Re: Genetic with different brains...Rivka...please answer

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/16/2005 11:48:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,

ezcmezwent@... writes:

<...BP's WILL be BP's FOREVER, until medicated with

the right medication ( I have seen normal behavior

return with medication ) They can not " learn " to not

be Borderline because you can not learn not to be

something that the frontal lobe dysfunction and

abnormality in your brain causes you to be. >

,

I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior with lots of boundaries,

rules, making contracts, sitting her down and having good heart-to-hearts AND

increasing the level of seratonin in her brain, which is the chemical

naturally produced in our bodies that is crucial to our psychological well

being. I

truly believe that the chemical imbalance in her brain caused her

confusion/pain which led to her terrible behaviors. But first, she genetically

suffers

from depression, then whatever the trauma did to her brain, triggered the

resulting lesser seratonin levels produced in her brain. The cutting these kids

do,

like posted here earlier, does release endorphins which is the chemical that

our body naturally produces to overcome pain. Interesting watching and reading

this go back and forth..........

Debbie

[Guest guest]

<...I think Rivka is really in a position to know what

she is talking about . >

Alison,

OK..lets ask Rivka to respond to this.

Rivka...is Alison right...in 20 years...NONE of your

BPs recovered to the point of not requiring meds?

<...BP's WILL be BP's FOREVER, until medicated with

the right medication ( I have seen normal behavior

return with medication ) They can not " learn " to not

be Borderline because you can not learn not to be

something that the frontal lobe dysfunction and

abnormality in your brain causes you to be. >

You are saying that DBT therapy cannot work...that

only meds can keep them behaving within reason....DBT

is a sham?

I recall an article...about students in instrumental

music..that after a few years their brains

beneficially changing shape as they learned music.

Or another one about possibly preventing

Alheimers...by encouraging younger seniors to learn a

musical instrument...or a second language.

I guess those are crap too.

--- itsalison2@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/16/2005 7:41:51 AM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> WTOParentsOfBPs writes:

>

> > If someone says BPD is genetic...they are saying

> BPs

> > will be BPs forever...or at least until we learn

> how

> > to change a person's genes.

> >

> > If BPD is a choice...there is hope they can learn

> to

> > not be a BP.

> >

>

> From what I have read and more importantly what I

> have seen, BPD definately

> has a genetic basis and is passed on in family

> lines. - BP's WILL be BP's

> FOREVER, until medicated with the right medication (

> I have seen normal behavior

> return with medication ) They can not " learn " to

> not be Borderline because

> you can not learn not to be something that the

> frontal lobe dysfunction and

> abnormality in your brain causes you to be. - Many

> neurologists have said BP

> episodes are very similar to seizures and convulsive

> disorders. Epileptics have

> warnings ( auras etc) and can often decrease the

> severity of an impending

> seizure if they are aware it is comming on. Perhaps

> Borderlines can be taught to do

> this too and short circuit an oncomming episode by

> derailing their own

> impending emotional storm. Environment can teach

> and support dysfunctional

> behavior, but no one can voluntarily propel

> themselves into borderline rages (

> frontal lobe brain seizures ? ) and other out of

> control behaviors. Environment does

> not shape the frontal lobe of the brain and its

> functions, but genetics can.

> I think Rivka is really in a position to know what

> she is talking about .

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/16/2005 2:33:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ezcmezwent@... writes:

Raising seratonin levels for a few people may only

require eating turkey sandwiches rather than peanut

butter and jelly.

Working on this too, .

" Lol...from what you posted...you're supposed to be on

my side instead of just watching. "

I am, I am............ I'm responding too with my two cents worth.

All have a great weekend.

Debbie L.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/16/2005 2:33:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ezcmezwent@... writes:

Congrats!

IMO...that says a lot about you

Thanx, , I'm proud of my self too.

" From what I've learned...Seratonin levels can

sometimes be altered without splicing genes...or

reorting to life-long drug use. "

I have a natural supplement for her to take. Like taking vitamins. It

enhances her mood,

helps her balance out her appetite and something else I forget. I have to

look at the bottle.

Debbie L.

[Guest guest]

<...Interesting watching and reading this go back and

forth..........>

Debbie,

Lol...from what you posted...you're supposed to be on

my side instead of just watching.

<...I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior

with lots of boundaries, rules, making contracts,

sitting her down and having good heart-to-hearts AND

increasing the level of seratonin in her brain, which

is the chemical naturally produced in our bodies that

is crucial to our psychological well being. >

Congrats!

