Re: Found Labs--Elaine, , Jody: Thyroid revisited

[Guest guest]

Hi Zoey,

I think the problem lies in your computer. The posts I got from you both came

across perfectly fine.

Thymus extract is sure worth a try, and I'm sure Standard Products would have

a good product. There is an old alternative technique of rubbing the thymus

to stimulate it that might be worth a try too. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Elaine dear,

To think you muddled through that horribly formatted post. You ARE an angel.

You've given me some good ideas which I want to mull over. I'm off to work now

but will get back later.

If I have a chance, I may order some glandular Thymus today to strengthen my

immune system. Do you know anything about that? The problem with Sterinol is

that they suggest you take it on an empty stomach and with eating a bunch of

small meals, and taking other empty stomach supplements, I don't have enough

empty stomachs left.

So good to hear from you. Love and Hugs, Zoey

Re: Found Labs--Elaine, , Jody: Thyroid

revisited

Hi Zoey,

It's great to hear from you.

It sounds like you may have Hashitoxicosis or are moving into it.

Hashitoxicosis is a condition primarily of Hasimoto's thyroiditis with

transient symptoms of hyper T caused by TSI. You can have symptoms of hypo

and hyper yet have normal labs.

TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. And while your TSI are within the normal range, a level

that high (99%) suggests that you're still producing TSI. People who are

really normal have TSI levels of <2% activity.

Your many vaccines before your trip may have stimulated your immune system,

and your condition may still be changing. You seem to be more on the hypo

side than the last time we talked. Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH

receptor antibodies? These can also cause you to move into hypo.

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

some thyroid function.

It would be good to have your antibody levels checked again in another month

to see if they're still actively rising.

You could try immunomodulators to strengthen your immune system.

Glycocentials are reported to help. I've been taking them, but haven't yet

checked my antibodies to see if they've diminished. If you get a chance to

pick up the book, Healing Sugars, you can decide if you think they're worth a

try. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Elaine dear,

To think you muddled through that horribly formatted post. You ARE an angel.

You've given me some good ideas which I want to mull over. I'm off to work now

but will get back later.

If I have a chance, I may order some glandular Thymus today to strengthen my

immune system. Do you know anything about that? The problem with Sterinol is

that they suggest you take it on an empty stomach and with eating a bunch of

small meals, and taking other empty stomach supplements, I don't have enough

empty stomachs left.

So good to hear from you. Love and Hugs, Zoey

Re: Found Labs--Elaine, , Jody: Thyroid

revisited

Hi Zoey,

It's great to hear from you.

It sounds like you may have Hashitoxicosis or are moving into it.

Hashitoxicosis is a condition primarily of Hasimoto's thyroiditis with

transient symptoms of hyper T caused by TSI. You can have symptoms of hypo

and hyper yet have normal labs.

TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. And while your TSI are within the normal range, a level

that high (99%) suggests that you're still producing TSI. People who are

really normal have TSI levels of <2% activity.

Your many vaccines before your trip may have stimulated your immune system,

and your condition may still be changing. You seem to be more on the hypo

side than the last time we talked. Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH

receptor antibodies? These can also cause you to move into hypo.

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

some thyroid function.

It would be good to have your antibody levels checked again in another month

to see if they're still actively rising.

You could try immunomodulators to strengthen your immune system.

Glycocentials are reported to help. I've been taking them, but haven't yet

checked my antibodies to see if they've diminished. If you get a chance to

pick up the book, Healing Sugars, you can decide if you think they're worth a

try. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Elaine dear,

To think you muddled through that horribly formatted post. You ARE an angel.

You've given me some good ideas which I want to mull over. I'm off to work now

but will get back later.

If I have a chance, I may order some glandular Thymus today to strengthen my

immune system. Do you know anything about that? The problem with Sterinol is

that they suggest you take it on an empty stomach and with eating a bunch of

small meals, and taking other empty stomach supplements, I don't have enough

empty stomachs left.

So good to hear from you. Love and Hugs, Zoey

Re: Found Labs--Elaine, , Jody: Thyroid

revisited

Hi Zoey,

It's great to hear from you.

It sounds like you may have Hashitoxicosis or are moving into it.

Hashitoxicosis is a condition primarily of Hasimoto's thyroiditis with

transient symptoms of hyper T caused by TSI. You can have symptoms of hypo

and hyper yet have normal labs.

TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. And while your TSI are within the normal range, a level

that high (99%) suggests that you're still producing TSI. People who are

really normal have TSI levels of <2% activity.

Your many vaccines before your trip may have stimulated your immune system,

and your condition may still be changing. You seem to be more on the hypo

side than the last time we talked. Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH

receptor antibodies? These can also cause you to move into hypo.

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

some thyroid function.

It would be good to have your antibody levels checked again in another month

to see if they're still actively rising.

You could try immunomodulators to strengthen your immune system.

