Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10 secon...

[Guest guest]

I would like add to Gene's postion by throwing this out: Why was the wife in the

car? Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I cannot think of a reason why

he would be on patrol with his wife? I know that my wife would add to the

anxiety of any situation, and I would never wqant to have her in the car with me

when I might be ordered into harms way.

This guy is/was not thinking that day. It could be PTSD as Gene sugggested, or

just a case of the plain ol' dumbass, whatever the case is, I really agree that

the real issue is his readiness for duty.

L. Gaines M.Ed. A.T., C./L.A.T. NREMT-P

Head Athletic Trainer

Alabama A & M University

c:

jlgatc@...

To: texasems-l

From: wegandy1938@...

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:04:49 -0400

Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

The deeper question that should be addressed, and I hope it is by OK DPS,

is what's going on with this trooper emotionally. It's clear that he " lost

it " over relatively nothing.

Is he emotionally capable of wearing a gun and a badge and executing his

duties in a professional manner? Is he suffering from PTSD as a result of

his Iraq experience? IS HE SAFE TO LET OUT ON THE STREETS WITH A GUN?

The escalation began with him and his attitude. He was clearly out of

control. That's scary. Particularly over such a trivial matter. The video

clearly shows him driving at a very high rate of speed when he approached

the ambulance. It also clearly shows that he was not delayed more than 10

seconds because the ambulance was in the way. Then, after the " emergency "

he was going to turned out to be a nothing, his anger even escalated more.

That's indicative of an anger management problem big time.

If the State of Oklahoma's DPS is to have any credibility at all, it must

deal with these questions before this guy goes nuts and does something much

worse.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

GG

**************

Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!

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[Guest guest]

yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital within

a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on what

was going on.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@... <

rob.davis@...> wrote:

>

>

> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz "

ruizjorgetexas@...>

> said:

>

> > Everyone needs to remember that we

> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already agitated

> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and professionally

> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his voice

> to

> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the paramedic

> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not

> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned it

> back down.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital within

a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on what

was going on.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@... <

rob.davis@...> wrote:

>

>

> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz "

ruizjorgetexas@...>

> said:

>

> > Everyone needs to remember that we

> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already agitated

> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and professionally

> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his voice

> to

> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the paramedic

> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not

> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned it

> back down.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital within

a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on what

was going on.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@... <

rob.davis@...> wrote:

>

>

> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz "

ruizjorgetexas@...>

> said:

>

> > Everyone needs to remember that we

> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already agitated

> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and professionally

> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his voice

> to

> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the paramedic

> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not

> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned it

> back down.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, if this thread doesn't end pretty soon I'm gonna send that OK State

Trooper over to put you all in choke holds and " taze ya bro " .

________________________________

From: texasems-l texasems-l >

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Sent: Thu Jun 18 13:30:46 2009

Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital within

a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on what

was going on.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@...

<

rob.davis@... > wrote:

>

>

> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz " ruizjorgetexas@...

>

> said:

>

> > Everyone needs to remember that we

> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already agitated

> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and professionally

> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his voice

> to

> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the paramedic

> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not

> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned it

> back down.

>

> Rob

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Not saying that I agree totally with the way Maurice White handled the

situation, but leaving your patient in the back while you get out of the rig

does not necessarily constitute abandonment. This is a myth we've been feeding

our students for years, and it's just that - a myth.

Why did the medic abandon his patient and leave the back of the ambulance?

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for

5-10 secon...

> yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

> patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital within

> a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on what

> was going on.

> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@armynurse corps.com

<

> rob.davis@armynurse corps.com >

wrote:

>>

>>

>> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz " < ruizjorgetexas@ gmail.com

>

>> said:

>>

>> > Everyone needs to remember that we

>> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already agitated

>> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and professionally

>> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his voice

>> to

>> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

>>

>> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the paramedic

>> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

>> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

>> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not

>> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned it

>> back down.

>>

>> Rob

>>

>>

>>

>

[Guest guest]

" Abandonment is sometimes defined as the unilateral termination of the

provider/patient relationship at a time when continuing care is still

needed. It is a form of negligence that involves termination of care

without the patient’s consent " (Maggiore).