IMO...that says a lot about you, and the rest of her

support group.

That is my wife's story too.

From what I've learned...Seratonin levels can

sometimes be altered without splicing genes...or

reorting to life-long drug use.

Raising seratonin levels for a few people may only

require eating turkey sandwiches rather than peanut

butter and jelly.

--- funnygirl1154@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/16/2005 11:48:24 AM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> ezcmezwent@... writes:

> <...BP's WILL be BP's FOREVER, until medicated with

> the right medication ( I have seen normal behavior

> return with medication ) They can not " learn " to

> not

> be Borderline because you can not learn not to be

> something that the frontal lobe dysfunction and

> abnormality in your brain causes you to be. >

> ,

> I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior

> with lots of boundaries,

> rules, making contracts, sitting her down and having

> good heart-to-hearts AND

> increasing the level of seratonin in her brain,

> which is the chemical

> naturally produced in our bodies that is crucial to

> our psychological well being. I

> truly believe that the chemical imbalance in her

> brain caused her

> confusion/pain which led to her terrible behaviors.

> But first, she genetically suffers

> from depression, then whatever the trauma did to her

> brain, triggered the

> resulting lesser seratonin levels produced in her

> brain. The cutting these kids do,

> like posted here earlier, does release endorphins

> which is the chemical that

> our body naturally produces to overcome pain.

> Interesting watching and reading

> this go back and forth..........

> Debbie

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

I've been interested also in reading the " back and forth " discussions

regarding nature vs. nurture.

Here's my take on it -- and my son's personal story in a nutshell.

Depression/bipolar runs on one side of my family. Hence - " genetic

predisposition " . I have an older sister who is a high-functioning,

undiagnosed NP/BP. From a very early age - about 18 mo. son was a

challenge. We called him hyper. In hindsight I also see impulsiveness.

This type of behavior caused his dad and I stress. He was difficult to take

places - and difficult to begin to socialize with other children. He wasn't

mean or anything - just didn't listen, and often bounced off the walls so to

speak. This was in the day and age sugar was blamed for excess energy in

kids. So - we tried to make sure he didn't overload on it.

We started to have trouble keeping babysitters when he was around the age of

4 or 5. He wouldn't listen to them - caused havoc with other children - was

very black and white in his attitudes. For instance - if the babysitter had

to discipline him - he'd hold it against her for a long, long time, and as a

5 yr. old had no way of hiding it. He didn't seem to be able to " read " the

unspoken body language we all need to observe to get along in the world.

It seems I was forever looking for new babysitters, based on his acceptance

of/or acceptance by those watching him and his younger sister. (Who, by the

way, has had issues with depression herself, but so signs of BPD). She was

never any problem as a child/teen.

This type of background obviously frustrated his Dad and I. We were always

talking with him regarding why he didn't get along in these places. I can

see now how that would have had an impact on his developing self-esteem. So

" environment " began to shape him. He began to feel victimized, because

" everyone hated him " , and he didn't connect his actions to any of the

negative

consequences, as he just didn't get it.

In his school years, we always dreaded the parent/teacher interviews. He's

incredibly intelligent, but his BP traits were just mild enough then to

cause problems, but not bad enough to get him any help.

What DID happen was that my husband and I (but especially me as the

mother)were often viewed as being lacking in something or other -- after all

-- everyone knows kids that don't behave aren't being raised " properly " .

MY self-esteem as a mother took a beating because of this - and my husband,

generally speaking,

became an " absent but present " father. That's to say - he was around - but

just didn't know how to relate to our son. We were walking on eggshells

...... We loved him dearly, still do, and tried to always let him know how

much. We just couldn't understand WHY he didn't see that his black & white

thinking was harming him. In fact, on a report card from the 5th grade, his

teacher commented that he seemed unable to learn from the suggestions of

others. He believed he was right, and that was that.

What came first - the chicken or egg ???? Well ....... I see in our family

the genetic " flaw " was there from the start. Our son's behavior began

BEFORE the environment became unfriendly to him.

However, lack of diagnosis, treatment, or even awareness this wasn't caused

by choices our son made knowingly caused his environment to become an

unsupportive one to him.

Genetics put him on the BP path, and until he educates himself about how his

words, thinking, choices affect his future he'll be unable to make changes.

