Re: OT:Reply to zoos and circus

[Guest guest]

I too have a no Circus rule at my home. I have been involved in animal

rescue and animal rights issues for years. There is something wrong with

people who enjoy seeing animals doing tricks while a person cracks a whip at

its head. Elephants were not meant to have head dresses on and carry woman

with very little clothing on around in a circle. These animals belong in the

wild, if there is no way to return them to the wild then they need to go to a

sanctuary where they will be cared for and where no one is snapping whips at

their head. My oldest is 16 and he has never been to a circus. My little

one who is ten now started about 3 years ago going up to the man at the

county fair who was giving elephant rides and told him that what he doing to

those poor elephants was wrong and he said that God could not be happy with

him because he put big chains on one of his creatures and would not let him

be just an elephant in the wild. Then he told everyone that was in line that

it was wrong to ride an elephant, and that People who chain down animals were

mean people. Everyone got out of line, and CJ stayed there all day and told

everyone that came to ride the elephant the same thing. The man was pissed

and told the police what CJ was doing, and the cop told him that CJ had the

right to free speech, and he was not going to stop him from telling the

people that it was wrong to abuse animals. CJ spends every day at the fair

now talking to people who are watching the dancing bears, or the monkeys that

perform, and he elephant rides. The same guy comes back every year and he

just hates it when CJ shows up! His business drops off almost completely

when he is there.

Joan Furman

[Guest guest]

<<< who hates most zoos because the animals look *SO* depressed. I am so

glad I am not the only one out there who cares about the animals!!!!>>>

Please don't think that I don't care about animals because I enjoy trips

to certain zoos. I will not support zoos where the animals seem neglected

or uncared for, but there are some wonderful zoos in the US that do a great

job of attending to the needs of the animals, and teaching us about what we

need to do to try to save the creatures like them still in the wild.

On my trips with a zoo vet during his rounds, I saw lots of happy, playful

animals who acted like great big house pets. They were well tended and

healthy animals, with lots of space to move around and explore- and much

safer than they would have been turned out to the dwindling wild lands. Had

I finished the veterinary degree I was working toward at the time, my

specialty would have been exotics- specifically to tend to the needs of

animals such as these.

Some zoos work very hard to educate the public on the topics concerning

the dwindling (or nonexistent) numbers of some animals in the wild~ which is

something I value. As an educational field trip, it's hard to beat a zoo

visit. Personally, I find the good ones very therapeutic.

Hugs to all~

Nisey

[Guest guest]

<<>>

I just want to add- I do not attend circuses, nor do I allow my children

to go the circus with class field trips. That's a whole different ball of

wax there.

And- I want to mention that I was very involved in wildlife rehabilitation

while at the vet school. Being able to participate in the rehabilitation of

an animal and then to see it released to the wild was a wonderful feeling.

I specialized in raptors (bird of prey), but there were also protected song

birds, squirrels, a beaver, and other animals who passed through the doors

of that facility- with most of the manpower being supplied by vet school

volunteers.

It was a wonderful experience, despite the odd hours and " nitty gritty "

tasks involved.

:0)

Nisey

[Guest guest]

I agree, I think some of the zoo's are great, just not the one here in Salt

Lake. The area's for the animals are very small, and boring, and the large cats

(lions and tigers etc..) have, what looks like a " cell " behind glass and they

never do anything but lay there all day. The reason that I don't particularly

" like " zoo's is partly because it is hot and sticky, and you walk forever (here,

even though the area's for the animals are small, the zoo is spread out and you

end up walking a mile from one exhibit to the next.) and I get tired, and don't

like the smell. The zoo here had a polar bear this last summer, in an outside

area, and it was completely blasted by the sun, there was no shade. I know that

there are some really wonderful zoo's.

Sincerely, Pamela Rauch

RE: OT:Reply to zoos and circus

<<< who hates most zoos because the animals look *SO* depressed. I am so

glad I am not the only one out there who cares about the animals!!!!>>>

Please don't think that I don't care about animals because I enjoy trips

to certain zoos. I will not support zoos where the animals seem neglected

or uncared for, but there are some wonderful zoos in the US that do a great

job of attending to the needs of the animals, and teaching us about what we

need to do to try to save the creatures like them still in the wild.

