the cheeks it's still an allergic rash, not a rosacea rash.) This is an area I don't know much about from a rosacea perspective, but I'll educate myself. Thanks for the information. Just so we're not confusing each other, neither food allergies nor histamine-releasing foods have anything to do with immune modulating diets. The latter is a diet that inadvertently or intentionally avoids the specific nutrients necessary to build or stimulate certain components of the immune system. Without them, the immune system has low amounts of key components and so it can't function normally -- and so can't mount a full inflammatory response. So mechanistically, immune modulating diets is unrelated to " food triggers, " although some avoided foods may coincidently be considered common triggers among rosaceans in this group. Regarding sugars, I may be cutting too fine a line, but I wouldn't intuitively think it helpful to make a global statement about sugar as a trigger. It's not like cold weather -- where, despite individual variability, it's relatively easy to standardize one's reaction from trigger to trigger. But with sugar, so much depends on a person's digestive and hormonal responses at the time of sugar ingestion, among many other factors. It's certainly true that under certain circumstances in many people ingesting sugar in a particular manner may result in many symptoms, including facial flushing, but -- and here's where the cutting may be too fine -- that entire series of events (the hyperglycemic reaction, or sugar high) would be the trigger, not the sugar. As a practical example: quickly drinking a Big Gulp bottle of Pepsi on an empty stomach could bring on a sugar high which for that person routinely includes facial flushing. But even if that person was an undiagnosed diabetic, taking a sip of Pepsi after a big meal isn't likely going to cause any hyperglycemic reaction, and a person with normal glycemic response may well tolerate that same Big Gulp for dessert without problems. And a person used to drinking Big Gulps would likely react differently to a particular bottle than someone who hasn't ingested sugar in a while. If we consider something like sugar a trigger, then aren't all great looking men/women triggers too? Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 > I was reading through your response below and was interested in > your saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases > general immune response. I know that following such a diet causes > ketosis. Were you referring to that? No, Matija, I wasn't. I don't believe immune modulating diets would be high protein, and I don't see how ketosis would be beneficial. They stay clear of sugars, but beyond that I can't help you with the specifics of immune modulating diets. Continuing on with your interesting post: you're right, there would be a clear difference between reacting to ingested histamine, and having an allergic reaction that involves a cascade of cellular and immune-mediated substances, one of which is release of intracellular histamine. The foods you describe as " natural dilator substances " or that release dilators after ingestion sound like they could trigger flares in sensitive rosaceans. But I'm not familiar with food allergies that only or predominately cause just facial flushing, which is how I understand the term " trigger. " (Allergies can cause rashes, but even if on the cheeks it's still an allergic rash, not a rosacea rash.) This is an area I don't know much about from a rosacea perspective, but I'll educate myself. Thanks for the information. Just so we're not confusing each other, neither food allergies nor histamine-releasing foods have anything to do with immune modulating diets. The latter is a diet that inadvertently or intentionally avoids the specific nutrients necessary to build or stimulate certain components of the immune system. Without them, the immune system has low amounts of key components and so it can't function normally -- and so can't mount a full inflammatory response. So mechanistically, immune modulating diets is unrelated to " food triggers, " although some avoided foods may coincidently be considered common triggers among rosaceans in this group. Regarding sugars, I may be cutting too fine a line, but I wouldn't intuitively think it helpful to make a global statement about sugar as a trigger. It's not like cold weather -- where, despite individual variability, it's relatively easy to standardize one's reaction from trigger to trigger. But with sugar, so much depends on a person's digestive and hormonal responses at the time of sugar ingestion, among many other factors. It's certainly true that under certain circumstances in many people ingesting sugar in a particular manner may result in many symptoms, including facial flushing, but -- and here's where the cutting may be too fine -- that entire series of events (the hyperglycemic reaction, or sugar high) would be the trigger, not the sugar. As a practical example: quickly drinking a Big Gulp bottle of Pepsi on an empty stomach could bring on a sugar high which for that person routinely includes facial flushing. But even if that person was an undiagnosed diabetic, taking a sip of Pepsi after a big meal isn't likely going to cause any hyperglycemic reaction, and a person with normal glycemic response may well tolerate that same Big Gulp for dessert without problems. And a person used to drinking Big Gulps would likely react differently to a particular bottle than someone who hasn't ingested sugar in a while. If we consider something like sugar a trigger, then aren't all great looking men/women triggers too? Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Dr. Lazoff, It is commendable how much time you spend with this group answering so many questions and helping us. I think I am not on the same page with you when it comes to defining triggers for rosacea. My understanding for rosacea triggers is what the NRS says, " Factors that may trigger rosacea flare ups, " [ see ----- http://rosacea.org/trip.html ] with the list of factors. The NRS nor medical authorities do not recognize sugar or a diet high in carbohydrates as a trigger factor. I am not discussing allergic reactions. I am saying that a trigger causes a rosacea flareup. I understand what you are saying about flushing, but I am talking about rosacea flareup triggers, not flushing alone. Flushing may or may not produce a rosacea flareup, correct? A rosacean can become embarrased and flush or blush and may not have a rosacea flareup, and obviously this may be a problem, but being embarrased is not a rosacea trigger. Are we on the same page? You concern about the " long term health effects if these diets work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just chronic inflammation " and assuming that the cea Diet is an " immune modulating diet " which may or not be true since it depends on what that means, is noteworthy, but as I said, I am not discussing allergens. I am discussing rosacea triggers that produce flareups. I am confused that an immune modulating diet causes a DECREASE in general immune system response. What are you talking about? Have you read Protein Power by Drs. Eades? Would you consider this diet an 'immune modulating diet' or the Sugar Busters! diet which is also written by three medical doctors? And I do appreciate your clarification on this. Again, thanks. Brady Barrows > (from brady) > >> There is enough evidence that a diet high in sugar and >> carbohydrates is a significant tripwire for rosacea even though the >> National cea Society does not recognize this, nor do medical >> authorities. However, one day a clinical study will prove this >> beyond doubt, if someone with the credentials who has money, power >> and courage will objectively investigate this. The >> cea Diet Users Support Group gives enough evidence of this. >> Most rosaceans do not want to change their diet lifestyle, but >> prefer pills, topical treatments, IPL, and any treatment allowing >> them to keep eating and drinking their current food and drink, so >> this does not appeal to the vast majority of rosaceans. But, you >> may be interested in researching this yourself. > > I don't know about your diet in particular, Brady -- please let me > know if I'm missing something -- but in general the relationship > between diet and the immune system is fairly well documented in the > medical literature, both as a way of modulating the inflammatory > response and in the area of food allergens. > > While certainly effective in decreasing chronic inflammation like > rosacea, immune modulating diets (that strongly limit sugars, among > other things) are notoriously difficult to stay on. ly, it's > also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets > work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just > chronic inflammation. > > A person on an immune modulating diet who eats chocolate, for > example, may well experience increased inflammation, but I wouldn't > call that a rosacea trigger. I would view that as a return to normal > manifestion of inflammation. > > Foods, drinks, and manner of cooking that increase facial flushing > are rosacea triggers, and avoiding them makes obvious sense. That's > not a food allergy, since allergies are stereotypic responses. > Allergic rashes can sometimes be difficult to diagnose, especially > when several rashes are present at the same time. But good allergists > can tell with only a glance what's an allergic reaction on the face > and what isn't. > > Thank you for your email, and I appreciate your letting me know about > your diet. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group > (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you > don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must > change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support- > unsubscribe > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Dr. Lazoff, It is commendable how much time you spend with this group answering so many questions and helping us. I think I am not on the same page with you when it comes to defining triggers for rosacea. My understanding for rosacea triggers is what the NRS says, " Factors that may trigger rosacea flare ups, " [ see ----- http://rosacea.org/trip.html ] with the list of factors. The NRS nor medical authorities do not recognize sugar or a diet high in carbohydrates as a trigger factor. I am not discussing allergic reactions. I am saying that a trigger causes a rosacea flareup. I understand what you are saying about flushing, but I am talking about rosacea flareup triggers, not flushing alone. Flushing may or may not produce a rosacea flareup, correct? A rosacean can become embarrased and flush or blush and may not have a rosacea flareup, and obviously this may be a problem, but being embarrased is not a rosacea trigger. Are we on the same page? You concern about the " long term health effects if these diets work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just chronic inflammation " and assuming that the cea Diet is an " immune modulating diet " which may or not be true since it depends on what that means, is noteworthy, but as I said, I am not discussing allergens. I am discussing rosacea triggers that produce flareups. I am confused that an immune modulating diet causes a DECREASE in general immune system response. What are you talking about? Have you read Protein Power by Drs. Eades? Would you consider this diet an 'immune modulating diet' or the Sugar Busters! diet which is also written by three medical doctors? And I do appreciate your clarification on this. Again, thanks. Brady Barrows > (from brady) > >> There is enough evidence that a diet high in sugar and >> carbohydrates is a significant tripwire for rosacea even though the >> National cea Society does not recognize this, nor do medical >> authorities. However, one day a clinical study will prove this >> beyond doubt, if someone with the credentials who has money, power >> and courage will objectively investigate this. The >> cea Diet Users Support Group gives enough evidence of this. >> Most rosaceans do not want to change their diet lifestyle, but >> prefer pills, topical treatments, IPL, and any treatment allowing >> them to keep eating and drinking their current food and drink, so >> this does not appeal to the vast majority of rosaceans. But, you >> may be interested in researching this yourself. > > I don't know about your diet in particular, Brady -- please let me > know if I'm missing something -- but in general the relationship > between diet and the immune system is fairly well documented in the > medical literature, both as a way of modulating the inflammatory > response and in the area of food allergens. > > While certainly effective in decreasing chronic inflammation like > rosacea, immune modulating diets (that strongly limit sugars, among > other things) are notoriously difficult to stay on. ly, it's > also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets > work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just > chronic inflammation. > > A person on an immune modulating diet who eats chocolate, for > example, may well experience increased inflammation, but I wouldn't > call that a rosacea trigger. I would view that as a return to normal > manifestion of inflammation. > > Foods, drinks, and manner of cooking that increase facial flushing > are rosacea triggers, and avoiding them makes obvious sense. That's > not a food allergy, since allergies are stereotypic responses. > Allergic rashes can sometimes be difficult to diagnose, especially > when several rashes are present at the same time. But good allergists > can tell with only a glance what's an allergic reaction on the face > and what isn't. > > Thank you for your email, and I appreciate your letting me know about > your diet. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group > (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you > don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must > change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support- > unsubscribe > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Dr. Lazoff, It is commendable how much time you spend with this group answering so many questions and helping us. I think I am not on the same page with you when it comes to defining triggers for rosacea. My understanding for rosacea triggers is what the NRS says, " Factors that may trigger rosacea flare ups, " [ see ----- http://rosacea.org/trip.html ] with the list of factors. The NRS nor medical authorities do not recognize sugar or a diet high in carbohydrates as a trigger factor. I am not discussing allergic reactions. I am saying that a trigger causes a rosacea flareup. I understand what you are saying about flushing, but I am talking about rosacea flareup triggers, not flushing alone. Flushing may or may not produce a rosacea flareup, correct? A rosacean can become embarrased and flush or blush and may not have a rosacea flareup, and obviously this may be a problem, but being embarrased is not a rosacea trigger. Are we on the same page? You concern about the " long term health effects if these diets work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just chronic inflammation " and assuming that the cea Diet is an " immune modulating diet " which may or not be true since it depends on what that means, is noteworthy, but as I said, I am not discussing allergens. I am discussing rosacea triggers that produce flareups. I am confused that an immune modulating diet causes a DECREASE in general immune system response. What are you talking about? Have you read Protein Power by Drs. Eades? Would you consider this diet an 'immune modulating diet' or the Sugar Busters! diet which is also written by three medical doctors? And I do appreciate your clarification on this. Again, thanks. Brady Barrows > (from brady) > >> There is enough evidence that a diet high in sugar and >> carbohydrates is a significant tripwire for rosacea even though the >> National cea Society does not recognize this, nor do medical >> authorities. However, one day a clinical study will prove this >> beyond doubt, if someone with the credentials who has money, power >> and courage will objectively investigate this. The >> cea Diet Users Support Group gives enough evidence of this. >> Most rosaceans do not want to change their diet lifestyle, but >> prefer pills, topical treatments, IPL, and any treatment allowing >> them to keep eating and drinking their current food and drink, so >> this does not appeal to the vast majority of rosaceans. But, you >> may be interested in researching this yourself. > > I don't know about your diet in particular, Brady -- please let me > know if I'm missing something -- but in general the relationship > between diet and the immune system is fairly well documented in the > medical literature, both as a way of modulating the inflammatory > response and in the area of food allergens. > > While certainly effective in decreasing chronic inflammation like > rosacea, immune modulating diets (that strongly limit sugars, among > other things) are notoriously difficult to stay on. ly, it's > also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets > work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just > chronic inflammation. > > A person on an immune modulating diet who eats chocolate, for > example, may well experience increased inflammation, but I wouldn't > call that a rosacea trigger. I would view that as a return to normal > manifestion of inflammation. > > Foods, drinks, and manner of cooking that increase facial flushing > are rosacea triggers, and avoiding them makes obvious sense. That's > not a food allergy, since allergies are stereotypic responses. > Allergic rashes can sometimes be difficult to diagnose, especially > when several rashes are present at the same time. But good allergists > can tell with only a glance what's an allergic reaction on the face > and what isn't. > > Thank you for your email, and I appreciate your letting me know about > your diet. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group > (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you > don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must > change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support- > unsubscribe > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Hi , Here is the link to the soup recipe that I gave out a month ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/message/35766 It is a pain to chop all those veggies, especially after a long day at work. I usually chop the onions, garlic, red bell pepper and kale. For the broccoli and cauliflower, I buy chopped veggies from the store. I usually buy them from Trader Joe's (they have them in plastic bags) or I buy them loose from my local Safeway store. The broccoli and cauliflower are the hardest to clean and chop up, so I rely on those chopped veggies. Personally, I don't notice a difference in my skin between the chopped veggies and the cauliflower head or bunch of broccoli. I don't use frozen veggies as they don't have the same calming effect on my skin. I eat this soup every day. I do vary the veggies, but I try to get at least two-three servings of cruciferous veggies in the soup. I like it better than steaming. My parents juice veggies, and they'll make some for me