Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10 secon...

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:14, " Ruiz " ruizjorgetexas@...> said:

> Everyone needs to remember that we

> are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already agitated

> becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and professionally

> talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his voice to

> be able to hear the other person in theory.

Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? I never heard the paramedic

raise his voice until long after he was physically assaulted. U The encounter

had already escalated to unilateral violence before the medic raised his voice

while being assaulted. It is a little unrealistic to not expect the voice to

raise at that point. And even then he quickly toned it back down.

Rob

[Guest guest]

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to

arrest. The concept that he was somehow " obstructing justice " is

entertaining--I didn't really witness a lot of 'justice' in that video.

The officer's pretext for the stop was a " failure to yield " violation,

when the dash camera shows that the ambulance did yield in a timely

fashion as soon as traffic conditions allowed. Was the driver supposed

to 'yield' into the vehicle that was already in the shoulder, and

force that vehicle off the road? You can attack the driver's

situational awareness if you choose, but I would say that his

awareness was where it should be--on the road in front of him and on

the vehicle in front of (then on the shoulder beside) him.

The officer was well in excess of legal speed for the road, and the

closure rate on the ambulance was very high. It's well known that at

high speeds, you will regularly " overrun " your siren so you can not

rely on audible devices, and the driver of the ambulance reacted well

within a 'reasonable person's' reaction time to see and respond to the

police officer, so is 'failure to yield' a reasonable charge? I don't

think so. I could rail against the " guilty until proven innocent "

nature of traffic violations for a bit, but in this case there is

enough unimpeachable evidence to disprove that charge.

What I do see is a violation of 21 O.S. §, 650.3, Interference with

Emergency Medical Technicians or Care Providers - Punishment, " Every

person who willfully delays, obstructs or in any way interferes with

an emergency medical technician or other emergency medical care

provider in the performance of or attempt to perform emergency medical

care and treatment or in going to or returning from the scene of a

medical emergency, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor

punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six (6)

months, or by a fine not to exceed Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or

by both such fine and imprisonment. "

I also see several counts of 21 O.S. § 650.4 (a), Assault and Battery

Upon Emergency Medical Technician or Care Provider, " Every person who,

without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily

harm, commits any assault, battery or assault and battery upon the

person of an emergency medical care provider who is performing medical

care duties, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by

imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a

fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such

fine and imprisonment. "

The officer was attempting to arrest a paramedic for 21 O.S. § 540,

Obstruction of a Peace Officer, " Any person who willfully delays or

obstructs any public officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge

any duty of his office, is guilty of a misdemeanor. " Of course, the

question that comes to mind is what duty was the Trooper discharging

by trying to take aside the driver to berate him for his " failure to

yield " and " hand gesture " ? Was he trying to arrest him for 63 O.S. §

4221, Failure or Refusal to Comply with Lawful Order or Directive of

Water Safety Enforcement Officer (hidden under Ch. 72 'Boating

Safety'), " No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any

lawful order or directive of any law enforcement officer while in the

performance of his or her duty of enforcing the provisions of Title 63

or Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes. Failure to comply will

constitute a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed Two

Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00). " ? I don't see either of those

charges--they only apply to lawful orders.

None of the trooper's orders were lawful, as none of them complied

with 21 O.S. §, 650.3, as he was -willfully delaying- the performance

of emergency medical care and treatment. The paramedic was doing as I

would hope any 'crew leader' would do in any situation--he was

advocating for the person he supervised and attempting to defend

someone who wasn't doing anything wrong. In my opinion, the paramedic

showed amazing restraint, as his attitude and demeanor throughout the

whole incident were very professional given the situation. Even while

he was being arrested (or assaulted, depending on your view) he did

not strike back at the officer--even while being choked--and was

careful not to even -touch- the officer -while he was being choked-

(as you can see from the YouTube video.)

" Contempt of cop " isn't a crime. Getting hyped up on adrenalin running

at excessive speed en route to a scene then finding out the situation

is under control and needing someone to take it out on isn't a " duty

of a peace officer. " Choking someone isn't generally an acceptable

method for subduing someone during an arrest. I really don't get how

there is any blame to 'go around.'

Trooper should be relieved of duty at minimum. He should also

be charged with several misdemeanors, should be found guilty and

should receive probation (and also some counseling.) The other officer

who /turned off his camera/ at the scene should be officially

reprimanded. He should have also had a lot more sense then he did.

Don't get me wrong. I love cops. I work closely with them and get

along great. However, like every profession, there are good cops and

bad cops. There are even good cops who make bad decisions. It happens.

However, they are not above the law by virtue of their profession, and

sometimes that needs to be reinforced. In this case, it's appalling to

me that not only are Trooper and his attorney denying they did

anything wrong, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol seems to feel the

same. That's boneheaded and wrong.

Austin

(recently joined from the Paramedicine list)

> Unfortunately this was a bad situation for all parties involved. From

> experience, seeing the video i saw that both parties were at fault.

> first

> the officer should have been more professional and using better

> judgement in

> his manner of reaction. Second the paramedic shouldn't have left the

> patient

> because the driver could have just spoken with the officer exchange

> information and continued their journey to the hospital and then

> later find

> out what was the problem at the hospital. Everyone needs to remember

> that we

> are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already

> agitated

> becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and

> professionally

> talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his

> voice to

> be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to

arrest. The concept that he was somehow " obstructing justice " is

entertaining--I didn't really witness a lot of 'justice' in that video.

The officer's pretext for the stop was a " failure to yield " violation,

when the dash camera shows that the ambulance did yield in a timely

fashion as soon as traffic conditions allowed. Was the driver supposed

to 'yield' into the vehicle that was already in the shoulder, and

force that vehicle off the road? You can attack the driver's

situational awareness if you choose, but I would say that his

awareness was where it should be--on the road in front of him and on

the vehicle in front of (then on the shoulder beside) him.