Glycocentials are reported to help. I've been taking them, but haven't yet

checked my antibodies to see if they've diminished. If you get a chance to

pick up the book, Healing Sugars, you can decide if you think they're worth a

try. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Elaine,

I hope you have time for some questions. It looks like I have to get moving on

this since I have some MD appointments coming up. In your post to me, You

said:

" TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. "

How are the TPOs destructive? What do they do? Are you saying that the TSIs

can cause HyperT or HyperT symptoms? (Right, one can have Hyper symptoms and not

have HyperT? Same on the HypO side?). AND....The TPOs can cause HypO-T or HypO

symptoms? If that's the case and you have both TPOs and TSIs, (Both Hyper and

Hypo) how do you know what to treat and how to treat it?

" Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH receptor antibodies? These can also

cause you to move into hypo. "

Are those the TBABs? I don't think I've had them. Just the TRABs. How does

having blocking TSH receptor antibodies move me/someone into HypO? What causes

this?

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain some

thyroid function. "

This is a hard one. If taking T3 can lower my TSH and cause me to produce less

thyroid hormone, wouldn't taking T3 be dangerous if my T4 and TSH are already on

the low side? How does additional T3 cause a lowered TSH and a lowered T4? If

I were taking T3 or Armour and my TSH went way down like it did before, would

that be dangerous and a sign that I should stop taking T3 or Armour even if my

T4 and T3 were well within normal range?OR...would the TSH be irrelevant in this

case and only the T3 and T4 matter? I really need help with this one!!!!!

When you said " by adding Thyroid hormone " , what thyroid hormone were you

thinking of ? I always thought that when people who are HypoT take thyroid

hormone it increases their thyroid levels. Does it also make their thyroid slow

down and become lazy? If so, how would taking thyroid hormone help to regain

thyroid function.? I'm totally confused. On a " feel good " level, I'd like to

go back to taking T3 but don't want to get more out of balance. On a " health "

level, I need to get rid of my antibodies. Antibodies are a hard one and much

more difficult to get frequently monitored.

Sorry for all my never-ending questions. It is all Granny Chris's fault. She

asked me to come and drop by here. You can blame her.

The good news is that I don't think I am more HypO than when we last

spoke/wrote. I think I was suffering from a low grade infection that I must

have picked up from who has been feverish for several weeks and still Wind

Surfing every day in the highly polluted San Francisco Bay. He eventually got a

really bad bladder infection and FINALLY went to Doc and started to take Cipro.

He hasn't stopped windsurfing but maybe that Cipro will keep some of those water

bacteria away. I'm feeling better and way more alert. and he seems to be

improving too.

Graves disease is becoming very time consuming. Thank you Elaine and everyone

for your help and support. When is the AutoImmune book coming out?

With warm and healthy wishes, Zoey

(Elaine, I ordered some Thymus and Pituitrophen today from Standard. They just

moved their West Coast headquarters about 10 minutes away from where I live. )

http://www.standardprocess.com/index.asp

Re: Found Labs--Elaine, , Jody: Thyroid

revisited

Hi Zoey,

It's great to hear from you.

It sounds like you may have Hashitoxicosis or are moving into it.

Hashitoxicosis is a condition primarily of Hasimoto's thyroiditis with

transient symptoms of hyper T caused by TSI. You can have symptoms of hypo

and hyper yet have normal labs.

TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. And while your TSI are within the normal range, a level

that high (99%) suggests that you're still producing TSI. People who are

really normal have TSI levels of <2% activity.

Your many vaccines before your trip may have stimulated your immune system,

and your condition may still be changing. You seem to be more on the hypo

side than the last time we talked. Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH

receptor antibodies? These can also cause you to move into hypo.

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

some thyroid function.

It would be good to have your antibody levels checked again in another month

to see if they're still actively rising.

You could try immunomodulators to strengthen your immune system.

Glycocentials are reported to help. I've been taking them, but haven't yet

checked my antibodies to see if they've diminished. If you get a chance to

pick up the book, Healing Sugars, you can decide if you think they're worth a

try. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Elaine,

I hope you have time for some questions. It looks like I have to get moving on

this since I have some MD appointments coming up. In your post to me, You

said:

" TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. "

How are the TPOs destructive? What do they do? Are you saying that the TSIs

can cause HyperT or HyperT symptoms? (Right, one can have Hyper symptoms and not

have HyperT? Same on the HypO side?). AND....The TPOs can cause HypO-T or HypO

symptoms? If that's the case and you have both TPOs and TSIs, (Both Hyper and

Hypo) how do you know what to treat and how to treat it?

" Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH receptor antibodies? These can also

cause you to move into hypo. "

Are those the TBABs? I don't think I've had them. Just the TRABs. How does

having blocking TSH receptor antibodies move me/someone into HypO? What causes

this?

