Re: Re:World Congress on CODHy

[Guest guest]

There are several reasons that make THE First World Congress on

Controversies in Obesity, Diabetes and Hypertension of interest to me. One

of which is timing. Including the fact that I could have funds available in

time to pay fees, fares etc. The recent publication of a CME on " Targeting

Abdominal Obesity to Reduce Cardiovascular Risk in Patients With Type 2

Diabetes " means that some people are thinking about links between the

brain/obesity/diabetes etc. which has been an interest of mine for many

years - long before I was diagnosed with DM2. When I consider making a

presentation at conferences - especially International ones, I need to know

that my contribution is likely to be heard - that there will be some people

who will understand what I'm saying. Obviously, the people reviewing

abstracts have to see where it would fit in their program too. My programs

are about helping people make changes - patients and professionals. In the

past I have participated in many conferences that included lay people - at

this time I'm excited and looking forward to attending a professional

conference.

I'm hoping to attend a conference in USA on another topic - and plans are

underway to go to India as a volunteer, so a conference or two in Europe

will enable me to see more of Europe - and visit my son in London.

Bea

Thornton

>

> There is probably at least one international diabetes conference

> every week somewhere in the world, Bea, so why this particular one?

> In the scientific program for the Berlin conference in October, I

> miss any trace of patient-orientierung. The entire conference

> appears to be about treatment and methods and strategies but without

> any particular regard for the patient's point of view, it could just

> as well be a conference of veterinarians! They want us to have no

> more say in the treatment of OUR disease than do cats, dogs and

> horses!

>

> It would only be a few hours train ride for me, maybe I could get a

> few sympathizers together and have a little " peaceful " demo outside

> the hall, burn tires in the street, smash a few shop windows, etc.,

> just like the globalization protesters? How about a parade of

> diabetes amputees in their invalid chairs blocking all traffic? It

> is much the same principle - far-reaching decisions are being taken

> without the active participation of those most affected!

>

> I would like to go to a conference in which patients are adequately

> represented and are given an opportunity to express themselves.

>

> Regards

[Guest guest]

There are several reasons that make THE First World Congress on

Controversies in Obesity, Diabetes and Hypertension of interest to me. One

of which is timing. Including the fact that I could have funds available in

time to pay fees, fares etc. The recent publication of a CME on " Targeting

Abdominal Obesity to Reduce Cardiovascular Risk in Patients With Type 2

Diabetes " means that some people are thinking about links between the

brain/obesity/diabetes etc. which has been an interest of mine for many

years - long before I was diagnosed with DM2. When I consider making a

presentation at conferences - especially International ones, I need to know

that my contribution is likely to be heard - that there will be some people

who will understand what I'm saying. Obviously, the people reviewing

abstracts have to see where it would fit in their program too. My programs

are about helping people make changes - patients and professionals. In the

past I have participated in many conferences that included lay people - at

this time I'm excited and looking forward to attending a professional

conference.

I'm hoping to attend a conference in USA on another topic - and plans are

underway to go to India as a volunteer, so a conference or two in Europe

will enable me to see more of Europe - and visit my son in London.

Bea

Thornton

>

> There is probably at least one international diabetes conference

> every week somewhere in the world, Bea, so why this particular one?

> In the scientific program for the Berlin conference in October, I

> miss any trace of patient-orientierung. The entire conference

> appears to be about treatment and methods and strategies but without

> any particular regard for the patient's point of view, it could just

> as well be a conference of veterinarians! They want us to have no

> more say in the treatment of OUR disease than do cats, dogs and

> horses!

>

> It would only be a few hours train ride for me, maybe I could get a

> few sympathizers together and have a little " peaceful " demo outside

> the hall, burn tires in the street, smash a few shop windows, etc.,

> just like the globalization protesters? How about a parade of

> diabetes amputees in their invalid chairs blocking all traffic? It

> is much the same principle - far-reaching decisions are being taken

> without the active participation of those most affected!

>

> I would like to go to a conference in which patients are adequately

> represented and are given an opportunity to express themselves.

>

> Regards

[Guest guest]

Go for it, Bea!

