Re: Is Methimazole toxic?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/8/2002 5:08:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

osachuk@... writes:

> Her story is that she has patients

> that are 6 months post RAI and are fine.

>

Lori,

I am one year post RAI and I am still not " fine. " I have been on Synthroid

..150 since March and had some symptoms that I thought were hyper last week.

Got my lab results today and it turns out I am hypO...one year post RAI.

Personally, I wouldn't waste another ounce of energy or another minute of

your time with this doctor.

Just my thoughts...

God bless,

Hashi's, Graves, TED worsened by RAI Sept. 2001

http://www.mediboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001091;p=1

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/8/2002 5:08:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

osachuk@... writes:

> Her story is that she has patients

> that are 6 months post RAI and are fine.

>

Lori,

I am one year post RAI and I am still not " fine. " I have been on Synthroid

..150 since March and had some symptoms that I thought were hyper last week.

Got my lab results today and it turns out I am hypO...one year post RAI.

Personally, I wouldn't waste another ounce of energy or another minute of

your time with this doctor.

Just my thoughts...

God bless,

Hashi's, Graves, TED worsened by RAI Sept. 2001

http://www.mediboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001091;p=1

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori, Good for you for trying to stick up for yourself. First thing out

of my mouth as I'm reading this is all kinds of swear words... and the

thought that you need to fire her and go find a naturopath! Sheesh. I need

to go do my yoga or something, hu?

If you really wanted to get into it with her, there are lots of articles you

could print out and give to her... but do you really want to waste your

paper? Or your time? You know your blood pressure will never be normal if

you keep seeing her.

On the other hand, maybe you would be doing other people a favor if you were

successful in educating her.... but at what harm to yourself?

You need to find out why your blood pressure is up... I don't know why your

GP couldn't work on that for you.. or why can't she send you to someone

nicer? ok, now you need to fire two docs ;-)

But, seriously... Pam L. was having problems with her blood pressure because

she was a bit hypo... are you sure your numbers are normal for you? Could

you be a little hypo too?

And if you do want articles, you could start here for some:

http://www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/graves_disease

And yes, Methimazole can be " toxic " , but you usually find that out in the

first month of taking it... if you don't have any problems in that time with

it, chances are you won't. The one endo I saw was trying to frighten me

about ATDs too... how they can cause liver damage, or worse kill you by

killing all your white blood cells. He obviously didn't know what he was

talking about either... " Oh are you crazy? You want to take ATDs when you

know they can kill you? " Sheesh... breathe Pam, breathe.

Hope this helps... and I'm serious about finding a naturopath... they are

much nicer and even give you a hug if you need one. And certianly don't try

to rile you up before taking your blood pressure or blood for labs.

Pam B.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori, Good for you for trying to stick up for yourself. First thing out

of my mouth as I'm reading this is all kinds of swear words... and the

thought that you need to fire her and go find a naturopath! Sheesh. I need

to go do my yoga or something, hu?

If you really wanted to get into it with her, there are lots of articles you

could print out and give to her... but do you really want to waste your

paper? Or your time? You know your blood pressure will never be normal if

you keep seeing her.

On the other hand, maybe you would be doing other people a favor if you were

successful in educating her.... but at what harm to yourself?

You need to find out why your blood pressure is up... I don't know why your

GP couldn't work on that for you.. or why can't she send you to someone

nicer? ok, now you need to fire two docs ;-)

But, seriously... Pam L. was having problems with her blood pressure because

she was a bit hypo... are you sure your numbers are normal for you? Could

you be a little hypo too?

And if you do want articles, you could start here for some:

http://www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/graves_disease

And yes, Methimazole can be " toxic " , but you usually find that out in the

first month of taking it... if you don't have any problems in that time with

it, chances are you won't. The one endo I saw was trying to frighten me

about ATDs too... how they can cause liver damage, or worse kill you by

killing all your white blood cells. He obviously didn't know what he was

talking about either... " Oh are you crazy? You want to take ATDs when you

know they can kill you? " Sheesh... breathe Pam, breathe.