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain some

thyroid function. "

This is a hard one. If taking T3 can lower my TSH and cause me to produce less

thyroid hormone, wouldn't taking T3 be dangerous if my T4 and TSH are already on

the low side? How does additional T3 cause a lowered TSH and a lowered T4? If

I were taking T3 or Armour and my TSH went way down like it did before, would

that be dangerous and a sign that I should stop taking T3 or Armour even if my

T4 and T3 were well within normal range?OR...would the TSH be irrelevant in this

case and only the T3 and T4 matter? I really need help with this one!!!!!

When you said " by adding Thyroid hormone " , what thyroid hormone were you

thinking of ? I always thought that when people who are HypoT take thyroid

hormone it increases their thyroid levels. Does it also make their thyroid slow

down and become lazy? If so, how would taking thyroid hormone help to regain

thyroid function.? I'm totally confused. On a " feel good " level, I'd like to

go back to taking T3 but don't want to get more out of balance. On a " health "

level, I need to get rid of my antibodies. Antibodies are a hard one and much

more difficult to get frequently monitored.

Sorry for all my never-ending questions. It is all Granny Chris's fault. She

asked me to come and drop by here. You can blame her.

The good news is that I don't think I am more HypO than when we last

spoke/wrote. I think I was suffering from a low grade infection that I must

have picked up from who has been feverish for several weeks and still Wind

Surfing every day in the highly polluted San Francisco Bay. He eventually got a

really bad bladder infection and FINALLY went to Doc and started to take Cipro.

He hasn't stopped windsurfing but maybe that Cipro will keep some of those water

bacteria away. I'm feeling better and way more alert. and he seems to be

improving too.

Graves disease is becoming very time consuming. Thank you Elaine and everyone

for your help and support. When is the AutoImmune book coming out?

With warm and healthy wishes, Zoey

(Elaine, I ordered some Thymus and Pituitrophen today from Standard. They just

moved their West Coast headquarters about 10 minutes away from where I live. )

http://www.standardprocess.com/index.asp

Re: Found Labs--Elaine, , Jody: Thyroid

revisited

Hi Zoey,

It's great to hear from you.

It sounds like you may have Hashitoxicosis or are moving into it.

Hashitoxicosis is a condition primarily of Hasimoto's thyroiditis with

transient symptoms of hyper T caused by TSI. You can have symptoms of hypo

and hyper yet have normal labs.

TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. And while your TSI are within the normal range, a level

that high (99%) suggests that you're still producing TSI. People who are

really normal have TSI levels of <2% activity.

Your many vaccines before your trip may have stimulated your immune system,

and your condition may still be changing. You seem to be more on the hypo

side than the last time we talked. Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH

receptor antibodies? These can also cause you to move into hypo.

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

some thyroid function.

It would be good to have your antibody levels checked again in another month

to see if they're still actively rising.

You could try immunomodulators to strengthen your immune system.

Glycocentials are reported to help. I've been taking them, but haven't yet

checked my antibodies to see if they've diminished. If you get a chance to

pick up the book, Healing Sugars, you can decide if you think they're worth a

try. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Elaine,

I hope you have time for some questions. It looks like I have to get moving on

this since I have some MD appointments coming up. In your post to me, You

said:

" TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. "

How are the TPOs destructive? What do they do? Are you saying that the TSIs

can cause HyperT or HyperT symptoms? (Right, one can have Hyper symptoms and not

have HyperT? Same on the HypO side?). AND....The TPOs can cause HypO-T or HypO

symptoms? If that's the case and you have both TPOs and TSIs, (Both Hyper and

Hypo) how do you know what to treat and how to treat it?

" Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH receptor antibodies? These can also

cause you to move into hypo. "

Are those the TBABs? I don't think I've had them. Just the TRABs. How does

having blocking TSH receptor antibodies move me/someone into HypO? What causes

this?

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain some

thyroid function. "

This is a hard one. If taking T3 can lower my TSH and cause me to produce less

thyroid hormone, wouldn't taking T3 be dangerous if my T4 and TSH are already on

the low side? How does additional T3 cause a lowered TSH and a lowered T4? If

I were taking T3 or Armour and my TSH went way down like it did before, would

that be dangerous and a sign that I should stop taking T3 or Armour even if my

T4 and T3 were well within normal range?OR...would the TSH be irrelevant in this

case and only the T3 and T4 matter? I really need help with this one!!!!!

When you said " by adding Thyroid hormone " , what thyroid hormone were you

thinking of ? I always thought that when people who are HypoT take thyroid

hormone it increases their thyroid levels. Does it also make their thyroid slow

down and become lazy? If so, how would taking thyroid hormone help to regain

thyroid function.? I'm totally confused. On a " feel good " level, I'd like to

go back to taking T3 but don't want to get more out of balance. On a " health "

level, I need to get rid of my antibodies. Antibodies are a hard one and much

more difficult to get frequently monitored.

Sorry for all my never-ending questions. It is all Granny Chris's fault. She

asked me to come and drop by here. You can blame her.