Sue

[Guest guest]

Bea,

It sounds like you have a wonderful New Year planned. I hope that all your plans

work out for you and you get all out of them you hope to get. And have fun with

your son too.

Lou

[Guest guest]

, what are you saying, that you've read that gaining normal BGs

doesn't reverse diabetic neuropathy? Please give cites. Because there

are many on this list who have indeed reversed their peripheral

neuropathy by obtaining non-diabetic BGs. It's not instant though. I

believe it took a couple of years for Dr. Bernstein to reverse his.

I assume by " diabetic foot syndrome " you mean peripheral neuropathy.

Vicki

Re:World Congress on CODHy

>

>

>> My programs are about helping people make changes

>> - patients and professionals. In the past I have

>> participated in many conferences that included

>> lay people - at this time I'm excited and looking

>> forward to attending a professional conference.

>

> That is amazing, Bea! I had no idea that you were so much into the

> subject. I hope you do not take my remarks amiss.

>

> I have recently been absorbing a lot of information about the

> diabetic foot syndrom, the startling statistics showing that

> improved BG control has had no effect on the amputation rate and the

> neophilosophical approach prompted by the apparent failure of

> doctors and patients to communicate on the subject, the widespread

> failure of patients to comply with the recommendations for

> protecting their feet and the psychological reaction that

> appears to be detaching patients from their feet mentally, odd

> though it sounds.

>

> The latest I read was that the doctors have just about given up on

> the hope getting through to patients on the subject. I was therefore

> disappointed that the program for the Berlin conference did not

> appear to place much emphasis on the diabetic foot syndrome and the

> amputation rate, especially as so much work has been done on the

> subject in Germany.

>

> Have you done any work on that aspect?

>

> Regards

>

>

[Guest guest]

, what are you saying, that you've read that gaining normal BGs

doesn't reverse diabetic neuropathy? Please give cites. Because there

are many on this list who have indeed reversed their peripheral

neuropathy by obtaining non-diabetic BGs. It's not instant though. I

believe it took a couple of years for Dr. Bernstein to reverse his.

I assume by " diabetic foot syndrome " you mean peripheral neuropathy.

Vicki

Re:World Congress on CODHy

>

>

>> My programs are about helping people make changes

>> - patients and professionals. In the past I have

>> participated in many conferences that included

>> lay people - at this time I'm excited and looking

>> forward to attending a professional conference.

>

> That is amazing, Bea! I had no idea that you were so much into the

> subject. I hope you do not take my remarks amiss.

>

> I have recently been absorbing a lot of information about the

> diabetic foot syndrom, the startling statistics showing that

> improved BG control has had no effect on the amputation rate and the

> neophilosophical approach prompted by the apparent failure of

> doctors and patients to communicate on the subject, the widespread

> failure of patients to comply with the recommendations for

> protecting their feet and the psychological reaction that

> appears to be detaching patients from their feet mentally, odd

> though it sounds.

>

> The latest I read was that the doctors have just about given up on

> the hope getting through to patients on the subject. I was therefore

> disappointed that the program for the Berlin conference did not

> appear to place much emphasis on the diabetic foot syndrome and the

> amputation rate, especially as so much work has been done on the

> subject in Germany.

>

> Have you done any work on that aspect?

>

> Regards

>

>

[Guest guest]

, what are you saying, that you've read that gaining normal BGs

doesn't reverse diabetic neuropathy? Please give cites. Because there

are many on this list who have indeed reversed their peripheral

neuropathy by obtaining non-diabetic BGs. It's not instant though. I

believe it took a couple of years for Dr. Bernstein to reverse his.

I assume by " diabetic foot syndrome " you mean peripheral neuropathy.

Vicki

Re:World Congress on CODHy

>

>

>> My programs are about helping people make changes

>> - patients and professionals. In the past I have

>> participated in many conferences that included

>> lay people - at this time I'm excited and looking

>> forward to attending a professional conference.

>

> That is amazing, Bea! I had no idea that you were so much into the

> subject. I hope you do not take my remarks amiss.

