RE: Deborah/PJs history

[Guest guest]

Dear PJ

When and I were in counseling together this past summer (very

briefly), she said that ghetto boy there HAD abused her emotionally. I said I

didn't believe her for one minute because I know she had always manipulated all

the guys she went out with. But her behavior when with this guy and his

friends and family was truely bizarre. She came to dinner at Christmas after

being with them (many were living in her apt that she paid for like a flop

house) and even HER body language had turned ghetto. My son and I were

disgusted.

I kept telling her I would help her get away from him, but she kept telling

me how " dangerous " he was. After they had moved to a new apt and she was

pregnant with my older grandson. she called me saying she had left him and

would I come out to her apt and I went running. When I got there, he was

THERE,

lying on the sofa playing video games (the only thing he ever did other than

drugs---UGH!). She was running around cleaning and when I saw this little

scenerio and realized she, for some reason lied to me about his being gone and

I had once again gone running to her aid, I lost my mind. I called him EVERY

derogatory name I could think of and baited him in the hopes that he would

hit me so I could have him arrested. Imagine a big, ghetto guy hitting a poor

defenseless, middle aged middle class woman. I knew only too well what the

police would do. But NO, he just yelled at me and in a pathetic voice told

me I shouldn't call him those names, that he had never done anything to me,

but hit me or threaten me-----------NO. SO to this day I find it hard to

believe that he could have made her very fearful. He was just a big, poorly

raised, misguided KID. Yet it does seem that seems to THINK she was

emotionally abused. And I must admit he did smack her in the face one time

after

she had been screaming in his face and I know how I wished I had smacked her

when she did that to me in college. Perhaps the THINKING she was abused has

become her reality. Who knows. But there is obviously some reaason she

picks these jerks and then stays with them as they run her into the

ground---take her down to their levels.

Jean

[Guest guest]

All of 's boyfriends have been weak characters of one form or

another. The first was a very bright Korean boy who was friends with both my

daughter and my son. He seemed nice enough but she would always lend him money

even before he would ask and she would pay for all dates. When they broke up

before college, she scratched his car with her key. ANd he came whining to me.

After her college boyfriend of 4 years, a nice Irish boy with a family

history of too much booze, broke up with her because she was always trying to

control him, she called the Korean boy, because she needed a date for

the

Sr week end festivities. He was in college at Tufts in Boston, but he came

running when she called and she also got to go to his Sr week end activities.

is a doctor today. I am not sure what is doing---the one she

dated in college. There was also another one she met at the beach who lived in

Conn who was interested in her---good looking, nice kid who ended up in the

service and is now an anaesthiological nurse making excellent money. All

thru college there were many who liked her and I never understood why she

didn't

date them instead of with the drinking problem. Saen's dad is an

engineer in NJ, they are loaded but his other 2 brothers and one of his

sister's

all drink too much. After broke up with her, kept his cat and

got a restraining order against him when he tried to reclaim the cat. She

,maintains she paid to have the cat fixed and therefore owed her money

before she would relinquish it. She still owns the cat who resides in her

basement along with 2 other gross cats. My grandson is allergic to them so

they

have to stay in the basement. I have begged her to find other homes for them

but she doesn't. Lwet me add here, she always paid for everything with

also. She worked all thru college and her father paid for her apt and she

paid to " keep " her boyfriends. The one who was in the service had more pride

though than to accept her paying---but she didn't datre him long at all. I

think she feels if she has more money, she can control these guys.

The nice boy from the beach calls or writes me every Christmas to see how

she is doing. He is now married. He had invited her to go out to LA when she

was with the ghetto guy, but she wouldn't. He's the one who wouldn't let her

pay.

The loser she is now married to seems to cry to her a lot. He tells her

about his childhood and if what he says is true, his mother is a whack job and

his dad is gay. Parents are and have been divorced for years. But there is

something about this kid, I just don't like. I am not sure what he is capable

of. I honestly didn't have that gut feeling about the ghetto guy.

This one was molested by his boy scout leader. Krisitn was a Social work

major in college and during her internship, she met him. He is 8 years younger

than she is. So I assume he looked up to her and low and behold now they

are married with one child between them and yet another on the way and him with

not more than a month's work history to his name in the past 10 years.

Wish I knew the answer. Sometimes I think she HAS to lose everything before

she learns to stop paying the way of every guy she is involved with.

SHe told me she doesn't like the regfular middle class guys like her brother

because they are all know it all's.

Jean

[Guest guest]

For some reason I seem to be ruminating a lot since the holidays are over.