However, I've become educated !!! As Dr. Phil says " you've gotta name it

to claim it " . Had I know way back when WHY my son " tended " to act as he

did, I believe 100% I would have done things differently, and possibly his

life would be different now. That is why I believe it's very important for

people to know genetics are at the root of this disorder. (My opinion)

Joan

----Original Message Follows----

Reply-To: WTOParentsOfBPs

To: WTOParentsOfBPs

Subject: Re: Genetic with different

brains...Rivka...please answer

Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:31:31 -0700 (PDT)

<...Interesting watching and reading this go back and

forth..........>

Debbie,

Lol...from what you posted...you're supposed to be on

my side instead of just watching.

<...I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior

with lots of boundaries, rules, making contracts,

sitting her down and having good heart-to-hearts AND

increasing the level of seratonin in her brain, which

is the chemical naturally produced in our bodies that

is crucial to our psychological well being. >

Congrats!

IMO...that says a lot about you, and the rest of her

support group.

That is my wife's story too.

From what I've learned...Seratonin levels can

sometimes be altered without splicing genes...or

reorting to life-long drug use.

Raising seratonin levels for a few people may only

require eating turkey sandwiches rather than peanut

butter and jelly.

--- funnygirl1154@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/16/2005 11:48:24 AM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> ezcmezwent@... writes:

> <...BP's WILL be BP's FOREVER, until medicated with

> the right medication ( I have seen normal behavior

> return with medication ) They can not " learn " to

> not

> be Borderline because you can not learn not to be

> something that the frontal lobe dysfunction and

> abnormality in your brain causes you to be. >

> ,

> I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior

> with lots of boundaries,

> rules, making contracts, sitting her down and having

> good heart-to-hearts AND

> increasing the level of seratonin in her brain,

> which is the chemical

> naturally produced in our bodies that is crucial to

> our psychological well being. I

> truly believe that the chemical imbalance in her

> brain caused her

> confusion/pain which led to her terrible behaviors.

> But first, she genetically suffers

> from depression, then whatever the trauma did to her

> brain, triggered the

> resulting lesser seratonin levels produced in her

> brain. The cutting these kids do,

> like posted here earlier, does release endorphins

> which is the chemical that

> our body naturally produces to overcome pain.

> Interesting watching and reading

> this go back and forth..........

> Debbie

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Joan -

I agree with you that genetics play a role. I'm not sure much would have been

that different for our bp. If we were " walking on eggshells " sooner because we

were trying to ward off what was going to happen, I'm not sure the results would

be much different.

We do everything we can do for our kids to help them in life and in school.

There are some lessons they need to learn on their own -- some of them relate to

bulding their own self esteem and from cause and effect.

Let's not beat up on ourselves as parents -- I'm sure we all did the best we

could do. Given the knowledge we have now, and as some of our kids grow into

adulthood, we can adjust our interaction with our kids to make sure we are not

enabling and to be as level as possible with them. I don't think it helps to be

overly confrontational, although I hold my ground and if I feel something is not

right, I do let my daughter know even when I know she will be unhappy about it.

Recently, most of this has to do with her asking me for money. She didn't want

to live with us and cannot live on her own. I couldn't support some of her ways

while she was here and I certainly won't support them financially when she has

her own place.

I used to feel she was making (poor) choices that made her life harder. She

still does but I'm not sure she can really think things through for the

long-term.

Carol

--------- Re: Genetic with different

> brains...Rivka...please answer

> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:31:31 -0700 (PDT)

>

> <...Interesting watching and reading this go back and

> forth..........>

>

> Debbie,

>

> Lol...from what you posted...you're supposed to be on

> my side instead of just watching.

>

>

>

> <...I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior

> with lots of boundaries, rules, making contracts,

> sitting her down and having good heart-to-hearts AND

> increasing the level of seratonin in her brain, which

> is the chemical naturally produced in our bodies that

> is crucial to our psychological well being. >

>

> Congrats!

>

> IMO...that says a lot about you, and the rest of her

> support group.

>

> That is my wife's story too.

>

> From what I've learned...Seratonin levels can

> sometimes be altered without splicing genes...or

> reorting to life-long drug use.

