Re: This sound right?

[Guest guest]

geneva248 wrote:

>

> The free T4 was at the very uppermost end of normal

> however.

This is normal for those on levothyroxine only as thyroid

hormone replacement, which I think you are?

> The endo (NP) dropped the synthroid to .1

> and wants to wait for eight weeks to run the autoimmunity panel.

> And maybe this is why I'm freezing to death

> under several blankets?

I only do that when hypo, or suffering an infection..... so I'd

be cautious of reducing the synthroid, although the heart

symptoms sound worrying.

Someone more with it will be along soon to make more useful

comment.

Take care,

Simon

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel -

I noticed 2 things - your high TSH and hypO symptoms

(regardless of the higher end T4 level) probably means your T3

is too low. The T4 you ARE getting might not be converting to

to T3. Low T3 can equal high TSH, and make you feel hypO.

It would be a good idea to get your T3 levels tested - Free T3

if you can get it. I'm finding that most people who need replacement

hormone need to add T3 replacement instead of increasing

the thyroxine alone. I know they want to lower your thyroxine,

but I don't think that is going to help matters, with the high TSH

and all.

And the other thing, the coated tongue caught my attention.

That is what I get when my gut is doing badly, and it

can be a sign of candida infestation. The antibiotics you

were taking probably really upset the intestinal flora, and

the 3-1/2 months of diarrhea REALLY points to this.

Can you take some live acidophilus, or REAL yogurt -- one that has

live cultures listed in the ingredients, instead of cheap fillers.

Dannon is just one of the brands of real yogurt.

Just an idea or two,

Best Wishes,

Chris

> Hey All you smart and informed people.

>

> I just need to touch base to see if you all think I'm maybe,

finally

> on the right track. RAI twice (stupid, stupid, stupid) and then

was

> given toxic shock last may with a steroid injection. I was

thinking

> that what I had was the aftereffects of TSS but, as Elaine

suggested,

> the problem might be partly thyroid. I had three and a half months

> of diarrhea from the antibiotics and it may have interferred with

the

> absorption of nutrients as well as the synthroid.

>

> Got a new endo because the old one didn't have an office staff who

> could refill a script even. The new one is actually a nurse

> practioner. Lent her my copy of labs (she didn't believe the TSH

of

> 69!) so I don't have the ability to look back and see old stuff

just

> now. I wrote down the latest stuff (sept.) and everything was

within

> normal limits. The free T4 was at the very uppermost end of normal

> however. I have had positive antibodies as well as a positive

ANA.

> Rhumatologist didn't do a thing about either and the antibodies

have

> not been repeated for at least a year, more like 18 mos.

>

> I have been seeing a chiropractor (bless her heart she is the

best!)

> every week for several months and have just over a month of seeing

an

> acupuncturist twice a week. He is the greatest! I think that the

> interventions, plus the nutritionist (what a lot of supplements!)

is

> helping the autoimmunity. The endo (NP) dropped the synthroid

to .1

> and wants to wait for eight weeks to run the autoimmunity panel.

>

> Does this make sense? I'm thinking that even though the labs seem

> normal there is something nasty going on at a cellular level. And

> the inability to absorb anything for all those weeks might have

> wrecked havoc. As the accupuncture makes things better on the

> cellular level the symptoms become clearer.

> Secondly...........I have noticed that a great deal of the pain

which

> was inflicted on different body parts during the TSS episode now

> seems to be mostly muscular. Well a lot of it is. Can this be FMS

> again from being hypo? And maybe this is why I'm freezing to death

> under several blankets? I'm also exhausted, have palpitations and

> ectopics every evening until I go to bed. Also still have the

coated

> tongue, and the eye burning. But both eyes are less buggy and the

> bad one, even though it feels crappy seems to have less lid lag.

>

> My apologies to all of you who have explained this so often and so

> carefully. Its beginning to make some sense but I've been really

> dense for some time.

>

> Finally.........there is a fantastic article in November's

Scientific

> American (should be online for all of you elswhere than the States

by

> next month). The article deals with the work being done on

dendritic

> cells and its possible consequences for diseases of autoimmunity

(and

> other stuff)

>

> The lab slip reads " throid AB (ATA,TPO) " and " T4, free direct

> dialysis " Is there anything else that I should ask for? I know

that

> I should know this stuff by now and I apologize for being wimpy but

I

> really want to get this right this time.

>

> Thanks to you all,

> Laurel

[Guest guest]

Also, balancing the gut flora can help cut down on antibody

production. It's a long explanation, but I can find a link to

explain this action better than I can.

Will post it tomorrow if you like -

Chris

> > Hey All you smart and informed people.

> >

> > I just need to touch base to see if you all think I'm maybe,

> finally

> > on the right track. RAI twice (stupid, stupid, stupid) and then

> was

> > given toxic shock last may with a steroid injection. I was

> thinking

> > that what I had was the aftereffects of TSS but, as Elaine

> suggested,

> > the problem might be partly thyroid. I had three and a half

months

> > of diarrhea from the antibiotics and it may have interferred with

> the

> > absorption of nutrients as well as the synthroid.

> >

> > Got a new endo because the old one didn't have an office staff

who

> > could refill a script even. The new one is actually a nurse

> > practioner. Lent her my copy of labs (she didn't believe the TSH

> of

> > 69!) so I don't have the ability to look back and see old stuff

> just

> > now. I wrote down the latest stuff (sept.) and everything was

> within

> > normal limits. The free T4 was at the very uppermost end of

normal

> > however. I have had positive antibodies as well as a positive

> ANA.

> > Rhumatologist didn't do a thing about either and the antibodies

> have

> > not been repeated for at least a year, more like 18 mos.

> >

> > I have been seeing a chiropractor (bless her heart she is the

> best!)

> > every week for several months and have just over a month of

seeing

> an

> > acupuncturist twice a week. He is the greatest! I think that the

> > interventions, plus the nutritionist (what a lot of supplements!)

> is

> > helping the autoimmunity. The endo (NP) dropped the synthroid

> to .1

> > and wants to wait for eight weeks to run the autoimmunity panel.

> >

> > Does this make sense? I'm thinking that even though the labs seem

> > normal there is something nasty going on at a cellular level.

And

> > the inability to absorb anything for all those weeks might have

> > wrecked havoc. As the accupuncture makes things better on the

> > cellular level the symptoms become clearer.

> > Secondly...........I have noticed that a great deal of the pain

> which

> > was inflicted on different body parts during the TSS episode now

> > seems to be mostly muscular. Well a lot of it is. Can this be

FMS

> > again from being hypo? And maybe this is why I'm freezing to

death

> > under several blankets? I'm also exhausted, have palpitations

and

> > ectopics every evening until I go to bed. Also still have the

> coated

> > tongue, and the eye burning. But both eyes are less buggy and

the

> > bad one, even though it feels crappy seems to have less lid lag.

> >

> > My apologies to all of you who have explained this so often and

so

> > carefully. Its beginning to make some sense but I've been really

> > dense for some time.

> >

> > Finally.........there is a fantastic article in November's

> Scientific

> > American (should be online for all of you elswhere than the

States

> by

> > next month). The article deals with the work being done on

> dendritic

> > cells and its possible consequences for diseases of autoimmunity

> (and

> > other stuff)

> >

> > The lab slip reads " throid AB (ATA,TPO) " and " T4, free direct

> > dialysis " Is there anything else that I should ask for? I know

> that

> > I should know this stuff by now and I apologize for being wimpy

but

> I

> > really want to get this right this time.

> >

> > Thanks to you all,

> > Laurel

[Guest guest]

Dear and Simon,

Thanks for your very quick responses! I would be very interested in the gut

flora link. I suspect that may be the key to what is going on here. Its been

over five months and I don't have the energy to even do the grocery shopping.

(not that I'm all that fond of that activity anyway!) I am progressing but so

very slowly that I feel I need to think that there is an explanation even if it

is complicated. While I'm not young, I'm not that old either!

I have been using " Suprema Dophilus " which has seven (yup count 'em seven) kinds

of bacteria including acidophilus. Tried the live yogurt during the active

diarrhea phase but just couldn't manage to actually eat much of it. Rather like

the whey powder. Disgusting stuff!

I know that there are hyper and hypo symptoms that can happen together. I'm

wondering if that isn't due to extracellular as well as intracellular effects?

I do have cytomel from about a year ago. I'm very tempted to try it again and

see if it makes a difference. I know that's bad isn't it? But what says

makes sense. I'm just not sure I want to wait until December to feel better if

that is the answer.

On the other hand impatience may be what got me here in the first place. Crap!

I'm so tired of being impatient!