The bottom line is I will never know why Krisitn chooses to mess up her life

with one loser after another and I can only wait and see what each day brings

and deal with it as it comes. I am not going to change her or what she

chooses to do. I could beg, threaten, etc all to no avail.

So I will love her the best I can and accept her as she is but not offer any

advice, money, etc. I will only help out where the boys are concerned and

once in a while where the baby is concerned. Quite frankly, that is all I

have strength for anyway. A fourth pregnancy with a heart defect---hole in her

heart. Don't know what she was thinking. If I allowed myself to worry I

would be in our local mental health facility myself. I am too old to beat

myself up about all this any longer.

Whatever happens, happens.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I am taking the liberty to switch the topic here just a bit, because what

Kelley wrote was a revelation to me. Also, my experience might be a part of

why Jean's daughter is so messed up.

I was 55 when I met a psychiatrist who became a friend. He claimed he could

help friends better than clients and proceeded to develop a dual

relationship with me - it began with a seduction, although it is difficult

to say what happened first, as he began treating me therapeutically at the

same time. He developed a relationship in which he seemed to go along with

my religious beliefs, used my strengths to get me to be an emotional support

to him, and used my childhood sexual abuse which was minimal and my

narcissistic father, which was major, to lead to what is called " abuse of

transference. " During the year this lasted I disappeared as I had been all

my life. My marriage survived, and the psychiatrist lost his medical

license. I learned that he had done this with patients and former patients

many times, offering to marry at least one of them as he did me.

Interestingly, I believe he asked me to marry him, as that part of me was

still intact and he knew he wouldn't get anywhere with me sexually unless

marriage was in the picture. Never mind that we were both married and I was

so confused by then that I thought this was the most courageous and wise

thing I had ever done in my life. You would have to know me to know what a

stretch this was - not to mention that my husband of 31 yrs is a GREAT GUY

who dearly loves me.

After it all fell apart (the shrink decided I was manipulative and after his

money) I was in severe depression and was pretty much like someone who had

been brainwashed in a cult, and then the cult fell apart. But when I went to

therapy I would get the comment that I had " borderline tendencies. " I never

could figure out why the counselors would say that. But now I get it. It was

because they saw me in this PTSD state of nothingness. I saw me as I had

been all my life - a real person with a strong identity, disciplined,

creative, and good self-control - but now suffering from severe trauma. I

knew I wasn't myself at the time (It has taken about 4 years for me to

recover.) but I couldn't see how I fit the " BPD " label.

So now I get it. I was assimilating the personality of the psychiatrist. Of

course, this was also something I had never done, so I would pin that on the

psychiatrist using his skills to harm and destroy women. This is a felony,

after all, because a therapist is trained to do this and is supposed to use

it for good, not harm.

But here is my question: I wonder if Jean's daughter was also conned and

harmed by the ghetto boy. We know that the criminal mind is manipulative and

capable of mind games. A naive young woman could be destroyed by such. Think

of the women who followed Manson. They came from nice homes and were

normal young women until they met up with him.

Jean, I don't know if this is what happened to her - and she would have been

much more vulnerable at her young age than I was at 55 - but we are all

vulnerable if the right mind games are played. Meanwhile she could be really

messed up and unable to even figure out why or what to do about it. I don't

know that this will help you - but it might. It might give you some clues of

what direction she needs to take to sort herself out - to figure out who she

really wants to be.

I will be looking forward to feedback on these thoughts.

PJ

No sense of identity is a prime characteristic of BP. I know you've often

questioned whether Kirstin actually is BP or not. It seems, in reading your

different posts, that she does tend to assimilate within herself the

personality of the man that she is with -- i.e., a lowlife, and she then

goes that route -- not wanting to work, etc. And then when that person is

out of her life, she tends to assume YOUR personality -- working hard and

taking care of her family. Just some thoughts.

You're a great grandmother!

Kelley C.

cascorsam@... wrote:

Deborah

Believe me, it has taken many years and I have only recently come to

terms

with accepting how my daughter deals with life. When she first hooked up

with

the ghetto boy who fathered my two grandsons, I was kicking and screaming

in

non acceptance. She had been rebellious just as she was beginning

college,

but for the 1st 18 yrs of her life was the perfect child----straight A's,

went to a private school where they allowed her to go to Brown University

for

some Senior classes. She was beautiful---was runner up in the Miss RI

Teen

Pageant------- too perfect I now realize. She never formed her own

identity

back then. I think a good deal of what she has gone thru has to do with

her

genes and my being overly protrective and a very controlling, know it all

mother

and she wanting to please me all the time, never rebelled when she should

have and did it royally during and after college to the tune of messing

up her

life greatly.

I do believe she is not happy or satisfied with her life as it is, but I

am

offering no advice, money, or anything else. She is 32 and hopefully she

will evetually grow up. I see some distinct characteristics in her baby

girl----10 months old now. She gives me the same blank stare that I used

to see in

when she was a baby and always found it odd. I often wonder if

the

father is BP. He does things like pull out his hair and his sister was a

bigtime cutter and is now into drugs as is he.

Why never found a nice, normal, middle class guy, I will never

know.

Her positives are that she is a very hard worker when she has to be.

Also, can be a very big spender when she shouldn't be. It seems she

unconsciously deliberately puts herself in situations where she has to

work her butt

off just to survive and somehow seems happy while doing it. Yet last year

when she refinaced the house and had $50,000 in the bank, she manage to

blow

thru it without saving or working at all till this October when she was

pretty

much down to 2 or 3 mortgage payments in the bank. I jsut don't know

what

she thinks when she blows thru all the money.

But accepting and sense of humor about it----I have no energy left to

fight

this and if I don't joke about it, I would go insane myself. It still

pains

me to see what a mess her life is, but I look at my 2 grandsons and see a

ton

of potential in them. They are both very bright---got her academic side

and

the older one is also the star of his soccer team and has an arm on him

that

won't quit. His little league coach thinks he has great athletic

potential.

And they are wonderful, kind, beautiful children. My son is their role

model. The older one, , has said he wants to be a lawyer like his

Uncle

greg and the little one (who borders on Nerd) says HE wants to be a

judge.

Great expectations. ANd believe me as long as I am alive, I will do my

best

for these two little guys. My energy is now going into them, but if I

begin to

see them acting " perfect " , I'll jump right in and tell them I will love

them

even more if they are not perfect but just human.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Keep thinking about it, Jean. The pathetic voice may be all it took. I

remember teaching a kid who stole from everyone, even taking things off my

desk. One day he didn't have lunch money and whined to the principal about

how we teachers wouldn't lend him lunch money. The principal GAVE him lunch

money. I had a fit and told the principal that kid stole more food every day

than he would get on his own tray. The boy was an amazing manipulator.

I thought the shrink was an angel of light. He was, in fact, the devil. He

cheated and lied about money and abused his clients. But he seemed exactly

like Mr. . I am not kidding.

If 's first boyfriend was this type and she was young I don't know

how she would survive this intact.

I guess my son is in the same spot, sort of. His fiancee has certainly

altered his every perception of us as a family.

PJ

Dear PJ

When and I were in counseling together this past summer (very

briefly), she said that ghetto boy there HAD abused her emotionally. I

said I

didn't believe her for one minute because I know she had always

manipulated all

the guys she went out with. But her behavior when with this guy and his

friends and family was truely bizarre. She came to dinner at Christmas

after

being with them (many were living in her apt that she paid for like a

flop

house) and even HER body language had turned ghetto. My son and I were

disgusted.

I kept telling her I would help her get away from him, but she kept

telling

me how " dangerous " he was. After they had moved to a new apt and she was

pregnant with my older grandson. she called me saying she had left him

and

would I come out to her apt and I went running. When I got there, he was

THERE,

lying on the sofa playing video games (the only thing he ever did other

than

drugs---UGH!). She was running around cleaning and when I saw this

little

scenerio and realized she, for some reason lied to me about his being

gone and

I had once again gone running to her aid, I lost my mind. I called him

EVERY

derogatory name I could think of and baited him in the hopes that he

would

hit me so I could have him arrested. Imagine a big, ghetto guy hitting a

poor

defenseless, middle aged middle class woman. I knew only too well what

the

police would do. But NO, he just yelled at me and in a pathetic voice

told

me I shouldn't call him those names, that he had never done anything to

me,

but hit me or threaten me-----------NO. SO to this day I find it hard to

believe that he could have made her very fearful. He was just a big,

poorly

raised, misguided KID. Yet it does seem that seems to THINK she

was

emotionally abused. And I must admit he did smack her in the face one

time after

she had been screaming in his face and I know how I wished I had smacked

her

when she did that to me in college. Perhaps the THINKING she was abused

has

become her reality. Who knows. But there is obviously some reaason she

picks these jerks and then stays with them as they run her into the

ground---take her down to their levels.

Jean