The good news is that I don't think I am more HypO than when we last

spoke/wrote. I think I was suffering from a low grade infection that I must

have picked up from who has been feverish for several weeks and still Wind

Surfing every day in the highly polluted San Francisco Bay. He eventually got a

really bad bladder infection and FINALLY went to Doc and started to take Cipro.

He hasn't stopped windsurfing but maybe that Cipro will keep some of those water

bacteria away. I'm feeling better and way more alert. and he seems to be

improving too.

Graves disease is becoming very time consuming. Thank you Elaine and everyone

for your help and support. When is the AutoImmune book coming out?

With warm and healthy wishes, Zoey

(Elaine, I ordered some Thymus and Pituitrophen today from Standard. They just

moved their West Coast headquarters about 10 minutes away from where I live. )

http://www.standardprocess.com/index.asp

Re: Found Labs--Elaine, , Jody: Thyroid

revisited

Hi Zoey,

It's great to hear from you.

It sounds like you may have Hashitoxicosis or are moving into it.

Hashitoxicosis is a condition primarily of Hasimoto's thyroiditis with

transient symptoms of hyper T caused by TSI. You can have symptoms of hypo

and hyper yet have normal labs.

TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely causing

this move into hypoT. And while your TSI are within the normal range, a level

that high (99%) suggests that you're still producing TSI. People who are

really normal have TSI levels of <2% activity.

Your many vaccines before your trip may have stimulated your immune system,

and your condition may still be changing. You seem to be more on the hypo

side than the last time we talked. Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH

receptor antibodies? These can also cause you to move into hypo.

Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

some thyroid function.

It would be good to have your antibody levels checked again in another month

to see if they're still actively rising.

You could try immunomodulators to strengthen your immune system.

Glycocentials are reported to help. I've been taking them, but haven't yet

checked my antibodies to see if they've diminished. If you get a chance to

pick up the book, Healing Sugars, you can decide if you think they're worth a

try. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Zoey,

To prevent me from forgetting the key points of your message, I'm going to

dissect it here

In a message dated 11/6/02 9:20:15 PM Mountain Standard Time, xhoji@...

writes:

> In your post to me, You said:

>

> " TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely

> causing this move into hypoT. "

>

> How are the TPOs destructive? What do they do? They destroy the enzyme

> thyroid peroxidase which is needed for thyroid cell function and thyroid

> hormone production. A recent article in Thyroid, the journal, described

> thyroid peroxidase antibodies as being far more cytotoxic than

> thyroglobulin antibodies. The good news is that several recent studies show

> that people with no TPO antibodies and positive TSI antibodies are more

> likely to develop autoimmune GO so in this sense TPO antibodies have a

> protective effect.

Are you saying that the TSIs can cause HyperT or HyperT symptoms? (Right, one

> can have Hyper symptoms and not have HyperT? Same on the HypO side?).

> AND....The TPOs can cause HypO-T or HypO symptoms? If that's the case and

> you have both TPOs and TSIs, (Both Hyper and Hypo) how do you know what to

> treat and how to treat it?

Whatever antibody is predominating will cause the predominant symptoms.

People who have euthyroid Graves' disease generally have both blocking and

stimulating TSH receptor antibodies. The effects of each cancel each other

out when it comes to lab tests, but patients may complain of symptoms related

to thyroid dysfunction. And yes, you can have thyroid antibodies, in lower

titers, and have thyroid autoimmunity but not autoimmune thyroid disease if

there are no disease symptoms.

>

> " Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH receptor antibodies? These can

> also cause you to move into hypo. "

>

> Are those the TBABs? I don't think I've had them. Just the TRABs. How

> does having blocking TSH receptor antibodies move me/someone into HypO?

> What causes this?

Yes, these are the TBABs. If you had total TRAB or TBII these tests would

measure both but not necessarily tell you if both are present. Some labs give

a total value, whereas some labs break down the TRAB test into stimulating

and blocking Abs.

Alternately, you can have a TBII test and a TSI test. Provided the tests are

reported in similar units of measurement, a much higher TBII than TSI would

indicate that you have both blocking and stimulating TRAb.

>

> Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

> thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

> gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

> some thyroid function. "

When you take thyroid hormone and your levels rise, your pituitary recognizes

that you're not totally dependent on its help to maintain normal thyroid

hormone levels. As your T3 and T4 levels rise, the pituitary secretes less

TSH in an effort to keep your levels from becoming too high. With a small

dose of T3, you shouldn't knock your TSH down from the normal range.

Thyroid hormone slows down your thyroid cells. From what I wrote again, you

see that there's less TSH reacting with the thyroid cells causing the cells

to produce and release thyroid hormone. So the cells slow down; this

decreased activity (putting the thyroid to sleep some call it) is reported to

also slow down thyroid antibody production because most thyroid antibodies

are produced within the thyroid gland.

>

> This is a hard one. If taking T3 can lower my TSH and cause me to produce

> less thyroid hormone, wouldn't taking T3 be dangerous if my T4 and TSH are

> already on the low side?