Thanks again guys,

Laurel

Re: This sound right?

Also, balancing the gut flora can help cut down on antibody

production. It's a long explanation, but I can find a link to

explain this action better than I can.

Will post it tomorrow if you like -

Chris

> > Hey All you smart and informed people.

> >

> > I just need to touch base to see if you all think I'm maybe,

> finally

> > on the right track. RAI twice (stupid, stupid, stupid) and then

> was

> > given toxic shock last may with a steroid injection. I was

> thinking

> > that what I had was the aftereffects of TSS but, as Elaine

> suggested,

> > the problem might be partly thyroid. I had three and a half

months

> > of diarrhea from the antibiotics and it may have interferred with

> the

> > absorption of nutrients as well as the synthroid.

> >

> > Got a new endo because the old one didn't have an office staff

who

> > could refill a script even. The new one is actually a nurse

> > practioner. Lent her my copy of labs (she didn't believe the TSH

> of

> > 69!) so I don't have the ability to look back and see old stuff

> just

> > now. I wrote down the latest stuff (sept.) and everything was

> within

> > normal limits. The free T4 was at the very uppermost end of

normal

> > however. I have had positive antibodies as well as a positive

> ANA.

> > Rhumatologist didn't do a thing about either and the antibodies

> have

> > not been repeated for at least a year, more like 18 mos.

> >

> > I have been seeing a chiropractor (bless her heart she is the

> best!)

> > every week for several months and have just over a month of

seeing

> an

> > acupuncturist twice a week. He is the greatest! I think that the

> > interventions, plus the nutritionist (what a lot of supplements!)

> is

> > helping the autoimmunity. The endo (NP) dropped the synthroid

> to .1

> > and wants to wait for eight weeks to run the autoimmunity panel.

> >

> > Does this make sense? I'm thinking that even though the labs seem

> > normal there is something nasty going on at a cellular level.

And

> > the inability to absorb anything for all those weeks might have

> > wrecked havoc. As the accupuncture makes things better on the

> > cellular level the symptoms become clearer.

> > Secondly...........I have noticed that a great deal of the pain

> which

> > was inflicted on different body parts during the TSS episode now

> > seems to be mostly muscular. Well a lot of it is. Can this be

FMS

> > again from being hypo? And maybe this is why I'm freezing to

death

> > under several blankets? I'm also exhausted, have palpitations

and

> > ectopics every evening until I go to bed. Also still have the

> coated

> > tongue, and the eye burning. But both eyes are less buggy and

the

> > bad one, even though it feels crappy seems to have less lid lag.

> >

> > My apologies to all of you who have explained this so often and

so

> > carefully. Its beginning to make some sense but I've been really

> > dense for some time.

> >

> > Finally.........there is a fantastic article in November's

> Scientific

> > American (should be online for all of you elswhere than the

States

> by

> > next month). The article deals with the work being done on

> dendritic

> > cells and its possible consequences for diseases of autoimmunity

> (and

> > other stuff)

> >

> > The lab slip reads " throid AB (ATA,TPO) " and " T4, free direct

> > dialysis " Is there anything else that I should ask for? I know

> that

> > I should know this stuff by now and I apologize for being wimpy

but

> I

> > really want to get this right this time.

> >

> > Thanks to you all,

> > Laurel

-------------------------------------

The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended

to replace expert medical care.

Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

----------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER

Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

------

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel --

Just wanted to mention that what Simon said is right - freezing is a

pretty sure sign of hypO, and lowering the meds might not be such a

good idea.

I'm amazed that you have to wait so long to get some help. This

seems to be a trend--just let the patient flounder around until we

can get around to helping them? Doctors are really getting cold-

hearted these days!

This link is to a great explanation of faulty digestion and candida.

You could search Google.com for " candida " and " leaky gut syndrome "

and get more links. I'm not endorsing the website or anything, but

was impressed with the information on this problem. Scroll down

to " Introduction. "

http://www.sheilas.com/newsletters/candida.html

Here is an excerpt:

Quote:

People may have symptoms that appear totally unrelated to the candida

such as irritable bowel syndrome, inflammatory bowel disease, vaginal

yeast infections, headaches with sinus involvement, histamine

allergic reactions and thrush white tongue, to name a few. Remember,

the mouth is the beginning of the GI tract and culinary sugars begin

their work immediately on the teeth, gums and tissues through

interaction with fungi. Sugar activates candida metabolism and some

of its by-products are neurotoxins such as formaldehyde, alcohol and

acetlyaldehyde. One's nervous system can become deranged during

candida due to specific neurotoxins. Autism is one example of this.

Remember that half or more of intestinal tissue is immune tissue and

what you do to the walls of your intestines you are doing directly to

your 'immune' system. Also, the immune system might respond to

candida by-products and food molecules in the bloodstream by

secreting histamines with the classic symptoms of allergies and

intolerances. End Quote.

The problem with some acidophilus products is keeping the " critters "

alive. Most brands need to be refrigerated at all times from the

manufacturer to the store and on to your own fridge. I use

Kyodophilus because it can be stored at room temp until you open the

jar. I DO notice a difference when I take it. I didn't trust some

of the other brands to be refrigerated at all times.

You will know when you're taking it too often...... I wasn't able to

take it every day because it seemed to loosen things up too much, if

ya know what I mean..........

This link has a good explanation about how just throwing more T4 at a

hypothyroid patient can backfire and cause even MORE hypothyroidism:

http://www.efn.org/~raypeat/horm.html

Then scroll down to: Thyroid - Therapies, Confusion and Fraud

Here's an excerpt:

Quote: The serum's high ratio of T4 to T3 is a pitifully poor

argument to justify the use of thyroxine instead of a product that

resembles the proportion of these substances secreted by a healthy

thyroid gland, or maintained inside cells.

About 30 years ago, when many people still thought of thyroxine as

" the thryoid hormone, " someone was making the argument that " the

thyroid hormone " must work exclusively as an activator of genes,

since most of the organ slices he tested didn't increase their oxygen

consumption when it was added. In fact, the addition of thyroxine to

brain slices suppressed their respiration by 6% during the

experiment. Since most T3 is produced from T4

in the liver, not in the brain, I think that experiment had great

significance, despite the ignorant interpretation of the author.

>>>>>> An excess of thyroxine, in a tissue that doesn't convert it

rapidly to T3, has an antithyroid action. (See Goumaz, et al,

1987.) This happens in many women who are given thyroxine; as their

dose is increased, their symptoms get worse. End Quote.

I wish I knew more about the intracellular and extracellular

subject. That sounds interesting.

I'd be careful about the cytomel you have from a year ago. For one

thing, check the expiration date. For another, you shouldn't try

adding it on your own, especially without some kind of testing for

the T3. Elaine has a good explanation about Total T3, and Free T3,

and Reverse T3. You might want to study that. It was in a post from

yesterday, to I think.

Don't just start taking T3 without knowing what is going on with your

levels. I understand it is tricky getting just the right dose, and

the timing of those doses. Jody, , and Elaine (and maybe others

as well) know a lot about this.

Why do you have to wait until December? Can't you find an internest

or GP who will run the proper testing, and then you can go from there?

I'm finding that the hyper and hypo symptoms that go together are

usually due to either a high T3 and low T4, or high T4 and low T3. I

know how you feel about the grocery shopping. The rising prices are

enough to make me tired--sick and tired!

Best Wishes,

Chris

-------------

Diagnosed with Graves' May 1979

On tapazole since May 1979

Age 53 - menopause at 46

Currently on 7.5 mg/da Tap, 30 mg/da inderal

Latest testing:

8/6/02 -- FT4 - 0.99 (0.71 - 1.85), FT3 - 4.4 (2.2 - 4.0)

9/9/02 -- FT4 - 1.1 (0.7 - 2.2 ), FT3 - 5.4 (1.5 - 4.1)

9/30/02 -- FT4 - 1.3 (0.7 - 2.2), FT3 - 4.7 (1.5 - 4.1)

> > > Hey All you smart and informed people.

> > >

> > > I just need to touch base to see if you all think I'm maybe,

> > finally

> > > on the right track. RAI twice (stupid, stupid, stupid) and

then

> > was

> > > given toxic shock last may with a steroid injection. I was

> > thinking

> > > that what I had was the aftereffects of TSS but, as Elaine

> > suggested,

> > > the problem might be partly thyroid. I had three and a half

> months

> > > of diarrhea from the antibiotics and it may have interferred

with

> > the

> > > absorption of nutrients as well as the synthroid.