>

> Raising seratonin levels for a few people may only

> require eating turkey sandwiches rather than peanut

> butter and jelly.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- funnygirl1154@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 9/16/2005 11:48:24 AM Eastern

> > Standard Time,

> > ezcmezwent@... writes:

> > <...BP's WILL be BP's FOREVER, until medicated with

> > the right medication ( I have seen normal behavior

> > return with medication ) They can not " learn " to

> > not

> > be Borderline because you can not learn not to be

> > something that the frontal lobe dysfunction and

> > abnormality in your brain causes you to be. >

> > ,

> > I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior

> > with lots of boundaries,

> > rules, making contracts, sitting her down and having

> > good heart-to-hearts AND

> > increasing the level of seratonin in her brain,

> > which is the chemical

> > naturally produced in our bodies that is crucial to

> > our psychological well being. I

> > truly believe that the chemical imbalance in her

> > brain caused her

> > confusion/pain which led to her terrible behaviors.

> > But first, she genetically suffers

> > from depression, then whatever the trauma did to her

> > brain, triggered the

> > resulting lesser seratonin levels produced in her

> > brain. The cutting these kids do,

> > like posted here earlier, does release endorphins

> > which is the chemical that

> > our body naturally produces to overcome pain.

> > Interesting watching and reading

> > this go back and forth..........

> > Debbie

> >

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________

> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

> http://mail.yahoo.com

>

>

>

>

> People joining this list must read the guidelines and agree to them before

> posting. Send questions or concerns to WelcomeToOz-owner .

" Stop

> Walking on Eggshells " , a primer for non-BPs, and " Hope for Parents: Helping

Your

> Borderline Son or Daughter Without Sacrificing Your Family Or Yourself " can be

> ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL (). For table of contents, go to

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie L,

What is the supplement? I am a firm believer what you eat affects your moods.

Can't get that one across. My daugher brags she doesn't exercise (no serotonins

being released), loves her sugar and caffeine.

Carol

-------------- Original message --------------

> In a message dated 9/16/2005 2:33:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> ezcmezwent@... writes:

> Congrats!

>

> IMO...that says a lot about you

> Thanx, , I'm proud of my self too.

>

> " From what I've learned...Seratonin levels can

> sometimes be altered without splicing genes...or

> reorting to life-long drug use. "

>

>

> I have a natural supplement for her to take. Like taking vitamins. It

> enhances her mood,

> helps her balance out her appetite and something else I forget. I have to

> look at the bottle.

>

> Debbie L.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

I read your post with interest, and agree with you. As you know, our

daughters are very similar, and we have noticed the same thing -

that depression is the overriding problem, (also anxiety). I think

you would find that most of these bp's are dual diagnosis. It would

be impossible to make any kind of black and white statement about

causes or cures. There are so many manifestations of symptoms,

levels of severity, etc.

Genetics, head injury, environment - it is doubtful that any single

one is the cause. And for whom? Some may have bpd more genetically,

some from abusive environment. I believe Rivka stated there are

physical signs in the brain of BPD (whatever the cause), that to me

indicates that this is definitely a physical disease. It is hard to

hold anyone accountable for having a disease on the one hand. On the

other hand, behavior has consequences. So the bp must learn to cope

with reality and curb their (re)actions in order to get better.

In our case, meds have been a lifesaver. Our daughter is living a

normal life on her own at this time. I think family stability and

structure, as you have stated, are also an immense help to those

trying to recover.

Carolyn

> In a message dated 9/16/2005 11:48:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> ezcmezwent@y... writes:

> <...BP's WILL be BP's FOREVER, until medicated with

> the right medication ( I have seen normal behavior

> return with medication ) They can not " learn " to not

> be Borderline because you can not learn not to be

> something that the frontal lobe dysfunction and

> abnormality in your brain causes you to be. >

> ,

> I have a BP daughter returned to normal behavior with lots of

boundaries,

> rules, making contracts, sitting her down and having good heart-to-

hearts AND

> increasing the level of seratonin in her brain, which is the

chemical

> naturally produced in our bodies that is crucial to our

psychological well being. I

> truly believe that the chemical imbalance in her brain caused her

> confusion/pain which led to her terrible behaviors. But first,

she genetically suffers

> from depression, then whatever the trauma did to her brain,

triggered the

> resulting lesser seratonin levels produced in her brain. The

cutting these kids do,

> like posted here earlier, does release endorphins which is the

chemical that

> our body naturally produces to overcome pain. Interesting

watching and reading

> this go back and forth..........

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/17/2005 10:32:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,

bosoxfan199@... writes:

What is the supplement? I am a firm believer what you eat affects your

moods.

Carol,

It's a formula called 5-HTP made by Natrol. I myself take Natrol's

Complete Balance for menapause. The link is

http://www.natrol.com/products/product.php. It's a little pricy online, I

bought it in Shop Rite for about $10.

Debbie