Re: Re:Shanara-it's Brainwashing!!

June 7, 2006

Getting my head bitten off after I babysit for all 4 kids or I run an errand

for HER while she is at work. I find this behavior incredulous as well.

Ex.--she wanted me to pay her Blockbuster Video acct today. She lost the

credit card they had for her. She gave me cash to pay it and wanted it done

this

morning before they attempted to put old cc through.

I am sorry, but it is raining like a monsoon here and I planned on doing all

my errands at one time---later today before I pick up my grandsons from

school. I called Blockbuster to ask them to not put the card through because,

at

her request I was coming in to pay them in cash for this month. They told

me they HAD to have a cc. I called her at work to tell her and she started

yelling at me and hung up. Last night, after babysitting the 4 of them so she

could work, when she got home, I told her how cute Emerson had been and she

abruptly told me, " Ya know I'm really tired and have to get to bed " . I felt

like the hired help and she was my boss. Only, I DIDN'T GET PAID !!!!!!! I

love how their rudenrss makes you feel ----I'm not sure what I feel---hurt I

guess.

Jean

June 7, 2006

Helen

I realize that, as usual, this turn of events is my own fault. I had

expectations of her being a normal person and that will never be. I really

wish

she would relinquish her rights to my grandsons and I would take them and move

and not have to deal with her again. If she lost the house, it would be her

problem.

I do believe at my daughter's age, there will be no improvement in her

personality. This is it---saddled with a daughter I can only (sometimes)

tolerate, at best.

Jean

June 7, 2006

In a message dated 6/7/2006 12:23:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cascorsam@... writes:

Last night, after babysitting the 4 of them so she

could work, when she got home, I told her how cute Emerson had been and she

abruptly told me, " Ya know I'm really tired and have to get to bed " . I felt

like the hired help and she was my boss. Only, I DIDN'T GET PAID !!!!!!! I

love how their rudenrss makes you feel ----I'm not sure what I feel---hurt I

guess.

Jean

Jean,

Geez, when does it ever end with her? My response to that would have been,

okay K,

your lack of appreciation is dually noted, find yourself another babysitter,

and then I would have walked out. Of course, you wouldn't mean it, but it

sure would get the ball rolling in her brain!

DebbieL

June 7, 2006

To Shanara and Anyone who has had this manipulation used on them: " Don't you see

your own behavior in this? "

ANGER IS A NORMAL RESPONSE TO THE IMPOSSIBILITY FOR REASON...

BUT IRRATIONAL BLAME AND ANGER ARE NOT NORMAL RESPONSES

Think of the World Trade Center attack. It's justified to get angry at

injustice! Even Jesus got angry! Any one living with this disease is a victim of

injustice!

The tactic of " look at you " is a manipulation called SPLITING in Stop Walking

on Eggshells....a " hall of mirrors " technique used to bait then switch the

responsbility. It's a Brainwashing mechanism.. she hopes will work on you, at

least for a while... to ease your grip on the situation. I think you have a high

functioning adult BPD.. Mine is remarkably ingenious at this!

Re: Grandparents and BPD

Thanks Debbie. I guess maybe I am still having problems letting go.

I dont know how to talk to her....what to say, what to not say, and

still keep a line of communications open. I dont want her to think I

have thrown her to the dogs (so to speak) and still figure out how

to distance myself somehow. I dont believe it has to be black or

white....there has to be a middle ground somehow.

Shanara

>

> In a message dated 6/6/2006 2:50:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> shadoweve@.. . writes:

> She pointedly asked me today, " you dont see yourself in any of the

> books you are reading " ?

> Shanara,

>

> I am sorry you are feeling down today. Things do get better,

it's just a

> waiting game with them, waiting for them to acknowledge their

issues

> themselves. I would have said to my daughter, no, I do not see

myself in any of these

> books. I am not reading them for my own personal benefit. She is

seeing you

> in the books because her thinking patterns are altered, they are

not the same

> as ours. She is the one in denial and won't see herself in the

books.

>

> Your daughter is quite the adult now. I wouldn't drag myself down

trying to

> figure the ins and outs of her. Let her be. You cannot change

her. She can

> only change herself and that won't happen until she acknowledges

that she has

> the problem. I wish you well.

>

> Hugs,

> DebbieL

>

June 7, 2006

You are so much nicer than I am, Jean! I have refused to run any of my

daughter's errands - or babysit, etc. Maybe I'm scared of being caught in

that kind of temper tantrum on her part, and just not willing to pay that

price to show her some love...

Anyway, I am really sorry! And in today's weather, going out to do that kind

of stuff really is a sacrifice.

Helen

_____

From: WTOParentsOfBPs

[mailto:WTOParentsOfBPs ] On Behalf Of cascorsam@...

Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:11 PM

To: WTOParentsOfBPs

Subject: Re: Re:Shanara-it's Brainwashing!!

Getting my head bitten off after I babysit for all 4 kids or I run an errand

for HER while she is at work. I find this behavior incredulous as well.