The officer was well in excess of legal speed for the road, and the

closure rate on the ambulance was very high. It's well known that at

high speeds, you will regularly " overrun " your siren so you can not

rely on audible devices, and the driver of the ambulance reacted well

within a 'reasonable person's' reaction time to see and respond to the

police officer, so is 'failure to yield' a reasonable charge? I don't

think so. I could rail against the " guilty until proven innocent "

nature of traffic violations for a bit, but in this case there is

enough unimpeachable evidence to disprove that charge.

What I do see is a violation of 21 O.S. §, 650.3, Interference with

Emergency Medical Technicians or Care Providers - Punishment, " Every

person who willfully delays, obstructs or in any way interferes with

an emergency medical technician or other emergency medical care

provider in the performance of or attempt to perform emergency medical

care and treatment or in going to or returning from the scene of a

medical emergency, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor

punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six (6)

months, or by a fine not to exceed Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or

by both such fine and imprisonment. "

I also see several counts of 21 O.S. § 650.4 (a), Assault and Battery

Upon Emergency Medical Technician or Care Provider, " Every person who,

without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily

harm, commits any assault, battery or assault and battery upon the

person of an emergency medical care provider who is performing medical

care duties, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by

imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a

fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such

fine and imprisonment. "

The officer was attempting to arrest a paramedic for 21 O.S. § 540,

Obstruction of a Peace Officer, " Any person who willfully delays or

obstructs any public officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge

any duty of his office, is guilty of a misdemeanor. " Of course, the

question that comes to mind is what duty was the Trooper discharging

by trying to take aside the driver to berate him for his " failure to

yield " and " hand gesture " ? Was he trying to arrest him for 63 O.S. §

4221, Failure or Refusal to Comply with Lawful Order or Directive of

Water Safety Enforcement Officer (hidden under Ch. 72 'Boating

Safety'), " No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any

lawful order or directive of any law enforcement officer while in the

performance of his or her duty of enforcing the provisions of Title 63

or Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes. Failure to comply will

constitute a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed Two

Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00). " ? I don't see either of those

charges--they only apply to lawful orders.

None of the trooper's orders were lawful, as none of them complied

with 21 O.S. §, 650.3, as he was -willfully delaying- the performance

of emergency medical care and treatment. The paramedic was doing as I

would hope any 'crew leader' would do in any situation--he was

advocating for the person he supervised and attempting to defend

someone who wasn't doing anything wrong. In my opinion, the paramedic

showed amazing restraint, as his attitude and demeanor throughout the

whole incident were very professional given the situation. Even while

he was being arrested (or assaulted, depending on your view) he did

not strike back at the officer--even while being choked--and was

careful not to even -touch- the officer -while he was being choked-

(as you can see from the YouTube video.)

" Contempt of cop " isn't a crime. Getting hyped up on adrenalin running

at excessive speed en route to a scene then finding out the situation

is under control and needing someone to take it out on isn't a " duty

of a peace officer. " Choking someone isn't generally an acceptable

method for subduing someone during an arrest. I really don't get how

there is any blame to 'go around.'

Trooper should be relieved of duty at minimum. He should also

be charged with several misdemeanors, should be found guilty and

should receive probation (and also some counseling.) The other officer

who /turned off his camera/ at the scene should be officially

reprimanded. He should have also had a lot more sense then he did.

Don't get me wrong. I love cops. I work closely with them and get

along great. However, like every profession, there are good cops and

bad cops. There are even good cops who make bad decisions. It happens.

However, they are not above the law by virtue of their profession, and

sometimes that needs to be reinforced. In this case, it's appalling to

me that not only are Trooper and his attorney denying they did

anything wrong, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol seems to feel the

same. That's boneheaded and wrong.

Austin

(recently joined from the Paramedicine list)

> Unfortunately this was a bad situation for all parties involved. From

> experience, seeing the video i saw that both parties were at fault.

> first

> the officer should have been more professional and using better

> judgement in

> his manner of reaction. Second the paramedic shouldn't have left the

> patient

> because the driver could have just spoken with the officer exchange

> information and continued their journey to the hospital and then

> later find

> out what was the problem at the hospital. Everyone needs to remember

> that we

> are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already

> agitated

> becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and

> professionally

> talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his

> voice to

> be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to

arrest. The concept that he was somehow " obstructing justice " is

entertaining--I didn't really witness a lot of 'justice' in that video.

The officer's pretext for the stop was a " failure to yield " violation,

when the dash camera shows that the ambulance did yield in a timely

fashion as soon as traffic conditions allowed. Was the driver supposed

to 'yield' into the vehicle that was already in the shoulder, and

force that vehicle off the road? You can attack the driver's

situational awareness if you choose, but I would say that his

awareness was where it should be--on the road in front of him and on

the vehicle in front of (then on the shoulder beside) him.

The officer was well in excess of legal speed for the road, and the

closure rate on the ambulance was very high. It's well known that at

high speeds, you will regularly " overrun " your siren so you can not

rely on audible devices, and the driver of the ambulance reacted well

within a 'reasonable person's' reaction time to see and respond to the

police officer, so is 'failure to yield' a reasonable charge? I don't

think so. I could rail against the " guilty until proven innocent "

nature of traffic violations for a bit, but in this case there is

enough unimpeachable evidence to disprove that charge.

What I do see is a violation of 21 O.S. §, 650.3, Interference with

Emergency Medical Technicians or Care Providers - Punishment, " Every

person who willfully delays, obstructs or in any way interferes with

an emergency medical technician or other emergency medical care

provider in the performance of or attempt to perform emergency medical

care and treatment or in going to or returning from the scene of a

medical emergency, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor

punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six (6)

months, or by a fine not to exceed Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or

by both such fine and imprisonment. "

I also see several counts of 21 O.S. § 650.4 (a), Assault and Battery

Upon Emergency Medical Technician or Care Provider, " Every person who,

without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily

harm, commits any assault, battery or assault and battery upon the

person of an emergency medical care provider who is performing medical

care duties, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by

imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a

fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such

fine and imprisonment. "

The officer was attempting to arrest a paramedic for 21 O.S. § 540,

Obstruction of a Peace Officer, " Any person who willfully delays or

obstructs any public officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge

any duty of his office, is guilty of a misdemeanor. " Of course, the

question that comes to mind is what duty was the Trooper discharging

by trying to take aside the driver to berate him for his " failure to

yield " and " hand gesture " ? Was he trying to arrest him for 63 O.S. §

4221, Failure or Refusal to Comply with Lawful Order or Directive of

Water Safety Enforcement Officer (hidden under Ch. 72 'Boating

Safety'), " No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any

lawful order or directive of any law enforcement officer while in the

performance of his or her duty of enforcing the provisions of Title 63

or Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes. Failure to comply will

constitute a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed Two

Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00). " ? I don't see either of those

charges--they only apply to lawful orders.

