Guest guest Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley Hi, Kelley- I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. What type of doctor is this? Unless the surgeon who did your TT is an endocrinologist, you should be seeing an endo from now on, NOT a surgeon. This is a good time to get copies of your pathology report for your records, too. Cheers, Alisa Currently - TSH 0.09, 140mcg Levoxyl 2/15/2002: Nodule found 2/27/2002: FNA 3/4/2002: Hysterectomy/oopherectomy-possible ovarian cancer - BENIGN!! 4/9/2002: TT - Stage 2 pap 2.5 x 2 x 1.6 cm nodule, dx Hashimotos 5/28/2002: 100 mCi RAI 12/16/02: WBS (5 mCi): clean scan - no thyroid tissue in body!!! Age: 49 -- Location: near Seattle WA --- Check out my posts: Radioactive Girl - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/19472 My LID - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15872 My RAI - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15873 LID stuff - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/25430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Kelley, It depends on how big the nodule was? One can have a large goiter but only a tiny encapsulated malignancy within it. If the cancer was less than a centimeter further treatment may not be necessary. But if the whole ping pong ball was malignant....you better find another doctor. Get a copy of your pathology report from medical records and let us know what it says. Gail dx: 1968, TT, pap. & foll. well differentiated w/hurthle cell, RAI, rad.neck dissection,lung surgery, hashimoto, tg antibody 575, iodine resistant,existing thyca nodules in lungs. Last surgery 1972 > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 He's an otorhinolaryngologist, head, neck, maxiofacial surgeon. I'm seeing an endo next week,(I had to with 4 months for the appointment) but my surgery was a year ago. He seems very certain he got everything. -Kelley Re: another question > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley Hi, Kelley- I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. What type of doctor is this? Unless the surgeon who did your TT is an endocrinologist, you should be seeing an endo from now on, NOT a surgeon. This is a good time to get copies of your pathology report for your records, too. Cheers, Alisa Currently - TSH 0.09, 140mcg Levoxyl 2/15/2002: Nodule found 2/27/2002: FNA 3/4/2002: Hysterectomy/oopherectomy-possible ovarian cancer - BENIGN!! 4/9/2002: TT - Stage 2 pap 2.5 x 2 x 1.6 cm nodule, dx Hashimotos 5/28/2002: 100 mCi RAI 12/16/02: WBS (5 mCi): clean scan - no thyroid tissue in body!!! Age: 49 -- Location: near Seattle WA --- Check out my posts: Radioactive Girl - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/19472 My LID - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15872 My RAI - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15873 LID stuff - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/25430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Re: another question > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley Hi, Kelley- I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. What type of doctor is this? Unless the surgeon who did your TT is an endocrinologist, you should be seeing an endo from now on, NOT a surgeon. This is a good time to get copies of your pathology report for your records, too. Cheers, Alisa Currently - TSH 0.09, 140mcg Levoxyl 2/15/2002: Nodule found 2/27/2002: FNA 3/4/2002: Hysterectomy/oopherectomy-possible ovarian cancer - BENIGN!! 4/9/2002: TT - Stage 2 pap 2.5 x 2 x 1.6 cm nodule, dx Hashimotos 5/28/2002: 100 mCi RAI 12/16/02: WBS (5 mCi): clean scan - no thyroid tissue in body!!! Age: 49 -- Location: near Seattle WA --- Check out my posts: Radioactive Girl - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/19472 My LID - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15872 My RAI - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15873 LID stuff - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/25430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Re: another question > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley Hi, Kelley- I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. What type of doctor is this? Unless the surgeon who did your TT is an endocrinologist, you should be seeing an endo from now on, NOT a surgeon. This is a good time to get copies of your pathology report for your records, too. Cheers, Alisa Currently - TSH 0.09, 140mcg Levoxyl 2/15/2002: Nodule found 2/27/2002: FNA 3/4/2002: Hysterectomy/oopherectomy-possible ovarian cancer - BENIGN!! 4/9/2002: TT - Stage 2 pap 2.5 x 2 x 1.6 cm nodule, dx Hashimotos 5/28/2002: 100 mCi RAI 12/16/02: WBS (5 mCi): clean scan - no thyroid tissue in body!!! Age: 49 -- Location: near Seattle WA --- Check out my posts: Radioactive Girl - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/19472 My LID - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15872 My RAI - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15873 LID stuff - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/25430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Re: another question > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley Hi, Kelley- I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. What type of doctor is this? Unless the surgeon who did your TT is an endocrinologist, you should be seeing an endo from now on, NOT a surgeon. This is a good time to get copies of your pathology report for your records, too. Cheers, Alisa Currently - TSH 0.09, 140mcg Levoxyl 2/15/2002: Nodule found 2/27/2002: FNA 3/4/2002: Hysterectomy/oopherectomy-possible ovarian cancer - BENIGN!! 