Hope this helps... and I'm serious about finding a naturopath... they are

much nicer and even give you a hug if you need one. And certianly don't try

to rile you up before taking your blood pressure or blood for labs.

Pam B.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

I am so sorry you had such a horrible experience with this woman. If you

have been on tapazole for a year now then I would believe that it is not

going to do any damage to your liver. If that were going to happen it would

have happened in the very early stages of beginning that atd'. In Europe

and Japan where they are much more advanced in treating graves with atd's

long term atd's they would have laughed at her statements. There are

studies, which I don't have at my finger tips right now that talk about long

term atd use and atd use to control gaves for life. Tell HER to do her

research.

I would also argue the point with her when you go back exactly what does she

thing RADIOACTIVE iodine is...if she thinks that is not toxic, she needs to

go back to school, preferable pre-med and start all over again...or tell her

to take a 6 month course of say 20 mg of tapazole a day or 300mg of ptu a

day for 6 months, no labs, no adjustments and see how she likes living in

hypOhell, which is what RAI will create, PERMANENT hypothyroidism. And if

one has never experienced that, especially long term they know not what they

speak of.

Sure, many people do fine after RAI for 6 months, a year, 2 years, some

maybe even a bit longer, but when they hit that 5-10 year mark post RAI

ablation and full thyroid failure they do begin having problems. Most for

me have had to do with improper treatment by physicians who monitor post RAI

patients using only a TSH . Doctors who are so gung-ho on RAI like she is do not have any

kind of a clue how to treat post rai patients. My guess would be this

doctor also has very little knowledge of the use of T3 supplements, or T3 SR

supplements for hypo patients, she probably only treats with T4 replacement

hormone only and when patients come into her with complaints, if those

symptoms are not on her very SHORT list of symptoms she also tells her

post-rai patients 'it's not thyroid related'.

If you do choose to go back to her, I would make the point of toxicity of

rai and if you want to add to it, print up the contract with a pushy doctor

from the files section on the home page. If she denys that any one of those

items in that contract are not possible, some are definate, she has not clue

about what ablating the thyroid means for patients who have to forever live

without a working thyroid.

Better to have a working thyroid that *may* need long term atd's to keep it

working properly than to not have a thyroid that knows what our bodies need

and have to depend on a synthetic hormone for the rest of our lives that

causes many many problems. Until she lives in hypOhell, she has no business

talking to you the way she did. Trading a pill a day in atd's for a pill a

day to replace natural thyroid hormone is NOT an even trade. Trust me.

Good luck Lori, if you go back to this TWIT, be armed to put her in her

place.

Jody

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Lori wrote:

>

> So here's the question again....is Methimazole toxic?

Well it has been given to many people for decades....

I like the idea that Methimazole might damage your liver or

kidneys, so have something that is sure to zap your thyroid,

stands a 1 in 3 chance of aggravating the eye disease, and a 1

in 50 chance of killing you through cancer, it is obviously

preferable...

The only toxicity I've seen major concern expressed over is with

bone marrow.

The only study I found on a quick search was with cats (who get

much larger doses of Methimazole due to difference is

metabolism), most of the problems occured withing the first two

months, and all cleared on stopping the methimazole.

Next time ask her if you can stop the RAI if after taking it, it

causes the eye problem to flare up, or you don't get on with the

treatment for hypothyroidism

> If not, how can

> I convince her of it, or should I just cancel my next appointment!

It isn't your job to convince her, just get well, ideally into

remission.

High blood pressure is often a symptom of hypothyroidism, what

are the latest blood test results?

High blood pressure is more often a result of stressful doctors

appointments, I'm serious, if you teach patients to take their

own blood pressure, and send them home, they get lower readings!

The resultant inappropriate treatment of healthy people for

hypertension is a major issue for modern medicine.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

All drugs have the potential to be toxic, even aspirin. Toxicity generally

depends on the dose when dealing with pharmaceuticals. Methimazole can cause

liver problems in <1% of patients using it. And it can have other side

effects, such as rashes. Kidney problems aren't associated with it. And yes,

the labs we run are very specific and sensitive. If liver cells are damaged

at all, they release enzymes into the circulation and these levels rise.