None of the trooper's orders were lawful, as none of them complied

with 21 O.S. §, 650.3, as he was -willfully delaying- the performance

of emergency medical care and treatment. The paramedic was doing as I

would hope any 'crew leader' would do in any situation--he was

advocating for the person he supervised and attempting to defend

someone who wasn't doing anything wrong. In my opinion, the paramedic

showed amazing restraint, as his attitude and demeanor throughout the

whole incident were very professional given the situation. Even while

he was being arrested (or assaulted, depending on your view) he did

not strike back at the officer--even while being choked--and was

careful not to even -touch- the officer -while he was being choked-

(as you can see from the YouTube video.)

" Contempt of cop " isn't a crime. Getting hyped up on adrenalin running

at excessive speed en route to a scene then finding out the situation

is under control and needing someone to take it out on isn't a " duty

of a peace officer. " Choking someone isn't generally an acceptable

method for subduing someone during an arrest. I really don't get how

there is any blame to 'go around.'

Trooper should be relieved of duty at minimum. He should also

be charged with several misdemeanors, should be found guilty and

should receive probation (and also some counseling.) The other officer

who /turned off his camera/ at the scene should be officially

reprimanded. He should have also had a lot more sense then he did.

Don't get me wrong. I love cops. I work closely with them and get

along great. However, like every profession, there are good cops and

bad cops. There are even good cops who make bad decisions. It happens.

However, they are not above the law by virtue of their profession, and

sometimes that needs to be reinforced. In this case, it's appalling to

me that not only are Trooper and his attorney denying they did

anything wrong, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol seems to feel the

same. That's boneheaded and wrong.

Austin

(recently joined from the Paramedicine list)

> Unfortunately this was a bad situation for all parties involved. From

> experience, seeing the video i saw that both parties were at fault.

> first

> the officer should have been more professional and using better

> judgement in

> his manner of reaction. Second the paramedic shouldn't have left the

> patient

> because the driver could have just spoken with the officer exchange

> information and continued their journey to the hospital and then

> later find

> out what was the problem at the hospital. Everyone needs to remember

> that we

> are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already

> agitated

> becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and

> professionally

> talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his

> voice to

> be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

[Guest guest]

I have said it before and I have said it again...why would you NOT pull over if

a law enforcement officer pulled in behind with his lights on to make a traffic

stop?? Unless you were within eye sight of the hospital...what if he had seen a

safety issue with your unit or had information that you needed....

If we advocate not pulling over for a police officer when traveling

non-emergency with a patient...this type of incident could greatly increase.

Dudley

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the video. I am

curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on the issue of one

emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to another emergency vehicle.??

This will undoubtably have to resolve some issues about medical transport and

such.? I would say that an assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did

not immediately place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal

discussion at the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did

the driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital where

a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to only verbally

chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on the side of the road so

that an incident could take place?

?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

Danny L.

Owner/NREMT-P

PETSAR INC.

(Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

[Guest guest]

He pulled over, Dudley. He had a car in front of him that he had to

watch, and as soon as he cleared that car, he yielded the right-of-way.

The trooper had zero cause to issue a citation.

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

>

>

> I have said it before and I have said it again...why would you NOT

> pull over if a law enforcement officer pulled in behind with his

> lights on to make a traffic stop?? Unless you were within eye sight of

> the hospital...what if he had seen a safety issue with your unit or

> had information that you needed....

>

> If we advocate not pulling over for a police officer when traveling

> non-emergency with a patient...this type of incident could greatly

> increase.

>

> Dudley

>

> Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them

> over for 5-10 secon...

>

> So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

> video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

> the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

> another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve

> some issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an

> assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately

> place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at

> the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the

> driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital

> where a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to

> only verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on

> the side of the road so that an incident could take place?

> ?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

>

> Danny L.

> Owner/NREMT-P

> PETSAR INC.

> (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

>

>

[Guest guest]

He pulled over, Dudley. He had a car in front of him that he had to

watch, and as soon as he cleared that car, he yielded the right-of-way.

The trooper had zero cause to issue a citation.

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

>

>

> I have said it before and I have said it again...why would you NOT

> pull over if a law enforcement officer pulled in behind with his

> lights on to make a traffic stop?? Unless you were within eye sight of

> the hospital...what if he had seen a safety issue with your unit or

> had information that you needed....

>

> If we advocate not pulling over for a police officer when traveling

> non-emergency with a patient...this type of incident could greatly

> increase.

>

> Dudley

>

> Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them

> over for 5-10 secon...

>

> So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

> video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

> the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

> another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve

> some issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an

> assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately

> place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at

> the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the

> driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital

> where a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to

> only verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on

> the side of the road so that an incident could take place?

> ?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

>

> Danny L.

> Owner/NREMT-P

> PETSAR INC.

> (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

>

>

[Guest guest]

He pulled over, Dudley. He had a car in front of him that he had to

watch, and as soon as he cleared that car, he yielded the right-of-way.

The trooper had zero cause to issue a citation.

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

>

>

> I have said it before and I have said it again...why would you NOT

> pull over if a law enforcement officer pulled in behind with his

> lights on to make a traffic stop?? Unless you were within eye sight of

> the hospital...what if he had seen a safety issue with your unit or

> had information that you needed....

>

> If we advocate not pulling over for a police officer when traveling

> non-emergency with a patient...this type of incident could greatly

> increase.