It wouldn't be dangerous if you need the thyroid hormone; if you need thyroid

hormone, your thyroid hormone output is already low. If you can eventually

reduce your thyroid antibody levels, the thyroid hormone you produce would

work more effectively. But yes, your body does get used to supplemental

thyroid hormone and will produce less than it would. Then your thyroid

hormone levels become pretty dependent on supplemental hormone.

How does additional T3 cause a lowered TSH and a lowered T4?

I described that above.

If I were taking T3

> or Armour and my TSH went way down like it did before, would that be

> dangerous and a sign that I should stop taking T3 or Armour even if my T4

> and T3 were well within normal range?

Not necessarily. Your pituitary recognizes TRAb as if these antibodies were

TSH. So it thinks you have sufficient TSH and produces and releases less than

it normally would. So your level is already misleading. The FT4 and FT3 are

far more important since they measure the thyroid hormone available to react

with your cells causing the actions associated with thyroid hrmone.

OR...would the TSH be irrelevant in this case and only the T3 and T4 matter?

I really

> need help with this one!!!!! Yes, in autoimmune thyroid disease, TSH can

> be misleading and worse than irrelevant. If you remember, my TSH is always

> low but my thyroid hormone levels are fine. When one doctor (actually a

> few) tried monitoring me with TSH alone, i was quite hypothryoid. People

> who don't have lots of TRAb have TSH levels that are more reliable.

>

> When you said " by adding Thyroid hormone " , what thyroid hormone were you

> thinking of ?

Either T4, T3 or both.

I always thought that when people who are HypoT take thyroid hormone it

increases

> their thyroid levels.

Yes, it increases their thyroid hormone levels, but it slows down the amount

of thyroid hormone that they make if the added hormone makes their levels

more than adequate.

Does it also make their thyroid slow down and become lazy?

Yes, but I think inefficient is more descriptive than lazy. That's why it's

commonly said that once you are hypothryoid you will always need thyroid

hormone. Of course, this isn't true, because autoimmune hypoT can always move

in hyperT if the immune system begins producing more TSI.

If so, how would

> taking thyroid hormone help to regain thyroid function.? I'm totally

> confused.

Think about the antibodies here and not the hormone. TRAb can either

stimulate your TSH receptor or block TSH from activating it. If you slow your

thyroid gland down, by using thyroid hormone or block and replace and lower

your antibody titers, you will help in regaining normal thyroid function.

On a " feel good " level, I'd like to go back to taking T3 but don't want to

get more out

> of balance. On a " health " level, I need to get rid of my antibodies.

> Antibodies are a hard one and much more difficult to get frequently

> monitored.

With fluctuating antibody levels, you may not need to take T3 everyday. If I

recall, you were taking it before on an " as needed " basis. In mild hypot,

that, and watching your diet, are often all that's needed. If your antibody

levels decline, you'd need the T3 less often.

>

> Sorry for all my never-ending questions. It is all Granny Chris's fault.

> She asked me to come and drop by here. You can blame her.

>

> The good news is that I don't think I am more HypO than when we last

> spoke/wrote. I think I was suffering from a low grade infection that I

> must have picked up from who has been feverish for several weeks and

> still Wind Surfing every day in the highly polluted San Francisco Bay. He

> eventually got a really bad bladder infection and FINALLY went to Doc and

> started to take Cipro. He hasn't stopped windsurfing but maybe that Cipro

> will keep some of those water bacteria away. I'm feeling better and way

> more alert. and he seems to be improving too.

Glad to hear you're both improving. The trip must have done you good. All

that climbing would have done me in.

>

> Graves disease is becoming very time consuming. Thank you Elaine and

> everyone for your help and support. When is the AutoImmune book coming out?

>

The autoimmune book came out on June 8th the day before the Hayman Fire

started. needless to say, I've yet to work on really promoting it or

finishing my autoimmune disease web site. I did finish my GO book though and

it will be out this spring.

>

> With warm and healthy wishes, Zoey

> (Elaine, I ordered some Thymus and Pituitrophen today from Standard. They

> just moved their West Coast headquarters about 10 minutes away from where I

> live. )

> http://www.standardprocess.com/index.asp

>

> Good. I still have some pituitrophin and need to experiment with it more.

> If your thyroid pituitary axis is sluggish or confused after witnessing

> your hyperthyroidism, pituitrophin can be beneficial in sort of

> jump-starting the gland. Still, though, you need to rid yourself of the

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Zoey,

To prevent me from forgetting the key points of your message, I'm going to

dissect it here

In a message dated 11/6/02 9:20:15 PM Mountain Standard Time, xhoji@...

writes:

> In your post to me, You said:

>

> " TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely

> causing this move into hypoT. "

>

> How are the TPOs destructive? What do they do? They destroy the enzyme

> thyroid peroxidase which is needed for thyroid cell function and thyroid

> hormone production. A recent article in Thyroid, the journal, described

> thyroid peroxidase antibodies as being far more cytotoxic than

> thyroglobulin antibodies. The good news is that several recent studies show

> that people with no TPO antibodies and positive TSI antibodies are more

> likely to develop autoimmune GO so in this sense TPO antibodies have a

> protective effect.