> > >

> > > Got a new endo because the old one didn't have an office staff

> who

> > > could refill a script even. The new one is actually a nurse

> > > practioner. Lent her my copy of labs (she didn't believe the

TSH

> > of

> > > 69!) so I don't have the ability to look back and see old

stuff

> > just

> > > now. I wrote down the latest stuff (sept.) and everything was

> > within

> > > normal limits. The free T4 was at the very uppermost end of

> normal

> > > however. I have had positive antibodies as well as a positive

> > ANA.

> > > Rhumatologist didn't do a thing about either and the

antibodies

> > have

> > > not been repeated for at least a year, more like 18 mos.

> > >

> > > I have been seeing a chiropractor (bless her heart she is the

> > best!)

> > > every week for several months and have just over a month of

> seeing

> > an

> > > acupuncturist twice a week. He is the greatest! I think that

the

> > > interventions, plus the nutritionist (what a lot of

supplements!)

> > is

> > > helping the autoimmunity. The endo (NP) dropped the synthroid

> > to .1

> > > and wants to wait for eight weeks to run the autoimmunity

panel.

> > >

> > > Does this make sense? I'm thinking that even though the labs

seem

> > > normal there is something nasty going on at a cellular level.

> And

> > > the inability to absorb anything for all those weeks might

have

> > > wrecked havoc. As the accupuncture makes things better on the

> > > cellular level the symptoms become clearer.

> > > Secondly...........I have noticed that a great deal of the

pain

> > which

> > > was inflicted on different body parts during the TSS episode

now

> > > seems to be mostly muscular. Well a lot of it is. Can this

be

> FMS

> > > again from being hypo? And maybe this is why I'm freezing to

> death

> > > under several blankets? I'm also exhausted, have palpitations

> and

> > > ectopics every evening until I go to bed. Also still have the

> > coated

> > > tongue, and the eye burning. But both eyes are less buggy and

> the

> > > bad one, even though it feels crappy seems to have less lid

lag.

> > >

> > > My apologies to all of you who have explained this so often

and

> so

> > > carefully. Its beginning to make some sense but I've been

really

> > > dense for some time.

> > >

> > > Finally.........there is a fantastic article in November's

> > Scientific

> > > American (should be online for all of you elswhere than the

> States

> > by

> > > next month). The article deals with the work being done on

> > dendritic

> > > cells and its possible consequences for diseases of

autoimmunity

> > (and

> > > other stuff)

> > >

> > > The lab slip reads " throid AB (ATA,TPO) " and " T4, free direct

> > > dialysis " Is there anything else that I should ask for? I

know

> > that

> > > I should know this stuff by now and I apologize for being

wimpy

> but

> > I

> > > really want to get this right this time.

> > >

> > > Thanks to you all,

> > > Laurel

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is

not intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the

endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to

emails.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I printed out hard copies of both articles. I need to take the time to read

them carefully. It looks like the latter may be very helpful. Thanks so much.

The intercellular vs. extracellular is just a guess on my part. I don't have

anything to back it up. It just seems that stuff at a higher concentration that

one would expect outside the areas in which one might expect it, would wreck

havoc. So if we have levels that are just floating around, they might be

deleterious as well as indicate a problem.

I'm thinking, for example, how an elevated serum potassium can be deadly. I

guess I want a bottom up approach to all this because that is how I tend to

think. So what is the difference between how an electrolyte works and how a

hormone works? Well, heck a whole lot of difference! But since stuff like an

elevated serum cholesterol can really mess a person up, I can't help wondering

what a large number T4 might do besides indicate lack of conversion.

Then the brain fog takes over and I lose it. It would be so easy to just go

upstairs and eat one of those cytomel and see what happens. But I won't.

Really. (Crap!)

I don't know why the delay. I think it was because the endo was new and she

needed time to review the records. Why it takes eight weeks? Anybody's guess.

Thanks again for your help. I'll let you know if I find anything on the pure

speculation.

Laurel

Re: This sound right?

Hi Laurel --

Just wanted to mention that what Simon said is right - freezing is a

pretty sure sign of hypO, and lowering the meds might not be such a

good idea.

I'm amazed that you have to wait so long to get some help. This

seems to be a trend--just let the patient flounder around until we

can get around to helping them? Doctors are really getting cold-

hearted these days!

This link is to a great explanation of faulty digestion and candida.

You could search Google.com for " candida " and " leaky gut syndrome "

and get more links. I'm not endorsing the website or anything, but

was impressed with the information on this problem. Scroll down

to " Introduction. "

http://www.sheilas.com/newsletters/candida.html

Here is an excerpt:

Quote:

People may have symptoms that appear totally unrelated to the candida

such as irritable bowel syndrome, inflammatory bowel disease, vaginal

yeast infections, headaches with sinus involvement, histamine

allergic reactions and thrush white tongue, to name a few. Remember,

the mouth is the beginning of the GI tract and culinary sugars begin

their work immediately on the teeth, gums and tissues through

interaction with fungi. Sugar activates candida metabolism and some

of its by-products are neurotoxins such as formaldehyde, alcohol and

acetlyaldehyde. One's nervous system can become deranged during

candida due to specific neurotoxins. Autism is one example of this.

Remember that half or more of intestinal tissue is immune tissue and

what you do to the walls of your intestines you are doing directly to

your 'immune' system. Also, the immune system might respond to

candida by-products and food molecules in the bloodstream by

secreting histamines with the classic symptoms of allergies and

intolerances. End Quote.

The problem with some acidophilus products is keeping the " critters "

alive. Most brands need to be refrigerated at all times from the

manufacturer to the store and on to your own fridge. I use

Kyodophilus because it can be stored at room temp until you open the

jar. I DO notice a difference when I take it. I didn't trust some

of the other brands to be refrigerated at all times.

You will know when you're taking it too often...... I wasn't able to

take it every day because it seemed to loosen things up too much, if

ya know what I mean..........

This link has a good explanation about how just throwing more T4 at a

hypothyroid patient can backfire and cause even MORE hypothyroidism:

http://www.efn.org/~raypeat/horm.html

Then scroll down to: Thyroid - Therapies, Confusion and Fraud

Here's an excerpt:

Quote: The serum's high ratio of T4 to T3 is a pitifully poor

argument to justify the use of thyroxine instead of a product that

resembles the proportion of these substances secreted by a healthy

thyroid gland, or maintained inside cells.

About 30 years ago, when many people still thought of thyroxine as

" the thryoid hormone, " someone was making the argument that " the

thyroid hormone " must work exclusively as an activator of genes,

since most of the organ slices he tested didn't increase their oxygen

consumption when it was added. In fact, the addition of thyroxine to

brain slices suppressed their respiration by 6% during the

experiment. Since most T3 is produced from T4

in the liver, not in the brain, I think that experiment had great

significance, despite the ignorant interpretation of the author.

>>>>>> An excess of thyroxine, in a tissue that doesn't convert it

rapidly to T3, has an antithyroid action. (See Goumaz, et al,

1987.) This happens in many women who are given thyroxine; as their

dose is increased, their symptoms get worse. End Quote.

I wish I knew more about the intracellular and extracellular

subject. That sounds interesting.

I'd be careful about the cytomel you have from a year ago. For one

thing, check the expiration date. For another, you shouldn't try

adding it on your own, especially without some kind of testing for

the T3. Elaine has a good explanation about Total T3, and Free T3,

and Reverse T3. You might want to study that. It was in a post from

yesterday, to I think.

Don't just start taking T3 without knowing what is going on with your

levels. I understand it is tricky getting just the right dose, and

the timing of those doses. Jody, , and Elaine (and maybe others

as well) know a lot about this.

Why do you have to wait until December? Can't you find an internest

or GP who will run the proper testing, and then you can go from there?

I'm finding that the hyper and hypo symptoms that go together are

usually due to either a high T3 and low T4, or high T4 and low T3. I

know how you feel about the grocery shopping. The rising prices are

enough to make me tired--sick and tired!

Best Wishes,

Chris

-------------

Diagnosed with Graves' May 1979

On tapazole since May 1979

Age 53 - menopause at 46

Currently on 7.5 mg/da Tap, 30 mg/da inderal

Latest testing:

8/6/02 -- FT4 - 0.99 (0.71 - 1.85), FT3 - 4.4 (2.2 - 4.0)

9/9/02 -- FT4 - 1.1 (0.7 - 2.2 ), FT3 - 5.4 (1.5 - 4.1)

9/30/02 -- FT4 - 1.3 (0.7 - 2.2), FT3 - 4.7 (1.5 - 4.1)

> > > Hey All you smart and informed people.