Ex.--she wanted me to pay her Blockbuster Video acct today. She lost the

credit card they had for her. She gave me cash to pay it and wanted it done

this

morning before they attempted to put old cc through.

I am sorry, but it is raining like a monsoon here and I planned on doing all

my errands at one time---later today before I pick up my grandsons from

school. I called Blockbuster to ask them to not put the card through

because, at

her request I was coming in to pay them in cash for this month. They told

me they HAD to have a cc. I called her at work to tell her and she started

yelling at me and hung up. Last night, after babysitting the 4 of them so

she

could work, when she got home, I told her how cute Emerson had been and she

abruptly told me, " Ya know I'm really tired and have to get to bed " . I felt

like the hired help and she was my boss. Only, I DIDN'T GET PAID !!!!!!! I

love how their rudenrss makes you feel ----I'm not sure what I feel---hurt I

guess.

Jean

June 7, 2006

Jean,

I guess it's what I keep coming back to. I feel that you are more loving and

caring. You may wish you had stepped back. I guess doing things the way I do

them - letting her deal with her own issues - is just as hard as doing it

your way! There is no easy solution in this, and I feel guilty for not

helping her at times, for not getting close to her.

On the other hand, this winter she was in a calling mood. I remember one

call, when she had kicked her husband out and was on her own, and had told

me she could handle the situation. It was in the middle of a snowstorm, and

I am busily shoveling the driveway so I can get , my 13 year old, to

his orchestra rehearsal (I'll brag and say he is first chair). Anyway, while

I am shoveling she calls to ask me to take her to 7-11! I told her I just

didn't have time for that. She was so mad! If she complains to me that I'm

just " not there for her " , she is absolutely right!

Goodness, this process is hard - and we are stuck with it for life, you are

right, Jean! That is the hard part.

Helen

_____

From: WTOParentsOfBPs

[mailto:WTOParentsOfBPs ] On Behalf Of cascorsam@...

Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:09 PM

To: WTOParentsOfBPs

Subject: Re: Re:Shanara-it's Brainwashing!!

Helen

I realize that, as usual, this turn of events is my own fault. I had

expectations of her being a normal person and that will never be. I really

wish

she would relinquish her rights to my grandsons and I would take them and

move

and not have to deal with her again. If she lost the house, it would be her

problem.

I do believe at my daughter's age, there will be no improvement in her

personality. This is it---saddled with a daughter I can only (sometimes)

tolerate, at best.

Jean

June 10, 2006

Somehow I sense these kids feel ANGER works for them. Mine was excessively

angry at a young age -- in ways she had something to feel angry about: her

parents weren't together, she was a worry wart.

From early on, if something didn't go the way she expected, or if she couldnt'

control the situation, she tried to use her ANGER to get what she wanted. For

example, when she was 4 or 5, the doctor wanted her to get undressed and she

would come back for a physical. The kid refused, carried on a temper trantrum

like you wouldn't believe for 45 minutes. The doctor gave me a prescription

with a child psychiatrist's name on it... and wouldn't touch my kid.

Later on that evening, when my kid calmed down, she said, " Mommy, don't they

give you a gown when you visit the doctor. " That's all she wanted. The doctor

wouldn't listen to her and give it to her. So, the end result of what she

wanted wasn't so bad, but the way she felt was extreme and she could not convey

what she wanted in terms acceptable to adults.

I guess they feel this behavior works for them.

Anyone else have similar experiences with ANGER and rage from their bps at an

early age?

Another example I'll never forget was my kid was 2, didn't eat well and wanted

cookies. I said " no " . The kid screamed for 45 minutes -- I couldn't find a

place in my home to get away from it (maybe she felt abandoned while she was in

her room screaming alone). Finally, she went to sleep. What does she say to me

first thing the next morning? I want my cookie. Powerful.

Carol

--------- Re: Grandparents and BPD

Thanks Debbie. I guess maybe I am still having problems letting go.

I dont know how to talk to her....what to say, what to not say, and

still keep a line of communications open. I dont want her to think I

have thrown her to the dogs (so to speak) and still figure out how

to distance myself somehow. I dont believe it has to be black or

white....there has to be a middle ground somehow.

Shanara

>

> In a message dated 6/6/2006 2:50:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> shadoweve@.. . writes:

> She pointedly asked me today, " you dont see yourself in any of the

> books you are reading " ?

> Shanara,

>

> I am sorry you are feeling down today. Things do get better,

it's just a

> waiting game with them, waiting for them to acknowledge their

issues

> themselves. I would have said to my daughter, no, I do not see

myself in any of these

> books. I am not reading them for my own personal benefit. She is

seeing you

> in the books because her thinking patterns are altered, they are

not the same

> as ours. She is the one in denial and won't see herself in the

books.

>

> Your daughter is quite the adult now. I wouldn't drag myself down

trying to

> figure the ins and outs of her. Let her be. You cannot change

her. She can

> only change herself and that won't happen until she acknowledges

that she has

> the problem. I wish you well.

