Re: Interesting conversation: 504, the SATs and services in general

April 25, 2006

Jill,

My son goes to a private school and after a year long saga, I gave up

on the IEP/504 designation. It is a long story that makes me angry to

think about. In any case, last summer I had him classified as " needing

extra time " with the ETS. I don't know the exact classification, but

that's the gist of it. The school's special services coordinator called

me and suggested that he would do what he normally does in these cases.

Because he figures that there is a lot more information on my son on

his evaluation than they need, and these days, who knows where

information is going, he cited School and summarized their

evaluation. There was a huge emphasis on his having used extra time on

normal tests at school on a regular basis (this seemed almost more

important that the evaluation), and providing proof of this to ETS. He

filled out a form from ETS which we signed. A few weeks later, we

received confirmation from them that my son would be given the maximum

extra time on all their tests. The whole process was not as complicated

as I had been lead to believe. There was no need for any IDEA

classification, just the evaluation and a record of using extra time.

From: JillcWood@...

To: Listen-Up

Sent: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:16:10 EDT

Subject: Interesting conversation: 504, the SATs and

services in general

I just had a conversation with a TOD friend the issue we're having

getting

Ian's accommodations for the SATs. Seems it's not unusual for kids

classified

under 504. Our problem is that diagnostic testing was done 10+ years

ago, and

most of it has not been redone since and the PSAT/SAT need

documentation that

is less than 5 years old.

According to what she's been told, the issue isn't the classification

but

specifically the 504 classification. Apparently a number of years back

" rich

parents " discovered a glitch in the system. By intentionally having

their kids

diagnosed with a mild level of ADD, they could get extended time on

the SATs

and more time translated into better test results. Since 504 is not

based on

a specific learning disabilities, this classification was supposedly

not so

hard to do.

As a result of this ruse, it is now more difficult for kids classified

under

504 to get certain types of support, specifically extended time. So,

we're

having to provide a lot more paperwork than needed for kids with IDEA

classification, where the testing is done regularly to determine that

there is

still

an ongoing need for services.

Anyone else heard anything like this? I'm curious because the more

people I

talk with, the more I'm finding that the 504 kids are the ones being

asked

for the documentation, while the IDEA kids are being given the

requested

accommodations without question. (shrug)

Next interesting point in our conversation -- here in the lovely

state of

NY, several local districts have begun to argue that if a child is not

classified under IDEA (with demonstrable learning delays) and are

instead

classified

under 504, then they are not going to be eligible for TOD or related

services because they are not falling behind. (ARGH! I really hate this

routine!)

She asked me about this because our son is classified under 504 and

her kids

are all IDEA except one child. The district is talking about reducing

services for her 504 kid and she wants to know how we got around this

IDEA/504

" rule. " Over the years almost all of her kids (elementary school)

have been

IDEA. I don't know that our own TOD could answer this question --

she'd

probably

have the parents call me. I don't think TODs are educated in this

stuff at

all and must pick it up on the job when/if the opportunity presents

itself.

I explained that the " rule " is all in the district's head, they're

manipulating the data to suit themselves and their bottom line. Budget

cuts will

do

that. Rules for getting reimbursed for IDEA services are based on a

demonstrated learning disability and subsequent related needs.

According to our

district

Ian doesn't have this kind of need and therefore is properly classified

under 504. Yet Ian still receives all the services he had under IDEA,

and more

things have been added since his classification was changed to 504.

However, his services now are provided under the rules of the ADA

(Americans

with Disabilities Act) and I would argue that to withdraw them now

becomes a

violation of his civil rights as well as FAPE and the usual stuff we

talk

about here on Listen Up related to IEPs and the IDEA. If our district

tried to

remove services, I would appeal that to the Dept of Labor as well as

the Dept

of Ed. I gave her a quick run down on the 504/ADA stuff ... what I

learned

in the process of moving Ian from IDEA to 504 classification. Times

like this

I think I should go back to school for a law degree.