Maybe she should read Goffman's reports on the toxicity of RAI.

And many patients do fine for the first year after RAI. However, I've been

hearing from as many as 10 people a day who are having problems only a few

months after RAI. I don't know if it's the insurance restrictions that are

responsible since frequent monitoring of blood tests isn't supposed to be

part of the package with RAI. And without frequent monitoring, those labs can

be jumping all over the place. Anyway, had she said she'd seen lots of

patients doing well 6-10 years after RAI, her argument might mean something.

What a visit! No wonder your pulse was high. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

All drugs have the potential to be toxic, even aspirin. Toxicity generally

depends on the dose when dealing with pharmaceuticals. Methimazole can cause

liver problems in <1% of patients using it. And it can have other side

effects, such as rashes. Kidney problems aren't associated with it. And yes,

the labs we run are very specific and sensitive. If liver cells are damaged

at all, they release enzymes into the circulation and these levels rise.

Maybe she should read Goffman's reports on the toxicity of RAI.

And many patients do fine for the first year after RAI. However, I've been

hearing from as many as 10 people a day who are having problems only a few

months after RAI. I don't know if it's the insurance restrictions that are

responsible since frequent monitoring of blood tests isn't supposed to be

part of the package with RAI. And without frequent monitoring, those labs can

be jumping all over the place. Anyway, had she said she'd seen lots of

patients doing well 6-10 years after RAI, her argument might mean something.

What a visit! No wonder your pulse was high. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

All drugs have the potential to be toxic, even aspirin. Toxicity generally

depends on the dose when dealing with pharmaceuticals. Methimazole can cause

liver problems in <1% of patients using it. And it can have other side

effects, such as rashes. Kidney problems aren't associated with it. And yes,

the labs we run are very specific and sensitive. If liver cells are damaged

at all, they release enzymes into the circulation and these levels rise.

Maybe she should read Goffman's reports on the toxicity of RAI.

And many patients do fine for the first year after RAI. However, I've been

hearing from as many as 10 people a day who are having problems only a few

months after RAI. I don't know if it's the insurance restrictions that are

responsible since frequent monitoring of blood tests isn't supposed to be

part of the package with RAI. And without frequent monitoring, those labs can

be jumping all over the place. Anyway, had she said she'd seen lots of

patients doing well 6-10 years after RAI, her argument might mean something.

What a visit! No wonder your pulse was high. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

I am sitting here fuming at what I just read! This is NOT a doctor you want

to be seeing! I feel sorry for her less informed patients but I don't think

you ill be able to change her in any way. Sounds like she simply doesn't

want the " hassles " of having to treat someone with ATDs. Too much work for

her! As for the toxic stuff, I think you'd know by know if you were going to

have any type of adverse reaction.

I'd ditch her and not go back.

in MA

Diagnosed w/Graves, 03/1997

Refusing RAI Treatment!!!

Remission from 06/2000 to 07/2002, suspected " hyper " again.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

I am sitting here fuming at what I just read! This is NOT a doctor you want

to be seeing! I feel sorry for her less informed patients but I don't think

you ill be able to change her in any way. Sounds like she simply doesn't

want the " hassles " of having to treat someone with ATDs. Too much work for

her! As for the toxic stuff, I think you'd know by know if you were going to

have any type of adverse reaction.

I'd ditch her and not go back.

in MA

Diagnosed w/Graves, 03/1997

Refusing RAI Treatment!!!

Remission from 06/2000 to 07/2002, suspected " hyper " again.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

I am sitting here fuming at what I just read! This is NOT a doctor you want

to be seeing! I feel sorry for her less informed patients but I don't think

you ill be able to change her in any way. Sounds like she simply doesn't

want the " hassles " of having to treat someone with ATDs. Too much work for

her! As for the toxic stuff, I think you'd know by know if you were going to

have any type of adverse reaction.

I'd ditch her and not go back.

in MA

Diagnosed w/Graves, 03/1997

Refusing RAI Treatment!!!