>

> Dudley

>

> Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them

> over for 5-10 secon...

>

> So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

> video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

> the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

> another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve

> some issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an

> assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately

> place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at

> the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the

> driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital

> where a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to

> only verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on

> the side of the road so that an incident could take place?

> ?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

>

> Danny L.

> Owner/NREMT-P

> PETSAR INC.

> (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

>

>

[Guest guest]

For safety issues or information exchange, it seems like the phrase

" Interoperable communications " just screams in my head. The good old

days of inter-city channels, shared frequencies, etc. made

communications easier. (Of course, every person with a scanner knew what

you were saying so it wasn't " secure " communications by any means, but

those of us in the big white boxes could talk to the black & white cars

and the big red trucks without a lot of problems.)

In this case, so the trooper could talk to the EMS unit or the EMS unit

to advise the trooper they had a patient in the back before either was

prevented from succeeding in their tasks.

Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES

Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator

Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of THEDUDMAN@...

Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:35 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

for 5-10 secon...

I have said it before and I have said it again...why would you NOT pull

over if a law enforcement officer pulled in behind with his lights on to

make a traffic stop?? Unless you were within eye sight of the

hospital...what if he had seen a safety issue with your unit or had

information that you needed....

If we advocate not pulling over for a police officer when traveling

non-emergency with a patient...this type of incident could greatly

increase.

Dudley

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

for 5-10 secon...

So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve some

issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an assault

did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately place the

Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at the time the

trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the driver pull over

where he did and not take the patient to the hospital where a

conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to only

verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on the

side of the road so that an incident could take place?

?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

Danny L.

Owner/NREMT-P

PETSAR INC.

(Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

[Guest guest]

For safety issues or information exchange, it seems like the phrase

" Interoperable communications " just screams in my head. The good old

days of inter-city channels, shared frequencies, etc. made

communications easier. (Of course, every person with a scanner knew what

you were saying so it wasn't " secure " communications by any means, but

those of us in the big white boxes could talk to the black & white cars

and the big red trucks without a lot of problems.)

In this case, so the trooper could talk to the EMS unit or the EMS unit

to advise the trooper they had a patient in the back before either was

prevented from succeeding in their tasks.

Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES

Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator

Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of THEDUDMAN@...

Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:35 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

for 5-10 secon...

I have said it before and I have said it again...why would you NOT pull

over if a law enforcement officer pulled in behind with his lights on to

make a traffic stop?? Unless you were within eye sight of the

hospital...what if he had seen a safety issue with your unit or had

information that you needed....

If we advocate not pulling over for a police officer when traveling

non-emergency with a patient...this type of incident could greatly

increase.

Dudley

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

for 5-10 secon...

So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve some

issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an assault

did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately place the

Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at the time the

trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the driver pull over

where he did and not take the patient to the hospital where a

conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to only

verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on the

side of the road so that an incident could take place?

?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

Danny L.

Owner/NREMT-P

PETSAR INC.

(Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

[Guest guest]

For safety issues or information exchange, it seems like the phrase

" Interoperable communications " just screams in my head. The good old

days of inter-city channels, shared frequencies, etc. made

communications easier. (Of course, every person with a scanner knew what

you were saying so it wasn't " secure " communications by any means, but

those of us in the big white boxes could talk to the black & white cars

and the big red trucks without a lot of problems.)

In this case, so the trooper could talk to the EMS unit or the EMS unit

to advise the trooper they had a patient in the back before either was

prevented from succeeding in their tasks.

Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES

Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator

Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of THEDUDMAN@...

Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:35 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

for 5-10 secon...

I have said it before and I have said it again...why would you NOT pull

over if a law enforcement officer pulled in behind with his lights on to

make a traffic stop?? Unless you were within eye sight of the

hospital...what if he had seen a safety issue with your unit or had

information that you needed....

If we advocate not pulling over for a police officer when traveling

non-emergency with a patient...this type of incident could greatly

increase.

Dudley

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over

for 5-10 secon...

So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve some

issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an assault

did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately place the

Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at the time the

trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the driver pull over

where he did and not take the patient to the hospital where a

conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to only

verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on the

side of the road so that an incident could take place?

?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

Danny L.

Owner/NREMT-P

PETSAR INC.

(Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

[Guest guest]

No ...I was referring to the 2 or 3 posts that said once he passed and then

a few minutes later got in behind them to do a traffic stop that they should

have not stopped for him then but continued on to the hospital...and talked to

him there.

Dudley

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them

> over for 5-10 secon...

>

> So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

> video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

> the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

> another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve

> some issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an

> assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately

> place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at

> the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the

> driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital

> where a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to

> only verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on

> the side of the road so that an incident could take place?

> ?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

>

> Danny L.

> Owner/NREMT-P

> PETSAR INC.

> (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

>

>

[Guest guest]

No ...I was referring to the 2 or 3 posts that said once he passed and then

a few minutes later got in behind them to do a traffic stop that they should

have not stopped for him then but continued on to the hospital...and talked to

him there.

Dudley

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them

> over for 5-10 secon...

>

> So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

> video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

> the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

> another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve

> some issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an

> assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately

> place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at

> the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the

> driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital

> where a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to

> only verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on

> the side of the road so that an incident could take place?

> ?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

>

> Danny L.

> Owner/NREMT-P

> PETSAR INC.

> (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

>

>

[Guest guest]

No ...I was referring to the 2 or 3 posts that said once he passed and then

a few minutes later got in behind them to do a traffic stop that they should

have not stopped for him then but continued on to the hospital...and talked to

him there.

Dudley

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them

> over for 5-10 secon...

>

> So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the

> video. I am curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on

> the issue of one emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to

> another emergency vehicle.?? This will undoubtably have to resolve

> some issues about medical transport and such.? I would say that an

> assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did not immediately

> place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal discussion at

> the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did the

> driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital

> where a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to

> only verbally chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on

> the side of the road so that an incident could take place?

> ?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

>

> Danny L.

> Owner/NREMT-P

> PETSAR INC.