Are you saying that the TSIs can cause HyperT or HyperT symptoms? (Right, one

> can have Hyper symptoms and not have HyperT? Same on the HypO side?).

> AND....The TPOs can cause HypO-T or HypO symptoms? If that's the case and

> you have both TPOs and TSIs, (Both Hyper and Hypo) how do you know what to

> treat and how to treat it?

Whatever antibody is predominating will cause the predominant symptoms.

People who have euthyroid Graves' disease generally have both blocking and

stimulating TSH receptor antibodies. The effects of each cancel each other

out when it comes to lab tests, but patients may complain of symptoms related

to thyroid dysfunction. And yes, you can have thyroid antibodies, in lower

titers, and have thyroid autoimmunity but not autoimmune thyroid disease if

there are no disease symptoms.

>

> " Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH receptor antibodies? These can

> also cause you to move into hypo. "

>

> Are those the TBABs? I don't think I've had them. Just the TRABs. How

> does having blocking TSH receptor antibodies move me/someone into HypO?

> What causes this?

Yes, these are the TBABs. If you had total TRAB or TBII these tests would

measure both but not necessarily tell you if both are present. Some labs give

a total value, whereas some labs break down the TRAB test into stimulating

and blocking Abs.

Alternately, you can have a TBII test and a TSI test. Provided the tests are

reported in similar units of measurement, a much higher TBII than TSI would

indicate that you have both blocking and stimulating TRAb.

>

> Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

> thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

> gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

> some thyroid function. "

When you take thyroid hormone and your levels rise, your pituitary recognizes

that you're not totally dependent on its help to maintain normal thyroid

hormone levels. As your T3 and T4 levels rise, the pituitary secretes less

TSH in an effort to keep your levels from becoming too high. With a small

dose of T3, you shouldn't knock your TSH down from the normal range.

Thyroid hormone slows down your thyroid cells. From what I wrote again, you

see that there's less TSH reacting with the thyroid cells causing the cells

to produce and release thyroid hormone. So the cells slow down; this

decreased activity (putting the thyroid to sleep some call it) is reported to

also slow down thyroid antibody production because most thyroid antibodies

are produced within the thyroid gland.

>

> This is a hard one. If taking T3 can lower my TSH and cause me to produce

> less thyroid hormone, wouldn't taking T3 be dangerous if my T4 and TSH are

> already on the low side?

It wouldn't be dangerous if you need the thyroid hormone; if you need thyroid

hormone, your thyroid hormone output is already low. If you can eventually

reduce your thyroid antibody levels, the thyroid hormone you produce would

work more effectively. But yes, your body does get used to supplemental

thyroid hormone and will produce less than it would. Then your thyroid

hormone levels become pretty dependent on supplemental hormone.

How does additional T3 cause a lowered TSH and a lowered T4?

I described that above.

If I were taking T3

> or Armour and my TSH went way down like it did before, would that be

> dangerous and a sign that I should stop taking T3 or Armour even if my T4

> and T3 were well within normal range?

Not necessarily. Your pituitary recognizes TRAb as if these antibodies were

TSH. So it thinks you have sufficient TSH and produces and releases less than

it normally would. So your level is already misleading. The FT4 and FT3 are

far more important since they measure the thyroid hormone available to react

with your cells causing the actions associated with thyroid hrmone.

OR...would the TSH be irrelevant in this case and only the T3 and T4 matter?

I really

> need help with this one!!!!! Yes, in autoimmune thyroid disease, TSH can

> be misleading and worse than irrelevant. If you remember, my TSH is always

> low but my thyroid hormone levels are fine. When one doctor (actually a

> few) tried monitoring me with TSH alone, i was quite hypothryoid. People

> who don't have lots of TRAb have TSH levels that are more reliable.

>

> When you said " by adding Thyroid hormone " , what thyroid hormone were you

> thinking of ?

Either T4, T3 or both.

I always thought that when people who are HypoT take thyroid hormone it

increases

> their thyroid levels.

Yes, it increases their thyroid hormone levels, but it slows down the amount

of thyroid hormone that they make if the added hormone makes their levels

more than adequate.

Does it also make their thyroid slow down and become lazy?

Yes, but I think inefficient is more descriptive than lazy. That's why it's

commonly said that once you are hypothryoid you will always need thyroid

hormone. Of course, this isn't true, because autoimmune hypoT can always move

in hyperT if the immune system begins producing more TSI.

If so, how would

> taking thyroid hormone help to regain thyroid function.? I'm totally

> confused.

Think about the antibodies here and not the hormone. TRAb can either

stimulate your TSH receptor or block TSH from activating it. If you slow your

thyroid gland down, by using thyroid hormone or block and replace and lower

your antibody titers, you will help in regaining normal thyroid function.

