Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

[Guest guest]

> My suggestion would to be trying

> cutting out starchy foods. Bread,

> rice, potatoes, noodles, etc.

There is no need to cut anything

like that out, Bruce. In reasonable

quantities, and with proper

treatment, they won't do any harm.

> You can eat meat, non-starchy

> vegetables (especially cruciates

> [cabbage, kale, broccoli, endive,

> Brussels sprouts, etc.]), and

> small amounts of raw fruits

> (especially berries) with the skin

> on.

The amount of raw fruit does not

need to be all that small but I

am not so sure about eating the

skin - that is where most of the

pesticide settles in!

> It goes without saying that candy

> and sweets are out.

Once again, it is a matter of being

moderate. You seem to be taking an

all-or-nothing approach to diabetes,

Bruce! Not everybody is going to

agree with you there.

[Guest guest]

> My suggestion would to be trying

> cutting out starchy foods. Bread,

> rice, potatoes, noodles, etc.

There is no need to cut anything

like that out, Bruce. In reasonable

quantities, and with proper

treatment, they won't do any harm.

> You can eat meat, non-starchy

> vegetables (especially cruciates

> [cabbage, kale, broccoli, endive,

> Brussels sprouts, etc.]), and

> small amounts of raw fruits

> (especially berries) with the skin

> on.

The amount of raw fruit does not

need to be all that small but I

am not so sure about eating the

skin - that is where most of the

pesticide settles in!

> It goes without saying that candy

> and sweets are out.

Once again, it is a matter of being

moderate. You seem to be taking an

all-or-nothing approach to diabetes,

Bruce! Not everybody is going to

agree with you there.

[Guest guest]

> My suggestion would to be trying

> cutting out starchy foods. Bread,

> rice, potatoes, noodles, etc.

There is no need to cut anything

like that out, Bruce. In reasonable

quantities, and with proper

treatment, they won't do any harm.

> You can eat meat, non-starchy

> vegetables (especially cruciates

> [cabbage, kale, broccoli, endive,

> Brussels sprouts, etc.]), and

> small amounts of raw fruits

> (especially berries) with the skin

> on.

The amount of raw fruit does not

need to be all that small but I

am not so sure about eating the

skin - that is where most of the

pesticide settles in!

> It goes without saying that candy

> and sweets are out.

Once again, it is a matter of being

moderate. You seem to be taking an

all-or-nothing approach to diabetes,

Bruce! Not everybody is going to

agree with you there.

[Guest guest]

[alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

The amount of raw fruit does not

need to be all that small but I

am not so sure about eating the

skin - that is where most of the

pesticide settles in!

[, Bruce] That is why we WASH our fruit before eating it. The skin is

where most of the fiber is.

See " DR. BERNSTEIN'S DIABETES SOLUTION " .

[, Bruce]

[Guest guest]

[alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

The amount of raw fruit does not

need to be all that small but I

am not so sure about eating the

skin - that is where most of the

pesticide settles in!

[, Bruce] That is why we WASH our fruit before eating it. The skin is

where most of the fiber is.

See " DR. BERNSTEIN'S DIABETES SOLUTION " .

[, Bruce]

[Guest guest]

[alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

The amount of raw fruit does not

need to be all that small but I

am not so sure about eating the

skin - that is where most of the

pesticide settles in!

[, Bruce] That is why we WASH our fruit before eating it. The skin is

where most of the fiber is.

See " DR. BERNSTEIN'S DIABETES SOLUTION " .

[, Bruce]

[Guest guest]

> That is why we WASH our fruit

> before eating it. The skin is

> where most of the fiber is.

Let me know how you get on eating

the skin of a mango, a banana, a

pineapple, a papaya or a melon, to

name just a few!

> See " DR. BERNSTEIN'S DIABETES

> SOLUTION " .

There must be almost as many media

" doctors " in the US as lawyers!

Keep that up and I will quote

Dr. Phil, Dr. , Dr. Weil, or

even Dr. Ruth at you!

Regards

[Guest guest]

[alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

> That is why we WASH our fruit

> before eating it. The skin is

> where most of the fiber is.

Let me know how you get on eating

the skin of a mango, a banana, a

pineapple, a papaya or a melon, to

name just a few!

[, Bruce] Well, yes, that's another matter. But these have too much sugar

for diabetics anyway. I was thinking of apples, grapes, pears, strawberries,

and the like.

> See " DR. BERNSTEIN'S DIABETES

> SOLUTION " .

[, Bruce] Dr. Bernstein is a cardiologist who is diabetic himself.

Everything in his book he has used first on himself and then on his patients. I

think that quoting him is relevant on a diabetic list.

[, Bruce]

Regards

[Guest guest]

> People, how about common sense?

Very nice if you have it but I

haven't seen much about diabetes

that can be dealt with using

common sense. Most of the little

I know about it was learnt the

hard way. It would be very hard

on us if we were told that we

wouldn't be in this condition if

we had used common sense!

> Besides this condition, I am

> lactose intolerant.

Very unpleasant but I bet that

you wouldn't deduce from that

that milk as such is a poison?

> Only the individual, however,

> knows how it affect them

> personally.

Unfortunately, we know only how

these things affect us if they do

it right away. But very many

problems that are thought to be

caused by eating the wrong things

do not show up until 10 or 20

years have elapsed. By the time

we know what happened, it is too

late to try something else - we

get only one go at it!

> For me, that only comes from

> trial and error.