4/9/2002: TT - Stage 2 pap 2.5 x 2 x 1.6 cm nodule, dx Hashimotos 5/28/2002: 100 mCi RAI 12/16/02: WBS (5 mCi): clean scan - no thyroid tissue in body!!! Age: 49 -- Location: near Seattle WA --- Check out my posts: Radioactive Girl - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/19472 My LID - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15872 My RAI - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15873 LID stuff - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/25430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Kelley, While your surgeon clearly appears to have the credentials, he is not the one to manage your continuing care. Nor should he be so clairvoyant as to tell you he got everything; only a scan can tell you that! The endo runs the follow up care. Gail dx: 1968, TT, pap. & foll. well differentiated w/hurthle cell, RAI, rad.neck dissection,lung surgery, hashimoto, tg antibody 575, iodine resistant,existing thyca nodules in lungs. Last surgery 1972 > He's an otorhinolaryngologist, head, neck, maxiofacial surgeon. I'm seeing an endo next week,(I had to with 4 months for the appointment) but my surgery was a year ago. He seems very certain he got everything. -Kelley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 I'm sure he thinks so -- but you can't always tell by looking. That's why we have things like RAI & scans! It's very rare, I think, to have NO remnants AT ALL. I wonder what protocol he's been following? Anyway, a surgeon should be staying current on surgery, not trying to double in endocrinology (not nowadays, anyway) -- and a rather specialized branch of it at that (IMO). bj Re: another question > > > > > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley > > Hi, Kelley- > > I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't > imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI > treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait > followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any > remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that > IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. > .... > Alisa > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 I think he based it on the fact that it was completely encapsulated within my thyroid and had no blood supplies going to or from it. Also, the fluid center was benign; only the outer part of the tumor was malignant. It made sense to me at the time, but after reading all the things you all have said, I'm now having doubts. -Kelley Re: another question > > > > > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley > > Hi, Kelley- > > I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't > imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI > treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait > followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any > remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that > IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. > .... > Alisa > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2003 Report Share Posted July 14, 2003 Kelley, Just thought I'd chime in to agree that you need to see an endocrinologist to discuss your treatment plan. Surgeons are just not equipped to care for thyca patients. My surgeon (who did a fine job on my TT) couldn't really even articulate to me how I would be effected by not haveing my thyroid and how that would effect my life in the month until I saw my endocrinologist. I was happy that I didn't listen to him and got into see my endo within two weeks of my TT so I could find out what was really going on! dee - 38 Austin, TX TT & dx pap thyca 7/02 RAI (29.8mCi) 8/02 6/11/03 TSH >150 RAI 7/03 (100 mCi this time around) WBS scheduled for 7/18 Started back on meds 7/11 (synthroid .200mg) YAHOO!!! > > when my doctor removed my thryoid, he told me he wouldn't take me off > > my meds and do a whole body scan for two years. It was a stage one > > papillary carcinoma, but it was the size of a ping pong ball. HE said > > this was consistent with the new protocal, but it seems rather > > conservative when I read your comments here on the post. SHould he be > > doing something sooner? or is just surgery enough? -Kelley > > Hi, Kelley- > > I would say that something should DEFINITELY be done sooner. I can't > imagine what " new protocol " he is talking about that has no RAI > treatment for a mass the size of a ping pong ball, and a 2 year wait > followed by a scan only. The point of the RAI is to kill off any > remaining thyroid tissue, and waiting 2 years (so that anything that > IS there could continue to grow) is not what I call conservative. > > What type of doctor is this? Unless the surgeon who did your TT is an > endocrinologist, you should be seeing an endo from now on, NOT a > surgeon. > > This is a good time to get copies of your pathology report for your > records, too. > > Cheers, > Alisa > > Currently - TSH 0.09, 140mcg Levoxyl > 2/15/2002: Nodule found 2/27/2002: FNA > 3/4/2002: Hysterectomy/oopherectomy-possible ovarian cancer - BENIGN!! > 4/9/2002: TT - Stage 2 pap 2.5 x 2 x 1.6 cm nodule, dx Hashimotos > 5/28/2002: 100 mCi RAI > 12/16/02: WBS (5 mCi): clean scan - no thyroid tissue in body!!! > Age: 49 -- Location: near Seattle WA --- Check out my posts: > Radioactive Girl - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/19472 > My LID - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15872 > My RAI - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/15873 > LID stuff - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thyca/message/25430 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Judy wrote: I have a quick, but not necessarily easy question that I don't yethave an answer for.Once thyroid hormone is Free T4 and Free T3 in our body, does it makeany difference where it came from? ____________________________________________________________ HEY Judy: ...you ask some questions that I asked when I started venturing into "combo" area. Its not easy to find the answers and while there are some clues around, it gets to be something one starts to get a handle on over time. I am sure I don't have the complete picture yet...the puzzle peices are coming slowly. DO you mean whether its converted or not? Is Free T4 from Armour bioidentical to Free T4 from synthetic, andlikewise with the Free T3. Biodentical? Hmmmmnnn ? It kind of depends on how you are using the word...but I think I know what you are getting at. The strength is different (some people find that the t4 in Armour is much weaker than the synthetic) but fillers can make it act differently in the body....depending on various factors. Judy...I think many people, who go from all synthetic to armour see a drop in the t4 level that can (not only show in the bloods, but in the way they feel) and that can be quite distrubing. I have experienced this myself and I blelive you did as well...AND you also experienced A spike in the t3 that may have been (hyper) and uncomfortable. I, too have had this issue. You will not find a lot of folks in the NTG telling you this..(But its hard to ignore the bloods people post while doing the switch and there is a pattern making one think this is quite a frequent occurence) and must be addressed for those who can't take all Armour with a thyroid dose change solution. If you go to Dommisse in the files section at the NTG you will see how he arrives at his explaination on this...and you will see this repeated at Gail;s thyroid tips, also posted in the files at NTG. Is the Free T3 generated from synthetic T4equally as active as Free T3 generated from Armour? This is an "unknowable" quotient I'm afraid. MANY times I have seen a low conversion rate from the synthetic t4, which can be problematic and I have seen the what looks like a gentler T3 coming from Armour than might be present in a synthetic t3...but the conversion from the t4...may not be converted enough to get down the cascade properly (because its so highly dependent on an enzymatic process where you don't have THAT same challenge with Armour in equal fashion most likely). The other thing one must keep in mind (as you know) is the ratio difference with the Armour and humans. NOT everyone encounters this as a problem, and can take ALL Armour...others need to take extra T4 with their Armour to correct the ratio. So bottom line...ratio is wrong (not enough t4) AND its weaker than the synthetic...NO wonder the t4 drops when the person switches from synthetic to Armour... (that is what I'm seeing).. And think you are trying to acertain. There is actually quite a bit more to this whole question...but these are some points to start with. ~E:) TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Judy wrote: I have a quick, but not necessarily easy question that I don't yethave an answer for.Once thyroid hormone is Free T4 and Free T3 in our body, does it makeany difference where it came from? ____________________________________________________________ HEY Judy: ...you ask some questions that I asked when I started venturing into "combo" area. Its not easy to find the answers and while there are some clues around, it gets to be something one starts to get a handle on over time. I am sure I don't have the complete picture yet...the puzzle peices are coming slowly. DO you mean whether its converted or not? Is Free T4 from Armour bioidentical to Free T4 from synthetic, andlikewise with the Free T3. Biodentical? Hmmmmnnn ? It kind of depends on how you are using the word...but I think I know what you are getting at. The strength is different (some people find that the t4 in Armour is much weaker than the synthetic) but fillers can make it act differently in the body....depending on various factors. Judy...I think many people, who go from all synthetic to armour see a drop in the t4 level that can (not only show in the bloods, but in the way they feel) and that can be quite distrubing. I have experienced this myself and I blelive you did as well...AND you also experienced A spike in the t3 that may have been (hyper) and uncomfortable. I, too have had this issue. You will not find a lot of folks in the NTG telling you this..