On a " feel good " level, I'd like to go back to taking T3 but don't want to

get more out

> of balance. On a " health " level, I need to get rid of my antibodies.

> Antibodies are a hard one and much more difficult to get frequently

> monitored.

With fluctuating antibody levels, you may not need to take T3 everyday. If I

recall, you were taking it before on an " as needed " basis. In mild hypot,

that, and watching your diet, are often all that's needed. If your antibody

levels decline, you'd need the T3 less often.

>

> Sorry for all my never-ending questions. It is all Granny Chris's fault.

> She asked me to come and drop by here. You can blame her.

>

> The good news is that I don't think I am more HypO than when we last

> spoke/wrote. I think I was suffering from a low grade infection that I

> must have picked up from who has been feverish for several weeks and

> still Wind Surfing every day in the highly polluted San Francisco Bay. He

> eventually got a really bad bladder infection and FINALLY went to Doc and

> started to take Cipro. He hasn't stopped windsurfing but maybe that Cipro

> will keep some of those water bacteria away. I'm feeling better and way

> more alert. and he seems to be improving too.

Glad to hear you're both improving. The trip must have done you good. All

that climbing would have done me in.

>

> Graves disease is becoming very time consuming. Thank you Elaine and

> everyone for your help and support. When is the AutoImmune book coming out?

>

The autoimmune book came out on June 8th the day before the Hayman Fire

started. needless to say, I've yet to work on really promoting it or

finishing my autoimmune disease web site. I did finish my GO book though and

it will be out this spring.

>

> With warm and healthy wishes, Zoey

> (Elaine, I ordered some Thymus and Pituitrophen today from Standard. They

> just moved their West Coast headquarters about 10 minutes away from where I

> live. )

> http://www.standardprocess.com/index.asp

>

> Good. I still have some pituitrophin and need to experiment with it more.

> If your thyroid pituitary axis is sluggish or confused after witnessing

> your hyperthyroidism, pituitrophin can be beneficial in sort of

> jump-starting the gland. Still, though, you need to rid yourself of the

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Zoey,

To prevent me from forgetting the key points of your message, I'm going to

dissect it here

In a message dated 11/6/02 9:20:15 PM Mountain Standard Time, xhoji@...

writes:

> In your post to me, You said:

>

> " TPO antibodies are very destructive to thyroid tissue and are likely

> causing this move into hypoT. "

>

> How are the TPOs destructive? What do they do? They destroy the enzyme

> thyroid peroxidase which is needed for thyroid cell function and thyroid

> hormone production. A recent article in Thyroid, the journal, described

> thyroid peroxidase antibodies as being far more cytotoxic than

> thyroglobulin antibodies. The good news is that several recent studies show

> that people with no TPO antibodies and positive TSI antibodies are more

> likely to develop autoimmune GO so in this sense TPO antibodies have a

> protective effect.

Are you saying that the TSIs can cause HyperT or HyperT symptoms? (Right, one

> can have Hyper symptoms and not have HyperT? Same on the HypO side?).

> AND....The TPOs can cause HypO-T or HypO symptoms? If that's the case and

> you have both TPOs and TSIs, (Both Hyper and Hypo) how do you know what to

> treat and how to treat it?

Whatever antibody is predominating will cause the predominant symptoms.

People who have euthyroid Graves' disease generally have both blocking and

stimulating TSH receptor antibodies. The effects of each cancel each other

out when it comes to lab tests, but patients may complain of symptoms related

to thyroid dysfunction. And yes, you can have thyroid antibodies, in lower

titers, and have thyroid autoimmunity but not autoimmune thyroid disease if

there are no disease symptoms.

>

> " Have you ever been tested for blocking TSH receptor antibodies? These can

> also cause you to move into hypo. "

>

> Are those the TBABs? I don't think I've had them. Just the TRABs. How

> does having blocking TSH receptor antibodies move me/someone into HypO?

> What causes this?

Yes, these are the TBABs. If you had total TRAB or TBII these tests would

measure both but not necessarily tell you if both are present. Some labs give

a total value, whereas some labs break down the TRAB test into stimulating

and blocking Abs.

Alternately, you can have a TBII test and a TSI test. Provided the tests are

reported in similar units of measurement, a much higher TBII than TSI would

indicate that you have both blocking and stimulating TRAb.

>

> Taking T3 will lower your TSH, and that can cause your body to produce less

> thyroid hormone. But adding thyroid hormone also slows down your thyroid

> gland and helps reduce antibody production. So ultimately, you could regain

> some thyroid function. "

When you take thyroid hormone and your levels rise, your pituitary recognizes

that you're not totally dependent on its help to maintain normal thyroid

hormone levels. As your T3 and T4 levels rise, the pituitary secretes less

TSH in an effort to keep your levels from becoming too high. With a small

dose of T3, you shouldn't knock your TSH down from the normal range.