> > >

> > > I just need to touch base to see if you all think I'm maybe,

> > finally

> > > on the right track. RAI twice (stupid, stupid, stupid) and

then

> > was

> > > given toxic shock last may with a steroid injection. I was

> > thinking

> > > that what I had was the aftereffects of TSS but, as Elaine

> > suggested,

> > > the problem might be partly thyroid. I had three and a half

> months

> > > of diarrhea from the antibiotics and it may have interferred

with

> > the

> > > absorption of nutrients as well as the synthroid.

> > >

> > > Got a new endo because the old one didn't have an office staff

> who

> > > could refill a script even. The new one is actually a nurse

> > > practioner. Lent her my copy of labs (she didn't believe the

TSH

> > of

> > > 69!) so I don't have the ability to look back and see old

stuff

> > just

> > > now. I wrote down the latest stuff (sept.) and everything was

> > within

> > > normal limits. The free T4 was at the very uppermost end of

> normal

> > > however. I have had positive antibodies as well as a positive

> > ANA.

> > > Rhumatologist didn't do a thing about either and the

antibodies

> > have

> > > not been repeated for at least a year, more like 18 mos.

> > >

> > > I have been seeing a chiropractor (bless her heart she is the

> > best!)

> > > every week for several months and have just over a month of

> seeing

> > an

> > > acupuncturist twice a week. He is the greatest! I think that

the

> > > interventions, plus the nutritionist (what a lot of

supplements!)

> > is

> > > helping the autoimmunity. The endo (NP) dropped the synthroid

> > to .1

> > > and wants to wait for eight weeks to run the autoimmunity

panel.

> > >

> > > Does this make sense? I'm thinking that even though the labs

seem

> > > normal there is something nasty going on at a cellular level.

> And

> > > the inability to absorb anything for all those weeks might

have

> > > wrecked havoc. As the accupuncture makes things better on the

> > > cellular level the symptoms become clearer.

> > > Secondly...........I have noticed that a great deal of the

pain

> > which

> > > was inflicted on different body parts during the TSS episode

now

> > > seems to be mostly muscular. Well a lot of it is. Can this

be

> FMS

> > > again from being hypo? And maybe this is why I'm freezing to

> death

> > > under several blankets? I'm also exhausted, have palpitations

> and

> > > ectopics every evening until I go to bed. Also still have the

> > coated

> > > tongue, and the eye burning. But both eyes are less buggy and

> the

> > > bad one, even though it feels crappy seems to have less lid

lag.

> > >

> > > My apologies to all of you who have explained this so often

and

> so

> > > carefully. Its beginning to make some sense but I've been

really

> > > dense for some time.

> > >

> > > Finally.........there is a fantastic article in November's

> > Scientific

> > > American (should be online for all of you elswhere than the

> States

> > by

> > > next month). The article deals with the work being done on

> > dendritic

> > > cells and its possible consequences for diseases of

autoimmunity

> > (and

> > > other stuff)

> > >

> > > The lab slip reads " throid AB (ATA,TPO) " and " T4, free direct

> > > dialysis " Is there anything else that I should ask for? I

know

> > that

> > > I should know this stuff by now and I apologize for being

wimpy

> but

> > I

> > > really want to get this right this time.

> > >

> > > Thanks to you all,

> > > Laurel

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is

not intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the

endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to

emails.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel,

I hope you know the T3 meds have a very short shelf life. I even read where

some are told to keep them in the frig, and DRY.

I did have a white tongue problem, and guess it might help if I tell you the

story.

As I became more and more hypo, my tongue got white..them really white, with

long white seaweed looking stuff...then it got a huge red crack down the

middle...then it started burning 24 / 7 , like the whole thing was burnt or

had been dipped in acid.

Dentist said it was not thrush, but caused by dry mouth. Hummm ? Dry mouth

is caused by hypo.

I learned that burning tongue syndrome is caused by medications and mostly

anxiety.

Hummm? Hypo is anxiety for me.

Hypo for me also causes increased BP, which makes me more anxious.

Now we move straight to the end of the story.

Started thyroid replacement hormones and BP meds the same day. At once...the

burning was reduced by 75%. The BP meds immediately reduced the high

anxiety. Hummm?

Over time, as the replacement hormones worked the white tongue went away.

My mouth was so dry from the hypo, I didn't notice right at first, but

everyone said I talked funny. As it got worse I could hear it too.

Sounded a bit like a speech impediment.

The fix for dry mouth is, supposedly, drinking more water all the time. The

dry mouth causes the tongue to not slough off as it normally does, thus the

white color, and then the really weird seaweed looking white color.

Sounds to me, like you ought to hop on down there Monday and get that FT3

test. No reason to let EVERYTHING get worse.

-Pam L-

[Guest guest]

Laurel,

I forgot to mention.

Dry mouth causes gum problems.

Gum problems cause bone loss and then tooth loss.

Go get that FT3 test.

-Pam L-

[Guest guest]

Pam,

Thanks. The dry mouth thing has been going on for years. The tongue coating

was initially diagnosed as thrush but did not respond to either the swish stuff

or to the addition of acidophilus. I began to think that it is the typical

strawberry tongue that is reported with toxic shock. My tongue has now shed

completely four times and continues to have this yukky greyish stuff that can be

scraped off. (sorry, its really that gross!)

My adorable acupuncturist says that its " an excess of heat. " I suppose that

might be hyperthyroid but then there are those hypo symptoms too! Gosh I wish

this were easier to figure out. I know that the last T3 was " within normal

limits " and the FT4 was at the upper limits of normal. I just don't know what

goes with what and what it all means. If I had to guess I'd bet that TSS and,

especially DIC really messes with cellular metabolism and then the addition of

very toxic antibiotics, designed to screw up bacterial cellular function, has to

have a very serious effect on human cells. But nobody in the medical community

seems to have a clue, much less care, what those effects are.

It always comes down to this: If you don't die they don't care.

I'll call on Monday and ask if I can have my lab work done early. If the

results are basically the same do you think that trying T3 would make a

difference? My third endo (the one with the terrible office staff) was very

annoyed that I was getting information from the internet (yup you guys!) and

very reluctantly gave me the cytomel. I could tell he didn't believe it and

took me off it at the first chance he had, with a great deal of annoyance in his

manner.

I really appreciate your help!

Laurel

Re: This sound right?

Laurel,

I forgot to mention.

Dry mouth causes gum problems.

Gum problems cause bone loss and then tooth loss.

Go get that FT3 test.

-Pam L-

-------------------------------------

The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended

to replace expert medical care.

Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

----------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER

Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

------

[Guest guest]

Pam!

I just read this! Read and answered the other first. My email program sorts

everything backwards!

What you describe, minus the whiteness, cause mine scrapes off grey to black (I

swear! totally gross!) is exactly what is going on. So why, in the name of all

that is holy, has nobody in the medical community been able to figure it out?

Are they really that dense?

So hypo explains a whole lot. The blood work will not support that but there it

is. Listen to the patient not the lab.

Its very possible that the last four months have been what Jody calls hypo hell.

The only thing that keeps me from feeling like a total idiot is that nobody in

the army of doctors I have been seeing could make that simple connection.

Thanks so much.

Laurel

Re: Re: This sound right?

Hi Laurel,

I hope you know the T3 meds have a very short shelf life. I even read where

some are told to keep them in the frig, and DRY.

I did have a white tongue problem, and guess it might help if I tell you the

story.

As I became more and more hypo, my tongue got white..them really white, with

long white seaweed looking stuff...then it got a huge red crack down the

middle...then it started burning 24 / 7 , like the whole thing was burnt or

had been dipped in acid.

Dentist said it was not thrush, but caused by dry mouth. Hummm ? Dry mouth

is caused by hypo.

I learned that burning tongue syndrome is caused by medications and mostly

anxiety.

Hummm? Hypo is anxiety for me.

Hypo for me also causes increased BP, which makes me more anxious.

Now we move straight to the end of the story.

Started thyroid replacement hormones and BP meds the same day. At once...the

burning was reduced by 75%. The BP meds immediately reduced the high

anxiety. Hummm?

Over time, as the replacement hormones worked the white tongue went away.

My mouth was so dry from the hypo, I didn't notice right at first, but

everyone said I talked funny. As it got worse I could hear it too.

Sounded a bit like a speech impediment.

The fix for dry mouth is, supposedly, drinking more water all the time. The

dry mouth causes the tongue to not slough off as it normally does, thus the

white color, and then the really weird seaweed looking white color.

Sounds to me, like you ought to hop on down there Monday and get that FT3

test. No reason to let EVERYTHING get worse.

-Pam L-

-------------------------------------

The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended

to replace expert medical care.

Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

----------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER

Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

------

[Guest guest]

I can't believe you said that !