>

> I have recently been absorbing a lot of information about the

> diabetic foot syndrom, the startling statistics showing that

> improved BG control has had no effect on the amputation rate and the

> neophilosophical approach prompted by the apparent failure of

> doctors and patients to communicate on the subject, the widespread

> failure of patients to comply with the recommendations for

> protecting their feet and the psychological reaction that

> appears to be detaching patients from their feet mentally, odd

> though it sounds.

>

> The latest I read was that the doctors have just about given up on

> the hope getting through to patients on the subject. I was therefore

> disappointed that the program for the Berlin conference did not

> appear to place much emphasis on the diabetic foot syndrome and the

> amputation rate, especially as so much work has been done on the

> subject in Germany.

>

> Have you done any work on that aspect?

>

> Regards

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I'm kinda confused about that too. I had neuropathy in my legs

and feet at dx, which has completely gone away, but I found out (once)

that I can make it come back if my A1c gets up to 7.0.

CarolR

whimsy2 wrote:

> , what are you saying, that you've read that gaining normal BGs

> doesn't reverse diabetic neuropathy? Please give cites. Because there

> are many on this list who have indeed reversed their peripheral

> neuropathy by obtaining non-diabetic BGs. It's not instant though. I

> believe it took a couple of years for Dr. Bernstein to reverse his.

>

> I assume by " diabetic foot syndrome " you mean peripheral neuropathy.

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I'm kinda confused about that too. I had neuropathy in my legs

and feet at dx, which has completely gone away, but I found out (once)

that I can make it come back if my A1c gets up to 7.0.

CarolR

whimsy2 wrote:

> , what are you saying, that you've read that gaining normal BGs

> doesn't reverse diabetic neuropathy? Please give cites. Because there

> are many on this list who have indeed reversed their peripheral

> neuropathy by obtaining non-diabetic BGs. It's not instant though. I

> believe it took a couple of years for Dr. Bernstein to reverse his.

>

> I assume by " diabetic foot syndrome " you mean peripheral neuropathy.

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I'm kinda confused about that too. I had neuropathy in my legs

and feet at dx, which has completely gone away, but I found out (once)

that I can make it come back if my A1c gets up to 7.0.

CarolR

whimsy2 wrote:

> , what are you saying, that you've read that gaining normal BGs

> doesn't reverse diabetic neuropathy? Please give cites. Because there

> are many on this list who have indeed reversed their peripheral

> neuropathy by obtaining non-diabetic BGs. It's not instant though. I

> believe it took a couple of years for Dr. Bernstein to reverse his.

>

> I assume by " diabetic foot syndrome " you mean peripheral neuropathy.

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

Vicki, I have not reversed my neuropathy and, in fact, with Alcs in the 6

and under range since I went back to insulin, the neuropathy has

continued to spread. I am also taking supplements.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen for everyone; I think a lot would depend

on how long you were undiagnosed, how long you were controlling at 7 and

thinking that was good, and, simply, how long you have had diabetes. Not

to mention how susceptible you are to that particular damage. With all

this neuropathy, I have no damage to my eyes or kidneys.

With nerves, damage may occur without any overt symptoms because other

nerves pick up the slack. Suddenly, one day, you no longer have any

undamaged nerves, and who knows how many dead ones. Even if you were to

reverse a lot, but not all, of the neuropathy in the nerves you have

left, that might not be enough to regain normal feeling, normal function.

Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen, I know that not all neuropathy can be reversed. But sometimes it

can. I'm sorry yours wasn't.

Vicki

Re: Re:World Congress on CODHy

> Vicki, I have not reversed my neuropathy and, in fact, with Alcs in

> the 6

> and under range since I went back to insulin, the neuropathy has

> continued to spread. I am also taking supplements.

>

> Unfortunately, it doesn't happen for everyone; I think a lot would

> depend

> on how long you were undiagnosed, how long you were controlling at 7

> and

> thinking that was good, and, simply, how long you have had diabetes.

> Not

> to mention how susceptible you are to that particular damage. With

> all

> this neuropathy, I have no damage to my eyes or kidneys.

>

> With nerves, damage may occur without any overt symptoms because other

> nerves pick up the slack. Suddenly, one day, you no longer have any

> undamaged nerves, and who knows how many dead ones. Even if you were

> to

> reverse a lot, but not all, of the neuropathy in the nerves you have

> left, that might not be enough to regain normal feeling, normal

> function.