> (Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you 

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to 

arrest.

***How many of us have personally witnessed the result of resisting arrest?  The

outcome is never good.  Was the officer wrong?  I am of the opinion yes, but

resisting arrest is not going to make things any better*** 

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you 

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to 

arrest. The concept that he was somehow " obstructing justice " is 

entertaining--I didn't really witness a lot of 'justice' in that video.

The officer's pretext for the stop was a " failure to yield " violation, 

when the dash camera shows that the ambulance did yield in a timely 

fashion as soon as traffic conditions allowed. Was the driver supposed 

to 'yield' into the vehicle that was already in the shoulder, and 

force that vehicle off the road? You can attack the driver's 

situational awareness if you choose, but I would say that his 

awareness was where it should be--on the road in front of him and on 

the vehicle in front of (then on the shoulder beside) him.

The officer was well in excess of legal speed for the road, and the 

closure rate on the ambulance was very high. It's well known that at 

high speeds, you will regularly " overrun " your siren so you can not 

rely on audible devices, and the driver of the ambulance reacted well 

within a 'reasonable person's' reaction time to see and respond to the 

police officer, so is 'failure to yield' a reasonable charge? I don't 

think so. I could rail against the " guilty until proven innocent "  

nature of traffic violations for a bit, but in this case there is 

enough unimpeachable evidence to disprove that charge.

What I do see is a violation of 21 O.S. §, 650.3, Interference with 

Emergency Medical Technicians or Care Providers - Punishment,  " Every 

person who willfully delays, obstructs or in any way interferes with 

an emergency medical technician or other emergency medical care 

provider in the performance of or attempt to perform emergency medical 

care and treatment or in going to or returning from the scene of a 

medical emergency, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor 

punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six (6) 

months, or by a fine not to exceed Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or 

by both such fine and imprisonment. "

I also see several counts of 21 O.S. § 650.4 (a), Assault and Battery 

Upon Emergency Medical Technician or Care Provider, " Every person who, 

without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily 

harm, commits any assault, battery or assault and battery upon the 

person of an emergency medical care provider who is performing medical 

care duties, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 

imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a 

fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such 

fine and imprisonment. "

The officer was attempting to arrest a paramedic for 21 O.S. § 540, 

Obstruction of a Peace Officer, " Any person who willfully delays or 

obstructs any public officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge 

any duty of his office, is guilty of a misdemeanor. " Of course, the 

question that comes to mind is what duty was the Trooper discharging 

by trying to take aside the driver to berate him for his " failure to 

yield " and " hand gesture " ? Was he trying to arrest him for 63 O.S. § 

4221, Failure or Refusal to Comply with Lawful Order or Directive of 

Water Safety Enforcement Officer (hidden under Ch. 72 'Boating 

Safety'), " No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any 

lawful order or directive of any law enforcement officer while in the 

performance of his or her duty of enforcing the provisions of Title 63 

or Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes. Failure to comply will 

constitute a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed Two 

Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00). " ? I don't see either of those 

charges--they only apply to lawful orders.

None of the trooper's orders were lawful, as none of them complied 

with 21 O.S. §, 650.3, as he was -willfully delaying- the performance 

of emergency medical care and treatment. The paramedic was doing as I 

would hope any 'crew leader' would do in any situation--he was 

advocating for the person he supervised and attempting to defend 

someone who wasn't doing anything wrong. In my opinion, the paramedic 

showed amazing restraint, as his attitude and demeanor throughout the 

whole incident were very professional given the situation. Even while 

he was being arrested (or assaulted, depending on your view) he did 

not strike back at the officer--even while being choked--and was 

careful not to even -touch- the officer -while he was being choked- 

(as you can see from the YouTube video.)

" Contempt of cop " isn't a crime. Getting hyped up on adrenalin running 

at excessive speed en route to a scene then finding out the situation 

is under control and needing someone to take it out on isn't a " duty 

of a peace officer. " Choking someone isn't generally an acceptable 

method for subduing someone during an arrest. I really don't get how 

there is any blame to 'go around.'

Trooper should be relieved of duty at minimum. He should also 

be charged with several misdemeanors, should be found guilty and 

should receive probation (and also some counseling.) The other officer 

who /turned off his camera/ at the scene should be officially 

reprimanded. He should have also had a lot more sense then he did.

Don't get me wrong. I love cops. I work closely with them and get 

along great. However, like every profession, there are good cops and 

bad cops. There are even good cops who make bad decisions. It happens. 

However, they are not above the law by virtue of their profession, and 

sometimes that needs to be reinforced. In this case, it's appalling to 

me that not only are Trooper and his attorney denying they did 

anything wrong, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol seems to feel the 

same. That's boneheaded and wrong.

Austin

(recently joined from the Paramedicine list)

> Unfortunately this was a bad situation for all parties involved. From

> experience, seeing the video i saw that both parties were at fault. 

> first

> the officer should have been more professional and using better 

> judgement in

> his manner of reaction. Second the paramedic shouldn't have left the 

> patient

> because the driver could have just spoken with the officer exchange

> information and continued their journey to the hospital and then 

> later find

> out what was the problem at the hospital. Everyone needs to remember 

> that we

> are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already 

> agitated

> becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and 

> professionally

> talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his 

> voice to

> be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you 

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to 

arrest.

***How many of us have personally witnessed the result of resisting arrest?  The

outcome is never good.  Was the officer wrong?  I am of the opinion yes, but

resisting arrest is not going to make things any better*** 

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you 

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to 

arrest. The concept that he was somehow " obstructing justice " is 

entertaining--I didn't really witness a lot of 'justice' in that video.

The officer's pretext for the stop was a " failure to yield " violation, 

when the dash camera shows that the ambulance did yield in a timely 

fashion as soon as traffic conditions allowed. Was the driver supposed 

to 'yield' into the vehicle that was already in the shoulder, and 

force that vehicle off the road? You can attack the driver's 

situational awareness if you choose, but I would say that his 

awareness was where it should be--on the road in front of him and on 

the vehicle in front of (then on the shoulder beside) him.