*** " within normal limits " *** LOL :-)

You can't gross me out with dry tongue stuff. Gray ...yep, saw that .Yes, it

was really UCKY ! It was that last month when it burned so bad , 'Ensure'

and 'Slim Fast' were the only things I could eat, that got me down. Don't

wait that long. It is miserable. And it was all swollen up. When people

could no longer understand what I was saying, I was lowered to telling

everyone I saw my tongue was burning and that is why I couldn't talk.

Dang...bad enough they thought I was nuts...now they know. Seems no one has

ever heard of such a thing.

You said:

The dry mouth thing has been going on for years

By any chance does it match up with being hypo ?

The main thing I was worried about was you having one of those moments,

which we all have at times, and trying the Cytomel. I think you said it was

a year old ??? If so, with the short shelf life, there is no telling what it

has turned into.

As soon as you have new labs, and the right ones ( FT3- FT4- TSH ), I know

the experienced people here, that use the T3 will be able to help you.

I am better with the anti thyroid drugs, since I spent so much time on them.

But once you get hooked on this thyroid stuff, it turns out I have read and

absorbed just enough about hypo meds, to be 'dangerous'. :-)

My name is Pam, and I am a thyroid junkie .

-Pam L-

3 1/2 yr.Graves and TED, PTU, Remission due to education, SLOW reduction of

PTU, improved lifestyle, excellent nutrition,herbs, and looking at the BIG

picture !

Pills alone only fix symptoms. We must help our bodies to heal.

[Guest guest]

YES !

The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria than the

white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or black goes

away.

So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been when that next

one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on the two new

meds.

Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one, that now as I

tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to believe me,

but since they do not consult, they have only people like me telling them.

And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman , talking with a

lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

-Pam L -

[Guest guest]

Hi all -

I just got in and can't catch up tonite - will try

tomorrow. Was researching this tongue thing and none

of the info gives anything as to how to clear it up.

This is obviously a mystery to the medical profession

also.

I'm giving you some links I found at USC website.

WARNING!!!! DING DING DING!!!

These are TOTALLY GROSS pictures, so be careful.

But at least you can see some examples

of " hairy tongue " and " geographic tongue " - make the mouth

thrush I got a while back look like a walk in the park.

Will search tomorrow for any alternative ideas on treatment,

as it appears that the allopathic treatment is the

doc shrugging his shoulders and saying that it will

go away some day........ sheesh!

Also, it can be allergies.... And another thing to keep in

mind as I found it to be true: When hypO and your body temp

is below normal, it allows a better environment for the bad

" critters " - where if your temp is 98.6 degrees F, then it

is too hot for some of the bad guys. A natural defense.

I had more trouble getting my chronic leg ulcer to heal over when I

was hypO and my usual body temp was 96 or so. As I got my levels back

up, it finally cleared up. Just an idea.

Anyway -

Well, here goes! Pics of tongue problems:

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_07.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_04.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_01.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_03.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_02.html

What's for dinner?

Chris

---------

> YES !

>

> The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

>

> He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria

than the

> white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or black

goes

> away.

>

> So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been when

that next

> one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on the

two new

> meds.

>

> Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one, that

now as I

> tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to

believe me,

> but since they do not consult, they have only people like me

telling them.

> And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman , talking

with a

> lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

>

> -Pam L -

[Guest guest]

Laurie, before dry mouth will cause gum problems, it will cause many, many

caries (cavities, decay), People with dry mouth can have uncontrollable

cavities. Which does bring me to another point, a few posts back, someone had

mentioned mercury poisoning from dental fillings, where I think the jury is

still out on that, and wouldn't go and get all my fillings changed right now ,

Future fillings are done in the white composite because it has only been in the

last 10 years that there has even been a alternative to amalgam fillings . Also

before I would change fillings, If I was chemically sensitive, I would look

under my sink to see what chemicals I clean with every day. I use a fabulous

product called Botanical Gold that replaces every product, you can even brush

your teeth with it, do your laundry, clean your toilet, wash your hair. If any

of you want to find this product, let me know and I will give you the web site,

I don't want to push a product, But all of us, especially with autoimmune

disorders need to really look at the chemicals we touch every day.

Jen

Re: This sound right?

Laurel,

I forgot to mention.

Dry mouth causes gum problems.

Gum problems cause bone loss and then tooth loss.

Go get that FT3 test.

-Pam L-

[Guest guest]

Laurie, before dry mouth will cause gum problems, it will cause many, many

caries (cavities, decay), People with dry mouth can have uncontrollable

cavities. Which does bring me to another point, a few posts back, someone had

mentioned mercury poisoning from dental fillings, where I think the jury is

still out on that, and wouldn't go and get all my fillings changed right now ,

Future fillings are done in the white composite because it has only been in the

last 10 years that there has even been a alternative to amalgam fillings . Also

before I would change fillings, If I was chemically sensitive, I would look

under my sink to see what chemicals I clean with every day. I use a fabulous

product called Botanical Gold that replaces every product, you can even brush

your teeth with it, do your laundry, clean your toilet, wash your hair. If any

of you want to find this product, let me know and I will give you the web site,

I don't want to push a product, But all of us, especially with autoimmune

disorders need to really look at the chemicals we touch every day.

Jen

Re: This sound right?

Laurel,

I forgot to mention.

Dry mouth causes gum problems.

Gum problems cause bone loss and then tooth loss.

Go get that FT3 test.

-Pam L-

[Guest guest]

Laurie, before dry mouth will cause gum problems, it will cause many, many

caries (cavities, decay), People with dry mouth can have uncontrollable

cavities. Which does bring me to another point, a few posts back, someone had

mentioned mercury poisoning from dental fillings, where I think the jury is

still out on that, and wouldn't go and get all my fillings changed right now ,

Future fillings are done in the white composite because it has only been in the

last 10 years that there has even been a alternative to amalgam fillings . Also

before I would change fillings, If I was chemically sensitive, I would look

under my sink to see what chemicals I clean with every day. I use a fabulous

product called Botanical Gold that replaces every product, you can even brush

your teeth with it, do your laundry, clean your toilet, wash your hair. If any

of you want to find this product, let me know and I will give you the web site,

I don't want to push a product, But all of us, especially with autoimmune

disorders need to really look at the chemicals we touch every day.

Jen

Re: This sound right?

Laurel,

I forgot to mention.

Dry mouth causes gum problems.

Gum problems cause bone loss and then tooth loss.

Go get that FT3 test.

-Pam L-

[Guest guest]

Hey

Ok. In spite of the warning I was sitting in front of the computer with my

detox tea and the whole grain bread with almond butter (because peanut butter is

now forbidden because of the possible mold stuff in it). I'm still drinking the

tea.

Mine looks like geographic but with the greyish furry stuff around the

periphery. What you include makes perfect sense. I had been running nightly

low grade fevers and repeating them sometimes in the morning (99-100) I'm going

to guess (and a guess it is) this may be tissue inflammation from the

destruction first by the staph and then by the antibiotics. Of course when I

don't have the fever I run 97 or less, which is probably hypo, because I can't

absorb the replacement hormone. The good bugs are not just depleted. They were

most likely as gone as a human can have. (Vancomycin is horrid no matter how

enamored the docs are!) Add the diarrhea which went on forever and still

returns once in a while, and the whole system is a mess.

Of course they shrug but my docs don't ever get to the part about it going away

some day. They just look nervous and ask if I want Prozac or Paxil or

something.

So, if I have this right, getting over this involves correcting the hypo which

is going to be difficult because of the autoimmune problem and the fact that

eight weeks of IV antibiotics have destroyed essential parts of my intestines.

So I'm not going to be able to tell if the pain that keeps me from walking very

far is due to the FMS from hypo or if its from the damage that was inflicted

with an infected injection.

And, pardon me if I sound like a radical, but all this is a result of years of

misdiagnosis and the fact that I believed a doctor (in an area with a high

incidence of thyroid problems) when he told me (here it comes again, wait for

it!) I'd die without RAI. TWICE.

What I want is a life that doesn't revolve around Graves or TSS! Now that I

think about it isn't that what all of us on this list want?

Thanks really for the links. Its the only explanation I've gotten except of

course, for the " excessive body heat " from my acupuncturist.

Oh and next time I'll believe you when you start ringing!

Laurel

Re: This sound right?

Hi all -

I just got in and can't catch up tonite - will try

tomorrow. Was researching this tongue thing and none

of the info gives anything as to how to clear it up.

This is obviously a mystery to the medical profession

also.

I'm giving you some links I found at USC website.

WARNING!!!! DING DING DING!!!

These are TOTALLY GROSS pictures, so be careful.