I just find it disturbing that local districts that had been providing

needed services are now looking for loopholes and are presenting " the

facts " as

though our D/HOH kids are only eligible for support if they are failing

academically. I told her to pass along my phone number to the parents,

and I'd

gladly help if I could. (sigh). So disheartening.

Best -- Jill

April 26, 2006

These people do not control the PSAT and SAT testing. Your son will need

documentation for THE COLLEGE BOARD and they are very strict about any

accommodations. You have to follow a special application process and provide

all sorts of documentation to receive special accommodations. And, it is

correct that IDEA kids get more of the benefit of the doubt. However, even

there, the accommodations can be no different than those which the child

receives during his normal school day. For example, we have recommendations of

extra time for testing in 's IEP. However, he refuses to be different and

does not take extra time. He's often one of the first finished anyway. So, he

has also refused the accommodation for the SAT and the school has stated that

even if he wanted it, because he is not receiving extra time during regular

testing, we would be hard pressed to convince The College Board that he would

need extra time. I went through the special exception process with my diabetic

daughter and she actually was not offered the extra time accommodation unless

she took a special test at another school. So she just lost the time from her

SAT for blood sugar testing and waiting for her insulin to kick in when she had

a high blood sugar from the stress. She still got a 1580 so we didn't make it

an issue. This year, for the 9th grade PSAT practice, the school provided no

notice until it was too late that all ninth graders were being given the PSAT

and we had no option for any accommodations. We are in the process of filing a

State complaint over that because all special ed kids were excluded unless they

chose to take the test anyway. Our son chose to take it for the practice,

irrelevant of the grade. For next year, we have to file paperwork for him to be

allowed to have an FM and/or CART for the instruction phase.

--------- Interesting conversation: 504, the SATs and

> services in general

>

> I just had a conversation with a TOD friend the issue we're having

> getting

> Ian's accommodations for the SATs. Seems it's not unusual for kids

> classified

> under 504. Our problem is that diagnostic testing was done 10+ years

> ago, and

> most of it has not been redone since and the PSAT/SAT need

> documentation that

> is less than 5 years old.

>

> According to what she's been told, the issue isn't the classification

> but

> specifically the 504 classification. Apparently a number of years back

> " rich

> parents " discovered a glitch in the system. By intentionally having

> their kids

> diagnosed with a mild level of ADD, they could get extended time on

> the SATs

> and more time translated into better test results. Since 504 is not

> based on

> a specific learning disabilities, this classification was supposedly

> not so

> hard to do.

>

> As a result of this ruse, it is now more difficult for kids classified

> under

> 504 to get certain types of support, specifically extended time. So,

> we're

> having to provide a lot more paperwork than needed for kids with IDEA

> classification, where the testing is done regularly to determine that

> there is

> still

> an ongoing need for services.

>

> Anyone else heard anything like this? I'm curious because the more

> people I

> talk with, the more I'm finding that the 504 kids are the ones being

> asked

> for the documentation, while the IDEA kids are being given the

> requested

> accommodations without question. (shrug)

>

> Next interesting point in our conversation -- here in the lovely

> state of

> NY, several local districts have begun to argue that if a child is not

> classified under IDEA (with demonstrable learning delays) and are

> instead

> classified

> under 504, then they are not going to be eligible for TOD or related

> services because they are not falling behind. (ARGH! I really hate this

>

> routine!)

>

> She asked me about this because our son is classified under 504 and

> her kids

> are all IDEA except one child. The district is talking about reducing

> services for her 504 kid and she wants to know how we got around this

> IDEA/504

> " rule. " Over the years almost all of her kids (elementary school)

> have been

> IDEA. I don't know that our own TOD could answer this question --

> she'd

> probably

> have the parents call me. I don't think TODs are educated in this

> stuff at

> all and must pick it up on the job when/if the opportunity presents

> itself.

>

> I explained that the " rule " is all in the district's head, they're

> manipulating the data to suit themselves and their bottom line. Budget

> cuts will

> do

> that. Rules for getting reimbursed for IDEA services are based on a

> demonstrated learning disability and subsequent related needs.