Remission from 06/2000 to 07/2002, suspected " hyper " again.

[Guest guest]

My husband brought his own bp monitor (one of the not-too-expensive

automatic ones) to show the cardio that his bp was fine--every time he goes

to the doc, it goes through the roof. He had a history on the machine's

memory, and the np tried it and the cuff at the office, to see if they

matched up--and they did.

Terry

>

> Organization: Eighth Layer Limited

> Reply-To: graves_support

> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:45:38 +0100

> To: graves_support

> Subject: Re: Is Methimazole toxic?

>

> High blood pressure is more often a result of stressful doctors

> appointments, I'm serious, if you teach patients to take their

> own blood pressure, and send them home, they get lower readings!

[Guest guest]

My husband brought his own bp monitor (one of the not-too-expensive

automatic ones) to show the cardio that his bp was fine--every time he goes

to the doc, it goes through the roof. He had a history on the machine's

memory, and the np tried it and the cuff at the office, to see if they

matched up--and they did.

Terry

>

> Organization: Eighth Layer Limited

> Reply-To: graves_support

> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:45:38 +0100

> To: graves_support

> Subject: Re: Is Methimazole toxic?

>

> High blood pressure is more often a result of stressful doctors

> appointments, I'm serious, if you teach patients to take their

> own blood pressure, and send them home, they get lower readings!

[Guest guest]

Hi laurie and all,

I'm currently on methimazole.

It was my doctor's first choice.

I agree, that you should find another doctor, and get a second opinion

concerning your options.

Well, since I'm already blind.

Methimazole can't do anything to that.

Seriously, just pay attention to the way your body reacts to the

medicine.

Finally, i think that ri wouldn't be my first choice.

Take care all.

diagnosed with graves two weeks ago.

and taking it one day at a time.

On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:06:31 -0400 " L. O'Hearn " lisa.ohearn@...>

writes:

> Hi Lori,

>

> I am sitting here fuming at what I just read! This is NOT a doctor

> you want

> to be seeing! I feel sorry for her less informed patients but I

> don't think

> you ill be able to change her in any way. Sounds like she simply

> doesn't

> want the " hassles " of having to treat someone with ATDs. Too much

> work for

> her! As for the toxic stuff, I think you'd know by know if you were

> going to

> have any type of adverse reaction.

>

> I'd ditch her and not go back.

>

> in MA

> Diagnosed w/Graves, 03/1997

> Refusing RAI Treatment!!!

> Remission from 06/2000 to 07/2002, suspected " hyper " again.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'd have to ask her how anything could be more toxic that radiation....

Holly

Is Methimazole toxic?

Well, I'm here to vent! Today I met the doctor you all have been

talking about. Next week it will be my one year anniversary of the

thyroid storm and GD diagnosis. After going up and down for the past

year, my labs are in normal range...for how long, I don't know.

My biggest problem right now is my blood pressure. It's still high,

so my GP sent me to an internist....in the phone book she is listed

as a doctor of internal medicine. So I had my appt this morning, and

almost walked out within the first 5 minutes. The first thing she

asked me was why I chose ATD instead of RAI, and if I had been her

patient I would have had RAI a year ago! She could not understand why

I would want to take something as toxic as Methimazole and she only

uses it on patients for a few weeks before they go for RAI. We got

into a heated argument about it and she kept saying that she couldn't

understand why I would want to do that and what kind of mental state

was I in to put something so toxic into my body.

When I asked her what she meant by toxic, she said that it causes

liver and kidney damage. I asked if that can't be watched by having

regular labs and she said that you can never tell when the organs are

being damaged.

She ended the argument by saying that give her a year and she would

have me convinced to go with RAI! Her story is that she has patients

that are 6 months post RAI and are fine. Why would anyone want to

poison themselves with Methimazole?

Then she took my blood pressure and said my pulse was over 100....I

wonder why???????? So she wants to see me again in 3 weeks to tweak

with my blood pressure medication and I am sure will be preaching

again about how I am poisoning myself with Methimazole.

I left there so angry and all I could think about was all the stories

I had read in this group....all too familiar. A year ago she would

have had me so scared I would have been running to RAI!!

So here's the question again....is Methimazole toxic? If not, how can

I convince her of it, or should I just cancel my next appointment!

Thanks

Lori

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone. The more I think about this, I think I should fire

her!

I think my GP was hoping that as a dr of internal medicine, she was

going to look at my whole body and try and figure out why the blood

pressure meds weren't working...instead of just tweaking with meds. I

will talk to my GP about it next week and tell her how disappointed I

was with the referral. I am sure my GP can tweak with blood pressure

medications just as well as the internist can! It makes me mad just

thinking about the crazy dr!!!

I have had wbc and liver panels, as well as everything from calcium

levels done and everything still comes back normal. I've been on 7.5mg

Methimazole for the last 3 weeks..the last labs last week shows me

within normal range, but at the hypo end. My hair is still falling

out but I don't have joint aches like before. Perhaps I am still hypo

for me but will give it some more time to see if things go hyper.

I am so confused on how to handle the blood pressure thing. My bp has

had a range from 156/80 to 176/85. I am now taking 90mg of Adalat XL a

day, which is the highest dosage for that med. That dosage is only

recommended for people who have chronic heart problems, according to

my GP, so she was hesitant to increase it to that. But my endo said to

go ahead and do that and if it doesn't work to add another med.

The crazy internist said this med is only for 80 year olds who have

had a heart attack..but to go ahead and try the highest dosage for 3

weeks. If it doesn't work, we'll stop it and go back on Diovan that I

was on after I was diagnosed last year..she thought my GP didn't give

it time to work. But when I went to the cardiologist last December,

he wondered why I was on Diovan because he thought it was garbage and

all I needed was Atenolol! AAHH!! All the echos and tests the

cardiologist did came back normal.

Doesn't anyone know what they are doing? Pam L. does this sound

familiar at all? Has anyone had success treating bp with Graves?

Lori

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone. The more I think about this, I think I should fire

her!

I think my GP was hoping that as a dr of internal medicine, she was

going to look at my whole body and try and figure out why the blood

pressure meds weren't working...instead of just tweaking with meds. I

will talk to my GP about it next week and tell her how disappointed I

was with the referral. I am sure my GP can tweak with blood pressure

medications just as well as the internist can! It makes me mad just

thinking about the crazy dr!!!

I have had wbc and liver panels, as well as everything from calcium

levels done and everything still comes back normal. I've been on 7.5mg

Methimazole for the last 3 weeks..the last labs last week shows me

within normal range, but at the hypo end. My hair is still falling

out but I don't have joint aches like before. Perhaps I am still hypo

for me but will give it some more time to see if things go hyper.

I am so confused on how to handle the blood pressure thing. My bp has

had a range from 156/80 to 176/85. I am now taking 90mg of Adalat XL a

day, which is the highest dosage for that med. That dosage is only

recommended for people who have chronic heart problems, according to

my GP, so she was hesitant to increase it to that. But my endo said to

go ahead and do that and if it doesn't work to add another med.

The crazy internist said this med is only for 80 year olds who have

had a heart attack..but to go ahead and try the highest dosage for 3

weeks. If it doesn't work, we'll stop it and go back on Diovan that I

was on after I was diagnosed last year..she thought my GP didn't give

it time to work. But when I went to the cardiologist last December,

he wondered why I was on Diovan because he thought it was garbage and

all I needed was Atenolol! AAHH!! All the echos and tests the

cardiologist did came back normal.

Doesn't anyone know what they are doing? Pam L. does this sound

familiar at all? Has anyone had success treating bp with Graves?

Lori

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone. The more I think about this, I think I should fire

her!

I think my GP was hoping that as a dr of internal medicine, she was

going to look at my whole body and try and figure out why the blood

pressure meds weren't working...instead of just tweaking with meds. I

will talk to my GP about it next week and tell her how disappointed I

was with the referral. I am sure my GP can tweak with blood pressure

medications just as well as the internist can! It makes me mad just

thinking about the crazy dr!!!