On my trips with a zoo vet during his rounds, I saw lots of happy, playful

animals who acted like great big house pets. They were well tended and

healthy animals, with lots of space to move around and explore- and much

safer than they would have been turned out to the dwindling wild lands. Had

I finished the veterinary degree I was working toward at the time, my

specialty would have been exotics- specifically to tend to the needs of

animals such as these.

Some zoos work very hard to educate the public on the topics concerning

the dwindling (or nonexistent) numbers of some animals in the wild~ which is

something I value. As an educational field trip, it's hard to beat a zoo

visit. Personally, I find the good ones very therapeutic.

Hugs to all~

Nisey

[Guest guest]

I agree, I think some of the zoo's are great, just not the one here in Salt

Lake. The area's for the animals are very small, and boring, and the large cats

(lions and tigers etc..) have, what looks like a " cell " behind glass and they

never do anything but lay there all day. The reason that I don't particularly

" like " zoo's is partly because it is hot and sticky, and you walk forever (here,

even though the area's for the animals are small, the zoo is spread out and you

end up walking a mile from one exhibit to the next.) and I get tired, and don't

like the smell. The zoo here had a polar bear this last summer, in an outside

area, and it was completely blasted by the sun, there was no shade. I know that

there are some really wonderful zoo's.

Sincerely, Pamela Rauch

RE: OT:Reply to zoos and circus

<<< who hates most zoos because the animals look *SO* depressed. I am so

glad I am not the only one out there who cares about the animals!!!!>>>

Please don't think that I don't care about animals because I enjoy trips

to certain zoos. I will not support zoos where the animals seem neglected

or uncared for, but there are some wonderful zoos in the US that do a great

job of attending to the needs of the animals, and teaching us about what we

need to do to try to save the creatures like them still in the wild.

On my trips with a zoo vet during his rounds, I saw lots of happy, playful

animals who acted like great big house pets. They were well tended and

healthy animals, with lots of space to move around and explore- and much

safer than they would have been turned out to the dwindling wild lands. Had

I finished the veterinary degree I was working toward at the time, my

specialty would have been exotics- specifically to tend to the needs of

animals such as these.

Some zoos work very hard to educate the public on the topics concerning

the dwindling (or nonexistent) numbers of some animals in the wild~ which is

something I value. As an educational field trip, it's hard to beat a zoo

visit. Personally, I find the good ones very therapeutic.

Hugs to all~

Nisey

[Guest guest]

It is great to hear that there are so many NO Circus people out there! We

too have been involved in animal rights, more heavily in the past 3 years.

Heavily enough for me to become a vegetarian.

My rule of thumb, which is something I read in an advocacy magazine once, is,

" A pet is not something that you keep in a cage, a prisoner is. " Made alot

of sense to me.

I am going to get off of my soapbox on this issue now, because if I do not, I

will blab for weeks on this!

Missy

[Guest guest]

It is great to hear that there are so many NO Circus people out there! We

too have been involved in animal rights, more heavily in the past 3 years.

Heavily enough for me to become a vegetarian.

My rule of thumb, which is something I read in an advocacy magazine once, is,

" A pet is not something that you keep in a cage, a prisoner is. " Made alot

of sense to me.

I am going to get off of my soapbox on this issue now, because if I do not, I

will blab for weeks on this!

Missy

[Guest guest]

<<< The area's for the animals are very small, and boring, and the large

cats (lions and tigers etc..) have, what looks like a " cell " behind glass

and they never do anything but lay there all day. >>>

That's a shame. I hate to see animals like that.

At the zoo I visited most often when I could, there was an actual family

of tigers kept all together- mom, dad, and two cubs. This certainly

wouldn't happen in the wild, but it looked like the dad and mom were so

comfortable with the cubs- it was a beautiful sight to see. Daddy tiger

loved their swimming pond, and the young male cub would practice stalking

him along the edge~ then pounce on top of daddy's head when he could get

close enough. He would then turn and paddle like mad for the edge again,

but daddy always brought up a massive paw and dunked the little guy. He

would sputter back to the surface, crawl out of the pond, and start stalking

again~ :0)

The panther and leopard were very playful, as well. They " wrestled " in

their pool frequently. I once saw the leopard pulling himself out of the

pool, and the panther grabbed him by the tail and dragged him backwards back

into the pool~ :0)

I'm sorry to ramble, but these are really happy memories for me- and I

need the " warm fuzzies "

:0)

Nisey

[Guest guest]

