Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar and TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

[Guest guest]

I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar protocol and

reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses like I have

never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I didn;t ever try

to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am saying is I

plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in this instance,

the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am expereinced enough

with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling the protocol

and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to report here

Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting with

DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling like when I

started

we would be a whole lot further on than we are

Mandi in UK

No Mandi. It's nothing like that. Doing it at a lower dose more often

is clearly, if you understand the first thing about what we are doing

here, a more conservative approach. So, to ask that he try it on the

8hr protocol is to say, " Why don't you try something that we know will

be safer, and see if things are better? "

[Guest guest]

Mandi,

Please keep us posted on how the TD-DMPS goes for your child. If you

wouldn't mind I would love to hear how your child is doing now. Will

you be using Dr. Buttar's TD-DMPS and his protocol?

Thanks, any feedback would be appreciated. I am very interested to hear

how this goes for you and have my fingers crossed for good luck.

(Ian's mom) (next round for us will be 70 also)

Re: [ ] Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar and

TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar protocol and

reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses like I

have

never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I didn;t ever

try

to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am saying is

I

plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in this

instance,

the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am expereinced

enough

with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling the

protocol

and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to report

here

Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting with

DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling like

when I started

we would be a whole lot further on than we are

Mandi in UK

No Mandi. It's nothing like that. Doing it at a lower dose more often

is clearly, if you understand the first thing about what we are doing

here, a more conservative approach. So, to ask that he try it on the

8hr protocol is to say, " Why don't you try something that we know will

be safer, and see if things are better? "

[Guest guest]

Re: [ ] Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar and

TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar protocol and

reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses like I have

never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I didn;t ever try

to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am saying is I

plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in this instance,

the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am expereinced enough

with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling the protocol

and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to report here

Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting with

DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling like when I

started

we would be a whole lot further on than we are

Mandi in UK

Mandi,

I'm wondering why you have chelated for 2.5 years and have only 70 rounds in?

Did you do 3 on and 4 off or 3 on and 11 off?

With 3 on and 4 off you would have almost double or 130 rounds in. With 3 on

and 11 off you'd have 65. Did you do a lot of long (more that 3 on)rounds?

In your case how can we tell if the Buttar method is effective after all the

rounds of mercury removal that you already have done with DMSA and ALA?

I hope the best for you and do hope that you will post updates.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm wondering why you have chelated for 2.5 years and have only 70 rounds

in? Did you do 3 on and 4 off or 3 on and 11 off?

>>>3/11 mostly, I work and do 2.5 - 3 hourly dosing, meaning I get up twice

in the night every night of the weekend once a fortnight. I nearly cracked up

completely trying to do 3/4...........We also took a 6 week break early on

for gut bugs until I realised they keep coming back unless you keep

going............

With 3 on and 4 off you would have almost double or 130 rounds in. With 3 on

and 11 off you'd have 65. Did you do a lot of long (more that 3 on)rounds?

>>>I guess we have done about 10 longer rounds, usually 4.5 days, one of 6

days

In your case how can we tell if the Buttar method is effective after all the

rounds of mercury removal that you already have done with DMSA and ALA?

>>Who knows??? But at this rate I'll be at it for another 5 years. I want

some sleep and more gains for the effort and expense LOL

I hope the best for you and do hope that you will post updates.

>>Thanks, appreciated. I plan to post here and wish more others would too so

we could all get a better feel of how effective the stuff is. Maybe the

gains I am reading about are kids that don;t have the Lead issues mine has in

combination with the Hg? I dont; think many, if any, have done 70 rounds

worth. Time will tell

Mandi in UK

[Guest guest]

>Glad to see these 70 rounders out there. Ben will do 69 tomorrow

and round 33. We just did a stool test on both kids. We

started back with chelation after they did 80 hours of HBOT. Ben's

mercury was unappreciable but 's was in the yellow. Lead was

high for both kids.

I too am interested in the TD-DMPS. I would follow the 8 hour

protocol probably 3 days on and 4 off rather than the every other

day protocol unless someone convinces me otherwise. What I'm

reading is the cream is an anti viral which is suppose to help with

excretion.???????

Holly

Mandi,

>

> Please keep us posted on how the TD-DMPS goes for your child. If

you

> wouldn't mind I would love to hear how your child is doing now.

Will

> you be using Dr. Buttar's TD-DMPS and his protocol?

>

> Thanks, any feedback would be appreciated. I am very interested

to hear

> how this goes for you and have my fingers crossed for good luck.

>

> (Ian's mom) (next round for us will be 70 also)

>

> Re: [ ] Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar and

> TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

>

> I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar

protocol and

>

> reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses

like I

> have

> never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

>

> I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I didn;t

ever

> try

> to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am

saying is

> I

> plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in

this

> instance,

> the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am

expereinced

> enough

> with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling

the

> protocol

> and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to

report

> here

>

> Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting

with

> DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling

like

> when I started

> we would be a whole lot further on than we are

>

> Mandi in UK

>

> No Mandi. It's nothing like that. Doing it at a lower dose more

often

> is clearly, if you understand the first thing about what we are

doing

> here, a more conservative approach. So, to ask that he try it on

the

> 8hr protocol is to say, " Why don't you try something that we know

will

> be safer, and see if things are better? "

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Holly,

How did the 80 hours do for your kids!