Thyroid hormone slows down your thyroid cells. From what I wrote again, you

see that there's less TSH reacting with the thyroid cells causing the cells

to produce and release thyroid hormone. So the cells slow down; this

decreased activity (putting the thyroid to sleep some call it) is reported to

also slow down thyroid antibody production because most thyroid antibodies

are produced within the thyroid gland.

>

> This is a hard one. If taking T3 can lower my TSH and cause me to produce

> less thyroid hormone, wouldn't taking T3 be dangerous if my T4 and TSH are

> already on the low side?

It wouldn't be dangerous if you need the thyroid hormone; if you need thyroid

hormone, your thyroid hormone output is already low. If you can eventually

reduce your thyroid antibody levels, the thyroid hormone you produce would

work more effectively. But yes, your body does get used to supplemental

thyroid hormone and will produce less than it would. Then your thyroid

hormone levels become pretty dependent on supplemental hormone.

How does additional T3 cause a lowered TSH and a lowered T4?

I described that above.

If I were taking T3

> or Armour and my TSH went way down like it did before, would that be

> dangerous and a sign that I should stop taking T3 or Armour even if my T4

> and T3 were well within normal range?

Not necessarily. Your pituitary recognizes TRAb as if these antibodies were

TSH. So it thinks you have sufficient TSH and produces and releases less than

it normally would. So your level is already misleading. The FT4 and FT3 are

far more important since they measure the thyroid hormone available to react

with your cells causing the actions associated with thyroid hrmone.

OR...would the TSH be irrelevant in this case and only the T3 and T4 matter?

I really

> need help with this one!!!!! Yes, in autoimmune thyroid disease, TSH can

> be misleading and worse than irrelevant. If you remember, my TSH is always

> low but my thyroid hormone levels are fine. When one doctor (actually a

> few) tried monitoring me with TSH alone, i was quite hypothryoid. People

> who don't have lots of TRAb have TSH levels that are more reliable.

>

> When you said " by adding Thyroid hormone " , what thyroid hormone were you

> thinking of ?

Either T4, T3 or both.

I always thought that when people who are HypoT take thyroid hormone it

increases

> their thyroid levels.

Yes, it increases their thyroid hormone levels, but it slows down the amount

of thyroid hormone that they make if the added hormone makes their levels

more than adequate.

Does it also make their thyroid slow down and become lazy?

Yes, but I think inefficient is more descriptive than lazy. That's why it's

commonly said that once you are hypothryoid you will always need thyroid

hormone. Of course, this isn't true, because autoimmune hypoT can always move

in hyperT if the immune system begins producing more TSI.

If so, how would

> taking thyroid hormone help to regain thyroid function.? I'm totally

> confused.

Think about the antibodies here and not the hormone. TRAb can either

stimulate your TSH receptor or block TSH from activating it. If you slow your

thyroid gland down, by using thyroid hormone or block and replace and lower

your antibody titers, you will help in regaining normal thyroid function.

On a " feel good " level, I'd like to go back to taking T3 but don't want to

get more out

> of balance. On a " health " level, I need to get rid of my antibodies.

> Antibodies are a hard one and much more difficult to get frequently

> monitored.

With fluctuating antibody levels, you may not need to take T3 everyday. If I

recall, you were taking it before on an " as needed " basis. In mild hypot,

that, and watching your diet, are often all that's needed. If your antibody

levels decline, you'd need the T3 less often.

>

> Sorry for all my never-ending questions. It is all Granny Chris's fault.

> She asked me to come and drop by here. You can blame her.

>

> The good news is that I don't think I am more HypO than when we last

> spoke/wrote. I think I was suffering from a low grade infection that I

> must have picked up from who has been feverish for several weeks and

> still Wind Surfing every day in the highly polluted San Francisco Bay. He

> eventually got a really bad bladder infection and FINALLY went to Doc and

> started to take Cipro. He hasn't stopped windsurfing but maybe that Cipro

> will keep some of those water bacteria away. I'm feeling better and way

> more alert. and he seems to be improving too.

Glad to hear you're both improving. The trip must have done you good. All

that climbing would have done me in.

>

> Graves disease is becoming very time consuming. Thank you Elaine and

> everyone for your help and support. When is the AutoImmune book coming out?

>

The autoimmune book came out on June 8th the day before the Hayman Fire

started. needless to say, I've yet to work on really promoting it or

finishing my autoimmune disease web site. I did finish my GO book though and

it will be out this spring.

>

> With warm and healthy wishes, Zoey

> (Elaine, I ordered some Thymus and Pituitrophen today from Standard. They

> just moved their West Coast headquarters about 10 minutes away from where I

> live. )

> http://www.standardprocess.com/index.asp

>

> Good. I still have some pituitrophin and need to experiment with it more.

> If your thyroid pituitary axis is sluggish or confused after witnessing

> your hyperthyroidism, pituitrophin can be beneficial in sort of

> jump-starting the gland. Still, though, you need to rid yourself of the

>