I will not go to a circus, will not allow my kids go to one, I think

it's animal abuse. We went to one of the fast food places and they had

an advertisement for a circus, well, I had the nerve to take a magic

marker and wrote " animal abuse " on the advertisement. They treat the

animals like crap and when one of them attacks, they kill the poor thing

and they wonder why it attacked after all those years of being a well

behaved animal!? It's a wild animal, it doesn't belong in a circus

ring, it doesn't deserve to be whipped, repeatedly, everyday, they were

not meant to perform " tricks. " The elephants run amuck because they

can't take it anymore, so what do they do??? Shoot them! It's not

their fault. They are sick of being abused, traveling in a tiny truck,

from one place to another, performing stupid tricks. Every time someone

pays for a circus ticket, it just reinforces the abuse. It's

sickening. Legalized abuse. That's what it is!

They should be living in the wild with others of their kind.

Whew, I'm done. I think.

Rhonda

Re: OT:Reply to zoos and circus

It is great to hear that there are so many NO Circus people out there!

We

too have been involved in animal rights, more heavily in the past 3

years.

Heavily enough for me to become a vegetarian.

My rule of thumb, which is something I read in an advocacy magazine

once, is,

" A pet is not something that you keep in a cage, a prisoner is. " Made

alot

of sense to me.

I am going to get off of my soapbox on this issue now, because if I do

not, I

will blab for weeks on this!

Missy

[Guest guest]

I agree to a point with these ideas, although I could never become a

vegetarian. I guess you have to decide at what point do you draw the line?

Is it wrong to have dogs that are confined to a backyard (a cage in

essence), or horses that are confined to their pasture? Or when we put the

saddle on them so that they will be the beast of burden that they are, is

that wrong? What about the aquariums that are so popular, where the fish are

kept in big tanks? I know that a lot of people don't like the pony rides at

parks. For the most part, I would agree. I was recently proved wrong,

however. Last year, our church used the big park just down the road from

the church, and they had pony rides, and a petting zoo. When we got to the

pony rides, I was awestruck at the obvious care that these animals have

received! Their hooves were well trimmed, they were well brushed, and the

owners had names for each of their ponies, and they loved on them, like they

were their own children! It was their hope, that through this, the children

would come to have a love of horses, and he would talk to some of the older

kids (7 or 8) about the care of these animals, and that they take a great

deal of time, etc. The same was true of their petting zoo. These animals

were obviously very well cared for, and the owners took the time to talk

with people about the various ones. As an owner of a breed of a dog that is

beautiful, and not so common, when we are out with them, we get a lot of

comments on how beautiful they are, and how they " want " one. We try to use

that opportunity to let them know that their beauty takes a day to get them

to look this way, and all the care that they require. I guess I'm saying

that you can't just make a blanket statement about all these things being

wrong, because in some instances, I don't think they are.

Carol Lugg

Re: OT:Reply to zoos and circus

It is great to hear that there are so many NO Circus people out there! We

too have been involved in animal rights, more heavily in the past 3 years.

Heavily enough for me to become a vegetarian.

My rule of thumb, which is something I read in an advocacy magazine once,

is,

" A pet is not something that you keep in a cage, a prisoner is. " Made alot

of sense to me.

I am going to get off of my soapbox on this issue now, because if I do not,

I

will blab for weeks on this!

Missy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 02/10/2002 11:36:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,

heislord@... writes:

> I guess you have to decide at what point do you draw the line?

> Is it wrong to have dogs that are confined to a backyard (a cage in

> essence), or horses that are confined to their pasture?

I guess my point of view comes from seeing the other side of the spectrum on

this issue. It is from the rescue scene. When you speak of confining a dog

to a yard or a horse to a pasture, it brings a different light to the issue.

What I am referring to are Birds kept in cages in the middle of a hotel or

store with no ability to ever stretch their wings, or someone keeping a large

dog in a crate made for a toy breed. You know what I mean. For most of us

it is common sense treatment of an animal. Unfortunately, for a small

fraction of people, they could care less about the animal's quality of life.

I was just in a place to get my nails done a few months ago, and the people

who owned the place had a canary in there. The fumes are terrible in there,

not to mention all of the dust! I go in there because I choose to put up

with the fumes and dust for an hour. The bird did not choose. As well, the

food and water bowls that they had in the cage were beautiful.