>

> Helen

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm glad you didn't mean what I misinterpreted.

And you're quite right that the amputations aren't caused by peripheral

neuropathy but rather, wounds that get infected and are not felt by the

diabetic because of peripheral neuropathy. And amputations happen

because of infections and poor wound healing - which is due to elevated

BGs.

You're quite right in encouraging diabetics not to ever walk barefoot,

and the white socks thing too.

Although I must admit that I'm one diabetic who DOES walk barefoot

around the house in hot weather; my feet become red and swollen if I

don't (not related to diabetes, though). But OTOH, I don't have

peripheral neuropathy or in fact any diabetic related complications.

And I regularly check with fiber wire for PN. However, even though I

check for it regularly, I'd be quite surprised if I had it since my A1Cs

have been consistently under 6 almost since diagnosis. And I didn't

have any symptoms on diagnosis, either.

OTOH...I was diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea last March. And I'm

not in the least overweight. Go figure, smile.

Vicki

Re:World Congress on CODHy

>

>

>> , what are you saying, that you've

>> read that gaining normal BGs doesn't reverse

>> diabetic neuropathy? Please give cites.

>

> No, I did not mean to imply that, Vicki. What I said was that the

> rate of amputations has not gone down as the general blood glucose

> control has improved over recent years (in Germany, at any rate) -

> the curve is flat over 4 or 5 years for statistics obtained by

> calculating up from data obtained from sample towns. That does not

> say anything about individuals, it is simply a lack of statistical

> correlation between the two national figures.

>

> It is claimed that bookkeeping on amputations is very poor generally

> and that the number could be much higher than is being reported. I

> got the impression that surgical departments in hospitals here get

> cases of gangrenous feet sent to them and amputate, some are from

> diabetics and some are from non-diabetics, records are not always

> complete. They apparently do not feel obliged to search for the

> cause, which of course is not the diabetes itself but an untreated

> injury that was allowed by the patient to become septic for some

> reason.

>

> In the case of diabetics, the polyneuropathy would explain why the

> wound became septic before it was noticed. The numbers are clouded

> because some amputees are not discharged from the hospital

> immediately (average stay 48 days for the amputation alone!) but are

> sent on to other departments for the treatment of other complaints.

> There was also some criticism of general physicians (less of

> endocrinologists) for not taking polyneuropathy seriously enough.

>

> The lecture I heard claimed that there is some psychological reason

> why patients, once their neuropathy has advanced to the stage at

> which they no longer have any sensation in their feet, lose interest

> in them and then neglect them completely. Strange isn't it? I will

> dig out the references during the week, can't do it now, it is 4:00

> a.m.! I must confess that the details (and one of the pictures in

> particular) made me feel sick and I had to break off.

>

>> Because there are many on this list who

>> have indeed reversed their peripheral

>> neuropathy by obtaining non-diabetic BGs

>

> Yes, I know that. I heard something about that, too.

>

>> I assume by " diabetic foot syndrome " you

>> mean peripheral neuropathy.

>

> Hmm. I think that it is more than that. I believe that the term

> includes what happens to the feet AFTER the peripheral neuropathy

> becomes irreversible and progresses but I will have to confirm that.

> I repeat, the peripheral neuropathy does not CAUSE a foot to become

> gangrenous, the cause is an untreated injury, whether the patient is

> diabetic or not. I assume that the retarded healing of wounds in

> diabetics might be an aggravating factor for them.

>

> It is not a nice subject but it is better to err on the safe side.

> The summary is that the doctors here cannot get through to the

> patients and appear to have given up on the problem - it is now a

> matter for the psychologists or the philosophers. Maybe the problem

> will not feature at the Berlin Controversies conference because it

> is no longer controversial!

>

> My bottom line for diabetics is: Never walk about barefoot ANYWHERE,

> not even in the bedroom. Wash and examine your feet EVERY night

> before going to sleep. Check between the toes for chafing sores.

> Take every sign of dry skin on the foot as an indication of

> polyneuropathy and treat it accordingly (soak the feet in water for

> at least 15 minutes and seal off the skin with bath oil to stop the

> water evaporating again). Wear white socks in bed EVERY night and

> turn them inside-out in the morning to search for blood stains. Get

> treatment the same or the next day any time a sore or cut is found.