>

> Hugs,

> DebbieL

>

June 10, 2006

Hi Jean,

Next time she asks you to pay her bills (at least it was her cash) you can

kindly bow out.

Sorry about the episodes. She is very stressed. Any normal single mom of 4

would be!

Carol

-------------- Original message --------------

From: cascorsam@...

Getting my head bitten off after I babysit for all 4 kids or I run an errand

for HER while she is at work. I find this behavior incredulous as well.

Ex.--she wanted me to pay her Blockbuster Video acct today. She lost the

credit card they had for her. She gave me cash to pay it and wanted it done this

morning before they attempted to put old cc through.

I am sorry, but it is raining like a monsoon here and I planned on doing all

my errands at one time---later today before I pick up my grandsons from

school. I called Blockbuster to ask them to not put the card through because, at

her request I was coming in to pay them in cash for this month. They told

me they HAD to have a cc. I called her at work to tell her and she started

yelling at me and hung up. Last night, after babysitting the 4 of them so she

could work, when she got home, I told her how cute Emerson had been and she

abruptly told me, " Ya know I'm really tired and have to get to bed " . I felt

like the hired help and she was my boss. Only, I DIDN'T GET PAID !!!!!!! I

love how their rudenrss makes you feel ----I'm not sure what I feel---hurt I

guess.

Jean

June 10, 2006

Jean,

Do not blame yourself for K's behavior.

I'm sorry you feel you are " saddled. " with this daughter. I don't feel you are

" saddled. " She is an adult, you are not responsible for her or her behavior.

Only your own. You were doing so well.

If you expect to be her best friend, yes, you may be disappointed. If you have

no expectations, you cannot be sucked in .

I know it's very hard when grandkids are involved. Our daughters rely on us so

much to step in and take care of things, so they can go about their personal

business. I'm sure you feel used. Perhaps you can set clear boundaries around

that so the stress level doesn't rise!

Carol

-------------- Original message --------------

From: cascorsam@...

Helen

I realize that, as usual, this turn of events is my own fault. I had

expectations of her being a normal person and that will never be. I really wish

she would relinquish her rights to my grandsons and I would take them and move

and not have to deal with her again. If she lost the house, it would be her

problem.

I do believe at my daughter's age, there will be no improvement in her

personality. This is it---saddled with a daughter I can only (sometimes)

tolerate, at best.

Jean

June 10, 2006

Carol

I do believe all these kids are stubborn creatures, which is probably why

they survive. My daughter was incredibly stubborn. However she rarely got

away with much by throwing temper tantrums. She was a breath holder from

birth.

As a baby she would cry till I thought she would pass out. The doctor told

me to blow in her face and she would take a breathe and if she passed out,

she would then start breathing again. This advice carried me through the

terrible twos and fearsome fours when she brought breath holding to a new

level.

But I was dtermined she was not going to control me with this behavior.

But she was SMART, when she saw tantrums didn't work for her, she became the

victim in situations---- " mommy so and so won't play with me, Mommy so and so

doesn't like me " , etc. This crushed me and I would bend over backwards to

make her happy and give her things and take her places before she even

asked-----just so she would be happy.

She does the same thing with her kids, including the 16 month old, who curls

her lower lip and bawls the instant Krisitn tells her " NO " . ANd of course,

the boys, whine her to death till she gives in. When I tell Emerson " NO " ,

she looks at me and I say " no " again and that is the end of it. But, I had to

retrain her, by letting her curl that lip and bawl a few times before she

learned real quick that Nana didn't much care if she cried.

When the boys start that business about friends not liking them, I don't get

all ego involved with them, we sit daown and discuss it and if they still

can't see how the situation can be resolved and I think they are in it for a

" pity party " , I tell them they will just have to get over it because in life

not everyone is going to like them or be nice to them.

If only I had done that with her. My son never seemed to have a problem

wanting attention from me on a negative note.

Jean

June 10, 2006

Carol

Let me add, my daughter's anger didn't start toward me until she and my ex

had re established a relationship after she graduated from high school and at

my suggestion she invited him up here. My kids hadn't had any contact with

him for the previous 8 years. After the graduation, she went to DC to visit

him and the new family and he started showering her with material things.

That is when I became dirt and she would go running to him. And from that time

on the anger was total hostility as though she hated me. Previously, we had

been extremely close. It has been all very painful as you know. Then after

she and the boys' father split, she became my best buudy again and then took

out last year's restraining order against me which was when I started with

this group.

Jean

June 12, 2006

Jean,

I know K showed her anger much later than others. You are lucky to have enjoyed

such a close relationship for all those years.

I'm sorry things changes. She may have been " splitting. " The mom gets the

brunt of it!

Carol

p.s. Re: weeknd of 29th, now my daughter and grandchild may be coming to visit.

Keep me posted on the details just in case it doesn't work out as she plans

(very frequent).....