Leaving the ambulance to find out why an officer is detaining your

ambulance isn't abandonment, in fact it was probably one of the few

things he was able to do at the time for patient care, as his " care "

had probably devolved to " monitor and transport, " and the trooper was

definitely impeding the 'transport' part of that. So long as there is

nothing 'more important' (e.g. ABCs, CPR) that you -should- be doing,

and you aren't terminating care (i.e. you intend to return to the

patient,) you aren't abandoning that patient. Of course, if something

happens while you aren't there, you may be -negligent- (and they may

toss on abandonment in the civil suit just to add insult to injury)

which is why it's a good idea to stay with the patient in a system

that is engineered to be one provider : one patient, but it's not

mandatory.

The paramedic did nothing wrong--he did not even " abandon " his

patient. The situation may be worse because of the trooper's

(over)reaction to the paramedic, however pretty much everything the

paramedic said was " correct " insofar as my reading of Oklahoma law.

I'm not a lawyer. The person I cited below is, so read her article on

abandonment rather then solely taking my opinion above.

Austin

Maggiore, W. Ann. " Patient Abandonment: What It Is -- and Isn't. "

JEMS. 04 Oct 2007. Web. 20 Jun 2009.

http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/columns/Maggiore/Patient_Abandonment.html

> By no means do I defend the trooper however no one has raised one

> big question. Why did the medic abandon his patient and leave the

> back of the ambulance? I was taught to never leave a patient alone.

> If the medic stayed in the vehicle this may have been different. The

> driver should have addressed the trooper. I apologize if I miss the

> fact that there was a second attendant in back.

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:29, " steven goldstein " smg721@...> said:

> By no means do I defend the trooper however no one has raised one big

question.

> Why did the medic abandon his patient and leave the back of the ambulance? I

was

> taught to never leave a patient alone.

Actually, several people brought that up from the very beginning. However, it

has been thoroughly discredited as a legitimate issue from day 1. Just like the

medicine taught in a 120 hour EMT course is a very oversimplified version of

medical reality, the simplistic legal cook book taught in EMT school is not so

much legal reality as it is a simple formula. That's all we have time for in

120 hours.

When you drop that patient off at the ER, you won't see a nurse or physician

sitting constantly sitting at the patient's side. They stick them in a room

then leave them. Yet the hospital personnel are not being charged with

abandonment.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box. Unfortunately, that is one of the

biggest failures of EMS education today.

Rob

[Guest guest]

It is not abandonment to step away from your patient, provided they are

stable enough. Have you never triaged more than one patient at a time? Don't

get me wrong, I'm not sure him getting out of the unit was very smart or

not, but it still did not constitute abandonment of the patient.

Thom Seeber, CCEMT-P

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

for 5-10 secon...

> yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

> patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital

within

> a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on

what

> was going on.

> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@armynurse corps.com

<

> rob.davis@armynurse corps.com >

wrote:

>>

>>

>> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz " < ruizjorgetexas@

gmail.com

>

>> said:

>>

>> > Everyone needs to remember that we

>> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already agitated

>> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and

professionally

>> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his

voice

>> to

>> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

>>

>> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the

paramedic

>> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

>> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

>> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not

>> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned

it

>> back down.

>>

>> Rob

>>

>>

>>

>

[Guest guest]

The complicating situation is the woman in the front seat of the patrol

car, which turns out to be the trooper's wife. The medic in the back has said

that he thought the trooper was trying to stop them because he had a

medical emergency involving the woman, whose identity the medic did not know.

That may be PART of it.

As in all cases, the truth is hard to ascertain. There are many factors

in play. Hindsight is always 20/20 as, I am sure, both the medic and

trooper realize now.

GG

>

>

>

>

> By no means do I defend the trooper however no one has raised one big

> question. Why did the medic abandon his patient and leave the back of the

> ambulance? I was taught to never leave a patient alone. If the medic stayed in

> the vehicle this may have been different. The driver should have addressed

> the trooper. I apologize if I miss the fact that there was a second

> attendant in back.

>

> Shaw, Kenny wrote:

> > Okay, if this thread doesn't end pretty soon I'm gonna send that OK

> State Trooper over to put you all in choke holds and " taze ya bro " .

