Re: OT-something to think about...

[Guest guest]

> belong to a 'mainstream' religion (Lutheran) but I just think it would be

> too easy for =some= (not all, of course) teachers or student leaders to try

> to 'push' their beliefs onto others.

I agree to a certain extent. Here is a question... I don't know if your

High Schools have societies (they do in " Buffy the Vampire Slayer " and

" the teenage Witch " so i'll assume you do )[0] but, what would

your opinion be about a Christian Society where students meet and talk

and pray and stuff. Since that is opt-in... as opposed to opt-out,

shouldn't that be allowed?

What confuses me is that I can see how having a teacher (as a representative

of the state) talk about God in a teacherish capacity breaks the rules. I

don't understand how a group of students getting together on school property

breaks the principle.

> Plus, I know SEVERAL WONDERFUL human

> beings who are TERRIFIC PEOPLE in every way... and they happen to be

> atheists.

I don't think anyone would argue with you about that here...

> And, I don't think that the problems with the youth of America is in ANY

> way related to the lack of prayer in school... when you think of how times

If that were the case then our schools would be houses full or virtues and

all girl catholic schools wouldn't produce such a high proportion of

lesbians.[1]

> even parenting styles (or lack there of! <g>) have changed SO MUCH... it's

> no wonder that SOME of the kids have problems with disrespecting others,

> drugs, alcohol, etc.

There are many and various causes to moral decline. Mind you, I could be

controversial and say that I believe that every generation has looked at

the next and wondered how much worse they can get. I have a lovely quote

somewhere from one of the Egyption Kings disparing about the morals and

behaviour of the youth (and that was several thousand years ago!).

[0] See, we have American Culture here too! Or as best we can estimate

from programs such as those and Gerry Springer.

[1] I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS!!! DON'T FLAME ME!!!. Using that as an example of

a Christian right-wing belief that christian schools produce students that

they would " approve " of (compared to " regular " [2] schools)

[2] I hate that word. I never used that word until I married and now

I can't for the life of me think of a word to use instead[3]! " Regular " infers

Frequently occuring, whereas " normal " which I guess is what I should use

instead infers that anything that isn't " normal " in in some way below that.

In this case we obviously want to say equal but different - I don't remember

how to express that in my own " language " anymore *sob*.

[3] We got our revenge though... uses the word " dodgy " all the time

and when her American friends ask her to define it she CAN'T[4]!

[4] Interesting sideline that I've suddenly become interested in... Vocabulary.

How do we learn the meaning of a word without actually knowing the meaning

of the word. We *KNOW* what it means but don't know how to define it.

[Guest guest]

> belong to a 'mainstream' religion (Lutheran) but I just think it would be

> too easy for =some= (not all, of course) teachers or student leaders to try

> to 'push' their beliefs onto others.

I agree to a certain extent. Here is a question... I don't know if your

High Schools have societies (they do in " Buffy the Vampire Slayer " and

" the teenage Witch " so i'll assume you do )[0] but, what would

your opinion be about a Christian Society where students meet and talk

and pray and stuff. Since that is opt-in... as opposed to opt-out,

shouldn't that be allowed?

What confuses me is that I can see how having a teacher (as a representative

of the state) talk about God in a teacherish capacity breaks the rules. I

don't understand how a group of students getting together on school property

breaks the principle.

> Plus, I know SEVERAL WONDERFUL human

> beings who are TERRIFIC PEOPLE in every way... and they happen to be

> atheists.

I don't think anyone would argue with you about that here...

> And, I don't think that the problems with the youth of America is in ANY

> way related to the lack of prayer in school... when you think of how times

If that were the case then our schools would be houses full or virtues and

all girl catholic schools wouldn't produce such a high proportion of

lesbians.[1]

> even parenting styles (or lack there of! <g>) have changed SO MUCH... it's

> no wonder that SOME of the kids have problems with disrespecting others,

> drugs, alcohol, etc.

There are many and various causes to moral decline. Mind you, I could be

controversial and say that I believe that every generation has looked at

the next and wondered how much worse they can get. I have a lovely quote

somewhere from one of the Egyption Kings disparing about the morals and

behaviour of the youth (and that was several thousand years ago!).

[0] See, we have American Culture here too! Or as best we can estimate

from programs such as those and Gerry Springer.

[1] I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS!!! DON'T FLAME ME!!!. Using that as an example of

a Christian right-wing belief that christian schools produce students that

they would " approve " of (compared to " regular " [2] schools)

[2] I hate that word. I never used that word until I married and now

I can't for the life of me think of a word to use instead[3]! " Regular " infers

Frequently occuring, whereas " normal " which I guess is what I should use

instead infers that anything that isn't " normal " in in some way below that.

In this case we obviously want to say equal but different - I don't remember

how to express that in my own " language " anymore *sob*.

[3] We got our revenge though... uses the word " dodgy " all the time

and when her American friends ask her to define it she CAN'T[4]!

[4] Interesting sideline that I've suddenly become interested in... Vocabulary.

How do we learn the meaning of a word without actually knowing the meaning

of the word. We *KNOW* what it means but don't know how to define it.

[Guest guest]

>or does that mean literally that if someone is praying in the middle of an

>exam they will be marched out of the building!

LOL, Red, there is a lot of prayer in school during exams in the U.S.! It

just isn't an organized, group prayer. When I first started school, we

still had a morning prayer and we had Bible Study. Then we could no longer

have the morning prayer and if we took Bible class, we were bussed to a

nearby church during that time. Then that was no longer allowed. But they

couldn't take away the individual's right to pray on their own, and exam

time seemed to call up prayers from folks who didn't pray about anything

else.

But you are right, it does seem confusing. I think some of the teachers are

able to find other ways of working religion into school, even if they can't

pray. What I find sad is that in addition to this, so many other things

that I used to enjoy about holiday celebrations has also been removed. In

Pella, the kids can't have a Halloween party because it's a pagan holiday in

the minds of some parents, Valentine's Day parties are friendship parties,

etc. Why can't we just live and let live in so many areas of human life?

Jean

190/144.5/135

12/7/98

[Guest guest]

I think most public schools would NOT sponsor a school club related to

religion. There may be occasions where an outside religious-based org could

use school property [i.e. rent the gym, auditorium, etc], but it would not

fly under the school charter.

I think the fundamental reason was that schools insisted that students

participate in 'prayer' or they were disciplined for being disrespectful,

which led the parents of [primarily] non-Christians to protest, leading to

the supreme court ruling.

The biggest travesty occurs around the pagan rituals tied to religious holy

days, like Christmas, Easter, etc, which are fine to celebrate, as long as

there is no mention on the real reason for the day. Schools are allowed to

fully worship Santa, but no mention of Jesus; make Easter bunnies, but no

crosses. And don't even consider the non-Christian holy days...those are

unexcused absences!

HJ

----- Original Message -----

>

> I agree to a certain extent. Here is a question... I don't know if your

> High Schools have societies (they do in " Buffy the Vampire Slayer " and

> " the teenage Witch " so i'll assume you do )[0] but, what would

> your opinion be about a Christian Society where students meet and talk

> and pray and stuff. Since that is opt-in... as opposed to opt-out,

> shouldn't that be allowed?

[Guest guest]

A few years ago, one of the teachers here was using biblical text in

lessons. I can't recall if it was literature or history, but it was soon

curtailed.

HJ

----- Original Message -----

>

> But you are right, it does seem confusing. I think some of the teachers

are

> able to find other ways of working religion into school, even if they

can't

> pray. What I find sad is that in addition to this, so many other things

> that I used to enjoy about holiday celebrations has also been removed.

[Guest guest]

I am hoping I am misunderstanding what you wrote. THe Pagan holidays

have been celebrated for thousands of years. Long before the Christians

adopted them as their own.

I find it hard to avoid the Christian nature of the School holidays.

Christmas, Easter ect. We do not celebrate either of these holidays.

Santa is not ours either<L>. We celebrate Yule and the rebirth of the

Sun King. The end to the long winter and the beginning of longer days.

The reason Religion is not allowed in the schools is because of the

constitutional separation of church and state. This country was founded

on the belief that religious freedom is a basic right. They knew how

damaging a state religion would be.

> The biggest travesty occurs around the pagan rituals tied to religious holy

> days, like Christmas, Easter, etc, which are fine to celebrate, as long as

> there is no mention on the real reason for the day. Schools are allowed to

> fully worship Santa, but no mention of Jesus; make Easter bunnies, but no

> crosses. And don't even consider the non-Christian holy days...those are

> unexcused absences!

>

> HJ

[Guest guest]

>

> At the other extreme[0] is what I percieve the US style to be. From what I

> understand there is not allowed to be prayer in schools. Does that mean

> that the school cannot " encourage " prayer, make it a part of school activities

> or does that mean literally that if someone is praying in the middle of an

> exam they will be marched out of the building!

If the student prayes silently and quietly it is fine. If a student is

preaching he should be dismissed.

>

> Wifey's (who is a new teacher this year and loathing every minute of it)

school

> had a prayer meeting at the school flagpole this morning. It was allowed on

> school grounds as long as it was before school started.

>

> I'm confused.

>

> If the president calls a day " a day for rememberence and prayer " ... is that

not

> him speaking as a representative of the state and thus breaking this concept.

Absolutely. As does the phrase *one nation under God*

[Guest guest]

>

> At the other extreme[0] is what I percieve the US style to be. From what I

> understand there is not allowed to be prayer in schools. Does that mean

> that the school cannot " encourage " prayer, make it a part of school activities

> or does that mean literally that if someone is praying in the middle of an

> exam they will be marched out of the building!

If the student prayes silently and quietly it is fine. If a student is

preaching he should be dismissed.

>

> Wifey's (who is a new teacher this year and loathing every minute of it)

school

> had a prayer meeting at the school flagpole this morning. It was allowed on

> school grounds as long as it was before school started.

>

> I'm confused.

>

> If the president calls a day " a day for rememberence and prayer " ... is that

not

> him speaking as a representative of the state and thus breaking this concept.

Absolutely. As does the phrase *one nation under God*

[Guest guest]

Well, Jean, we are actually going to Maine at the end of next week. Hadn't

planned to take the laptop, but maybe I'll reconsider. You kids . . . . I'm

going to have to start giving some time outs!

Does some big old meanie want to volunteer to be moderator for September 28

through October 7? Somebody REALLY mean!

Terry

168/155.25/154 (minigoal)/ ? (To be determined)

Visit my web page at www.dtnorth.com

[Guest guest]

Well, Jean, we are actually going to Maine at the end of next week. Hadn't

planned to take the laptop, but maybe I'll reconsider. You kids . . . . I'm

going to have to start giving some time outs!

Does some big old meanie want to volunteer to be moderator for September 28

through October 7? Somebody REALLY mean!

Terry

168/155.25/154 (minigoal)/ ? (To be determined)

Visit my web page at www.dtnorth.com