Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Hi Blondie, Nice research. So, what would it mean to summarize all that? A lot of it could present in the same way. Maybe the narcissist does not have the fear of abandonment. Also, and I'm sure there are many who would disagree, BPDs might be more inclined to twist the truth rather than create out and out lies. Someone I know defined the behavior as turning all the puzzle pieces upside down and then putting it all together so that the result was the opposite of the actual truth even though you could actually pick out the events that happened. (The stuff our daughter accuses us of is based on some measure of truth, but it can be so taken out of context and rearranged that it certainly looks like a lie and feels like a lie.) Reading the definitions below, it sounds as though the narcissist waits for it all to come to him (although he can be nasty when it doesn't), whereas a bpd is going to explode all over the place and be in everyone's face, not protecting herself the way a narcissist might. So, what does anyone else think? I'm interested in this too! Deborah --- TxCoastGal@... wrote: > > What an interesting question Ginny. Below is just > what I found from the > websites... based on NPD vs. BPD, but you may > already know all this.. sorry if > it's redundant. > > I haven't known many who were diagnosed NPD... > I am not even sure when NPD was first diagnosed. > Was it before BPD? Gosh > all these disorders sound like alphabet soup, don't > they? > > Blondie > > Here is what one site had to say about NPD ::: > > Characteristics and Traits > A person diagnosed with the Narcissistic Personality > Disorder (NPD) feels > grandiose and self-important. He tends to > exaggerates his accomplishments, > talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to > the point of lying. > > He also demands to be recognized as superior > without commensurate > achievements. > > Narcissists are obsessed with fantasies of > unlimited success, fame, fearsome > power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the > cerebral narcissist), > bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic > narcissist), or ideal, > everlasting, all-conquering love or passion. > > They are firmly convinced that he or she is unique > and, being special, can > only be understood by, should only be treated by, > or associate with, other > special or unique, or high-status people (or > institutions). > > The narcissist requires excessive admiration, > adulation, attention and > affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared > and to be notorious. Such > feedback is known as narcissistic supply and the > narcissist uses it to regulate > his labile sense of self-worth. > > The narcissist feels entitled. He demands automatic > and full compliance with > his unreasonable expectations for special and > favorable priority treatment. > A a result, he is often " interpersonally > exploitative " , i.e., uses others to > achieve his or her own ends; > > Narcissists lack empathy. They are unable or > unwilling to identify with, > acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, > preferences, priorities, and choices > of others. > > They are constantly envious of others and seek to > hurt or destroy the > objects of their resulting frustration. They suffer > from persecutory (paranoid) > delusions because they believe that others feel the > same about them - seething > with envy and resentment - and are likely to act on > these negative sentiments. > > > The narcissist is arrogant and haughty. He feels > superior, omnipotent, > omniscient, invincible, immune, " above the law " , and > omnipresent (magical > thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or > confronted by people he considers > inferior to him and unworthy. > > > BPD Characteristics ::: > > > Characteristics and Traits > The Borderline personality disorder, often diagnosed > among women, is one of > the most contentious mental health diagnoses. > Borderlines are characterized > by stormy, short-lived, and unstable relationships - > matched by wildly > fluctuating (labile) self-image and emotional > expression (affect). > > Borderlines are impulsive and reckless - their > sexual conduct is frequently > unsafe, they binge eat, gamble, drive, and shop > carelessly, and are substance > abusers. > They are also often characterized by > self-destructive and self-defeating > behaviors, such as suicidal ideation, suicide > attempts, gestures, or threats, > and self-mutilation or self-injury. > > Borderlines are terrified of being abandoned. They > make frantic - and, > usually, counterproductive - efforts to preempt or > prevent abandonment, both real > and imagined, by their nearest and dearest. > Clinging, codependent acts are > followed by idealization and then swift and > merciless devaluation of the > Borderline's partner. > > This ever-present anxiety is connected to the > Borderline's need for constant > affirmation to support her gyrating sense of > self-worth and her chaotic > self-image. In this, the Borderline is akin to the > narcissist, always on the > prowl for " narcissistic supply " to shore up > serious, marked, persistent, and > ubiquitous deficits in self-esteem and Ego > functions and to counter the gnawing > emptiness at his or her core. > > Hence the Borderline's mood reactivity. She shifts > dizzyingly between > dysphoria (sadness or depression) and euphoria, > manic self-confidence and > paralyzing anxiety, irritability and indifference. > This is reminiscent of the mood > swings of Bipolar Disorder patients. But > Borderlines are much angrier and more > violent. They usually get into physical fights, > throw temper tantrums, and > have frightening rage attacks. > > When stressed, many Borderlines become psychotic, > though only briefly > (psychotic micro-episodes), or develop transient > paranoid ideation and ideas of > reference (the erroneous conviction that one is the > focus of derision and > malicious gossip). Dissociative symptoms are not > uncommon ( " losing " stretches of > time, or objects, and forgetting events or facts > with emotional content). > > In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:42:11 A.M. Central > Standard Time, > imajgin@... writes: > > I've been reading the posts for several days now > and haven't been > responding to posts yet as I'm new here and my > daughter, who may have > BPD, is older than most of yours. I wish I was > smart enough to offer > more support and advice on the circumstances of > many of you. I have > come to the idea that my daughter has BPD rather > late. She is 39. > > I started to write this as a much longer post but > to keep it > short(er), I will come up with the question that is > in my mind. Or > questions. > > I am wondering if some people's development of BPD > is later than > others? Or are there always early signs that as > mothers some of us > miss early on due to denial? > > My mother has BPD. From what I know of her history, > I know that she > began to have more serious problems when she was > 30. That was when she > first saw a psychiatrist. Or the first that I know > about definitely. > But one of her brothers told me that she had done > some strange things > when she was younger. > > There is also the possibility that my daughter has > Narcissistic > Personality Disorder. I am aware of some of the > differences between > BPD and NPD. Does anyone here have an opinion on > what might make it > more clear which is which? BPD or NPD? Or can they > be a lot alike? > > Ginny > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Here is a good website that describes all of the various personality disorders that a wonderful person on another group provided us: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/personality-disorders/DS00562 > > > > > What an interesting question Ginny. Below is just > > what I found from the > > websites... based on NPD vs. BPD, but you may > > already know all this.. sorry if > > it's redundant. > > > > I haven't known many who were diagnosed NPD... > > I am not even sure when NPD was first diagnosed. > > Was it before BPD? Gosh > > all these disorders sound like alphabet soup, don't > > they? > > > > Blondie > > > > Here is what one site had to say about NPD ::: > > > > Characteristics and Traits > > A person diagnosed with the Narcissistic Personality > > Disorder (NPD) feels > > grandiose and self-important. He tends to > > exaggerates his accomplishments, > > talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to > > the point of lying. > > > > He also demands to be recognized as superior > > without commensurate > > achievements. > > > > Narcissists are obsessed with fantasies of > > unlimited success, fame, fearsome > > power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the > > cerebral narcissist), > > bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic > > narcissist), or ideal, > > everlasting, all-conquering love or passion. > > > > They are firmly convinced that he or she is unique > > and, being special, can > > only be understood by, should only be treated by, > > or associate with, other > > special or unique, or high-status people (or > > institutions). > > > > The narcissist requires excessive admiration, > > adulation, attention and > > affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared > > and to be notorious. Such > > feedback is known as narcissistic supply and the > > narcissist uses it to regulate > > his labile sense of self-worth. > > > > The narcissist feels entitled. He demands automatic > > and full compliance with > > his unreasonable expectations for special and > > favorable priority treatment. > > A a result, he is often " interpersonally > > exploitative " , i.e., uses others to > > achieve his or her own ends; > > > > Narcissists lack empathy. They are unable or > > unwilling to identify with, > > acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, > > preferences, priorities, and choices > > of others. > > > > They are constantly envious of others and seek to > > hurt or destroy the > > objects of their resulting frustration. They suffer > > from persecutory (paranoid) > > delusions because they believe that others feel the > > same about them - seething > > with envy and resentment - and are likely to act on > > these negative sentiments. > > > > > > The narcissist is arrogant and haughty. He feels > > superior, omnipotent, > > omniscient, invincible, immune, " above the law " , and > > omnipresent (magical > > thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or > > confronted by people he considers > > inferior to him and unworthy. > > > > > > BPD Characteristics ::: > > > > > > Characteristics and Traits > > The Borderline personality disorder, often diagnosed > > among