But at least you can see some examples

of " hairy tongue " and " geographic tongue " - make the mouth

thrush I got a while back look like a walk in the park.

Will search tomorrow for any alternative ideas on treatment,

as it appears that the allopathic treatment is the

doc shrugging his shoulders and saying that it will

go away some day........ sheesh!

Also, it can be allergies.... And another thing to keep in

mind as I found it to be true: When hypO and your body temp

is below normal, it allows a better environment for the bad

" critters " - where if your temp is 98.6 degrees F, then it

is too hot for some of the bad guys. A natural defense.

I had more trouble getting my chronic leg ulcer to heal over when I

was hypO and my usual body temp was 96 or so. As I got my levels back

up, it finally cleared up. Just an idea.

Anyway -

Well, here goes! Pics of tongue problems:

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_07.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_04.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_01.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_03.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_02.html

What's for dinner?

Chris

---------

> YES !

>

> The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

>

> He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria

than the

> white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or black

goes

> away.

>

> So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been when

that next

> one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on the

two new

> meds.

>

> Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one, that

now as I

> tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to

believe me,

> but since they do not consult, they have only people like me

telling them.

> And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman , talking

with a

> lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

>

> -Pam L -

-------------------------------------

The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended

to replace expert medical care.

Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

----------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER

Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

------

[Guest guest]

Hey

Ok. In spite of the warning I was sitting in front of the computer with my

detox tea and the whole grain bread with almond butter (because peanut butter is

now forbidden because of the possible mold stuff in it). I'm still drinking the

tea.

Mine looks like geographic but with the greyish furry stuff around the

periphery. What you include makes perfect sense. I had been running nightly

low grade fevers and repeating them sometimes in the morning (99-100) I'm going

to guess (and a guess it is) this may be tissue inflammation from the

destruction first by the staph and then by the antibiotics. Of course when I

don't have the fever I run 97 or less, which is probably hypo, because I can't

absorb the replacement hormone. The good bugs are not just depleted. They were

most likely as gone as a human can have. (Vancomycin is horrid no matter how

enamored the docs are!) Add the diarrhea which went on forever and still

returns once in a while, and the whole system is a mess.

Of course they shrug but my docs don't ever get to the part about it going away

some day. They just look nervous and ask if I want Prozac or Paxil or

something.

So, if I have this right, getting over this involves correcting the hypo which

is going to be difficult because of the autoimmune problem and the fact that

eight weeks of IV antibiotics have destroyed essential parts of my intestines.

So I'm not going to be able to tell if the pain that keeps me from walking very

far is due to the FMS from hypo or if its from the damage that was inflicted

with an infected injection.

And, pardon me if I sound like a radical, but all this is a result of years of

misdiagnosis and the fact that I believed a doctor (in an area with a high

incidence of thyroid problems) when he told me (here it comes again, wait for

it!) I'd die without RAI. TWICE.

What I want is a life that doesn't revolve around Graves or TSS! Now that I

think about it isn't that what all of us on this list want?

Thanks really for the links. Its the only explanation I've gotten except of

course, for the " excessive body heat " from my acupuncturist.

Oh and next time I'll believe you when you start ringing!

Laurel

Re: This sound right?

Hi all -

I just got in and can't catch up tonite - will try

tomorrow. Was researching this tongue thing and none

of the info gives anything as to how to clear it up.

This is obviously a mystery to the medical profession

also.

I'm giving you some links I found at USC website.

WARNING!!!! DING DING DING!!!

These are TOTALLY GROSS pictures, so be careful.

But at least you can see some examples

of " hairy tongue " and " geographic tongue " - make the mouth

thrush I got a while back look like a walk in the park.

Will search tomorrow for any alternative ideas on treatment,

as it appears that the allopathic treatment is the

doc shrugging his shoulders and saying that it will

go away some day........ sheesh!

Also, it can be allergies.... And another thing to keep in

mind as I found it to be true: When hypO and your body temp

is below normal, it allows a better environment for the bad

" critters " - where if your temp is 98.6 degrees F, then it

is too hot for some of the bad guys. A natural defense.

I had more trouble getting my chronic leg ulcer to heal over when I

was hypO and my usual body temp was 96 or so. As I got my levels back

up, it finally cleared up. Just an idea.

Anyway -

Well, here goes! Pics of tongue problems:

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_07.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_04.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_01.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_03.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_02.html

What's for dinner?

Chris

---------

> YES !

>

> The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

>

> He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria

than the

> white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or black

goes

> away.

>

> So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been when

that next

> one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on the

two new

> meds.

>

> Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one, that

now as I

> tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to

believe me,

> but since they do not consult, they have only people like me

telling them.

> And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman , talking

with a

> lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

>

> -Pam L -

-------------------------------------

The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended

to replace expert medical care.

Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

----------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER

Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

------

[Guest guest]

Hey

Ok. In spite of the warning I was sitting in front of the computer with my

detox tea and the whole grain bread with almond butter (because peanut butter is

now forbidden because of the possible mold stuff in it). I'm still drinking the

tea.

Mine looks like geographic but with the greyish furry stuff around the

periphery. What you include makes perfect sense. I had been running nightly

low grade fevers and repeating them sometimes in the morning (99-100) I'm going

to guess (and a guess it is) this may be tissue inflammation from the

destruction first by the staph and then by the antibiotics. Of course when I

don't have the fever I run 97 or less, which is probably hypo, because I can't

absorb the replacement hormone. The good bugs are not just depleted. They were

most likely as gone as a human can have. (Vancomycin is horrid no matter how

enamored the docs are!) Add the diarrhea which went on forever and still

returns once in a while, and the whole system is a mess.

Of course they shrug but my docs don't ever get to the part about it going away

some day. They just look nervous and ask if I want Prozac or Paxil or

something.

So, if I have this right, getting over this involves correcting the hypo which

is going to be difficult because of the autoimmune problem and the fact that

eight weeks of IV antibiotics have destroyed essential parts of my intestines.

So I'm not going to be able to tell if the pain that keeps me from walking very

far is due to the FMS from hypo or if its from the damage that was inflicted

with an infected injection.

And, pardon me if I sound like a radical, but all this is a result of years of

misdiagnosis and the fact that I believed a doctor (in an area with a high

incidence of thyroid problems) when he told me (here it comes again, wait for

it!) I'd die without RAI. TWICE.

What I want is a life that doesn't revolve around Graves or TSS! Now that I

think about it isn't that what all of us on this list want?

Thanks really for the links. Its the only explanation I've gotten except of

course, for the " excessive body heat " from my acupuncturist.

Oh and next time I'll believe you when you start ringing!

Laurel

Re: This sound right?

Hi all -

I just got in and can't catch up tonite - will try

tomorrow. Was researching this tongue thing and none

of the info gives anything as to how to clear it up.

This is obviously a mystery to the medical profession

also.

I'm giving you some links I found at USC website.

WARNING!!!! DING DING DING!!!

These are TOTALLY GROSS pictures, so be careful.

But at least you can see some examples

of " hairy tongue " and " geographic tongue " - make the mouth

thrush I got a while back look like a walk in the park.

Will search tomorrow for any alternative ideas on treatment,

as it appears that the allopathic treatment is the

doc shrugging his shoulders and saying that it will

go away some day........ sheesh!

Also, it can be allergies.... And another thing to keep in

mind as I found it to be true: When hypO and your body temp

is below normal, it allows a better environment for the bad

" critters " - where if your temp is 98.6 degrees F, then it

is too hot for some of the bad guys. A natural defense.

I had more trouble getting my chronic leg ulcer to heal over when I

was hypO and my usual body temp was 96 or so. As I got my levels back

up, it finally cleared up. Just an idea.

Anyway -

Well, here goes! Pics of tongue problems:

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_07.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_04.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_01.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_03.html

http://www.usc.edu/hsc/dental/PTHL501/KL/c_kl_02.html

What's for dinner?

Chris

---------

> YES !

>

> The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

>

> He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria

than the

> white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or black

goes

> away.

>

> So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been when

that next

> one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on the

two new

> meds.

>

> Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one, that

now as I

> tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to

believe me,

> but since they do not consult, they have only people like me

telling them.

> And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman , talking

with a

> lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

>

> -Pam L -

-------------------------------------

The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended

to replace expert medical care.

Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

----------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER

Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

------

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel,

I've been completely shocked at the agony you've been put through, and then

the shabby don't care attitude of the doctors. I'm hoping you find someone

that will do a decent job for you soon. Most of us have been to quite a few

before we find one worth going to, so I know what a hassle it is. Remember

it doesn't have to be an M.D.; my D.O. does a great job.