Barb

Re: [ ] Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar and

>> TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

>>

>> I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar

> protocol and

>>

>> reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses

> like I

>> have

>> never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

>>

>> I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I didn;t

> ever

>> try

>> to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am

> saying is

>> I

>> plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in

> this

>> instance,

>> the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am

> expereinced

>> enough

>> with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling

> the

>> protocol

>> and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to

> report

>> here

>>

>> Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting

> with

>> DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling

> like

>> when I started

>> we would be a whole lot further on than we are

>>

>> Mandi in UK

>>

>> No Mandi. It's nothing like that. Doing it at a lower dose more

> often

>> is clearly, if you understand the first thing about what we are

> doing

>> here, a more conservative approach. So, to ask that he try it on

> the

>> 8hr protocol is to say, " Why don't you try something that we know

> will

>> be safer, and see if things are better? "

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

> >>Glad to see these 70 rounders out there. Ben will do 69 tomorrow

> > and round 33. We just did a stool test on both kids. We

> > started back with chelation after they did 80 hours of HBOT.

Ben's

> > mercury was unappreciable but 's was in the yellow. Lead

was

> > high for both kids.

> >

> > I too am interested in the TD-DMPS. I would follow the 8 hour

> > protocol probably 3 days on and 4 off rather than the every other

> > day protocol unless someone convinces me otherwise. What I'm

> > reading is the cream is an anti viral which is suppose to help

with

> > excretion.???????

> >

> > Holly

> >

> >

> >

> > Mandi,

> >>

> >> Please keep us posted on how the TD-DMPS goes for your child.

If

> > you

> >> wouldn't mind I would love to hear how your child is doing now.

> > Will

> >> you be using Dr. Buttar's TD-DMPS and his protocol?

> >>

> >> Thanks, any feedback would be appreciated. I am very interested

> > to hear

> >> how this goes for you and have my fingers crossed for good luck.

> >>

> >> (Ian's mom) (next round for us will be 70 also)

> >>

> >> Re: [ ] Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar

and

> >> TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

> >>

> >> I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar

> > protocol and

> >>

> >> reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses

> > like I

> >> have

> >> never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

> >>

> >> I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I

didn;t

> > ever

> >> try

> >> to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am

> > saying is

> >> I

> >> plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in

> > this

> >> instance,

> >> the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am

> > expereinced

> >> enough

> >> with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is

handling

> > the

> >> protocol

> >> and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to

> > report

> >> here

> >>

> >> Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting

> > with

> >> DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling

> > like

> >> when I started

> >> we would be a whole lot further on than we are

> >>

> >> Mandi in UK

> >>

> >> No Mandi. It's nothing like that. Doing it at a lower dose

more

> > often

> >> is clearly, if you understand the first thing about what we are

> > doing

> >> here, a more conservative approach. So, to ask that he try it

on

> > the

> >> 8hr protocol is to say, " Why don't you try something that we

know

> > will

> >> be safer, and see if things are better? "

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

Awesome! Great job! We finished our first 40 last summer, and may go back

again.

Barb

Re: [ ] Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar

> and

>> >> TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

>> >>

>> >> I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar

>> > protocol and

>> >>

>> >> reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses

>> > like I

>> >> have

>> >> never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

>> >>

>> >> I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I

> didn;t

>> > ever

>> >> try

>> >> to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am

>> > saying is

>> >> I

>> >> plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in

>> > this

>> >> instance,

>> >> the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am

>> > expereinced

>> >> enough

>> >> with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is

> handling

>> > the

>> >> protocol

>> >> and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to

>> > report

>> >> here

>> >>

>> >> Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting

>> > with

>> >> DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling

>> > like

>> >> when I started

>> >> we would be a whole lot further on than we are

>> >>

>> >> Mandi in UK

>> >>

>> >> No Mandi. It's nothing like that. Doing it at a lower dose

> more

>> > often

>> >> is clearly, if you understand the first thing about what we are

>> > doing

>> >> here, a more conservative approach. So, to ask that he try it

> on

>> > the

>> >> 8hr protocol is to say, " Why don't you try something that we

> know

>> > will

>> >> be safer, and see if things are better? "

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

[Guest guest]

But Mandi, this makes no sense. The product was not " designed for "

anything in particular. All it is is DMPS with some kind of delivery

system so that it will get through the skin into the bloodstream. There

is no mystery in that. The same issues of dosing 8hrs vs. longer will

apply.

I am concerned about making this into some kind of mysterious new thing,

because that's exactly the situation in which it's easy to project our

hopes (and in other cases our fears) onto something, before

understanding clearly what we are dealing with.

I can appreciate your situation. You have tried chelation and it hasn't

worked. You need to try new things. My counsel would be only this.

Study it carefully, and approach it with caution. Dont' throw away what

you have already learned, but make sure to take it with you and

challenge whatever is new with the knowledge that you already have. If

it were me, since I am aware that redistribution leads to preferential

uptake in the neural system and thereby, over time, concentrating the

mercury in the neurons, I would make absolutely certain that anyone who

has anything new to propose, has an answer to this issue. And I

wouldn't take their answer at face value, I would inspect it carefully.