I would be happy about that if we

were talking about learning to play

billiards but it doesn't help me

much when I sit down to eat if

I say to myself: " Here we go with

another little trial and error! "

What I find hard to understand is

that billions are paid out all over

the world to medical and nutritional

scientists to get a handle on this

problem and yet the average

diabetic after diagnosis is still

sent home wondering what on earth

he or she is going to eat now!

> Peace and Grace

Yeah, you too.

Regards

[Guest guest]

Well, for him it is.

[alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

> Besides this condition, I am

> lactose intolerant.

Very unpleasant but I bet that

you wouldn't deduce from that

that milk as such is a poison?

[Guest guest]

> Well, yes, that's another matter.

> But these [a mango, a banana, a

> pineapple, a papaya or a melon,]

> have too much sugar for diabetics

> anyway.

It is not fair to make dogmatic

statements like that! My wife and I

eat those fruits every day, year in,

year out and we have our diabetes

(both Type 2) under good control.

> I was thinking of apples, grapes,

> pears, strawberries, and the like.

I don't know what kind of grapes

you are eating but over here

(Germany) grapes have over 15%

carbohydrate, apples have over 11%,

and pears over 12%.

Pineapple and mango have the same

CH content as apples and pears (12%)

but papaya has only 2.5% CH. Bananas

are 21.5% CH but they have such

a high content in valuable minerals

and trace elements that the

trade-off is worthwhile.

I really do not see how you can

justify your choice of fruit and

your rejection of ours, not on the

grounds of sugar content, at least.

> Dr. Bernstein is a cardiologist

> who is diabetic himself.

What does that have to do with it?

That is like recommending a marriage

counsellor because he has been

divorced five times already himself!

> Everything in his book he has used

> first on himself and then on his

> patients.

I know the book and some of his

practical tips have come in useful

but he doesn't present one bit of

evidence for anything he says - he

is selling a book that is one big

anecdote from beginning to end.

Regards

[Guest guest]

[alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

> Dr. Bernstein is a cardiologist

> who is diabetic himself.

What does that have to do with it?

That is like recommending a marriage

counsellor because he has been

divorced five times already himself!

[, Bruce]

What does that have to do with it? All those years in undergraduate school,

medical school, internship, residency, and practice---and he learned nothing

from it? We might as well then give up on medical science entirely and go

back to consulting our tribal shamans to beat their drums and shake their

rattles to drive the Sugar Demons away.

> Everything in his book he has used

> first on himself and then on his

> patients.

I know the book and some of his

practical tips have come in useful

but he doesn't present one bit of

evidence for anything he says - he

is selling a book that is one big

anecdote from beginning to end.

[, Bruce]

Evidence? The 'evidence' is that he has tested his theories on himself and his

patients. Besides, the book isn't intended as a scholarly, scientific work; it

is a popular work, and different standards apply.

See: http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/articles/articles.shtml

And: http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/testimonials/testimonials.shtml

[, Bruce] Regards

[Guest guest]

RE: [alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

I'm confused-First you state how the doctors'

education and experience must be considered or we

should give up on medical science and go back to

shamans.

[, Bruce]

Exactly.

[, Bruce]

Then, in your next rebuttal, you state how

his book isn't considered scientific and doesn't have

to meet that criteria.

[, Bruce]

The BOOK isn't a scientific work; it is a popular one. Hence, even

though the author is a scientist and an experienced physician, and his

training and experience informed the contents and conclusions, the book

need not--indeed, SHOULD NOT--have the full documentation of a

scholarly, scientific tome. Different purpose, different audience,

different rhetorical conventions.

[, Bruce]

[Guest guest]

>

> All those years in undergraduate

> school, medical school, internship,

> residency, and practice---and he

> learned nothing from it?

Don't get me wrong, Bruce, I like the

book and consider it well worth the

money but if you read it, you will

notice that it wasn't quite like that.

He was an engineer working for a

company making hospital equipment. He

had diabetes from young and a heart

problem and decided to do something

about it himself. It was only after

he had done most of the work and

discovered that, not having medical

qualifications, he wasn't being taken

seriously, that he decided to get a

basic medical degree quite late in

life (cynics might say: to better sell

the book!).

Unfortunately, you will find many

accounts of how neither diabetes nor

nutrition feature significantly in

an MD course. Apparently there are

many practicing MDs about with only

sketchy knowledge of both.

> We might as well then give up on

> medical science entirely and go

> back to consulting our tribal

> shamans to beat their drums and

> shake their rattles to drive the

> Sugar Demons away.

I have seen voodoo men at work and

they have their successes, too!

But " medical science " has long since

given up the idea that diabetics

should not touch sugar.

> Everything in his book he has used

> first on himself and then on his

> patients.

Of the 390 pages in the book, only

49 of them (108-157) are concerned

with nutrition, and even then only

in a superficial way. He claims no

specialist training in nutrition.

> Evidence? The 'evidence' is that

> he has tested his theories on

> himself and his patients.

That is not scientific evidence,

those are 'anecdotes'. He had no

training as a research scientist

and his book was not peer-reviewed.

> Besides, the book isn't intended

> as a scholarly, scientific work;

> it is a popular work, and different

> standards apply.

That's OK then if you leave it at

that.

[Guest guest]

[alldiabeticinternational] Re: Hi to everyone (Bruce)

He was an engineer working for a

company making hospital equipment. He

had diabetes from young and a heart

problem and decided to do something

about it himself. It was only after

he had done most of the work and

discovered that, not having medical

qualifications, he wasn't being taken

seriously, that he decided to get a

basic medical degree quite late in

life (cynics might say: to better sell

the book!).

[, Bruce]

IIRC, he's a board-certified cardiologist; hardly 'a basic medical degree'.