when I come over, but it's too much work to do for me. I mainly rely on the soup. Also, I eat carrot sticks for lunch. For breakfast, I eat two servings of oatmeal (1 cup dry) with 1/2 cup of applesauce, about 15 dried cherries (from Trader Joe's), and a cup of milk. I also take a tablespoon of olive oil. For lunch, I'll have 1 cup of cottage cheese, carrot sticks, two slices of bread (yeast in bread doesn't bother me), and 1.5 ounce box of raisins. I also mix a tablespoon of olive oil with the cottage cheese. If I don't do that, I'll eat about 20 almonds. For dinner, I'll have 4 ounces of salmon or chicken or beef, the soup, a tablespoon of olive oil mixed with one cup of brown rice. I have dessert two to three times a week. I eat a serving of cheesecake, cream puff, piece of cake, or a serving of ice cream. That's basically it. I do eat bean dishes to substitute for my protein in the evening and will have leftover bean dishes for lunch. I hope that helps! Take care, Matija > > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. > > hi matija, > > thanks for posting this response. you are following the type of diet and the > proportions that i aspire to! i'm having trouble with the actual application > of it you might say though. i do fine with the protein: i eat alot of > salmon, catfish and albacore, some chicken and turkey. i do ok with the > whole grains too. i have always eaten them, as opposed to white flours. now > though i am steering clear of yeasted breads as they seem to cause some > minor reactions. i eat oatmeal and brown rice regularly and am trying to > incorporate other grains like quinoa into my day. where i have the most > trouble is getting the 9-10 servings of fruits and veggies every day. it's > hard for me to achieve every day for a couple reasons: 1)i have a limited > repertoire of recipes and 2)i get sick of chopping them all every day. i > have avoided doing alot of " bulk " chopping because i know that the nutrients > can be destroyed easily. > > so the above is sort of a long prelude to asking you, could you share some > of the ways you prepare vegetables? what is a typical days or even weeks > menu for you? do you mostly steam them? do you juice? i believe you are the > one that mentioned making a veggie soup and i somehow missed the > recipe...would it be too much trouble to repost it? > > thank you very much! > > carrie > > ps: thank you by the way for the vbeam info. i'm going to email that doctor > and see if she does have a bay area referral. i'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Hi , Here is the link to the soup recipe that I gave out a month ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/message/35766 It is a pain to chop all those veggies, especially after a long day at work. I usually chop the onions, garlic, red bell pepper and kale. For the broccoli and cauliflower, I buy chopped veggies from the store. I usually buy them from Trader Joe's (they have them in plastic bags) or I buy them loose from my local Safeway store. The broccoli and cauliflower are the hardest to clean and chop up, so I rely on those chopped veggies. Personally, I don't notice a difference in my skin between the chopped veggies and the cauliflower head or bunch of broccoli. I don't use frozen veggies as they don't have the same calming effect on my skin. I eat this soup every day. I do vary the veggies, but I try to get at least two-three servings of cruciferous veggies in the soup. I like it better than steaming. My parents juice veggies, and they'll make some for me when I come over, but it's too much work to do for me. I mainly rely on the soup. Also, I eat carrot sticks for lunch. For breakfast, I eat two servings of oatmeal (1 cup dry) with 1/2 cup of applesauce, about 15 dried cherries (from Trader Joe's), and a cup of milk. I also take a tablespoon of olive oil. For lunch, I'll have 1 cup of cottage cheese, carrot sticks, two slices of bread (yeast in bread doesn't bother me), and 1.5 ounce box of raisins. I also mix a tablespoon of olive oil with the cottage cheese. If I don't do that, I'll eat about 20 almonds. For dinner, I'll have 4 ounces of salmon or chicken or beef, the soup, a tablespoon of olive oil mixed with one cup of brown rice. I have dessert two to three times a week. I eat a serving of cheesecake, cream puff, piece of cake, or a serving of ice cream. That's basically it. I do eat bean dishes to substitute for my protein in the evening and will have leftover bean dishes for lunch. I hope that helps! Take care, Matija > > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. > > hi matija, > > thanks for posting this response. you are following the type of diet and the > proportions that i aspire to! i'm having trouble with the actual application > of it you might say though. i do fine with the protein: i eat alot of > salmon, catfish and albacore, some chicken and turkey. i do ok with the > whole grains too. i have always eaten them, as opposed to white flours. now > though i am steering clear of yeasted breads as they seem to cause some > minor reactions. i eat oatmeal and brown rice regularly and am trying to > incorporate other grains like quinoa into my day. where i have the most > trouble is getting the 9-10 servings of fruits and veggies every day. it's > hard for me to achieve every day for a couple reasons: 1)i have a limited > repertoire of recipes and 2)i get sick of chopping them all every day. i > have avoided doing alot of " bulk " chopping because i know that the nutrients > can be destroyed easily. > > so the above is sort of a long prelude to asking you, could you share some > of the ways you prepare vegetables? what is a typical days or even weeks > menu for you? do you mostly steam them? do you juice? i believe you are the > one that mentioned making a veggie soup and i somehow missed the > recipe...would it be too much trouble to repost it? > > thank you very much! > > carrie > > ps: thank you by the way for the vbeam info. i'm going to email that doctor > and see if she does have a bay area referral. i'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Hi , Here is the link to the soup recipe that I gave out a month ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/message/35766 It is a pain to chop all those veggies, especially after a long day at work. I usually chop the onions, garlic, red bell pepper and kale. For the broccoli and cauliflower, I buy chopped veggies from the store. I usually buy them