I have had wbc and liver panels, as well as everything from calcium

levels done and everything still comes back normal. I've been on 7.5mg

Methimazole for the last 3 weeks..the last labs last week shows me

within normal range, but at the hypo end. My hair is still falling

out but I don't have joint aches like before. Perhaps I am still hypo

for me but will give it some more time to see if things go hyper.

I am so confused on how to handle the blood pressure thing. My bp has

had a range from 156/80 to 176/85. I am now taking 90mg of Adalat XL a

day, which is the highest dosage for that med. That dosage is only

recommended for people who have chronic heart problems, according to

my GP, so she was hesitant to increase it to that. But my endo said to

go ahead and do that and if it doesn't work to add another med.

The crazy internist said this med is only for 80 year olds who have

had a heart attack..but to go ahead and try the highest dosage for 3

weeks. If it doesn't work, we'll stop it and go back on Diovan that I

was on after I was diagnosed last year..she thought my GP didn't give

it time to work. But when I went to the cardiologist last December,

he wondered why I was on Diovan because he thought it was garbage and

all I needed was Atenolol! AAHH!! All the echos and tests the

cardiologist did came back normal.

Doesn't anyone know what they are doing? Pam L. does this sound

familiar at all? Has anyone had success treating bp with Graves?

Lori

[Guest guest]

Lori,

Did you read my post where I started taking hawthorne berry herbs in a

capsule form and they brought my blood pressure way down. I've also read that

this herb is useful for treating symptoms in hyperthyroidism. Take care,

Elaine

[Guest guest]

Welcome . I read your post and said Wow, for two reasons. First of

all, your good humor. Trust me, I was not making jokes within two weeks

of being diagnosed. Second of all, that your doctor's first choice was

methimazole. I know that such endocrinologists are out there;

statistically they're about one in five. But I was still impressed. Where

are you located?

Take care, Fay

diagnosed in March 2000; on Tapazole from June 2000 to August 2001 and in

remission since then

P.S. Is there anything we can do to make processing your mail easier, for

example using fewer abbreviations?

________________________________________________________________

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Elaine. I will have to look for the post.

Now speaking of toxic........on Tues and Wed this week, I took the

90mg of Adalat XL that the internist and endo were pushing me to take.

What a ride that was! Tuesday my hands and feet began to swell, then

Wed with another dose everything began to swell. That night I was

laying in bed thinking that even my tongue had swollen. I read on the

net of how swelling is a side effect of Adalat...well it appeared to

me like I was being poisoned. Yesterday my fingers were too sore to

attempt the keyboard. My mom came over and couldn't believe how

horrible I looked. I even had brown under my eyes!

I dropped the dosage to 60mg, as that is the max recommended dosage of

that..I feel better today but still swollen. I guess I will stay at

that dosage until my appt with my GP on Thursday, unless the swelling

continues..then drop the dosage again. Then I can try get her to

switch me to an ACE Inhibitor type.

I'm not going to face that internist again..she's fired!

Lori

> Lori,

> Did you read my post where I started taking hawthorne berry herbs in

a

> capsule form and they brought my blood pressure way down. I've also

read that

> this herb is useful for treating symptoms in hyperthyroidism. Take

care,

> Elaine

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am new to reading the e-mails re: Grave's. I missed something about the

problems with methimazole in regard to the eyes. Can you fill me in?

Thanks a bunch.

Love, Dottie

[Guest guest]

dottyinfl@... wrote:

>

> I am new to reading the e-mails re: Grave's. I missed something about the

> problems with methimazole in regard to the eyes. Can you fill me in?

Hi Dottie, welcome to the list.

If you go to www.yahoo.com and select Groups, hopefully it'll

remember you (or login if it doesn't) and choose " Grave's

Support " , you'll find all the old posts archived.

I don't think there are any problems with regard to Methimazole

and eyes but I haven't been following this thread that

carefully. There was a suggestion that PTU is better at

suppressing antibodies than Methimazole, which might help the

eyes more, but I think that will be a subtle difference between

two fairly similar drugs. You might have other reasons for

preferring Methimazole.