The officer was well in excess of legal speed for the road, and the 

closure rate on the ambulance was very high. It's well known that at 

high speeds, you will regularly " overrun " your siren so you can not 

rely on audible devices, and the driver of the ambulance reacted well 

within a 'reasonable person's' reaction time to see and respond to the 

police officer, so is 'failure to yield' a reasonable charge? I don't 

think so. I could rail against the " guilty until proven innocent "  

nature of traffic violations for a bit, but in this case there is 

enough unimpeachable evidence to disprove that charge.

What I do see is a violation of 21 O.S. §, 650.3, Interference with 

Emergency Medical Technicians or Care Providers - Punishment,  " Every 

person who willfully delays, obstructs or in any way interferes with 

an emergency medical technician or other emergency medical care 

provider in the performance of or attempt to perform emergency medical 

care and treatment or in going to or returning from the scene of a 

medical emergency, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor 

punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six (6) 

months, or by a fine not to exceed Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or 

by both such fine and imprisonment. "

I also see several counts of 21 O.S. § 650.4 (a), Assault and Battery 

Upon Emergency Medical Technician or Care Provider, " Every person who, 

without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily 

harm, commits any assault, battery or assault and battery upon the 

person of an emergency medical care provider who is performing medical 

care duties, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 

imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a 

fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such 

fine and imprisonment. "

The officer was attempting to arrest a paramedic for 21 O.S. § 540, 

Obstruction of a Peace Officer, " Any person who willfully delays or 

obstructs any public officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge 

any duty of his office, is guilty of a misdemeanor. " Of course, the 

question that comes to mind is what duty was the Trooper discharging 

by trying to take aside the driver to berate him for his " failure to 

yield " and " hand gesture " ? Was he trying to arrest him for 63 O.S. § 

4221, Failure or Refusal to Comply with Lawful Order or Directive of 

Water Safety Enforcement Officer (hidden under Ch. 72 'Boating 

Safety'), " No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any 

lawful order or directive of any law enforcement officer while in the 

performance of his or her duty of enforcing the provisions of Title 63 

or Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes. Failure to comply will 

constitute a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed Two 

Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00). " ? I don't see either of those 

charges--they only apply to lawful orders.

None of the trooper's orders were lawful, as none of them complied 

with 21 O.S. §, 650.3, as he was -willfully delaying- the performance 

of emergency medical care and treatment. The paramedic was doing as I 

would hope any 'crew leader' would do in any situation--he was 

advocating for the person he supervised and attempting to defend 

someone who wasn't doing anything wrong. In my opinion, the paramedic 

showed amazing restraint, as his attitude and demeanor throughout the 

whole incident were very professional given the situation. Even while 

he was being arrested (or assaulted, depending on your view) he did 

not strike back at the officer--even while being choked--and was 

careful not to even -touch- the officer -while he was being choked- 

(as you can see from the YouTube video.)

" Contempt of cop " isn't a crime. Getting hyped up on adrenalin running 

at excessive speed en route to a scene then finding out the situation 

is under control and needing someone to take it out on isn't a " duty 

of a peace officer. " Choking someone isn't generally an acceptable 

method for subduing someone during an arrest. I really don't get how 

there is any blame to 'go around.'

Trooper should be relieved of duty at minimum. He should also 

be charged with several misdemeanors, should be found guilty and 

should receive probation (and also some counseling.) The other officer 

who /turned off his camera/ at the scene should be officially 

reprimanded. He should have also had a lot more sense then he did.

Don't get me wrong. I love cops. I work closely with them and get 

along great. However, like every profession, there are good cops and 

bad cops. There are even good cops who make bad decisions. It happens. 

However, they are not above the law by virtue of their profession, and 

sometimes that needs to be reinforced. In this case, it's appalling to 

me that not only are Trooper and his attorney denying they did 

anything wrong, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol seems to feel the 

same. That's boneheaded and wrong.

Austin

(recently joined from the Paramedicine list)

> Unfortunately this was a bad situation for all parties involved. From

> experience, seeing the video i saw that both parties were at fault. 

> first

> the officer should have been more professional and using better 

> judgement in

> his manner of reaction. Second the paramedic shouldn't have left the 

> patient

> because the driver could have just spoken with the officer exchange

> information and continued their journey to the hospital and then 

> later find

> out what was the problem at the hospital. Everyone needs to remember 

> that we

> are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already 

> agitated

> becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and 

> professionally

> talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his 

> voice to

> be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you 

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to 

arrest.

***How many of us have personally witnessed the result of resisting arrest?  The

outcome is never good.  Was the officer wrong?  I am of the opinion yes, but

resisting arrest is not going to make things any better*** 

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

I'm still confused as to how the paramedic is " at fault, " unless you 

are somehow of the camp that feels he should have submitted himself to 

arrest. The concept that he was somehow " obstructing justice " is 

entertaining--I didn't really witness a lot of 'justice' in that video.

The officer's pretext for the stop was a " failure to yield " violation, 

when the dash camera shows that the ambulance did yield in a timely 

fashion as soon as traffic conditions allowed. Was the driver supposed 

to 'yield' into the vehicle that was already in the shoulder, and 

force that vehicle off the road? You can attack the driver's 

situational awareness if you choose, but I would say that his 

awareness was where it should be--on the road in front of him and on 

the vehicle in front of (then on the shoulder beside) him.

The officer was well in excess of legal speed for the road, and the 

closure rate on the ambulance was very high. It's well known that at 

high speeds, you will regularly " overrun " your siren so you can not 

rely on audible devices, and the driver of the ambulance reacted well 

within a 'reasonable person's' reaction time to see and respond to the 

police officer, so is 'failure to yield' a reasonable charge? I don't 

think so. I could rail against the " guilty until proven innocent "  

nature of traffic violations for a bit, but in this case there is 

enough unimpeachable evidence to disprove that charge.