> According to our

> district

> Ian doesn't have this kind of need and therefore is properly classified

>

> under 504. Yet Ian still receives all the services he had under IDEA,

> and more

> things have been added since his classification was changed to 504.

>

> However, his services now are provided under the rules of the ADA

> (Americans

> with Disabilities Act) and I would argue that to withdraw them now

> becomes a

> violation of his civil rights as well as FAPE and the usual stuff we

> talk

> about here on Listen Up related to IEPs and the IDEA. If our district

> tried to

> remove services, I would appeal that to the Dept of Labor as well as

> the Dept

> of Ed. I gave her a quick run down on the 504/ADA stuff ... what I

> learned

> in the process of moving Ian from IDEA to 504 classification. Times

> like this

> I think I should go back to school for a law degree.

>

> I just find it disturbing that local districts that had been providing

> needed services are now looking for loopholes and are presenting " the

> facts " as

>

> though our D/HOH kids are only eligible for support if they are failing

>

> academically. I told her to pass along my phone number to the parents,

> and I'd

> gladly help if I could. (sigh). So disheartening.

>

> Best -- Jill

>

April 26, 2006

In a message dated 4/25/2006 10:51:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

stromms@... writes:

There was no need for any IDEA

classification, just the evaluation and a record of using extra time.

There's no need for IDEA for Ian either, he can be given accommodation by

showing proof of need. It just seems that kids with that IDEA classification

aren't being asked for the evaluation or record showing extra time was used. For

them all the school had to do was fill out the paperwork and cite the

classification - no proof given to demonstrate the need.

Our dilemma is that Ian's diagnostic testing is all about 10 years old, so

they won't accept that as proof of need. As though the kid somehow became

un-deaf in the past 10 years?! Ah well. The school has scheduled the testing, so

we're moving forward.

I'm glad you got the added time. Obviously you had current data to share, we

don't. All my letters are from 2-4th grades, and he's now a sophomore.

(shrug) Now I'll have all the documentation we need if the colleges ask for it

in

another 2 years.

Best -- Jill

April 26, 2006

In a message dated 4/26/2006 3:18:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

semesky@... writes:

This year, for the 9th grade PSAT practice, the school provided no notice

until it was too late that all ninth graders were being given the PSAT and we

had no option for any accommodations. ... We are in the process of filing a

State complaint over that because all special ed kids were excluded unless

they chose to take the test anyway. Our son chose to take it for the practice,

irrelevant of the grade. For next year, we have to file paperwork for him to

be allowed to have an FM and/or CART for the instruction phase.

A lot of the local schools have their 9th graders take the test as a

practice round, just not ours. I would definitely have your son take is again

the kids for Merit Scholarships, not the 9th. We found out Ian could have

taken it in 9th grade as a practice about 2 weeks before the testing, so it too

late to register, never mind getting any accommodations.

The deadline for having the accommodation request (either received or

approved, I'm not sure which) is in August, so you still have time to get this

done

for the fall. We're collecting the same pile of paperwork. What a pain, but

now I'll have updated paperwork which isn't a bad thing.

Best -- Jill

April 26, 2006

We went through this last year with the regular SAT (Maggie took it as a 7th

grader). She is in private school so has no 504/IDEA classification. We got a

letter from the audiologist stating her hearing loss and inabiility to

comprehend in a large group setting, and the principal filled out paperwork

stating she used the FM in school and had preferential seating and that was all

that was needed. She got use of an FM and testing in a smaller room. I called

and asked about accomodations for hearing loss and they said because that was a

distinct disability that we didn't need the evaluation at all. And this

accomodation will continue through taking the PSAT next year and the SAT after

that. So this part of the process was very smooth for us. When we got to the

site it was another story. No one knew what was going on and when pressed they

checked and sure enough they had notice of Maggie's need for accomodations.

They put her in a classroom in the front row instead of in the auditorium.

Re IEP v. 504. For an IEP, generally you do have to show that the child is

eligible by virtue of being behind. Sucks but that is how it works in most

places. The disability is not enough by itself (except in places like

Colorado!) you have to prove an adverse educational effect. With 504 and

hearing loss, the issue can also be access to the curriculum - they have to be

able to hear it or get it in an alternative format. So this is things like FM's.

interpreters, TOD, speech path svcs etc. We won an OCR complaint re 504 on this

very topic. Learning is not the only disability that 504 covers, it is ANY

disability. There are no requirements that the child be failing to receive

services under 504. That being said, IEP comes with extra funding esp from the

feds, 504 does not. Lots of schools classify them all as IDEA to get the extra

money. Some like mine, give every kid the very least they can get away with.

Interesting conversation: 504, the SATs and services in

general

>

>I just had a conversation with a TOD friend the issue we're having getting

>Ian's accommodations for the SATs. Seems it's not unusual for kids classified

>under 504. Our problem is that diagnostic testing was done 10+ years ago, and

>most of it has not been redone since and the PSAT/SAT need documentation that

>is less than 5 years old.

>

>According to what she's been told, the issue isn't the classification but

>specifically the 504 classification. Apparently a number of years back " rich

>parents " discovered a glitch in the system. By intentionally having their kids

>diagnosed with a mild level of ADD, they could get extended time on the SATs

>and more time translated into better test results. Since 504 is not based on

>a specific learning disabilities, this classification was supposedly not so

>hard to do.

>

>As a result of this ruse, it is now more difficult for kids classified under

>504 to get certain types of support, specifically extended time. So, we're

>having to provide a lot more paperwork than needed for kids with IDEA

>classification, where the testing is done regularly to determine that there is

still

>an ongoing need for services.

>

>Anyone else heard anything like this? I'm curious because the more people I

>talk with, the more I'm finding that the 504 kids are the ones being asked

>for the documentation, while the IDEA kids are being given the requested

>accommodations without question. (shrug)

>

>Next interesting point in our conversation -- here in the lovely state of

>NY, several local districts have begun to argue that if a child is not

>classified under IDEA (with demonstrable learning delays) and are instead

classified

>under 504, then they are not going to be eligible for TOD or related

>services because they are not falling behind. (ARGH! I really hate this

routine!)

>

>She asked me about this because our son is classified under 504 and her kids

>are all IDEA except one child. The district is talking about reducing

>services for her 504 kid and she wants to know how we got around this IDEA/504

> " rule. " Over the years almost all of her kids (elementary school) have been

>IDEA. I don't know that our own TOD could answer this question -- she'd

probably

>have the parents call me. I don't think TODs are educated in this stuff at

>all and must pick it up on the job when/if the opportunity presents itself.

>

>I explained that the " rule " is all in the district's head, they're

>manipulating the data to suit themselves and their bottom line. Budget cuts

will do

>that. Rules for getting reimbursed for IDEA services are based on a

>demonstrated learning disability and subsequent related needs. According to our

district

>Ian doesn't have this kind of need and therefore is properly classified

>under 504. Yet Ian still receives all the services he had under IDEA, and more

>things have been added since his classification was changed to 504.

>

>However, his services now are provided under the rules of the ADA (Americans

>with Disabilities Act) and I would argue that to withdraw them now becomes a

>violation of his civil rights as well as FAPE and the usual stuff we talk

>about here on Listen Up related to IEPs and the IDEA. If our district tried to

>remove services, I would appeal that to the Dept of Labor as well as the Dept

>of Ed. I gave her a quick run down on the 504/ADA stuff ... what I learned

>in the process of moving Ian from IDEA to 504 classification. Times like this

>I think I should go back to school for a law degree.

>

>I just find it disturbing that local districts that had been providing

>needed services are now looking for loopholes and are presenting " the facts " as

>though our D/HOH kids are only eligible for support if they are failing

>academically. I told her to pass along my phone number to the parents, and I'd

>gladly help if I could. (sigh). So disheartening.

>

>Best -- Jill

>

April 26, 2006