Unfortunately, I am looking at the bird, and the bowls, and there was NO WAY

that the bird could have got his head in the bowls. They were like small

pottery with the small tops and wider bottoms. Not a bird bowl. I could see

the bird actually panting to breathe, it was terrible. It was just no place

for a bird. A bird's respiratory system is far more delicate than ours. In

my birdroom here I run humidifiers, as well as a huge air cleaning system.

That is the kind of stuff that does not fly with me. I am sure that there

are far more responsible pet owners than non-responsible. We have a heck of

alot of animal lovers on this list! Responsible pet owners need be commended

on the wonderful job they do, as it takes a whole lot of time, money, and

attention! I know first hand.

As far as the petting zoo, farms, etc, go. Yes, I agree, there are many very

good places like this. Our local game preserve used to have one where you

could go in the gate with the animals. Unfortunately, due to lack of

parental supervision, that has been closed. Another case of some ruining it

for all. My daughter loved it. If she would have EVER harmed a hair on any

of those animals, I would have drug her out of there so fast she would not

have had the time to realize what happened. But, not all parents are like

that. There were baby goats and sheep getting kicked by the kids, etc. They

also have pony rides there, and the ponies are very well kept.

Alright...I will stop...again. This is really my last post on this

subject...I mean it this time. You will not hear me ramble about this post

any longer. You folks can post it away, I will not join! LOL It causes me

to ramble far too much.

Missy

[Guest guest]

Carol,

The difference between a dog being crated and an elephant being abused are as

big as the animals are different. Dogs are domestic animals and were breed

to live in human homes, with human interaction. An elephant is not and never

will be a domestic pet.

Those people who abuse dogs are just as horrible as those who abuse

elephants. So the blanket statement that Circus animals are to be wild and

they are abused by making them perform for us is a true statement. I don't

know of any dog show that has people snapping whips at a dogs head to make

him walk in a circle or sit and lay down. If a person was to tie a dog up by

his leg and keep him on a heavy chain a humane officer would go to that house

and remove that dog from its owners, I don't see that happening to elephant

owners. It may not happen in the big circus setting, but in the little ones

that come to county fairs it damn sure does, I have seen it with my own eyes.

I hunt for and respond to dog abuse all of the time, I currently have a tiny

dog in my home that was beaten and abused by a woman, she got a fine, and I

have the dog. I am teaching him to trust again. It will be a long recovery,

but when he is ready I will place him in a well screened home to live a happy

life.

You cannot domesticate an elephant. You can beat him in to submission, but

you can't take the wild out of him. That is why they snap and run thru a

crowd trampling everything in its path. The Elephant is not crazy, he is a

wild animal trying to protect himself with the tools nature gave him, His

size and strength is the only thing he has to defend himself. They need to

be put back where they belong, in the wild.

People who take their children to see animals being treated this way are only

continuing the problem, they are teaching the children it is okay to

disregard the way an elephant or tiger was made to live. It is just another

way that Man has screwed with nature. If people needed elephant meat to live

on, then by all means use that resource, but I don't think that any human

life would be adversely effected if there was no circus elephants.

Joan Furman

[Guest guest]

Carol,

The difference between a dog being crated and an elephant being abused are as

big as the animals are different. Dogs are domestic animals and were breed

to live in human homes, with human interaction. An elephant is not and never

will be a domestic pet.

Those people who abuse dogs are just as horrible as those who abuse

elephants. So the blanket statement that Circus animals are to be wild and

they are abused by making them perform for us is a true statement. I don't

know of any dog show that has people snapping whips at a dogs head to make

him walk in a circle or sit and lay down. If a person was to tie a dog up by

his leg and keep him on a heavy chain a humane officer would go to that house

and remove that dog from its owners, I don't see that happening to elephant

owners. It may not happen in the big circus setting, but in the little ones

that come to county fairs it damn sure does, I have seen it with my own eyes.

I hunt for and respond to dog abuse all of the time, I currently have a tiny

dog in my home that was beaten and abused by a woman, she got a fine, and I

have the dog. I am teaching him to trust again. It will be a long recovery,

but when he is ready I will place him in a well screened home to live a happy

life.

You cannot domesticate an elephant. You can beat him in to submission, but

you can't take the wild out of him. That is why they snap and run thru a

crowd trampling everything in its path. The Elephant is not crazy, he is a

wild animal trying to protect himself with the tools nature gave him, His

size and strength is the only thing he has to defend himself. They need to

be put back where they belong, in the wild.

People who take their children to see animals being treated this way are only

continuing the problem, they are teaching the children it is okay to

disregard the way an elephant or tiger was made to live. It is just another

way that Man has screwed with nature. If people needed elephant meat to live

on, then by all means use that resource, but I don't think that any human

life would be adversely effected if there was no circus elephants.

Joan Furman

[Guest guest]

Carol,

The difference between a dog being crated and an elephant being abused are as

big as the animals are different. Dogs are domestic animals and were breed

to live in human homes, with human interaction. An elephant is not and never

will be a domestic pet.

Those people who abuse dogs are just as horrible as those who abuse

elephants. So the blanket statement that Circus animals are to be wild and

they are abused by making them perform for us is a true statement. I don't

know of any dog show that has people snapping whips at a dogs head to make

him walk in a circle or sit and lay down. If a person was to tie a dog up by

his leg and keep him on a heavy chain a humane officer would go to that house

and remove that dog from its owners, I don't see that happening to elephant

owners. It may not happen in the big circus setting, but in the little ones

that come to county fairs it damn sure does, I have seen it with my own eyes.

I hunt for and respond to dog abuse all of the time, I currently have a tiny

dog in my home that was beaten and abused by a woman, she got a fine, and I

have the dog. I am teaching him to trust again. It will be a long recovery,

but when he is ready I will place him in a well screened home to live a happy

life.

You cannot domesticate an elephant. You can beat him in to submission, but

you can't take the wild out of him. That is why they snap and run thru a

crowd trampling everything in its path. The Elephant is not crazy, he is a

wild animal trying to protect himself with the tools nature gave him, His

size and strength is the only thing he has to defend himself. They need to

be put back where they belong, in the wild.

People who take their children to see animals being treated this way are only

continuing the problem, they are teaching the children it is okay to

disregard the way an elephant or tiger was made to live. It is just another

way that Man has screwed with nature. If people needed elephant meat to live

on, then by all means use that resource, but I don't think that any human

life would be adversely effected if there was no circus elephants.

Joan Furman

[Guest guest]

Norma,

I love sheep too, and they are also domestic animals, and you have them

living in a pasture where they were meant to live. Hand raised birds are

fine to have as pets, they too were bred for that purpose. I can't say much

for the lizard just I am glad that it lives at your house and not mine. I am

very afraid of anything that sticks it's tongue out to smell like that. It

freaks me out! Snakes and Lizards are not my idea of a cuddly pet, but I

know many people who love them, and would not have any other pet. My

girlfriend has a 6ft lizard she walks it like a dog. He comes to her when

she calls, she hatched it from an egg and has hand raised it. He loves to

sit on the top of her curtains and get the sunlight. I guess he is cool but

it gives me the willies!

Joan

[Guest guest]

I think that zoos now days are so much differnt than 20 years ago. They are

now more like huge animal hospitals, and behavior research centers. The

people who wait years and years to get to work at a zoo are trained in animal

care and rehab. Only the best of the best get to work in the big zoo's in the

country. They have breeding centers to repopulate animals to areas that

humans have distroyed. I support our local zoo. (columbus Zoo) It is not

the most Ideal place for animals but I beleive that the work they are doing

will help far more animals than it will harm.

Joan

[Guest guest]

I think that zoos now days are so much differnt than 20 years ago. They are

now more like huge animal hospitals, and behavior research centers. The

people who wait years and years to get to work at a zoo are trained in animal

care and rehab. Only the best of the best get to work in the big zoo's in the

country. They have breeding centers to repopulate animals to areas that

humans have distroyed. I support our local zoo. (columbus Zoo) It is not

the most Ideal place for animals but I beleive that the work they are doing

will help far more animals than it will harm.

Joan

[Guest guest]

I think that zoos now days are so much differnt than 20 years ago. They are

now more like huge animal hospitals, and behavior research centers. The

people who wait years and years to get to work at a zoo are trained in animal

care and rehab. Only the best of the best get to work in the big zoo's in the

country. They have breeding centers to repopulate animals to areas that

humans have distroyed. I support our local zoo. (columbus Zoo) It is not

the most Ideal place for animals but I beleive that the work they are doing

will help far more animals than it will harm.

Joan

[Guest guest]

> I agree to a point with these ideas, although I could never become a

> vegetarian. I guess you have to decide at what point do you draw

the line?

> Is it wrong to have dogs that are confined to a backyard (a cage in

> essence), or horses that are confined to their pasture? I guess

I'm saying

> that you can't just make a blanket statement about all these things

being

> wrong, because in some instances, I don't think they are.