What I do see is a violation of 21 O.S. §, 650.3, Interference with 

Emergency Medical Technicians or Care Providers - Punishment,  " Every 

person who willfully delays, obstructs or in any way interferes with 

an emergency medical technician or other emergency medical care 

provider in the performance of or attempt to perform emergency medical 

care and treatment or in going to or returning from the scene of a 

medical emergency, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor 

punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six (6) 

months, or by a fine not to exceed Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or 

by both such fine and imprisonment. "

I also see several counts of 21 O.S. § 650.4 (a), Assault and Battery 

Upon Emergency Medical Technician or Care Provider, " Every person who, 

without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily 

harm, commits any assault, battery or assault and battery upon the 

person of an emergency medical care provider who is performing medical 

care duties, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 

imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a 

fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such 

fine and imprisonment. "

The officer was attempting to arrest a paramedic for 21 O.S. § 540, 

Obstruction of a Peace Officer, " Any person who willfully delays or 

obstructs any public officer in the discharge or attempt to discharge 

any duty of his office, is guilty of a misdemeanor. " Of course, the 

question that comes to mind is what duty was the Trooper discharging 

by trying to take aside the driver to berate him for his " failure to 

yield " and " hand gesture " ? Was he trying to arrest him for 63 O.S. § 

4221, Failure or Refusal to Comply with Lawful Order or Directive of 

Water Safety Enforcement Officer (hidden under Ch. 72 'Boating 

Safety'), " No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any 

lawful order or directive of any law enforcement officer while in the 

performance of his or her duty of enforcing the provisions of Title 63 

or Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes. Failure to comply will 

constitute a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed Two 

Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00). " ? I don't see either of those 

charges--they only apply to lawful orders.

None of the trooper's orders were lawful, as none of them complied 

with 21 O.S. §, 650.3, as he was -willfully delaying- the performance 

of emergency medical care and treatment. The paramedic was doing as I 

would hope any 'crew leader' would do in any situation--he was 

advocating for the person he supervised and attempting to defend 

someone who wasn't doing anything wrong. In my opinion, the paramedic 

showed amazing restraint, as his attitude and demeanor throughout the 

whole incident were very professional given the situation. Even while 

he was being arrested (or assaulted, depending on your view) he did 

not strike back at the officer--even while being choked--and was 

careful not to even -touch- the officer -while he was being choked- 

(as you can see from the YouTube video.)

" Contempt of cop " isn't a crime. Getting hyped up on adrenalin running 

at excessive speed en route to a scene then finding out the situation 

is under control and needing someone to take it out on isn't a " duty 

of a peace officer. " Choking someone isn't generally an acceptable 

method for subduing someone during an arrest. I really don't get how 

there is any blame to 'go around.'

Trooper should be relieved of duty at minimum. He should also 

be charged with several misdemeanors, should be found guilty and 

should receive probation (and also some counseling.) The other officer 

who /turned off his camera/ at the scene should be officially 

reprimanded. He should have also had a lot more sense then he did.

Don't get me wrong. I love cops. I work closely with them and get 

along great. However, like every profession, there are good cops and 

bad cops. There are even good cops who make bad decisions. It happens. 

However, they are not above the law by virtue of their profession, and 

sometimes that needs to be reinforced. In this case, it's appalling to 

me that not only are Trooper and his attorney denying they did 

anything wrong, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol seems to feel the 

same. That's boneheaded and wrong.

Austin

(recently joined from the Paramedicine list)

> Unfortunately this was a bad situation for all parties involved. From

> experience, seeing the video i saw that both parties were at fault. 

> first

> the officer should have been more professional and using better 

> judgement in

> his manner of reaction. Second the paramedic shouldn't have left the 

> patient

> because the driver could have just spoken with the officer exchange

> information and continued their journey to the hospital and then 

> later find

> out what was the problem at the hospital. Everyone needs to remember 

> that we

> are taught to never raise our voices to someone who is already 

> agitated

> becuase it just makes things worse, we need to calmly and 

> professionally

> talk to someone in a normal tone so that other person can lower his 

> voice to

> be able to hear the other person in theory.

>

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Officer should have first asked if there was a patient in the back.  If there

was then take care of the situation at the ER, not on the side of the road and

further humiliate your agency.

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the video. I am

curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on the issue of one

emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to another emergency vehicle.??

This will undoubtably have to resolve some issues about medical transport and

such.? I would say that an assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did

not immediately place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal

discussion at the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did

the driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital where

a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to only verbally

chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on the side of the road so

that an incident could take place?

?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

Danny L.

Owner/NREMT-P

PETSAR INC.

(Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

[Guest guest]

Officer should have first asked if there was a patient in the back.  If there

was then take care of the situation at the ER, not on the side of the road and

further humiliate your agency.

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the video. I am

curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on the issue of one

emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to another emergency vehicle.??

This will undoubtably have to resolve some issues about medical transport and

such.? I would say that an assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did

not immediately place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal

discussion at the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did

the driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital where

a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to only verbally

chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on the side of the road so

that an incident could take place?

?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

Danny L.

Owner/NREMT-P

PETSAR INC.

(Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

[Guest guest]

Officer should have first asked if there was a patient in the back.  If there

was then take care of the situation at the ER, not on the side of the road and

further humiliate your agency.

Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

So, did the paramedic get arrested? I was not clear looking at the video. I am

curious as to what vehicle laws in Oklahoma have to say on the issue of one

emergeny vehicle failing to give right of way to another emergency vehicle.??

This will undoubtably have to resolve some issues about medical transport and

such.? I would say that an assault did occur on the Paramedic. The trooper did

not immediately place the Paramedic under arrest. The was only a verbal

discussion at the time the trooper first laid hands on the Paramedic.? Why did

the driver pull over where he did and not take the patient to the hospital where

a conversation could take place?? If the trooper were going to only verbally

chastise the driver of the ambulance why did it stop on the side of the road so

that an incident could take place?

?Bad judgement on all parties.? NO good outcome that I can see.

Danny L.

Owner/NREMT-P

PETSAR INC.

(Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response)

[Guest guest]

The deeper question that should be addressed, and I hope it is by OK DPS,

is what's going on with this trooper emotionally. It's clear that he " lost

it " over relatively nothing.