from Trader Joe's (they have them in plastic bags) or I buy them loose from my local Safeway store. The broccoli and cauliflower are the hardest to clean and chop up, so I rely on those chopped veggies. Personally, I don't notice a difference in my skin between the chopped veggies and the cauliflower head or bunch of broccoli. I don't use frozen veggies as they don't have the same calming effect on my skin. I eat this soup every day. I do vary the veggies, but I try to get at least two-three servings of cruciferous veggies in the soup. I like it better than steaming. My parents juice veggies, and they'll make some for me when I come over, but it's too much work to do for me. I mainly rely on the soup. Also, I eat carrot sticks for lunch. For breakfast, I eat two servings of oatmeal (1 cup dry) with 1/2 cup of applesauce, about 15 dried cherries (from Trader Joe's), and a cup of milk. I also take a tablespoon of olive oil. For lunch, I'll have 1 cup of cottage cheese, carrot sticks, two slices of bread (yeast in bread doesn't bother me), and 1.5 ounce box of raisins. I also mix a tablespoon of olive oil with the cottage cheese. If I don't do that, I'll eat about 20 almonds. For dinner, I'll have 4 ounces of salmon or chicken or beef, the soup, a tablespoon of olive oil mixed with one cup of brown rice. I have dessert two to three times a week. I eat a serving of cheesecake, cream puff, piece of cake, or a serving of ice cream. That's basically it. I do eat bean dishes to substitute for my protein in the evening and will have leftover bean dishes for lunch. I hope that helps! Take care, Matija > > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. > > hi matija, > > thanks for posting this response. you are following the type of diet and the > proportions that i aspire to! i'm having trouble with the actual application > of it you might say though. i do fine with the protein: i eat alot of > salmon, catfish and albacore, some chicken and turkey. i do ok with the > whole grains too. i have always eaten them, as opposed to white flours. now > though i am steering clear of yeasted breads as they seem to cause some > minor reactions. i eat oatmeal and brown rice regularly and am trying to > incorporate other grains like quinoa into my day. where i have the most > trouble is getting the 9-10 servings of fruits and veggies every day. it's > hard for me to achieve every day for a couple reasons: 1)i have a limited > repertoire of recipes and 2)i get sick of chopping them all every day. i > have avoided doing alot of " bulk " chopping because i know that the nutrients > can be destroyed easily. > > so the above is sort of a long prelude to asking you, could you share some > of the ways you prepare vegetables? what is a typical days or even weeks > menu for you? do you mostly steam them? do you juice? i believe you are the > one that mentioned making a veggie soup and i somehow missed the > recipe...would it be too much trouble to repost it? > > thank you very much! > > carrie > > ps: thank you by the way for the vbeam info. i'm going to email that doctor > and see if she does have a bay area referral. i'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 This is from Matija, who intended it as a public post: -=-=-=-=-= Hi Dr. Lazoff, I think you misunderstood the first part of my message, and perhaps were speaking to Brady's cea Diet rather than what type of eating plan I'm following, which I laid out in my message. I believe Brady's diet is extremely low in carbs - perhaps less than 50 mg. a day (equivalent to two slices of bread). I don't think this is healthy because of the possibility of ketosis (which I think happened to me) and, of course, the loss of nutrients from eating complex carbohydrates. I assumed that the loss of nutrients was the long term harm you were talking about here: " ly, it's also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just chronic inflammation. I simply wanted to see if you thought ketosis would also decrease general immune response. As I said in my previous message, I foolishly tried an extremely low carb diet a few years ago and got symptoms of ketosis. It was horrible, and I don't believe at all that this would be a benefit to overall health much less rosacea. I thought I made that clear in my previous message. I'm sorry if I didn't. I would never encourage anyone to try an extremely low carbohydrate diet. It's bad for health. The eating plan I eat is based on the FDA's food pyramid. I am very concerned with increasing the strength of my immune system in a healthy and balanced way. As well, I have lots of type II diabetes in my immediate family and wanted to see if I could help avoid getting that in the future. I've read a book called, " Eat, Drink and Be Healthy " by Walter C. Willett, MD, MPH, who is chair of the Dept. of Nutrition at the Harvard U. School of Public Health and a professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. In a nutshell, he believes that getting eating too many simple carbohydrates and those complex carbohydrates which have a high glycemic load, like potatoes, may lead those who are susceptible to type II diabetes to develop the disease. He advocates at least six servings of whole grains daily like brown rice, buckwheat, millet, whole wheat, etc., and those veggies lower on the gylcemic load, like carrots and sweet potatoes, to maintain healthy blood sugar. According to his research, eating whole grain foods and eating low glycemic load vegetables have nutrients that can help forestall the development of type II diabetes. Here is some information about this from Dr. Willett: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press021197.html Also, here is a simple explanation of glycemic index vs. glycemic load (I believe the sugar busters diet goes by glycemic index. Dr. Willett explains the difference in his book, but it is more involved and too long to type!): http://www.drmirkin.com/nutrition/9566.html Anyway, the type of eating plan recommended by Dr. Willett is very much unlike the cea Diet of Brady B. I don't think any MD would recommend it, except for Dr. Atkins. I did notice that eating like Dr. Willett's suggests did reduce my fatigue and did make my skin less prone to flares. I don't know what the relationship is with rosacea though. This may not hold true for some people, but it seems to hold true for me. I might be undergoing the placebo effect for rosacea. If it is, at least I'm helping to stave off