The New England Journal of Medicine (Volume 340:424-429 February 11, 1999)

published a study, " Effects of Thyroxine as Compared with Thyroxine plus

Triiodothyronine in Patients with Hypothyroidism " . The conclusion of the

study was that mood and neuropsychological function was improved by

supplementing with T4 plus T3. Based on that study alone, one would think

your doctor should be willing to prescribe T3.

NEJM articles are free 6 months after publication. Registration is required,

but it's free at www.nejm.org. If you want that article and have trouble

getting it, I can forward you a copy.

Good luck,

Bertta

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel,

I've been completely shocked at the agony you've been put through, and then

the shabby don't care attitude of the doctors. I'm hoping you find someone

that will do a decent job for you soon. Most of us have been to quite a few

before we find one worth going to, so I know what a hassle it is. Remember

it doesn't have to be an M.D.; my D.O. does a great job.

The New England Journal of Medicine (Volume 340:424-429 February 11, 1999)

published a study, " Effects of Thyroxine as Compared with Thyroxine plus

Triiodothyronine in Patients with Hypothyroidism " . The conclusion of the

study was that mood and neuropsychological function was improved by

supplementing with T4 plus T3. Based on that study alone, one would think

your doctor should be willing to prescribe T3.

NEJM articles are free 6 months after publication. Registration is required,

but it's free at www.nejm.org. If you want that article and have trouble

getting it, I can forward you a copy.

Good luck,

Bertta

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel,

I've been completely shocked at the agony you've been put through, and then

the shabby don't care attitude of the doctors. I'm hoping you find someone

that will do a decent job for you soon. Most of us have been to quite a few

before we find one worth going to, so I know what a hassle it is. Remember

it doesn't have to be an M.D.; my D.O. does a great job.

The New England Journal of Medicine (Volume 340:424-429 February 11, 1999)

published a study, " Effects of Thyroxine as Compared with Thyroxine plus

Triiodothyronine in Patients with Hypothyroidism " . The conclusion of the

study was that mood and neuropsychological function was improved by

supplementing with T4 plus T3. Based on that study alone, one would think

your doctor should be willing to prescribe T3.

NEJM articles are free 6 months after publication. Registration is required,

but it's free at www.nejm.org. If you want that article and have trouble

getting it, I can forward you a copy.

Good luck,

Bertta

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel -

Oh, yes, when I start ringing, it means it's gonna give you nghtmares

if you don't prepare yourself ... I just wanted you to see how bad

some people's tongues can get. Even as bad as those WERE, it wasn't

considered serious...... THAT was my point. I'm sorry about your

appetite. Actually whole grain bread is not a good idea when your

gut is on the blink.

Seeds, whole grains, nut skins, popcorn hulls - all lodge in my gut

lining and seem to wreak havoc on it. Also the yeast in breads,

raised donuts etc. will keep me

in severe intestinal discomfort and pain. You might want to check

out some candida websites, like the one I posted for you the other

day, and see how changing the foods you eat might help with the whole

problem.

Yours is a very complicated situation, and you're going to have

to sit down and try to BRIEFLY OUTLINE every complaint you have,

and every procedure and medication and ????? you have

tried, and all your different diagnoses. THEN take all THAT, plus

copies of whatever testing these clowns HAVE run, and GO FIND YET

ANOTHER DOCTOR. I've been through 26 endos, and countless numbers of

regular docs. Good ones are FEW AND FAR BETWEEN, guaranteed!

Keep looking for a doctor who has some idea of what he is doing, and

whose office staff has enough competency and courtesy to keep you

informed, and see that the tests you request are either run, or you

are given a decent explanation as to why they WEREN'T run.

Since you are on replacement hormone, I'm really confused. I don't

even remember what thyroid treatment you've had. If you could just

put a quick note under where you sign the

bottom of the post, it would help others to keep track.

Such as listing whether or not you've had RAI, or surgery, or what

other complicatons (like TSS) you've had....... Not your whole

lifetime medical history, just something to help others avoid

confusion.

Like if a poster says the synthroid dose is not

enough - is that because they are on Block and Replace, or

because they are replacing their hormones due to RAI or surgery?

Your doctors have your records in front of them, so they

should wake up and READ them. I'm not getting the whole picture

here of your problem, so I'm just guessing from

a distance. Not to mention my brain feels like chewing

gum today.

I don't understand what " damage " you're talking about.

All I can say is, the antibiotics will destroy the

GOOD flora in the gut, and let the bad " critters " take

over after the antibiotics are withdrawn. Usually an

infestation in the digestive system will also show up

in the mouth - hence your tongue problems. Digestive

problems can also cause you to see " spots " in front of

your eyes. Just to show off-the-wall connections in symptoms.......

I haven't had a chance to research alternative ways of

dealing with tongue disorders yet, but I would imagine

searching google.com with good key words might come up

with something. Try searching " Dr. Walt Stoll and tongue

disorders " . Might be quite enlightening....

Don't be discouraged about what has already happened

to your gut, because the gut lining REPLACES ITSELF

EVERY 14 HOURS. Just think of the possibilities to make

some good changes and get several layers of gut to

heal up...... If some of the digestive system has been removed, then

make the most of what you have left.

I lost 1/3 of my stomach in emergency surgery. It blew out due to

perforating ulcers, and I also have a severely restricted pyloric

valve. I can barely eat solid food - and this was 5 years ago.

But I work around it. I basically LIVE on whole milk (the kind

with NO BST hormones).

We have to make the best of the situation

God has given us. I'm always complaining to myself, why do I have

to deal with SO many physical problems? But then I stop and realize

there are others with much more serious problems to contend with.

Such as Reeve. THAT man isn't ABOUT to give up!!!!!!!!

Then I count my blessings, and things look better..... even if

I'm in a hypO spell, and everything seems hopeless because my brain

is in slow gear. BTW, I did try an antidepressant once, and those

are TOTAL CRAP!!!!!!!

I'm sure we ALL agree on one thing: >>>What I want is a life that

doesn't revolve around Graves<<<< I think we need to work

on having our lives " revolve " around other more important things,

and think positively that someday we WILL beat this!

Best Wishes,

Chris

----------

Diagnosed with Graves' May 1979

On tapazole since May 1979

Age 53 - menopause at 46

Currently on 7.5 mg/da Tap, 30 mg/da inderal

Latest testing:

8/6/02 -- FT4 - 0.99 (0.71 - 1.85), FT3 - 4.4 (2.2 - 4.0)

9/9/02 -- FT4 - 1.1 (0.7 - 2.2 ), FT3 - 5.4 (1.5 - 4.1)

9/30/02 -- FT4 - 1.3 (0.7 - 2.2), FT3 - 4.7 (1.5 - 4.1)

-------------------

> > YES !

> >

> > The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

> >

> > He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria

> than the

> > white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or

black

> goes

> > away.

> >

> > So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been

when

> that next

> > one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on

the

> two new

> > meds.

> >

> > Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one,

that

> now as I

> > tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to

> believe me,

> > but since they do not consult, they have only people like me

> telling them.

> > And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman ,

talking

> with a

> > lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

> >

> > -Pam L -

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is

not intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the

endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to

emails.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel -

Oh, yes, when I start ringing, it means it's gonna give you nghtmares

if you don't prepare yourself ... I just wanted you to see how bad

some people's tongues can get. Even as bad as those WERE, it wasn't

considered serious...... THAT was my point. I'm sorry about your

appetite. Actually whole grain bread is not a good idea when your

gut is on the blink.

Seeds, whole grains, nut skins, popcorn hulls - all lodge in my gut

lining and seem to wreak havoc on it. Also the yeast in breads,

raised donuts etc. will keep me

in severe intestinal discomfort and pain. You might want to check

out some candida websites, like the one I posted for you the other

day, and see how changing the foods you eat might help with the whole

problem.

Yours is a very complicated situation, and you're going to have

to sit down and try to BRIEFLY OUTLINE every complaint you have,

and every procedure and medication and ????? you have

tried, and all your different diagnoses. THEN take all THAT, plus

copies of whatever testing these clowns HAVE run, and GO FIND YET

ANOTHER DOCTOR. I've been through 26 endos, and countless numbers of

regular docs. Good ones are FEW AND FAR BETWEEN, guaranteed!

Keep looking for a doctor who has some idea of what he is doing, and

whose office staff has enough competency and courtesy to keep you

informed, and see that the tests you request are either run, or you

are given a decent explanation as to why they WEREN'T run.

Since you are on replacement hormone, I'm really confused. I don't

even remember what thyroid treatment you've had. If you could just

put a quick note under where you sign the

bottom of the post, it would help others to keep track.

Such as listing whether or not you've had RAI, or surgery, or what

other complicatons (like TSS) you've had....... Not your whole

lifetime medical history, just something to help others avoid

confusion.

Like if a poster says the synthroid dose is not

enough - is that because they are on Block and Replace, or

because they are replacing their hormones due to RAI or surgery?

Your doctors have your records in front of them, so they

should wake up and READ them. I'm not getting the whole picture

here of your problem, so I'm just guessing from

a distance. Not to mention my brain feels like chewing

gum today.

I don't understand what " damage " you're talking about.

All I can say is, the antibiotics will destroy the

GOOD flora in the gut, and let the bad " critters " take

over after the antibiotics are withdrawn. Usually an

infestation in the digestive system will also show up

in the mouth - hence your tongue problems. Digestive

problems can also cause you to see " spots " in front of

your eyes. Just to show off-the-wall connections in symptoms.......

I haven't had a chance to research alternative ways of

dealing with tongue disorders yet, but I would imagine

searching google.com with good key words might come up

with something. Try searching " Dr. Walt Stoll and tongue

disorders " . Might be quite enlightening....

Don't be discouraged about what has already happened

to your gut, because the gut lining REPLACES ITSELF

EVERY 14 HOURS. Just think of the possibilities to make

some good changes and get several layers of gut to

heal up...... If some of the digestive system has been removed, then

make the most of what you have left.

I lost 1/3 of my stomach in emergency surgery. It blew out due to

perforating ulcers, and I also have a severely restricted pyloric

valve. I can barely eat solid food - and this was 5 years ago.

But I work around it. I basically LIVE on whole milk (the kind

with NO BST hormones).

We have to make the best of the situation

God has given us. I'm always complaining to myself, why do I have

to deal with SO many physical problems? But then I stop and realize

there are others with much more serious problems to contend with.

Such as Reeve. THAT man isn't ABOUT to give up!!!!!!!!

Then I count my blessings, and things look better..... even if

I'm in a hypO spell, and everything seems hopeless because my brain

is in slow gear. BTW, I did try an antidepressant once, and those

are TOTAL CRAP!!!!!!!

I'm sure we ALL agree on one thing: >>>What I want is a life that

doesn't revolve around Graves<<<< I think we need to work

on having our lives " revolve " around other more important things,

and think positively that someday we WILL beat this!

Best Wishes,

Chris

----------

Diagnosed with Graves' May 1979

On tapazole since May 1979

Age 53 - menopause at 46

Currently on 7.5 mg/da Tap, 30 mg/da inderal

Latest testing:

8/6/02 -- FT4 - 0.99 (0.71 - 1.85), FT3 - 4.4 (2.2 - 4.0)

9/9/02 -- FT4 - 1.1 (0.7 - 2.2 ), FT3 - 5.4 (1.5 - 4.1)

9/30/02 -- FT4 - 1.3 (0.7 - 2.2), FT3 - 4.7 (1.5 - 4.1)

-------------------

> > YES !

> >

> > The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

> >

> > He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria

> than the

> > white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or

black

> goes

> > away.

> >

> > So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been

when

> that next

> > one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on

the

> two new

> > meds.

> >

> > Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one,

that

> now as I

> > tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to

> believe me,

> > but since they do not consult, they have only people like me

> telling them.

> > And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman ,

talking

> with a

> > lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

> >

> > -Pam L -

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is

not intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the

endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to

emails.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel -

Oh, yes, when I start ringing, it means it's gonna give you nghtmares

if you don't prepare yourself ... I just wanted you to see how bad

some people's tongues can get. Even as bad as those WERE, it wasn't

considered serious...... THAT was my point. I'm sorry about your

appetite. Actually whole grain bread is not a good idea when your

gut is on the blink.

Seeds, whole grains, nut skins, popcorn hulls - all lodge in my gut

lining and seem to wreak havoc on it. Also the yeast in breads,

raised donuts etc. will keep me

in severe intestinal discomfort and pain. You might want to check

out some candida websites, like the one I posted for you the other

day, and see how changing the foods you eat might help with the whole

problem.

Yours is a very complicated situation, and you're going to have

to sit down and try to BRIEFLY OUTLINE every complaint you have,

and every procedure and medication and ????? you have

tried, and all your different diagnoses. THEN take all THAT, plus

copies of whatever testing these clowns HAVE run, and GO FIND YET

ANOTHER DOCTOR. I've been through 26 endos, and countless numbers of

regular docs. Good ones are FEW AND FAR BETWEEN, guaranteed!

Keep looking for a doctor who has some idea of what he is doing, and

whose office staff has enough competency and courtesy to keep you

informed, and see that the tests you request are either run, or you

are given a decent explanation as to why they WEREN'T run.

Since you are on replacement hormone, I'm really confused. I don't

even remember what thyroid treatment you've had. If you could just

put a quick note under where you sign the

bottom of the post, it would help others to keep track.

Such as listing whether or not you've had RAI, or surgery, or what

other complicatons (like TSS) you've had....... Not your whole

lifetime medical history, just something to help others avoid

confusion.

Like if a poster says the synthroid dose is not

enough - is that because they are on Block and Replace, or

because they are replacing their hormones due to RAI or surgery?

Your doctors have your records in front of them, so they

should wake up and READ them. I'm not getting the whole picture

here of your problem, so I'm just guessing from

a distance. Not to mention my brain feels like chewing

gum today.

I don't understand what " damage " you're talking about.

All I can say is, the antibiotics will destroy the

GOOD flora in the gut, and let the bad " critters " take

over after the antibiotics are withdrawn. Usually an

infestation in the digestive system will also show up

in the mouth - hence your tongue problems. Digestive

problems can also cause you to see " spots " in front of

your eyes. Just to show off-the-wall connections in symptoms.......

I haven't had a chance to research alternative ways of

dealing with tongue disorders yet, but I would imagine

searching google.com with good key words might come up

with something. Try searching " Dr. Walt Stoll and tongue

disorders " . Might be quite enlightening....

Don't be discouraged about what has already happened

to your gut, because the gut lining REPLACES ITSELF

EVERY 14 HOURS. Just think of the possibilities to make

some good changes and get several layers of gut to

heal up...... If some of the digestive system has been removed, then

make the most of what you have left.

I lost 1/3 of my stomach in emergency surgery. It blew out due to

perforating ulcers, and I also have a severely restricted pyloric

valve. I can barely eat solid food - and this was 5 years ago.

But I work around it. I basically LIVE on whole milk (the kind

with NO BST hormones).

We have to make the best of the situation

God has given us. I'm always complaining to myself, why do I have

to deal with SO many physical problems? But then I stop and realize

there are others with much more serious problems to contend with.

Such as Reeve. THAT man isn't ABOUT to give up!!!!!!!!

Then I count my blessings, and things look better..... even if

I'm in a hypO spell, and everything seems hopeless because my brain

is in slow gear. BTW, I did try an antidepressant once, and those

are TOTAL CRAP!!!!!!!

I'm sure we ALL agree on one thing: >>>What I want is a life that

doesn't revolve around Graves<<<< I think we need to work

on having our lives " revolve " around other more important things,

and think positively that someday we WILL beat this!

Best Wishes,

Chris

----------

Diagnosed with Graves' May 1979

On tapazole since May 1979

Age 53 - menopause at 46

Currently on 7.5 mg/da Tap, 30 mg/da inderal

Latest testing:

8/6/02 -- FT4 - 0.99 (0.71 - 1.85), FT3 - 4.4 (2.2 - 4.0)

9/9/02 -- FT4 - 1.1 (0.7 - 2.2 ), FT3 - 5.4 (1.5 - 4.1)

9/30/02 -- FT4 - 1.3 (0.7 - 2.2), FT3 - 4.7 (1.5 - 4.1)

-------------------

> > YES !

> >

> > The dentist told me I was lucky it was white and not BLACK !

> >

> > He said when it gets THAT dry, you can get a different bacteria

> than the

> > white one. The cure is to fix the dry mouth and the white or

black

> goes

> > away.

> >

> > So if yours was gray...then mine turning gray must have been

when

> that next

> > one was just starting. Because it was right then that I went on

the

> two new

> > meds.

> >

> > Now as for the medical community. I saw so many on this one,

that

> now as I

> > tell them how I cured this, the dentist and the doctors seem to

> believe me,

> > but since they do not consult, they have only people like me

> telling them.

> > And hopefully they remember the next time a crazy woman ,

talking

> with a

> > lisp, complains about burning tongue, dry mouth, and HYPO !

> >

> > -Pam L -

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is

not intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the

endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to

emails.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------

>

>