Is he emotionally capable of wearing a gun and a badge and executing his

duties in a professional manner? Is he suffering from PTSD as a result of

his Iraq experience? IS HE SAFE TO LET OUT ON THE STREETS WITH A GUN?

The escalation began with him and his attitude. He was clearly out of

control. That's scary. Particularly over such a trivial matter. The video

clearly shows him driving at a very high rate of speed when he approached

the ambulance. It also clearly shows that he was not delayed more than 10

seconds because the ambulance was in the way. Then, after the " emergency "

he was going to turned out to be a nothing, his anger even escalated more.

That's indicative of an anger management problem big time.

If the State of Oklahoma's DPS is to have any credibility at all, it must

deal with these questions before this guy goes nuts and does something much

worse.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

GG

**************

Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2\

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[Guest guest]

The deeper question that should be addressed, and I hope it is by OK DPS,

is what's going on with this trooper emotionally. It's clear that he " lost

it " over relatively nothing.

Is he emotionally capable of wearing a gun and a badge and executing his

duties in a professional manner? Is he suffering from PTSD as a result of

his Iraq experience? IS HE SAFE TO LET OUT ON THE STREETS WITH A GUN?

The escalation began with him and his attitude. He was clearly out of

control. That's scary. Particularly over such a trivial matter. The video

clearly shows him driving at a very high rate of speed when he approached

the ambulance. It also clearly shows that he was not delayed more than 10

seconds because the ambulance was in the way. Then, after the " emergency "

he was going to turned out to be a nothing, his anger even escalated more.

That's indicative of an anger management problem big time.

If the State of Oklahoma's DPS is to have any credibility at all, it must

deal with these questions before this guy goes nuts and does something much

worse.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

GG

**************

Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2\

F%

2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh)

[Guest guest]

The deeper question that should be addressed, and I hope it is by OK DPS,

is what's going on with this trooper emotionally. It's clear that he " lost

it " over relatively nothing.

Is he emotionally capable of wearing a gun and a badge and executing his

duties in a professional manner? Is he suffering from PTSD as a result of

his Iraq experience? IS HE SAFE TO LET OUT ON THE STREETS WITH A GUN?

The escalation began with him and his attitude. He was clearly out of

control. That's scary. Particularly over such a trivial matter. The video

clearly shows him driving at a very high rate of speed when he approached

the ambulance. It also clearly shows that he was not delayed more than 10

seconds because the ambulance was in the way. Then, after the " emergency "

he was going to turned out to be a nothing, his anger even escalated more.

That's indicative of an anger management problem big time.

If the State of Oklahoma's DPS is to have any credibility at all, it must

deal with these questions before this guy goes nuts and does something much

worse.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

GG

**************

Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2\

F%

2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh)

[Guest guest]

I would like add to Gene's postion by throwing this out: Why was the wife in the

car? Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I cannot think of a reason why

he would be on patrol with his wife? I know that my wife would add to the

anxiety of any situation, and I would never wqant to have her in the car with me

when I might be ordered into harms way.

This guy is/was not thinking that day. It could be PTSD as Gene sugggested, or

just a case of the plain ol' dumbass, whatever the case is, I really agree that

the real issue is his readiness for duty.

L. Gaines M.Ed. A.T., C./L.A.T. NREMT-P

Head Athletic Trainer

Alabama A & M University

c:

jlgatc@...

To: texasems-l

From: wegandy1938@...

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:04:49 -0400

Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

The deeper question that should be addressed, and I hope it is by OK DPS,

is what's going on with this trooper emotionally. It's clear that he " lost

it " over relatively nothing.

Is he emotionally capable of wearing a gun and a badge and executing his

duties in a professional manner? Is he suffering from PTSD as a result of

his Iraq experience? IS HE SAFE TO LET OUT ON THE STREETS WITH A GUN?

The escalation began with him and his attitude. He was clearly out of

control. That's scary. Particularly over such a trivial matter. The video

clearly shows him driving at a very high rate of speed when he approached

the ambulance. It also clearly shows that he was not delayed more than 10

seconds because the ambulance was in the way. Then, after the " emergency "

he was going to turned out to be a nothing, his anger even escalated more.

That's indicative of an anger management problem big time.

If the State of Oklahoma's DPS is to have any credibility at all, it must

deal with these questions before this guy goes nuts and does something much

worse.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

GG

**************

Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2\

F%

2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh)

[Guest guest]

I would like add to Gene's postion by throwing this out: Why was the wife in the

car? Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I cannot think of a reason why

he would be on patrol with his wife? I know that my wife would add to the

anxiety of any situation, and I would never wqant to have her in the car with me

when I might be ordered into harms way.

This guy is/was not thinking that day. It could be PTSD as Gene sugggested, or

just a case of the plain ol' dumbass, whatever the case is, I really agree that

the real issue is his readiness for duty.

L. Gaines M.Ed. A.T., C./L.A.T. NREMT-P

Head Athletic Trainer

Alabama A & M University

c:

jlgatc@...

To: texasems-l

From: wegandy1938@...

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:04:49 -0400

Subject: Re: OK Trooper Dash Cam Released Pulled them over for 5-10

secon...

The deeper question that should be addressed, and I hope it is by OK DPS,

is what's going on with this trooper emotionally. It's clear that he " lost

it " over relatively nothing.

Is he emotionally capable of wearing a gun and a badge and executing his

duties in a professional manner? Is he suffering from PTSD as a result of

his Iraq experience? IS HE SAFE TO LET OUT ON THE STREETS WITH A GUN?

The escalation began with him and his attitude. He was clearly out of

control. That's scary. Particularly over such a trivial matter. The video

clearly shows him driving at a very high rate of speed when he approached

the ambulance. It also clearly shows that he was not delayed more than 10

seconds because the ambulance was in the way. Then, after the " emergency "

he was going to turned out to be a nothing, his anger even escalated more.

That's indicative of an anger management problem big time.

If the State of Oklahoma's DPS is to have any credibility at all, it must

deal with these questions before this guy goes nuts and does something much

worse.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

GG

**************

Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2\

F%

2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh)