RE: Lies and distortions of reality

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, pj7@...

writes:

Edie and all,

This is very much like our son's fiancee's notions of our family. I would be

most interested in feedback on how to deal with this. It is real hard for me

to think there is nothing we can do to correct their distorted perspective.

I look forward to others' thoughts on this.

Thanks,

PJ

PJ,

I don't think that you need to justify yourselves to your son's fiancee.

Actually, I think it might be a futile effort as they aren't communicating with

you. There really is nothing you can do to convince her otherwise of your

situation as she is with him and truly believes what he tells her. I would be

willing to guess that if she doubts anything he tells her, that she would have

taken it upon herself to contact you to get the true story. How you deal with

this situation is to let it go and move on with your life without these daily

worries and frustrations. Your son in time may come around, but it will be

his doing, not from being provoked into it. I know it is sad and hard for all

involved, the waiting and hoping. He's a big boy, and unless his thinking

process changes and he realizes what he's done in sabatoging his relationships,

he

won't come around until that happens. I have found over the years, the more

I pushed, the further away I got. When I let go and stopped pushing, I made

progress.

Makes sense. Do you remember when raising your children, the more you told

them you didn't like a particular friend of theirs, that you didn't want them

associating with them, the more they would? I found letting my daughter learn

for herself that some friends were bad, she would in time see for herself.

Makes them feel good when they come to their own realizations, without having

mom say " I told you so " .

Hope this helps.

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

PJ

NO.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/3/2006 1:27:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, pj7@...

writes:

My real question though, was more general - can we ever succeed in

presenting a rational argument to borderlines that will help them stablize

and be logical?

PJ

First, I still think your efforts in trying to justify yourself to your son

is futile. It doesn't matter what you write or send him, it won't make a

difference until he gets his thinking pattern straightened out. You can't

change

his thinking, no matter what you write.

He won't be reading what you write, he will be reading what he thinks.

You won't get anywhere until his thinking changes.

You can succeed in presenting a rational argument, I wouldn't call it that,

when his thinking is back to normal. It won't be an argument. It will be his

realization of the truth, when he is better. Your argument won't stabilize

him. Changing his thinking pattern is the only thing that will get him to

realize what he has been perceiving as wrong. The trauma in his past is what

has

triggered his chemical imbalance, and until he's balanced again, and he is

thinking rationally, nothing you write, say, do, will make him better. He will

think logically again when he snaps out of the imbalance he is currently

experiencing.

I know it's hard, and easier said than done. Makes you feel guilty, like you

are disowning them or abandoning them. But you have to remember, who left

who here? He chose to run, you didn't push him away. My daughter and I have

succeeded in getting her on the road to recovery. It can happen. They can get

better. They have to want to. Even when he does get better, don't expect

that you will be sitting down in a pow wow, hashing out all that made him run in

the first place. Right now trying to write your son about how your husband

and other son are standing behind you, well, that's going to be perceived by him

as a gang up on him. Do you really think telling him that is going to make a

difference? I think not.

My daughter could have cared less who else besides me was thinking along the

same lines

as me. If your son thinks you are bad, then he thinks your husband, your

son, and anyone else out there is too. He's the only good one, because, you

see,

there is nothing wrong with him!

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/3/2006 3:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, pj7@...

writes:

So I guess what I am asking is, wouldn't logic make an impact on him as long

as it was facts, and not defensive?

PJ

I'm wondering why even try and bother when he is the one staying away and not

responding to your correspondence.

Your son KNOWS the facts. He was living at home when the things with his

brother, and the thing with your doctor took place, right? You don't think he

suffered from trauma back then? And just didn't show it? Maybe he kept it all

in and just kept it all pent up inside, now being released and affecting him?

Or do you just think that his fiancee is keeping him from having a

relationship with you because of what she perceives as having happened to him?

In any

event, I would think if he doesn't want a relationship with your family, you

will be hard pressed to make him, no matter what the facts are. My thinking is

that you have a failed relationship with him because HE doesn't want it. I

say again, you can do all the letter writing to him you want, he won't respond

no matter what you tell him if he doesn't want to. I think if he thought he

didn't have his facts straight, and he is mentally okay, then he would have

initiated contact with you by now. Who knows what down the road will bring.

How do you know for sure that you don't have a relationship with him because

of you?

Maybe SHE is so nuts he doesn't want anyone in his family involved with her

at all. If she is the one that thinks you are bad, then he is just passifying

her by staying away from you. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with you

at all.

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

Edie and all,

This is very much like our son's fiancee's notions of our family. I would be

most interested in feedback on how to deal with this. It is real hard for me

to think there is nothing we can do to correct their distorted perspective.

I look forward to others' thoughts on this.

Thanks,

PJ

My daughter will be 20 years old soon. She actually prides herself on what

she calls " being honest " and I do believe that she feels that she is

honest.