I wish you good luck,

Dave.

--------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 01:39:31 EST

From: Mum231ASD@...

Subject: Re: Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar and TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

I am reading reports daily of parents following the Buttar protocol and

reporting (in detail) the responses of their children, responses like I

have

never seen with traditonal chelation at a speed that excites me.

I will have done 70 rounds with Andys protocol next week, I didn;t ever

try

to 'change' that, his was there before DAN 8 hourly. What I am saying is

I

plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in this

instance,

the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am expereinced

enough

with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling the

protocol

and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to report

here

Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting with

DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling like

when I started

we would be a whole lot further on than we are

Mandi in UK

No Mandi. It's nothing like that. Doing it at a lower dose more often

is clearly, if you understand the first thing about what we are doing

here, a more conservative approach. So, to ask that he try it on the

8hr protocol is to say, " Why don't you try something that we know will

be safer, and see if things are better? "

[Guest guest]

Hi Mandi:

It must be very frustrating to chealte your child for over 2 y with

little result.

For what is worth, my 3 1/2 yo is on the TD DMPS since September. I

started him in the 48 hour protocol partly because my doc's son had

been on it for a month with great improvement.

I did three rounds with Dr. Buttar protocol, one aplication every 48

hours is a round. At the beginning my son was having a verbal

explossion but at the end, he wasn't talking at all, he was

letargic, had fever, and vomited. The " reaction " (redistribution)

was so bad we stopped treatment. My son returned to toewalking,

which had abandoned before the TD DMPS and recovered slowly in the

following weeks.

After 3 weeks I started chelation again, this time I divided the

dosage and aplied it to him every 8 hours for 3 days. He has been

improving steadily since and he is in the midle of round 9 in Andy's

protocol.

In my opinion, the TD DMPS is quite strong, it must be if any decent

amount of DMPS gets to cross the skin. I get symptoms just by

smelling it in his skin, to the extent that I have to chelate on his

schedule with DMPS for myself.

I wonder if your child would improve in another treatment, like

secretin and stuff.

Hoping the best for you,

Raquel

> I

> plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in

this

> instance,

> the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am

expereinced

> enough

> with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling

the

> protocol

> and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to

report

> here

>

> Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting

with

> DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling

like

[Guest guest]

>

> I did three rounds with Dr. Buttar protocol, one aplication every

48

> hours is a round. At the beginning my son was having a verbal

> explossion but at the end, he wasn't talking at all, he was

> letargic, had fever, and vomited. The " reaction " (redistribution)

> was so bad we stopped treatment. My son returned to toewalking,

> which had abandoned before the TD DMPS and recovered slowly in the

> following weeks.

How many rounds had you done when this happened?

For what it's worth, my friend's son had the exact same reaction,

except the toe walking, and was also super-crabby but continued on

the TD-DMPS 48 hour protocol and is doing fantastic now, three and a

half months into it. Had constant fevers for 2 weeks, then got

terrible ear infections he hadn't gotten for years, almost stopped. I

don't know if this fever thing is that common, but I will ask next

time. Dr. Yasko contends that the Evito formula is also anti-viral (I

just was told this by a friend who saw her presentation, she's agreed

to work with Dr. Buttar's protocol and combine with hers for this

other friend). I wonder if that stirred something on the viral load

on your son. Hmmm.

Just a note, Dr. Buttar does say that you will see the worst

behaviors 1-2 months into it, everything that you thought had gone

away as far as the worst autistic behaviors will come and stay for

months, and that's when so many drop out. I do think that most people

agree that it's not mercury removal that causes the initial good

improvement with his formula, it's the glutathione that is getting in

when maybe before it hadn't even with other transdermals.

I am encouraged that you are having results, glad that you took the

step to try this other method and got good results. On the other

hand, fwiw, Dr. Buttar's nurse claims that this other way has been

tried, I have asked 2x now and she says their results are better with

48 hours. I however, don't think there's a cookie cutter approach to

this, always distrust the cookie cutter people.

Rose

>

> After 3 weeks I started chelation again, this time I divided the

> dosage and aplied it to him every 8 hours for 3 days. He has been

> improving steadily since and he is in the midle of round 9 in

Andy's

> protocol.

>

> In my opinion, the TD DMPS is quite strong, it must be if any

decent

> amount of DMPS gets to cross the skin. I get symptoms just by

> smelling it in his skin, to the extent that I have to chelate on

his

> schedule with DMPS for myself.

>

> I wonder if your child would improve in another treatment, like

> secretin and stuff.

>

> Hoping the best for you,

>

> Raquel

>

>

>

> > I

> > plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in

> this

> > instance,

> > the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am

> expereinced

> > enough

> > with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is handling

> the

> > protocol

> > and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to

> report

> > here

> >

> > Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting

> with

> > DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling

> like

[Guest guest]

Dave,

This part of your post caught my attention:

>since I am aware that redistribution leads to preferential

> uptake in the neural system and thereby, over time, concentrating

>the

> mercury in the neurons,

It sounds like you understand redistribution better than I do. Are

you saying that the redistribution side effects will cause permanent

irreversible damage to neurons? Once mercury is concentrated in

neurons does that mean that it is impossible to get it out?

Thanks

> But Mandi, this makes no sense. The product was not " designed for "

> anything in particular. All it is is DMPS with some kind of

delivery

> system so that it will get through the skin into the bloodstream.

There

> is no mystery in that. The same issues of dosing 8hrs vs. longer

will

> apply.

>

> I am concerned about making this into some kind of mysterious new

thing,

> because that's exactly the situation in which it's easy to project

our

> hopes (and in other cases our fears) onto something, before

> understanding clearly what we are dealing with.

>

> I can appreciate your situation. You have tried chelation and it

hasn't

> worked. You need to try new things. My counsel would be only

this.

> Study it carefully, and approach it with caution. Dont' throw away

what

> you have already learned, but make sure to take it with you and

> challenge whatever is new with the knowledge that you already

have. If

> it were me, since I am aware that redistribution leads to

preferential

> uptake in the neural system and thereby, over time, concentrating

the

> mercury in the neurons, I would make absolutely certain that anyone

who

> has anything new to propose, has an answer to this issue. And I

> wouldn't take their answer at face value, I would inspect it

carefully.

>

> I wish you good luck,

> Dave.

[Guest guest]

So my son has now been through 70 redistribution incidents...............so

that gives me 140 days on TD DMPS at 48 hour dosing which is narly 5 months

worth of treatment to see if I get better results?????

Being fecious (?sp)

Mandi in UK

since I am aware that redistribution leads to preferential

> uptake in the neural system and thereby, over time, concentrating

>the

> mercury in the neurons,

[Guest guest]

> I however, don't think there's a cookie cutter approach to

> this, always distrust the cookie cutter people.

The Buttar protocol sounds to me like a cookie cutter approach. The

dosing interval of 48 h is set in stone. Every child is expected to

continue chelating no matter how sick or how severe redistribution

symptoms are. Eventually the mercury starts to come out but at what

expense to the child?

[Guest guest]

> The Buttar protocol sounds to me like a cookie cutter approach.

The

> dosing interval of 48 h is set in stone. Every child is expected

to

> continue chelating no matter how sick or how severe redistribution

> symptoms are.

Perhaps you gathered this from what I or someone else said, but if

the child has severe fevers he does have them stop temporarily. If

their livers show stress or there are other signs that there are

troubles, he has them stop until the values return to normal, so I

didn't want you to think this was the case, you are interpreting

something that was said incorrectly. My friend whose child had the

high fevers did plow through at her own choice, her son's liver and

other issues were o.k. and she had read enough from others to know

that it was optimal to plow through. He alters the child's regimen

depending on test results, which are numerous. But yes, on the issue

of every 48 hours it's what he wants and if you want to do something

else you can do it with another doctor. That's what he says. But

there are plenty of other doctors now who will let you do it

differently. Part of the reason is that he is trying to get the

documentable results and if everyone does something different it

won't be.

Eventually the mercury starts to come out but at what

> expense to the child?

>

[Guest guest]

What dosage for dmps@8hr/3days are you using? Thanks.

>

> Hi Mandi:

>

> It must be very frustrating to chealte your child for over 2 y

with

> little result.

>

> For what is worth, my 3 1/2 yo is on the TD DMPS since September.

I

> started him in the 48 hour protocol partly because my doc's son

had

> been on it for a month with great improvement.

>

> I did three rounds with Dr. Buttar protocol, one aplication every

48

> hours is a round. At the beginning my son was having a verbal

> explossion but at the end, he wasn't talking at all, he was

> letargic, had fever, and vomited. The " reaction " (redistribution)

> was so bad we stopped treatment. My son returned to toewalking,

> which had abandoned before the TD DMPS and recovered slowly in the

> following weeks.

>

> After 3 weeks I started chelation again, this time I divided the

> dosage and aplied it to him every 8 hours for 3 days. He has been

> improving steadily since and he is in the midle of round 9 in

Andy's

> protocol.

>

> In my opinion, the TD DMPS is quite strong, it must be if any

decent

> amount of DMPS gets to cross the skin. I get symptoms just by

> smelling it in his skin, to the extent that I have to chelate on

his

> schedule with DMPS for myself.

>

> I wonder if your child would improve in another treatment, like

> secretin and stuff.

>

> Hoping the best for you,

>

> Raquel

>

>

>

> > I

> > plan to start on the protocol the product was designed for, in

> this

> > instance,

> > the TD being quite different it seems than the oral. I am

> expereinced

> > enough

> > with chelation to make an assessment of how my child is

handling

> the

> > protocol

> > and will make changes if I observe anything untoward. I plan to

> report

> > here

> >

> > Trusting my maternal gut feeling on this as I have in persisting

> with

> > DMSA/ALA for 2.5 years with only small improvements and feeling

> like

[Guest guest]

Some people can take it, some can't.

It is the same with DMPS injections, 1 person in 6 ends up as described

at www.dmpsbackfire.com while some people really do seem to benefit

from them.

What is more relevant is what residual deficits these people have that

could have been corrected by proper chelation.

Given the faddishness of the whole TD-DMPS movement, I do encourage

extra caution, however it may be helpful for some people, and in fact

is likely to be helpful for many if done on an 8 hour protocol.

Issues I have:

1. The reports of adverse reactions in the form of skin inflammation,

bleeding, and scarring at the application site which are being

minimized, criticized and otherwise weaseled out of by the advocates

rather than addressed. My estimate is that this is about 11%

incidence.