>

> Carol Lugg

>

I agree with you, Carol! I have sheep and they live in a

pasture. They aren't much good for anything (wool isn't worth much)

but they are so cool to have. I would never eat them (yuck!) but my

husband sells the boys for market in the fall to help pay for their

winter feed. I love my sheep and its hard to give any of them up,

especially the ones that I bottle-feed. Anyway, my point is,

sometimes animals have to get penned up for their own good. one of my

ewes gave birth to a tiny little baby this last week (what a

suprise!) and I had to pen them up because it is too cold for baby

outside in Minnesota right now. I put a heat lamp in the pen to keep

her warm & will let them out when baby is big enough to make it on

her own. My hubby bought her last fall & she must have been PG then.

usually you separate the ram in the fall so they don't breed until

November. My daughter has a little pet lizard and I wouldn't want it

running around the house. On the other hand, we have a cockatiel who

lives in a cage, but we let her out to fly around the house. I think

it just depends on the circumstances involved. The main thing is if

you are going to have pets, you have to take proper care of them.

Norma

> >

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[Guest guest]

About dogs, I just had to comment that there is no greater happiness in their

lives than to please their owner. I truly believe that they were created

specifically for us to have a greater happiness. If you've ever watched a dog

show, those dogs get so much praise and affection, not to mention treats, for

doing these simple tasks and the praise makes them so happy that their whole

body wags. If you've ever had your faced licked to death by your dog that

adores you, you can relate to this (I guess this statement would depend on if

you like being licked by a dog) anyway, I am sure that I am rambling, but have

made my piont. There is abuse in any situation, even dog shows, but in general,

dogs do not do well on their own without a human owner. Even those born on the

street do not thrive. They do thrive by having a loving owner.

Sincerely, Pamela Rauch

Re: Re: OT:Reply to zoos and circus

Carol,

The difference between a dog being crated and an elephant being abused are as

big as the animals are different. Dogs are domestic animals and were breed

to live in human homes, with human interaction. An elephant is not and never

will be a domestic pet.

Those people who abuse dogs are just as horrible as those who abuse

elephants. So the blanket statement that Circus animals are to be wild and

they are abused by making them perform for us is a true statement. I don't

know of any dog show that has people snapping whips at a dogs head to make

him walk in a circle or sit and lay down. If a person was to tie a dog up by

his leg and keep him on a heavy chain a humane officer would go to that house

and remove that dog from its owners, I don't see that happening to elephant

owners. It may not happen in the big circus setting, but in the little ones

that come to county fairs it damn sure does, I have seen it with my own eyes.

I hunt for and respond to dog abuse all of the time, I currently have a tiny

dog in my home that was beaten and abused by a woman, she got a fine, and I

have the dog. I am teaching him to trust again. It will be a long recovery,

but when he is ready I will place him in a well screened home to live a happy

life.

You cannot domesticate an elephant. You can beat him in to submission, but

you can't take the wild out of him. That is why they snap and run thru a

crowd trampling everything in its path. The Elephant is not crazy, he is a

wild animal trying to protect himself with the tools nature gave him, His

size and strength is the only thing he has to defend himself. They need to

be put back where they belong, in the wild.

People who take their children to see animals being treated this way are only

continuing the problem, they are teaching the children it is okay to

disregard the way an elephant or tiger was made to live. It is just another

way that Man has screwed with nature. If people needed elephant meat to live

on, then by all means use that resource, but I don't think that any human

life would be adversely effected if there was no circus elephants.

Joan Furman

[Guest guest]

About dogs, I just had to comment that there is no greater happiness in their

lives than to please their owner. I truly believe that they were created

specifically for us to have a greater happiness. If you've ever watched a dog

show, those dogs get so much praise and affection, not to mention treats, for

doing these simple tasks and the praise makes them so happy that their whole

body wags. If you've ever had your faced licked to death by your dog that

adores you, you can relate to this (I guess this statement would depend on if

you like being licked by a dog) anyway, I am sure that I am rambling, but have

made my piont. There is abuse in any situation, even dog shows, but in general,

dogs do not do well on their own without a human owner. Even those born on the

street do not thrive. They do thrive by having a loving owner.

Sincerely, Pamela Rauch

Re: Re: OT:Reply to zoos and circus

Carol,

The difference between a dog being crated and an elephant being abused are as

big as the animals are different. Dogs are domestic animals and were breed

to live in human homes, with human interaction. An elephant is not and never

will be a domestic pet.

Those people who abuse dogs are just as horrible as those who abuse

elephants. So the blanket statement that Circus animals are to be wild and

they are abused by making them perform for us is a true statement. I don't

know of any dog show that has people snapping whips at a dogs head to make

him walk in a circle or sit and lay down. If a person was to tie a dog up by

his leg and keep him on a heavy chain a humane officer would go to that house

and remove that dog from its owners, I don't see that happening to elephant

owners. It may not happen in the big circus setting, but in the little ones

that come to county fairs it damn sure does, I have seen it with my own eyes.

I hunt for and respond to dog abuse all of the time, I currently have a tiny

dog in my home that was beaten and abused by a woman, she got a fine, and I

have the dog. I am teaching him to trust again. It will be a long recovery,

but when he is ready I will place him in a well screened home to live a happy

life.

You cannot domesticate an elephant. You can beat him in to submission, but

you can't take the wild out of him. That is why they snap and run thru a

crowd trampling everything in its path. The Elephant is not crazy, he is a

wild animal trying to protect himself with the tools nature gave him, His

size and strength is the only thing he has to defend himself. They need to

be put back where they belong, in the wild.

People who take their children to see animals being treated this way are only

continuing the problem, they are teaching the children it is okay to

disregard the way an elephant or tiger was made to live. It is just another

way that Man has screwed with nature. If people needed elephant meat to live

on, then by all means use that resource, but I don't think that any human

life would be adversely effected if there was no circus elephants.

Joan Furman

[Guest guest]

> Norma,

>

> I love sheep too, and they are also domestic animals, and you have

them

> living in a pasture where they were meant to live. Hand raised

birds are

> fine to have as pets, they too were bred for that purpose. I can't

say much

> for the lizard just I am glad that it lives at your house and not

mine. >

> Joan

Joan- My daughter got the lizard for Christmas from her sister.

Right after we got it,it escaped by climbing up the electric cord

that heats a rock in it's aquarium and out the little hole for the

cord. One of the little girls I babysit was fascinated with the

little guy & she liked to talk to him.( babble)

She actually followed him down the hall into the bathroom and she was

trying to tell me what was going on and I thought she was trying to

tell me she had to go potty! When I saw him on the floor I reacted

just like the cartoons of the ladies with the mouse! My daughter

heard me yelling (screaming?!!) and came and rescued me. We blocked

that hole so he hasn't escaped again. Norma

[Guest guest]

> Norma,

>

> I love sheep too, and they are also domestic animals, and you have

them

> living in a pasture where they were meant to live. Hand raised

birds are

> fine to have as pets, they too were bred for that purpose. I can't

say much

> for the lizard just I am glad that it lives at your house and not

mine. >

> Joan

Joan- My daughter got the lizard for Christmas from her sister.

Right after we got it,it escaped by climbing up the electric cord

that heats a rock in it's aquarium and out the little hole for the

cord. One of the little girls I babysit was fascinated with the

little guy & she liked to talk to him.( babble)

She actually followed him down the hall into the bathroom and she was

trying to tell me what was going on and I thought she was trying to

tell me she had to go potty! When I saw him on the floor I reacted

just like the cartoons of the ladies with the mouse! My daughter

heard me yelling (screaming?!!) and came and rescued me. We blocked

that hole so he hasn't escaped again. Norma

[Guest guest]

> Norma,

>

> I love sheep too, and they are also domestic animals, and you have

them

> living in a pasture where they were meant to live. Hand raised

birds are

> fine to have as pets, they too were bred for that purpose. I can't

say much

> for the lizard just I am glad that it lives at your house and not

mine. >

> Joan

Joan- My daughter got the lizard for Christmas from her sister.

Right after we got it,it escaped by climbing up the electric cord

that heats a rock in it's aquarium and out the little hole for the

cord. One of the little girls I babysit was fascinated with the

little guy & she liked to talk to him.( babble)

She actually followed him down the hall into the bathroom and she was

trying to tell me what was going on and I thought she was trying to

tell me she had to go potty! When I saw him on the floor I reacted

just like the cartoons of the ladies with the mouse! My daughter

heard me yelling (screaming?!!) and came and rescued me. We blocked

that hole so he hasn't escaped again. Norma