She has never stolen from me or cheated. In her case, I feel that her

reality is distorted. She just perceives things differently. Her

stories (which

others would perceive as a lie) are mostly about injustices done to her,

or

people being mean to her. She has been this way since she was child when

she

would tell me that all the other kids were being mean to her, or people

were

looking at her funny. She wasn't lying or making up stories. This was

her

perception of her reality. I have not lost trust and faith in her

because of

it. I understand that her reality is different and is painful for her.

I too have been the brunt of some of her distorted perceptions. Mostly

in

the way of saying that she felt neglected, especially during the years of

the

bitter divorce. I don't take offense at this, although I know it is not

the

case, because I understand that she is not " lying " . It is just her own

painful perception. You can't talk them out of believing that reality.

It's

theirs and it is a part of them. I don't tell her " no, that's not the

truth "

because to her, it is truly the way she felt. I try (as DBT would say)

to

acknowledge her perception by saying that I am so sorry she may have felt

that way

because I love her with all my heart. This acknowledgement that she may

have felt that way is usually enough to help her through it.

Edie

[Guest guest]

PJ

I have seen with my own son, whom I thought was stable, being taken over by

a female. I don't know what spells they hold over these guys, but when they

say jump, the guys ask, " How high, dear? " I wish I had had that kind of

control over my ex and could have had HIM jumping thru hoops.

So, it may just be that your son will do ANYTHING to keep his girlfriend

happy and if that means ousting you from his life and then (in his own mind)

trying to justify it, then perhaps that is what he is doing.

Just a thought.

You know what they say, " Every dog has his day " .

Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi DebbieL,

I agree. We have no intention of justifying ourselves to her. I've been

thinking more along the lines of sharing my experience of how my husband and

other son have stood by me and helped me emotionally in the past five

years - writing this to my son - not to the fiancee.

BTW I never ever criticized their friends or their girlfriends - ever. That

is a risky business. But, actually, our sons never had friends I had any

reason to criticize. That is what makes this current mess so bizarre. It is

so totally out of character for our son to do this to us and to allow his

fiancee to trash us. He has bought into her perspective for whatever reason.

My real question though, was more general - can we ever succeed in

presenting a rational argument to borderlines that will help them stablize

and be logical?

PJ

In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, pj7@...

writes:

Edie and all,

This is very much like our son's fiancee's notions of our family. I would

be

most interested in feedback on how to deal with this. It is real hard for

me

to think there is nothing we can do to correct their distorted

perspective.

I look forward to others' thoughts on this.

Thanks,

PJ

PJ,

I don't think that you need to justify yourselves to your son's fiancee.

Actually, I think it might be a futile effort as they aren't communicating

with

you. There really is nothing you can do to convince her otherwise of your

situation as she is with him and truly believes what he tells her. I

would be

willing to guess that if she doubts anything he tells her, that she would

have

taken it upon herself to contact you to get the true story. How you deal

with

this situation is to let it go and move on with your life without these

daily

worries and frustrations. Your son in time may come around, but it will

be

his doing, not from being provoked into it. I know it is sad and hard for

all

involved, the waiting and hoping. He's a big boy, and unless his thinking

process changes and he realizes what he's done in sabatoging his

relationships, he

won't come around until that happens. I have found over the years, the

more

I pushed, the further away I got. When I let go and stopped pushing, I

made

progress.

Makes sense. Do you remember when raising your children, the more you

told

them you didn't like a particular friend of theirs, that you didn't want

them

associating with them, the more they would? I found letting my daughter

learn

for herself that some friends were bad, she would in time see for herself.

Makes them feel good when they come to their own realizations, without

having

mom say " I told you so " .

Hope this helps.

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

You and Jean may be quite correct when the person is borderline. My

situation is a BIT different in that my son never was like this until 27 yrs

old and even then only when under her influence. I know I've written this

before but it is like he is in a cult and has been brain washed.

So I guess what I am asking is, wouldn't logic make an impact on him as long

as it was facts, and not defensive?

PJ

In a message dated 3/3/2006 1:27:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, pj7@...

writes:

My real question though, was more general - can we ever succeed in

presenting a rational argument to borderlines that will help them stablize

and be logical?

PJ

First, I still think your efforts in trying to justify yourself to your

son

is futile. It doesn't matter what you write or send him, it won't make a

difference until he gets his thinking pattern straightened out. You can't

change

his thinking, no matter what you write.

He won't be reading what you write, he will be reading what he thinks.

You won't get anywhere until his thinking changes.

You can succeed in presenting a rational argument, I wouldn't call it

that,

when his thinking is back to normal. It won't be an argument. It will be

his

realization of the truth, when he is better. Your argument won't

stabilize

him. Changing his thinking pattern is the only thing that will get him to

realize what he has been perceiving as wrong. The trauma in his past is

what has

triggered his chemical imbalance, and until he's balanced again, and he is

thinking rationally, nothing you write, say, do, will make him better. He

will

think logically again when he snaps out of the imbalance he is currently

experiencing.