the development of Type II diabetes in the process. Personally, I don't think sugar is a trigger in and of itself. I eat desserts two to three times a week. I would think I'd get a flare and bumps from that if I did. When I eat a trigger food like peanuts or vinegar or caffeine once, I'd get a flare pretty much within an hour of two of eating it. There is another process going here with me if I eat sugar like I did before -- half a cup a day -- I estimate. I was quoting Dr. Nase regarding, histamine-releasing foods, food allergies and large amounts of sugar. As I said in my previous message, I think food allergies can happen in an individual, but is rare. I think most people with rosacea who react to histamine- releasing foods with flares and bumps do so like described in page 101 of Dr. Nase's book. I don't know the process of flares for food allergies. I don't have food allergies. I imagine it incorporates the release of IgE after eating the food one is allergic to. I really don't know. I imagine that the reaction after eating a food a person is allergic too would have other symptoms such as diarrhea, rashes on other parts of the skin, swollen lips, throat, tongue, etc. Some people with rosacea do not react to any foods at all. Certainly, food triggers are not universal with rosaceans. About Dr. Nase, I don't know if you read over the archives, but he has a Ph.D. in Microvascular Biology and works at Indiana University performing vascular research. He also has rosacea. He wrote a book on it that many of us have. He's also published in medical journals. It's available at http://www.drnase.com . I believe his CV is on the site. With your background, it would be interesting to see what your thoughts on the book are. Dr. Nase also posted many extremely helpful suggestions on how to combat rosacea in message on our board. Please read through the archives and you'll see them. Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure that I correctly said the difference between my eating plan and that of Brady. Take care, Matija Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 This is from Matija, who intended it as a public post: -=-=-=-=-= Hi Dr. Lazoff, I think you misunderstood the first part of my message, and perhaps were speaking to Brady's cea Diet rather than what type of eating plan I'm following, which I laid out in my message. I believe Brady's diet is extremely low in carbs - perhaps less than 50 mg. a day (equivalent to two slices of bread). I don't think this is healthy because of the possibility of ketosis (which I think happened to me) and, of course, the loss of nutrients from eating complex carbohydrates. I assumed that the loss of nutrients was the long term harm you were talking about here: " ly, it's also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just chronic inflammation. I simply wanted to see if you thought ketosis would also decrease general immune response. As I said in my previous message, I foolishly tried an extremely low carb diet a few years ago and got symptoms of ketosis. It was horrible, and I don't believe at all that this would be a benefit to overall health much less rosacea. I thought I made that clear in my previous message. I'm sorry if I didn't. I would never encourage anyone to try an extremely low carbohydrate diet. It's bad for health. The eating plan I eat is based on the FDA's food pyramid. I am very concerned with increasing the strength of my immune system in a healthy and balanced way. As well, I have lots of type II diabetes in my immediate family and wanted to see if I could help avoid getting that in the future. I've read a book called, " Eat, Drink and Be Healthy " by Walter C. Willett, MD, MPH, who is chair of the Dept. of Nutrition at the Harvard U. School of Public Health and a professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. In a nutshell, he believes that getting eating too many simple carbohydrates and those complex carbohydrates which have a high glycemic load, like potatoes, may lead those who are susceptible to type II diabetes to develop the disease. He advocates at least six servings of whole grains daily like brown rice, buckwheat, millet, whole wheat, etc., and those veggies lower on the gylcemic load, like carrots and sweet potatoes, to maintain healthy blood sugar. According to his research, eating whole grain foods and eating low glycemic load vegetables have nutrients that can help forestall the development of type II diabetes. Here is some information about this from Dr. Willett: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press021197.html Also, here is a simple explanation of glycemic index vs. glycemic load (I believe the sugar busters diet goes by glycemic index. Dr. Willett explains the difference in his book, but it is more involved and too long to type!): http://www.drmirkin.com/nutrition/9566.html Anyway, the type of eating plan recommended by Dr. Willett is very much unlike the cea Diet of Brady B. I don't think any MD would recommend it, except for Dr. Atkins. I did notice that eating like Dr. Willett's suggests did reduce my fatigue and did make my skin less prone to flares. I don't know what the relationship is with rosacea though. This may not hold true for some people, but it seems to hold true for me. I might be undergoing the placebo effect for rosacea. If it is, at least I'm helping to stave off the development of Type II diabetes in the process. Personally, I don't think sugar is a trigger in and of itself. I eat desserts two to three times a week. I would think I'd get a flare and bumps from that if I did. When I eat a trigger food like peanuts or vinegar or caffeine once, I'd get a flare pretty much within an hour of two of eating it. There is another process going here with me if I eat sugar like I did before -- half a cup a day -- I estimate. I was quoting Dr. Nase regarding, histamine-releasing foods, food allergies and large amounts of sugar. As I said in my previous message, I think food allergies can happen in an individual, but is rare. I think most people with rosacea who react to histamine- releasing foods with flares and bumps do so like described in page 101 of Dr. Nase's book. I don't know the process of flares for food allergies. I don't have food allergies. I imagine it incorporates the release of IgE after eating the food one is allergic to. I really don't know. I imagine that the reaction after eating a food a person is allergic too would have other symptoms such as diarrhea, rashes on other parts of the skin, swollen lips, throat, tongue, etc. Some people with rosacea do not react to any foods at all. Certainly, food triggers are not universal with rosaceans. About Dr. Nase, I don't know if you read over the archives, but he has a Ph.D. in Microvascular Biology and works at Indiana University performing vascular research. He also has rosacea. He wrote a book on it that many of us have. He's also published in medical journals. It's available at http://www.drnase.com . I believe his CV is on the site. With your background, it would be interesting to see what your thoughts on the book are. Dr. Nase also posted many extremely helpful suggestions on how to combat rosacea in message on our board. Please read through the archives and you'll see them. Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure that I correctly said the difference between my eating plan and that of Brady. Take care, Matija Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 This is from Matija, who intended it as a public post: -=-=-=-=-= Hi Dr. Lazoff, I think you misunderstood the first part of my message, and perhaps were speaking to Brady's cea Diet rather than what type of eating plan I'm following, which I laid out in my message. I believe Brady's diet is extremely low in carbs - perhaps less than 50 mg. a day (equivalent to two slices of bread). I don't think this is healthy because of the possibility of ketosis (which I think happened to me) and, of course, the loss of nutrients from eating complex carbohydrates. I assumed that the loss of nutrients was the long term harm you were talking about here: " ly, it's also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just chronic inflammation. I simply wanted to see if you thought ketosis would also decrease general immune response. As I said in my previous message, I foolishly tried an extremely low carb diet a few years ago and got symptoms of ketosis. It was horrible, and I don't believe at all that this would be a benefit to overall health much less rosacea. I thought I made that clear in my previous message. I'm sorry if I didn't. I would never encourage anyone to try an extremely low carbohydrate diet. It's bad for health. The eating plan I eat is based on the FDA's food pyramid. I am very concerned with increasing the strength of my immune system in a healthy and balanced way. As well, I have lots of type II diabetes in my immediate family and wanted to see if I could help avoid getting that in the future. I've read a book called, " Eat, Drink and Be Healthy " by Walter C. Willett, MD, MPH, who is chair of the Dept. of Nutrition at the Harvard U. School of Public Health and a professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. In a nutshell, he believes that getting eating too many simple carbohydrates and those complex carbohydrates which have a high glycemic load, like potatoes, may lead those who are susceptible to type II diabetes to develop the disease. He advocates at least six servings of whole grains daily like brown rice, buckwheat, millet, whole wheat, etc., and those veggies lower on the gylcemic load, like carrots and sweet potatoes, to maintain healthy blood sugar. According to his research, eating whole grain foods and eating low glycemic load vegetables have nutrients that can help forestall the development of type II diabetes. Here is some information about this from Dr. Willett: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press021197.html Also, here is a simple explanation of glycemic index vs. glycemic load (I believe the sugar busters diet goes by glycemic index. Dr. Willett explains the difference in his book, but it is more involved and too long to type!): http://www.drmirkin.com/nutrition/9566.html Anyway, the type of eating plan recommended by Dr. Willett is very much unlike the cea Diet of Brady B. I don't think any MD would recommend it, except for Dr. Atkins. I did notice that eating like Dr. Willett's suggests did reduce my fatigue and did make my skin less prone to flares. I don't know what the relationship is with rosacea though. This may not hold true for some people, but it seems to hold true for me. I might be undergoing the placebo effect for rosacea. If it is, at least I'm helping to stave off the development of Type II diabetes in the process. Personally, I don't think sugar is a trigger in and of itself. I eat desserts two to three times a week. I would think I'd get a flare and bumps from that if I did. When I eat a trigger food like peanuts or vinegar or caffeine once, I'd get a flare pretty much within an hour of two of eating it. There is another process going here with me if I eat sugar like I did before -- half a cup a day -- I estimate. I was quoting Dr. Nase regarding, histamine-releasing foods, food allergies and large amounts of sugar. As I said in my previous message, I think food allergies can happen in an individual, but is rare. I think most people with rosacea who react to histamine- releasing foods with flares and bumps do so like described in page 101 of Dr. Nase's book. I don't know the process of flares for food allergies. I don't have food allergies. I imagine it incorporates the release of IgE after eating the food one is allergic to. I really don't know. I imagine that the reaction after eating a food a person is allergic too would have other symptoms such as diarrhea, rashes on other parts of the skin, swollen lips, throat, tongue, etc. Some people with rosacea do not react to any foods at all. Certainly, food triggers are not universal with rosaceans. About Dr. Nase, I don't know if you read over the archives, but he has a Ph.D. in Microvascular Biology and works at Indiana University performing vascular research. He also has rosacea. He wrote a book on it that many of us have. He's also published in medical journals. It's available at http://www.drnase.com . I believe his CV is on the site. With your background, it would be interesting to see what your thoughts on the book are. Dr. Nase also posted many extremely helpful suggestions on how to combat rosacea in message on our board. Please read through the archives and you'll see them. Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to make sure that I correctly said the difference between my eating plan and that of Brady. Take care, Matija Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 i would be interested in trying the soup that has been mentioned as part of the rosacea diet-could someone please tell me where i might find it-or better yet-could someone just show it in your response to this post? thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 i would be interested in trying the soup that has been mentioned as part of the rosacea diet-could someone please tell me where i might find it-or better yet-could someone just show it in your response to this post? thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > How about not worrying about what other people > understand or don't? Post an opinion, offer a > suggestion, detail an experience, clue other > members into an interesting article, development, > whatever, ask questions that you are dealing with > or answer a question and leave it at that. I agree, there's lots of helpful information here, and I too appreciate the free flow of ideas and experiences (and hope that I've been contributing to it). But I too feel the anti-science bias operating here -- by that, I mean facts and theories and personal experience are expressed as if one and the same, without distinction. I do worry about what others understand or don't from my words, even when discussing health care with those who aren't my patients (though obviously without the responsibility that entails in real life). Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > How about not worrying about what other people > understand or don't? Post an opinion, offer a > suggestion, detail an experience, clue other > members into an interesting article, development, > whatever, ask questions that you are dealing with > or answer a question and leave it at that. I agree, there's lots of helpful information here, and I too appreciate the free flow of ideas and experiences (and hope that I've been contributing to it). But I too feel the anti-science bias operating here -- by that, I mean facts and theories and personal experience are expressed as if one and the same, without distinction. I do worry about what others understand or don't from my words, even when discussing health care with those who aren't my patients (though obviously without the responsibility that entails in real life). Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > How about not worrying about what other people > understand or don't? Post an opinion, offer a > suggestion, detail an experience, clue other > members into an interesting article, development, > whatever, ask questions that you are dealing with > or answer a question and leave it at that. I agree, there's lots of helpful information here, and I too appreciate the free flow of ideas and experiences (and hope that I've been contributing to it). But I too feel the anti-science bias operating here -- by that, I mean facts and theories and personal experience are expressed as if one and the same, without distinction. I do worry about what others understand or don't from my words, even when discussing health care with those who aren't my patients (though obviously without the responsibility that entails in real life). Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 A big fat " amen " to that! Conventional medicine has done next to nothing for this condition. I certainly appreciate the doctor's contributions to this board and she is definitely an asset to this board, but the other anecdotal information is equally valued. > > > > It's hard to discuss beliefs that are based > > on gut feelings or > > > personal experience, because even when > > everyone is thoughtful and > > > polite it can feel hurtful when others don't > > validate those > > beliefs. > > Discussing personal experiences and feelings are > a large part of the discussion on this list. It's > not hard for me and it's not my impression that > it is hard for others here on the list either. to > restate once again, it's a big part of why I am > part of this group. > > > > That goes for me as well -- my beliefs are > > based on what I've > > > experienced in science and medicine, so it's > > hard for me to > > > understand others who don't prioritize > > factual information or > > logical > > > deduction as a basis for knowledge. It's not > > the only kind of > > > knowledge, of course, but we're discussing > > here real things in the > > > material world. But I know many people don't. > > this comment comes across as very condescending > and arrogant. is it appropriate here? I'm not > sure...how do you propose to know how other list > members prioritize information? > > > > Humans are by nature imaginative beings, and > > a few isolated facts > > and > > > unexplained connections can sometimes take > > our imagination to > > > insightful ventures, though not always. I'm > > in an email discussion > > > group where sometimes we talk about > > conspiracy theories for fun, > > but > > > I know there are people in the group who > > seriously believe them. (I > > > always tease them extra hard. ) Some of > > what gets posted here > > > reminds me of that kind of creative energy, > > though of course this > > > topic is very serious to many people here. > > to this I would say thanks for your opinion on > imagination and it's place in the world, but is > this tack appropriate for this list? go ahead and > state your opinion, but making some sort of > connection between your personal views and the > views you assume people on this list have, are > not really your business nor of course are they > necessarily correct. > > > > you specifically, I hope you know that. It's > > my way -- I enjoy e- > > > groups, but it's not a comfortable medium for > > me as a physician, > > > there's so much potential for > > misunderstanding, in all directions, > > > and worse if I make personal replies. And I > > don't always have the > > > free time I've had the past few days. > > How about not worrying about what other people > understand or don't? Post an opinion, offer a > suggestion, detail an experience, clue other > members into an interesting article, development, > whatever, ask questions that you are dealing with > or answer a question and leave it at that. > > No one has to justify themselves here and > everyone on the list is free to take or leave > whatever information they may come across. > > > > It's nice to know that your diet works so > > well for you. > > > > > > Marjorie > > > > > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > thanks, > > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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