2. the almost uniform reports of parents who start doing this about the

details of their kid's behavior and status that sound exactly like what

happens on other inappropriate chelation protocols.

3. The fact that I haven't yet seen any DATA from Dr. Buttar, and

people who have attended many presentations of his have said the slides

containing the data were always " inadvertently left out. " Also the

fact that I have heard claims from his different presentations of 30/

31, 19/31 and 22/31 " cured. "

4. The claim that TFD-DMPS has a " longer half life " than regular oral

DMPS, clearly indicating that the source of the information has no clue

about chemical kinetics (half life is an intrinsic property of the

agent), and also no indication of how this would be determined and it

is not in fact easy to measure.

The more I learn about this the more uncomfortable I am about it.

However at this point I don't try to convince people not to do it if

they have tried a lot of other things and they have a situation where

they need more rapid progress than they are experiencing using other

approaches.

What is seen with other protocols like this, DMSA every other day

probably being the best model, is that many people do improve somewhat

at first, and then later develop psychotic thinking and behavior

patterns along with poor motor neuron function. Since this has mostly

been used on adults, they mostly discontinued it when they started to

get those effects. With parents administering a treatment to their

children there is more risk of it being continued to the point of

serious harm.

Andy . . .. . . .

> So my son has now been through 70 redistribution incidents...............so

> that gives me 140 days on TD DMPS at 48 hour dosing which is narly 5 months

> worth of treatment to see if I get better results?????

> Being fecious (?sp)

> Mandi in UK

>

> since I am aware that redistribution leads to preferential

> > uptake in the neural system and thereby, over time, concentrating

> >the

> > mercury in the neurons,

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/5/2004 9:48:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

lindajaytee@... writes:

The one dose every 48 h does not make sense from looking at the

pharmacology of the situation. As long as people understand this.

The frequent dose chelation does make sense. There is a reason

behind attempting to maintain drug levels in the therapeutic range

for a period of time. Too much drug is toxic. Too little has no

effect. With frequent dosing the problem is trying to individualize

the treatment.

You might want to listen to his presentation he did at Autism One to

understand why he does the every 48 hour protocol. The proof is in the labs,

he's

getting tons more mercury out with the 48 hour protocol.

As I've said before, time will tell but I'm happy with the way we're doing

it )

_http://nomercury.org/AV%20Presentations.htm_

(http://nomercury.org/AV%20Presentations.htm)

Jo Pike

National Autism Association

Phone: 877-NAA-AUTISM

Email: Jo@...

_http://nationalautismassociation.org/_

(http://nationalautismassociation.org/)

[Guest guest]

> Issues I have:

>

> 1. The reports of adverse reactions in the form of skin

inflammation,

> bleeding, and scarring at the application site which are being

> minimized, criticized and otherwise weaseled out of by the

advocates

> rather than addressed. My estimate is that this is about 11%

> incidence.

>

The only report (not reports) of bleeding and scarring there has been

ois from one parent, from what I understand. This parent reported to

an anti-Buttar representative from Heyl, who used the report to try

to restrict access to Heyl's product. This has more to do with egos

than the reality. I know of no other child who got anything

representing anything like this. The rashes that have been reported

are mostly transient, except in the most sensitive child. There

rashes are transient, period. Let's not spread the misrepresentation.

It's not fair to take the only severe case and extrapolate from this

to a large population. To estimate 11% is perhaps accurate for the

rashes, but I've seen these rashes and they aren't scary, and they

are transient in all but a handful.

> 2. the almost uniform reports of parents who start doing this about

the

> details of their kid's behavior and status that sound exactly like

what

> happens on other inappropriate chelation protocols.

>

I see no difference, really, in the reports I've read between what I

saw with DMSA and DMSA/ALA. what is being reported as redistribution

is for my son and most others just the stimminess that came with

those protocols.

> 3. The fact that I haven't yet seen any DATA from Dr. Buttar, and

> people who have attended many presentations of his have said the

slides

> containing the data were always " inadvertently left out. " Also the

> fact that I have heard claims from his different presentations of

30/

> 31, 19/31 and 22/31 " cured. "

This is a misrepresentation. The slides are there. You are speaking

with 2nd hand incorrect information. He initially said 19, that has

gradually increased to 22 children that he calls recovered. I have

been told these two numbers consistently, and it was a gradual

increase from 19 to 22. The 30 was a misrepresentation, I have never

heard that in any presentation, which you can access. I think just

like any protocol, this is susceptible to word of mouth

misrepresentations, but it is unfair to repeat these without first-

hand information that IS available.

And there's the rub... the claims may be overblown, but Dr. Buttar is

putting a videotape of before and after, and the test results of

mercury excretion on a video. So of those 31, we will have at least 5

of them on videotape. So often the parents want their children to

go " under the radar. " One of the children who I have heard report

from who is " unrecovered " from the first study group is

extraordinarily improved. Those parent reports are hard to ignore,

damned hard.

In addition, as " rgtarheel " reported, we now have significant #s of

older kids who tried the DMSA and DMSA/ALA who didn't have results

who are reporting results with TD-DMPS. It's a significant #,

including my son, though as yet I won't be shouting anything from the

rooftops till I have a longer experience to report. Again, with him,

there is no, absolutely no, difference with what is

called " redistribution " issues with DMSA/ALA and what we experienced

with DMSA and DMSA/ALA.

[Guest guest]

Comparisons are being made between DMSA and TD-DMPS. How would oral DMPS and

TD-DMPS compare? I'm not sure you can fairly compare oral DMSA with TD-DMPS.

They are different compounds but DMPS given orally versus transdermally should

be able to be compared.

Ken

[Guest guest]

Rose,

Thanks for clarification. I really did think, from what I had read

in past messages, that part of the Buttar protocol was to continue

even during fairly severe illness. If it was my sick child I'm

afraid that I wouldn't plough through, even if everyone in the world

told me it was optimal to plough through, because I feel that illness

is an indication that there is something wrong. When I am sick the

extra stress of moving mercury through my body is going to stop

temporarily.

The one dose every 48 h does not make sense from looking at the

pharmacology of the situation. As long as people understand this.

The frequent dose chelation does make sense. There is a reason

behind attempting to maintain drug levels in the therapeutic range

for a period of time. Too much drug is toxic. Too little has no

effect. With frequent dosing the problem is trying to individualize

the treatment.

It would be very useful to see how much of the TD-DMPS is absorbed

and whether or not there is any slow release properties in this

preparation. I haven't seen any data about this.

In any drug therapy situation there are always risks. In our dilemma

the risks are large because we are moving a very toxic substance. I

feel that dosing every 48 h and not taking breaks increases the

risks. I also feel that when the main objective is to move the

mercury out quickly the other objective of healing the body might be

overlooked.

It also would be useful to see Dr. Buttar's study. I understand that

it hasn't been published, at least not yet.

> Perhaps you gathered this from what I or someone else said, but if

> the child has severe fevers he does have them stop temporarily. If

> their livers show stress or there are other signs that there are

> troubles, he has them stop until the values return to normal, so I

> didn't want you to think this was the case, you are interpreting

> something that was said incorrectly. My friend whose child had the

> high fevers did plow through at her own choice, her son's liver and

> other issues were o.k. and she had read enough from others to know

> that it was optimal to plow through. He alters the child's regimen

> depending on test results, which are numerous. But yes, on the

issue

> of every 48 hours it's what he wants and if you want to do

something

> else you can do it with another doctor. That's what he says. But

> there are plenty of other doctors now who will let you do it

> differently. Part of the reason is that he is trying to get the

> documentable results and if everyone does something different it

> won't be.

[Guest guest]

> > Issues I have:

> >

> > 1. The reports of adverse reactions in the form of skin

> inflammation,

> > bleeding, and scarring at the application site which are being

> > minimized, criticized and otherwise weaseled out of by the

> advocates

> > rather than addressed. My estimate is that this is about 11%

> > incidence.

> >

> The only report (not reports) of bleeding and scarring there has been

> ois from one parent,

There are 11 reports by 11 different parents that I am aware of.

> from what I understand. This parent reported to

> an anti-Buttar representative from Heyl,

The Heyl represenative is not anti-Buttar. Chaacterizing it this way

indicates a lack of understanding of any relevant issues, people,

organizations, and their legal and ethical obligations.

> who used the report to try

> to restrict access to Heyl's product.

Heyl, Inc. chooses not to distribute DMPS in the United States

presently. Their sales representative in the US does not have the

authority to make such decisions, it was made by their headquarters

senior management I am sure.

> This has more to do with egos

Perhaps yours and Dr. Buttar's, certainly not those of anyone at Heyl.

It is very difficult to see how a company can be trashed out on for NOT

selling a product when they lose money by doing that.

> than the reality. I know of no other child who got anything

> representing anything like this.

Please describe the details of your investigations regarding this. Do

they consist of anything furhter than accepting Dr. Buttar's statements

on the issue?

> The rashes that have been reported

> are mostly transient, except in the most sensitive child. There

> rashes are transient, period. Let's not spread the misrepresentation.

I do not believe this is a misrepresentation. To the best of my

knowledge it is accurate.

I do not consider transient rashes to be an adverse reaction, and do

not count them as such.

In all honesty, if I was sure all that was happening is some kids

develop sores that bleed a little and then scar I would simply suggest

people consider this possibility when deciding where to apply the

stuff. The problem is the lack of accurate information about what is

going on (which in all honesty it isn't reasonable to expect anyone to

have at present since it is hard to figure out what is really causing

the skin lesions) plus the very high level of sophistry, propaganda,

miosleading and false information, etc. as exemplified by your response

to my post.

While this aggressive propaganda campaign does not in and of itself

contain any real information about the details of other adverse

reactions, it does lead any reasonable person to wonder what else is

going on that they haven't heard about yet.

> It's not fair to take the only severe case and extrapolate from this

> to a large population. To estimate 11% is perhaps accurate for the

> rashes,

To the best of my knowledge it is accurate for serious skin lesions

that leak serum or blood. Rashes are more common.

>but I've seen these rashes and they aren't scary, and they

> are transient in all but a handful.

Rashes (if reasonably mild and localized) aren't scary.

Honestly, a little blood isn't scary either, though I think I'll have a

lot of parents hollering at me if I insist on that too strongly. The

real issue is what is going on since these are new types of reactions,

what is causing it, and does it have any long term effects?

> > 2. the almost uniform reports of parents who start doing this about

> the

> > details of their kid's behavior and status that sound exactly like

> what

> > happens on other inappropriate chelation protocols.

> >

> I see no difference, really, in the reports I've read between what I

> saw with DMSA and DMSA/ALA.

Then you shouild read them again.

.. what is being reported as redistribution

> is for my son and most others just the stimminess that came with

> those protocols.

>

> > 3. The fact that I haven't yet seen any DATA from Dr. Buttar, and

> > people who have attended many presentations of his have said the

> slides

> > containing the data were always " inadvertently left out. " Also the

> > fact that I have heard claims from his different presentations of

> 30/

> > 31, 19/31 and 22/31 " cured. "

>

> This is a misrepresentation. The slides are there.

I would greatly appreciate being provided with them.

> You are speaking

> with 2nd hand incorrect information. He initially said 19,

He initially said 30 at the AutismOne conference in Chicago, where I

got his hand out and it did in fact claim 30/31 responding to

treatment.

> that has

> gradually increased to 22 children that he calls recovered. I have

> been told these two numbers consistently, and it was a gradual

> increase from 19 to 22. The 30 was a misrepresentation,

No it isn't.

Apparently you have no accurate information on any of these topics.

Perhaps you can restrain yourself from posting in the future when you

are just mad at me and want to argue until after you get accurate

information in hand?

> I have never heard that in any presentation,

It is what he said over Memorial day in Chicago at AutismOne and what

was in the handouts for his talk.

> which you can access. I think just

> like any protocol, this is susceptible to word of mouth

> misrepresentations,

I am sure it is. This is why I try to get real information and verify

it. You should consider doing the same before posting next time.

> but it is unfair to repeat these without first-

> hand information that IS available.

>

> And there's the rub... the claims may be overblown, but Dr. Buttar is

> putting a videotape of before and after, and the test results of

> mercury excretion on a video. So of those 31, we will have at least 5

> of them on videotape. So often the parents want their children to

> go " under the radar. " One of the children who I have heard report

> from who is " unrecovered " from the first study group is

> extraordinarily improved. Those parent reports are hard to ignore,

> damned hard.

>

> In addition, as " rgtarheel " reported, we now have significant #s of

> older kids who tried the DMSA and DMSA/ALA who didn't have results

> who are reporting results with TD-DMPS. It's a significant #,

> including my son, though as yet I won't be shouting anything from the

> rooftops till I have a longer experience to report. Again, with him,

> there is no, absolutely no, difference with what is

> called " redistribution " issues with DMSA/ALA and what we experienced

> with DMSA and DMSA/ALA.

I hope whatever you do works well for your son.

Please, however, direct your emotional distress at your son's condition

being difficult to treat into some avenue other than arguing with me on

this list about everything I say. It is really quite disruptive as

well as being impolite, intolerant, and a major waste of everyone's

time.

I find it unlikely you will do this so I will neither read nor respond

to your posts in the future.

Andy .. . . . . .

[Guest guest]

> Comparisons are being made between DMSA and TD-DMPS. How would oral DMPS and

> TD-DMPS compare? I'm not sure you can fairly compare oral DMSA with TD-DMPS.

> They are different compounds but DMPS given orally versus transdermally should

> be able to be compared.

> Ken

I agree this would be the ideal comparison, but no large group of

people was given DMPS every day or every other day. Large groups were

given DMSA this way. DMPS and DMSA are fairly similar molecules, also

fairly similar in their chelating effects. They are similar but not

identical in terms of their adverse reactions, with DMSA tending to

induce more motor neuron problems and emotional volatility with poor

judgment and suspicion while DMPS induces more liver issues and anxious

agitated depression.

Andy . . . . . . ..

[Guest guest]

VERY true that anger is easier, albeit useless, to handle than grief, loss or

panic.

[ ] Re: Any Opinions about Dr Buttar and

TD-DMPS?/Timing/Dave

> > Issues I have:

> >

> > 1. The reports of adverse reactions in the form of skin

> inflammation,

> > bleeding, and scarring at the application site which are being

> > minimized, criticized and otherwise weaseled out of by the

> advocates

> > rather than addressed. My estimate is that this is about 11%

> > incidence.

> >

> The only report (not reports) of bleeding and scarring there has been

> ois from one parent,

There are 11 reports by 11 different parents that I am aware of.

> from what I understand. This parent reported to

> an anti-Buttar representative from Heyl,

The Heyl represenative is not anti-Buttar. Chaacterizing it this way

indicates a lack of understanding of any relevant issues, people,

organizations, and their legal and ethical obligations.

> who used the report to try

> to restrict access to Heyl's product.

Heyl, Inc. chooses not to distribute DMPS in the United States

presently. Their sales representative in the US does not have the

authority to make such decisions, it was made by their headquarters

senior management I am sure.

> This has more to do with egos

Perhaps yours and Dr. Buttar's, certainly not those of anyone at Heyl.

It is very difficult to see how a company can be trashed out on for NOT

selling a product when they lose money by doing that.

> than the reality. I know of no other child who got anything

> representing anything like this.

Please describe the details of your investigations regarding this. Do

they consist of anything furhter than accepting Dr. Buttar's statements

on the issue?

> The rashes that have been reported

> are mostly transient, except in the most sensitive child. There

> rashes are transient, period. Let's not spread the misrepresentation.

I do not believe this is a misrepresentation. To the best of my

knowledge it is accurate.

I do not consider transient rashes to be an adverse reaction, and do

not count them as such.

In all honesty, if I was sure all that was happening is some kids

develop sores that bleed a little and then scar I would simply suggest

people consider this possibility when deciding where to apply the

stuff. The problem is the lack of accurate information about what is

going on (which in all honesty it isn't reasonable to expect anyone to

have at present since it is hard to figure out what is really causing

the skin lesions) plus the very high level of sophistry, propaganda,

miosleading and false information, etc. as exemplified by your response

to my post.

While this aggressive propaganda campaign does not in and of itself

contain any real information about the details of other adverse

reactions, it does lead any reasonable person to wonder what else is

going on that they haven't heard about yet.

> It's not fair to take the only severe case and extrapolate from this

> to a large population. To estimate 11% is perhaps accurate for the

> rashes,

To the best of my knowledge it is accurate for serious skin lesions

that leak serum or blood. Rashes are more common.

>but I've seen these rashes and they aren't scary, and they

> are transient in all but a handful.

Rashes (if reasonably mild and localized) aren't scary.

Honestly, a little blood isn't scary either, though I think I'll have a

lot of parents hollering at me if I insist on that too strongly. The

real issue is what is going on since these are new types of reactions,

what is causing it, and does it have any long term effects?

> > 2. the almost uniform reports of parents who start doing this about

> the

> > details of their kid's behavior and status that sound exactly like

> what

> > happens on other inappropriate chelation protocols.

> >

> I see no difference, really, in the reports I've read between what I

> saw with DMSA and DMSA/ALA.

Then you shouild read them again.

. what is being reported as redistribution

> is for my son and most others just the stimminess that came with

> those protocols.

>

> > 3. The fact that I haven't yet seen any DATA from Dr. Buttar, and

> > people who have attended many presentations of his have said the

> slides

> > containing the data were always " inadvertently left out. " Also the

> > fact that I have heard claims from his different presentations of

> 30/

> > 31, 19/31 and 22/31 " cured. "

>

> This is a misrepresentation. The slides are there.

I would greatly appreciate being provided with them.

> You are speaking

> with 2nd hand incorrect information. He initially said 19,

He initially said 30 at the AutismOne conference in Chicago, where I

got his hand out and it did in fact claim 30/31 responding to

treatment.

> that has

> gradually increased to 22 children that he calls recovered. I have

> been told these two numbers consistently, and it was a gradual

> increase from 19 to 22. The 30 was a misrepresentation,

No it isn't.

Apparently you have no accurate information on any of these topics.

Perhaps you can restrain yourself from posting in the future when you

are just mad at me and want to argue until after you get accurate

information in hand?

> I have never heard that in any presentation,

It is what he said over Memorial day in Chicago at AutismOne and what

was in the handouts for his talk.

> which you can access. I think just

> like any protocol, this is susceptible to word of mouth

> misrepresentations,

I am sure it is. This is why I try to get real information and verify

it. You should consider doing the same before posting next time.

> but it is unfair to repeat these without first-

> hand information that IS available.

>

> And there's the rub... the claims may be overblown, but Dr. Buttar is

> putting a videotape of before and after, and the test results of

> mercury excretion on a video. So of those 31, we will have at least 5

> of them on videotape. So often the parents want their children to

> go " under the radar. " One of the children who I have heard report

> from who is " unrecovered " from the first study group is

> extraordinarily improved. Those parent reports are hard to ignore,

> damned hard.

>

> In addition, as " rgtarheel " reported, we now have significant #s of

> older kids who tried the DMSA and DMSA/ALA who didn't have results

> who are reporting results with TD-DMPS. It's a significant #,

> including my son, though as yet I won't be shouting anything from the

> rooftops till I have a longer experience to report. Again, with him,

> there is no, absolutely no, difference with what is

> called " redistribution " issues with DMSA/ALA and what we experienced

> with DMSA and DMSA/ALA.

I hope whatever you do works well for your son.

Please, however, direct your emotional distress at your son's condition

being difficult to treat into some avenue other than arguing with me on

this list about everything I say. It is really quite disruptive as

well as being impolite, intolerant, and a major waste of everyone's

time.

I find it unlikely you will do this so I will neither read nor respond

to your posts in the future.

Andy .. . . . . .

=======================================================

[Guest guest]

Rose the difference is figures doesn;t mean Andy is lying at all. It just

means the people with negative effects TALK to him and don;t post where we are

both reading. Like you I was only aware of one incident.

This is what is so infruriating about different lists. If we were all on one

then these problems wouldn;t arise................

Mandi in UK

, I was not angry. But I believe that Andy is lying, and I

like to call a liar a liar when he is a liar, and it does perplex me

that he invents statistics so boldly. He is baldly misrepresenting

things. You can believe what he says below, but anybody can check

things out for themselves. I don't believe his 11, not for a minute,

and this sort of pulling people out of thin air is what he did with

TTFD. All of sudden these numbers of people who have had trouble

appear, when other people on other lists are not reporting this sort

of thing.