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > From: texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com < texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com >

> > To: texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com < texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com >

> > Sent: Thu Jun 18 13:30:46 2009

> > Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

> for 5-10 secon...

> > yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

> > patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital

> within

> > a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on

> what

> > was going on.

> > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@armynurse corps.com <

> mailto:rob. davis%40armynurs ecorps.com> <

> > rob.davis@armynurse corps.com >

> wrote:

> >>

> >>

> >> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz " < ruizjorgetexas@

> gmail.com

>

> >> said:

> >>

> >> > Everyone needs to remember that we

> >> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already

> agitated

> >> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and

> professionally

> >> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his

> voice

> >> to

> >> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

> >>

> >> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the

> paramedic

> >> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

> >> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

> >> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to

> not

> >> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned

> it

> >> back down.

> >>

> >> Rob

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

[Guest guest]

Just like the myth that all COPD patients need CISM after receiving

high-flow oxygen during their helicopter ride.

>

>

>

>

>

> Not saying that I agree totally with the way Maurice White handled the

> situation, but leaving your patient in the back while you get out of the rig

> does not necessarily constitute abandonment. This is a myth we've been feeding

> our students for years, and it's just that - a myth.

>

> Why did the medic abandon his patient and leave the back of the ambulance?

>

> Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for

>> 5-10 secon...

>> > yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance with the

>> > patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital

>> within

>> > a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated him on what

>> > was going on.

>> > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@armynurse corps.com

>> <

>> > rob.davis@armynurse corps.com >

>> wrote:

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz " < ruizjorgetexas@

>>> gmail.com

>> 40gmail.com> >

>>> >> said:

>>> >>

>>>> >> > Everyone needs to remember that we

>>>> >> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already

>>>> agitated

>>>> >> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and

>>>> professionally

>>>> >> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his

>>>> voice

>>> >> to

>>>> >> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

>>> >>

>>> >> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the

>>> paramedic

>>> >> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

>>> >> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic

>>> >> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not

>>> >> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned

>>> it

>>> >> back down.

>>> >>

>>> >> Rob

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >>

>> >

[Guest guest]

Well, it can be stressful for the hypoxic drive fairy to steal your

breath away. I'd want to unburden too, if it happened to me.

Bledsoe wrote:

>

>

> Just like the myth that all COPD patients need CISM after receiving

> high-flow oxygen during their helicopter ride.

>

> On 6/20/09 12:38 PM, " Grayson " Grayson902@...

> > wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Not saying that I agree totally with the way Maurice White handled the

> > situation, but leaving your patient in the back while you get out of

> the rig

> > does not necessarily constitute abandonment. This is a myth we've

> been feeding

> > our students for years, and it's just that - a myth.

> >

> > Why did the medic abandon his patient and leave the back of the

> ambulance?

> >

> > Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled

> them over for

> >> 5-10 secon...

> >> > yes but the paramedic should have just stayed in the ambulance

> with the

> >> > patient and asked questions to his partner if not enroute to hospital

> >> within

> >> > a few minutes. if anything else, his partner could have updated

> him on what

> >> > was going on.

> >> > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:22 AM, rob.davis@armynurse corps.com

> >> <

> >> > rob.davis@armynurse corps.com

ecorps.com> >

> >> wrote:

> >>> >>

> >>> >>

> >>> >> On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz " < ruizjorgetexas@

> >>> gmail.com

>>> 40gmail.com> >

> >>> >> said:

> >>> >>

> >>>> >> > Everyone needs to remember that we

> >>>> >> > are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already

> >>>> agitated

> >>>> >> > becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and

> >>>> professionally

> >>>> >> > talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can

> lower his

> >>>> voice

> >>> >> to

> >>>> >> > be able to hear the other person in theory.

> >>> >>

> >>> >> Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the

> >>> paramedic

> >>> >> raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The

> >>> >> encounter had already escalated to unilateral violence before

> the medic

> >>> >> raised his voice while being assaulted. It is a little

> unrealistic to not

> >>> >> expect the voice to raise at that point. And even then he

> quickly toned

> >>> it

> >>> >> back down.

> >>> >>

> >>> >> Rob

> >>> >>

> >>> >>

> >>> >>

> >> >