women, is one of > > the most contentious mental health diagnoses. > > Borderlines are characterized > > by stormy, short-lived, and unstable relationships - > > matched by wildly > > fluctuating (labile) self-image and emotional > > expression (affect). > > > > Borderlines are impulsive and reckless - their > > sexual conduct is frequently > > unsafe, they binge eat, gamble, drive, and shop > > carelessly, and are substance > > abusers. > > They are also often characterized by > > self-destructive and self-defeating > > behaviors, such as suicidal ideation, suicide > > attempts, gestures, or threats, > > and self-mutilation or self-injury. > > > > Borderlines are terrified of being abandoned. They > > make frantic - and, > > usually, counterproductive - efforts to preempt or > > prevent abandonment, both real > > and imagined, by their nearest and dearest. > > Clinging, codependent acts are > > followed by idealization and then swift and > > merciless devaluation of the > > Borderline's partner. > > > > This ever-present anxiety is connected to the > > Borderline's need for constant > > affirmation to support her gyrating sense of > > self-worth and her chaotic > > self-image. In this, the Borderline is akin to the > > narcissist, always on the > > prowl for " narcissistic supply " to shore up > > serious, marked, persistent, and > > ubiquitous deficits in self-esteem and Ego > > functions and to counter the gnawing > > emptiness at his or her core. > > > > Hence the Borderline's mood reactivity. She shifts > > dizzyingly between > > dysphoria (sadness or depression) and euphoria, > > manic self-confidence and > > paralyzing anxiety, irritability and indifference. > > This is reminiscent of the mood > > swings of Bipolar Disorder patients. But > > Borderlines are much angrier and more > > violent. They usually get into physical fights, > > throw temper tantrums, and > > have frightening rage attacks. > > > > When stressed, many Borderlines become psychotic, > > though only briefly > > (psychotic micro-episodes), or develop transient > > paranoid ideation and ideas of > > reference (the erroneous conviction that one is the > > focus of derision and > > malicious gossip). Dissociative symptoms are not > > uncommon ( " losing " stretches of > > time, or objects, and forgetting events or facts > > with emotional content). > > > > In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:42:11 A.M. Central > > Standard Time, > > imajgin@... writes: > > > > I've been reading the posts for several days now > > and haven't been > > responding to posts yet as I'm new here and my > > daughter, who may have > > BPD, is older than most of yours. I wish I was > > smart enough to offer > > more support and advice on the circumstances of > > many of you. I have > > come to the idea that my daughter has BPD rather > > late. She is 39. > > > > I started to write this as a much longer post but > > to keep it > > short(er), I will come up with the question that is > > in my mind. Or > > questions. > > > > I am wondering if some people's development of BPD > > is later than > > others? Or are there always early signs that as > > mothers some of us > > miss early on due to denial? > > > > My mother has BPD. From what I know of her history, > > I know that she > > began to have more serious problems when she was > > 30. That was when she > > first saw a psychiatrist. Or the first that I know > > about definitely. > > But one of her brothers told me that she had done > > some strange things > > when she was younger. > > > > There is also the possibility that my daughter has > > Narcissistic > > Personality Disorder. I am aware of some of the > > differences between > > BPD and NPD. Does anyone here have an opinion on > > what might make it > > more clear which is which? BPD or NPD? Or can they > > be a lot alike? > > > > Ginny > > > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Thank you, Blondie and Deborah, for trying to answer my question about NPD & BPD. I'm aware of the basic characteristics of both disorders but there seems to be some overlapping. Both disorders involve such self absorption. BPD seems to be more chaotic and dramatic. What you said, Deborah, about the twisting the truth is interesting. Turning puzzle pieces upsidedown and then back together so that the result is different but has elements of truth there. Just hard to find it in the rearranged mess. My daughter does that with the truth. She also seems to love to exaggerate things to the point where they are no longer true at all. Earlier today an online friend sent me a link to a newspaper article about a book written by Love's mother. I'll include the link in this post. One thing that interested me in the article, among many things, was a story about how would tell everyone that she was forced to live in a chicken coop. But it wasn't really a chicken coop. It was a nice little redwood cabin constructed on the site of where a chicken coop used to be. I wonder if has BPD? The link to the newspaper article is: http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0612/courtney-love.php Ginny > > > > > What an interesting question Ginny. Below is just > > what I found from the > > websites... based on NPD vs. BPD, but you may > > already know all this.. sorry if > > it's redundant. > > > > I haven't known many who were diagnosed NPD... > > I am not even sure when NPD was first diagnosed. > > Was it before BPD? Gosh > > all these disorders sound like alphabet soup, don't > > they? > > > > Blondie > > > > Here is what one site had to say about NPD ::: > > > > Characteristics and Traits > > A person diagnosed with the Narcissistic Personality > > Disorder (NPD) feels > > grandiose and self-important. He tends to > > exaggerates his accomplishments, > > talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to > > the point of lying. > > > > He also demands to be recognized as superior > > without commensurate > > achievements. > > > > Narcissists are obsessed with fantasies of > > unlimited success, fame, fearsome > > power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the > > cerebral narcissist), > > bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic > > narcissist), or ideal, > > everlasting, all-conquering love or passion. > > > > They are firmly convinced that he or she is unique > > and, being special, can > > only be understood by, should only be treated by, > > or associate with, other > > special or unique, or high-status people (or > > institutions). > > > > The narcissist requires excessive admiration, > > adulation, attention and > > affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared > > and to be notorious. Such > > feedback is known as narcissistic supply and the > > narcissist uses it to regulate > > his labile sense of self-worth. > > > > The narcissist feels entitled. He demands automatic > > and full compliance with > > his unreasonable expectations for special and > > favorable priority treatment. > > A a result, he is often " interpersonally > > exploitative " , i.e., uses others to > > achieve his or her own ends; > > > > Narcissists lack empathy. They are unable or > > unwilling to identify with, > > acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, > > preferences, priorities, and choices > > of others. > > > > They are constantly envious of others and seek to > > hurt or destroy the > > objects of their resulting frustration. They suffer > > from persecutory (paranoid) > > delusions because they believe that others feel the > > same about them - seething > > with envy and resentment - and are likely to act on > > these negative sentiments. > > > > > > The narcissist is arrogant and haughty. He feels > > superior, omnipotent, > > omniscient, invincible, immune, " above the law " , and > > omnipresent (magical > > thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or > > confronted by people he considers > > inferior to him and unworthy. > > > > > > BPD Characteristics ::: > > > > > > Characteristics and Traits > > The Borderline personality disorder, often diagnosed > > among women, is one of > > the most contentious mental health diagnoses. > > Borderlines are characterized > > by stormy, short-lived, and unstable relationships - > > matched by wildly > > fluctuating (labile) self-image and emotional > > expression (affect). > > > > Borderlines are impulsive and reckless - their > > sexual conduct is frequently > > unsafe, they binge eat, gamble, drive, and shop > > carelessly, and are substance > > abusers. > > They are also often characterized by > > self-destructive and self-defeating > > behaviors, such as suicidal ideation, suicide > > attempts, gestures, or threats, > > and self-mutilation or self-injury. > > > > Borderlines are terrified of being abandoned. They > > make frantic - and, > > usually, counterproductive - efforts to preempt or > > prevent abandonment, both real > > and imagined, by their nearest and dearest. > > Clinging, codependent acts are > > followed by idealization and then swift and > > merciless devaluation of the > > Borderline's partner. > > > > This ever-present anxiety is connected to the > > Borderline's need for constant > > affirmation to support her gyrating sense of > > self-worth and her chaotic > > self-image. In this, the Borderline is akin to the > > narcissist, always on the > > prowl for " narcissistic supply " to shore up > > serious, marked, persistent, and > > ubiquitous deficits in self-esteem and Ego > > functions and to counter the gnawing > > emptiness at his or her core. > > > > Hence the Borderline's mood reactivity. She shifts > > dizzyingly between > > dysphoria (sadness or depression) and euphoria, > > manic self-confidence and > > paralyzing anxiety, irritability and indifference. > > This is reminiscent of the mood > > swings of Bipolar Disorder patients. But > > Borderlines are much angrier and more > > violent. They usually get into physical fights, > > throw temper tantrums, and > > have frightening rage attacks. > > > > When stressed, many Borderlines become psychotic, > > though only briefly > > (psychotic micro-episodes), or develop transient > > paranoid ideation and ideas of > > reference (the erroneous conviction that one is the > > focus of derision and > > malicious gossip). Dissociative symptoms are not > > uncommon ( " losing " stretches of > > time, or objects, and forgetting events or facts > > with emotional content). > > > > In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:42:11 A.M. Central > > Standard Time, > > imajgin@... writes: > > > > I've been reading the posts for several days now > > and haven't been > > responding to posts yet as I'm new here and my > > daughter, who may have > > BPD, is older than most of yours. I wish I was > > smart enough to offer > > more support and advice on the circumstances of > > many of you. I have > > come to the idea that my daughter has BPD rather > > late. She is 39. > > > > I started to write this as a much longer post but > > to keep it > > short(er), I will come up with the question that is > > in my mind. Or > > questions. > > > > I am wondering if some people's development of BPD > > is later than > > others? Or are there always early signs that as > > mothers some of us > > miss early on due to denial? > > > > My mother has BPD. From what I know of her history, > > I know that she > > began to have more serious problems when she was > > 30. That was when she > > first saw a psychiatrist. Or the first that I know > > about definitely. > > But one of her brothers told me that she had done > > some strange things > > when she was younger. > > > > There is also the possibility that my daughter has > > Narcissistic > > Personality Disorder. I am aware of some of the > > differences between > > BPD and NPD. Does anyone here have an opinion on > > what might make it > > more clear which is which? BPD or NPD? Or can they > > be a lot alike? > > > > Ginny > > > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 I want to read the book. I'd never thought of my daughter as anything like Love but the description of being in contact and then getting smashed rings a bell. With my daughter it seems as though it all started later than it did with and without that much drama. I would describe contact with my daughter currently, when it happens, as being in the presence of a toxin. I haven't been letting her smash me. I feel like she is emanating a toxin. The contact hasn't been in person. Only online. The history of the women on Love's mother's side was fascinating. In my family, there was something going on with my maternal grandmother who was institutionalized for a time. Then my mother. Now my daughter. Ginny > > > > > > > > > > > What an interesting question Ginny. Below is > > just > > > > what I found from the > > > > websites... based on NPD vs. BPD, but you may > > > > already know all this.. sorry if > > > > it's redundant. > > > > > > > > I haven't known many who were diagnosed NPD... > > > > I am not even sure when NPD was first diagnosed. > > > > > > Was it before BPD? Gosh > > > > all these disorders sound like alphabet soup, > > don't > > > > they? > > > > > > > > Blondie > > > > > > > > Here is what one site had to say about NPD ::: > > > > > > > > Characteristics and Traits > > > > A person diagnosed with the Narcissistic > > Personality > > > > Disorder (NPD) feels > > > > grandiose and self-important. He tends to > > > > exaggerates his accomplishments, > > > > talents, skills, contacts, and personality > > traits to > > > > the point of lying. > > > > > > > > He also demands to be recognized as superior > > > > without commensurate > > > > achievements. > > > > > > > > Narcissists are obsessed with fantasies of > > > > unlimited success, fame, fearsome > > > > power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance > > (the > > > > cerebral narcissist), > > > > bodily beauty or sexual performance (the > > somatic > > > > narcissist), or ideal, > > > > everlasting, all-conquering love or passion. > > > > > > > > They are firmly convinced that he or she is > > unique > > > > and, being special, can > > > > only be understood by, should only be treated > > by, > > > > or associate with, other > > > > special or unique, or high-status people (or > > > > institutions). > > > > > > > > The narcissist requires excessive admiration, > > > > adulation, attention and > > > > affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be > > feared > > > > and to be notorious. Such > > > > feedback is known as narcissistic supply and > > the > > > > narcissist uses it to regulate > > > > his labile sense of self-worth. > > > > > > > > The narcissist feels entitled. He demands > > automatic > > > > and full compliance with > > > > his unreasonable expectations for special and > > > > favorable priority treatment. > > > > A a result, he is often " interpersonally > > > > exploitative " , i.e., uses others to > > > > achieve his or her own ends; > > > > > > > > Narcissists lack empathy. They are unable or > > > > unwilling to identify with, > > > > acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, > > > > preferences, priorities, and choices > > > > of others. > > > > > > > > They are constantly envious of others and seek > > to > > > > hurt or destroy the > > > > objects of their resulting frustration. They > > suffer > > > > from persecutory (paranoid) > > > > delusions because they believe that others feel > > the > > > > same about them - seething > > > > with envy and resentment - and are likely to > > act on > > > > these negative sentiments. > > > > > > > > > > > > The narcissist is arrogant and haughty. He feels > > > > superior, omnipotent, > > > > omniscient, invincible, immune, " above the law " , > > and > > > > omnipresent (magical > > > > thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, > > or > > > > confronted by people he considers > > > > inferior to him and unworthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > BPD Characteristics ::: > > > > > > > > > > > > Characteristics and Traits > > > > The Borderline personality disorder, often > > diagnosed > > > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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