I know it's hard, and easier said than done. Makes you feel guilty, like

you

are disowning them or abandoning them. But you have to remember, who left

who here? He chose to run, you didn't push him away. My daughter and I

have

succeeded in getting her on the road to recovery. It can happen. They

can get

better. They have to want to. Even when he does get better, don't expect

that you will be sitting down in a pow wow, hashing out all that made him

run in

the first place. Right now trying to write your son about how your

husband

and other son are standing behind you, well, that's going to be perceived

by him

as a gang up on him. Do you really think telling him that is going to

make a

difference? I think not.

My daughter could have cared less who else besides me was thinking along

the

same lines

as me. If your son thinks you are bad, then he thinks your husband, your

son, and anyone else out there is too. He's the only good one, because,

you see,

there is nothing wrong with him!

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

My real question though, was more general - can we ever succeed in

presenting a rational argument to borderlines that will help them stablize

and be logical?

NO, NO, AND EMPHATICALLY NO! That is what you keep hoping for and that is

what will NEVER happen. BPs live in their own world, they are right; YOU

are the one who has something wrong with you. You will never be able to

convince them of anything different. That's it -- that's how the disorder

works.

Kelley C.

PJ pj7@...> wrote:

Hi DebbieL,

I agree. We have no intention of justifying ourselves to her. I've been

thinking more along the lines of sharing my experience of how my husband and

other son have stood by me and helped me emotionally in the past five

years - writing this to my son - not to the fiancee.

BTW I never ever criticized their friends or their girlfriends - ever. That

is a risky business. But, actually, our sons never had friends I had any

reason to criticize. That is what makes this current mess so bizarre. It is

so totally out of character for our son to do this to us and to allow his

fiancee to trash us. He has bought into her perspective for whatever reason.

My real question though, was more general - can we ever succeed in

presenting a rational argument to borderlines that will help them stablize

and be logical?

PJ

In a message dated 3/3/2006 11:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, pj7@...

writes:

Edie and all,

This is very much like our son's fiancee's notions of our family. I would

be

most interested in feedback on how to deal with this. It is real hard for

me

to think there is nothing we can do to correct their distorted

perspective.

I look forward to others' thoughts on this.

Thanks,

PJ

PJ,

I don't think that you need to justify yourselves to your son's fiancee.

Actually, I think it might be a futile effort as they aren't communicating

with

you. There really is nothing you can do to convince her otherwise of your

situation as she is with him and truly believes what he tells her. I

would be

willing to guess that if she doubts anything he tells her, that she would

have

taken it upon herself to contact you to get the true story. How you deal

with

this situation is to let it go and move on with your life without these

daily

worries and frustrations. Your son in time may come around, but it will

be

his doing, not from being provoked into it. I know it is sad and hard for

all

involved, the waiting and hoping. He's a big boy, and unless his thinking

process changes and he realizes what he's done in sabatoging his

relationships, he

won't come around until that happens. I have found over the years, the

more

I pushed, the further away I got. When I let go and stopped pushing, I

made

progress.

Makes sense. Do you remember when raising your children, the more you

told

them you didn't like a particular friend of theirs, that you didn't want

them

associating with them, the more they would? I found letting my daughter

learn

for herself that some friends were bad, she would in time see for herself.

Makes them feel good when they come to their own realizations, without

having

mom say " I told you so " .

Hope this helps.

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

Does anyone on this list have an experience where a borderline listened to

logic and changed? Seems to me I remember reading that some of your family

members have come around.

PJ

My real question though, was more general - can we ever succeed in

presenting a rational argument to borderlines that will help them stablize

and be logical?

NO, NO, AND EMPHATICALLY NO! That is what you keep hoping for and that

is what will NEVER happen. BPs live in their own world, they are right;

YOU are the one who has something wrong with you. You will never be able to

convince them of anything different. That's it -- that's how the disorder

works.

Kelley C.

[Guest guest]

Dear Frances,

What are SPECT x-rays? Anyway, I'll be praying your

daughter decides to follow up on that and get some

help.

Deborah

> I had SPECT x-rays done on my daughter. We

> received the first results Thursday. She is still in

> shock that there is anything wrong with her. The

> test shows physical injury to parts of her brain. I

> do not know if she will follow through with seeking

> help to over come her problems. She goes back to

> her doctor Friday to discuss this report. I pray

> she will not go back in to denial for her problems.

> Frances

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Dear Edie,

my daughter to (lies) but there is no control your right I agree that they

do belive the things they are saying. Im just now writing because my computer

has been on the fritz. But wanted to let you know my daughter has this same as

yours. I saw a shirt the other day that said trust me and in small print it

said I would'nt lie. thought it was funny.

thanks for listening,

bobbie