> Easy said but, to judge from the amputation statistics, something is

> stopping many diabetics from doing it!

>

> Regards

>

>

[Guest guest]

No work but having a painfult foot a few months ago I read heaps - plus

became more dedicated to controlling my BGs etc. and doing my aquatherapy

(now walking is out)

I'm curious - have you posted sites re improved BG control not reducing foot

amputations?

My hunch is that we have to be proactive re PAD - taking anti oxidants, and

controling fats etc.

Bea

wrote

> I have recently been absorbing a lot of information about the

> diabetic foot syndrom, the startling statistics showing that

> improved BG control has had no effect on the amputation rate and the

> neophilosophical approach prompted by the apparent failure of

> doctors and patients to communicate on the subject, the widespread

> failure of patients to comply with the recommendations for

> protecting their feet and the psychological reaction that

> appears to be detaching patients from their feet mentally, odd

> though it sounds.

>

> The latest I read was that the doctors have just about given up on

> the hope getting through to patients on the subject. I was therefore

> disappointed that the program for the Berlin conference did not

> appear to place much emphasis on the diabetic foot syndrome and the

> amputation rate, especially as so much work has been done on the

> subject in Germany.

>

> Have you done any work on that aspect?

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks ml

Plans are one thing - making things happen is much more demanding! Must get

rid of the junk - and saleable items asap and sell the house. Then I can

move on. Son is always busy and on the move - e.g. this week in Paris, and

then Tunisia - but his partner will entertain me.

Bea

ml wrote

> Bea,

> It sounds like you have a wonderful New Year planned. I hope that all your

> plans

> work out for you and you get all out of them you hope to get. And have fun

> with

> your son too.

> Lou

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, I didn't realize you were going to sell your house too. Lots of good luck

with

all that work, etc.

I live in an old old box that is being blown like heck tonight, hope I still am

upright and have a roof by later today, yikes!!!!

ml

Bea Pullar wrote:

> Thanks ml

>

> Plans are one thing - making things happen is much more demanding! Must get

> rid of the junk - and saleable items asap and sell the house. Then I can

> move on. Son is always busy and on the move - e.g. this week in Paris, and

> then Tunisia - but his partner will entertain me.

>

> Bea

>

> ml wrote

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 03:07 AM 1/9/06 +0000, T wrote:

>The lecture I heard claimed that there is some psychological reason

>why patients, once their neuropathy has advanced to the stage at

>which they no longer have any sensation in their feet, lose interest

>in them and then neglect them completely. Strange isn't it?

Oliver Sacks, the author/neuropsychologist refers to this rejection of ones

body part(s) in several of his books, primarily when describing his own

experience in a prolonged leg cast after a bad skiing break in " A Leg to

Stand On. "

Nora

[Guest guest]

Bea - I am way behind on reading messages but WOW - sounds like a great

experience for you.

Barb in NH

Bea Pullar wrote:

> There are several reasons that make THE First World Congress on

> Controversies in Obesity, Diabetes and Hypertension of interest to me.

> One

> of which is timing. Including the fact that I could have funds

> available in

> time to pay fees, fares etc. The recent publication of a CME on

> " Targeting

> Abdominal Obesity to Reduce Cardiovascular Risk in Patients With Type 2

> Diabetes " means that some people are thinking about links between the

> brain/obesity/diabetes etc. which has been an interest of mine for many

> years - long before I was diagnosed with DM2. When I consider making a

> presentation at conferences - especially International ones, I need to

> know

> that my contribution is likely to be heard - that there will be some

> people

> who will understand what I'm saying. Obviously, the people reviewing

> abstracts have to see where it would fit in their program too. My

> programs

> are about helping people make changes - patients and professionals. In

> the

> past I have participated in many conferences that included lay people

> - at

> this time I'm excited and looking forward to attending a professional

> conference.

>

> I'm hoping to attend a conference in USA on another topic - and plans are

> underway to go to India as a volunteer, so a conference or two in Europe

> will enable me to see more of Europe - and visit my son in London.

>

> Bea

>