(But its hard to ignore the bloods people post while doing the switch and there is a pattern making one think this is quite a frequent occurence) and must be addressed for those who can't take all Armour with a thyroid dose change solution. If you go to Dommisse in the files section at the NTG you will see how he arrives at his explaination on this...and you will see this repeated at Gail;s thyroid tips, also posted in the files at NTG. Is the Free T3 generated from synthetic T4equally as active as Free T3 generated from Armour? This is an "unknowable" quotient I'm afraid. MANY times I have seen a low conversion rate from the synthetic t4, which can be problematic and I have seen the what looks like a gentler T3 coming from Armour than might be present in a synthetic t3...but the conversion from the t4...may not be converted enough to get down the cascade properly (because its so highly dependent on an enzymatic process where you don't have THAT same challenge with Armour in equal fashion most likely). The other thing one must keep in mind (as you know) is the ratio difference with the Armour and humans. NOT everyone encounters this as a problem, and can take ALL Armour...others need to take extra T4 with their Armour to correct the ratio. So bottom line...ratio is wrong (not enough t4) AND its weaker than the synthetic...NO wonder the t4 drops when the person switches from synthetic to Armour... (that is what I'm seeing).. And think you are trying to acertain. There is actually quite a bit more to this whole question...but these are some points to start with. ~E:) TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Judy wrote: I have a quick, but not necessarily easy question that I don't yethave an answer for.Once thyroid hormone is Free T4 and Free T3 in our body, does it makeany difference where it came from? ____________________________________________________________ HEY Judy: ...you ask some questions that I asked when I started venturing into "combo" area. Its not easy to find the answers and while there are some clues around, it gets to be something one starts to get a handle on over time. I am sure I don't have the complete picture yet...the puzzle peices are coming slowly. DO you mean whether its converted or not? Is Free T4 from Armour bioidentical to Free T4 from synthetic, andlikewise with the Free T3. Biodentical? Hmmmmnnn ? It kind of depends on how you are using the word...but I think I know what you are getting at. The strength is different (some people find that the t4 in Armour is much weaker than the synthetic) but fillers can make it act differently in the body....depending on various factors. Judy...I think many people, who go from all synthetic to armour see a drop in the t4 level that can (not only show in the bloods, but in the way they feel) and that can be quite distrubing. I have experienced this myself and I blelive you did as well...AND you also experienced A spike in the t3 that may have been (hyper) and uncomfortable. I, too have had this issue. You will not find a lot of folks in the NTG telling you this..(But its hard to ignore the bloods people post while doing the switch and there is a pattern making one think this is quite a frequent occurence) and must be addressed for those who can't take all Armour with a thyroid dose change solution. If you go to Dommisse in the files section at the NTG you will see how he arrives at his explaination on this...and you will see this repeated at Gail;s thyroid tips, also posted in the files at NTG. Is the Free T3 generated from synthetic T4equally as active as Free T3 generated from Armour? This is an "unknowable" quotient I'm afraid. MANY times I have seen a low conversion rate from the synthetic t4, which can be problematic and I have seen the what looks like a gentler T3 coming from Armour than might be present in a synthetic t3...but the conversion from the t4...may not be converted enough to get down the cascade properly (because its so highly dependent on an enzymatic process where you don't have THAT same challenge with Armour in equal fashion most likely). The other thing one must keep in mind (as you know) is the ratio difference with the Armour and humans. NOT everyone encounters this as a problem, and can take ALL Armour...others need to take extra T4 with their Armour to correct the ratio. So bottom line...ratio is wrong (not enough t4) AND its weaker than the synthetic...NO wonder the t4 drops when the person switches from synthetic to Armour... (that is what I'm seeing).. And think you are trying to acertain. There is actually quite a bit more to this whole question...but these are some points to start with. ~E:) TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Thanks E, there is a lot of good information in your post and I've come away with a few new tidbits. Are you using a combination now that is working for you and if so please tell me what it is. I know my dosing would be different, but I will be able to see the ratio. You've touched on a lot of things and I'm probably not asking the question correctly, so I'll give it another shot and see if it triggers anything. BTW, bioidentical was just my way of saying that it would have the same chemistry and activity. I can understand that the T4s going in are different and that Armour also adds T3. It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that all enter the body in the bound state. So my body will take in the T4 and T3 and also presumably convert some of the T4 to T3. At some point, and I have not found out what actually triggers it or what order it happens in, my body will convert some of what is available to Free T3 and Free T4. Do you know the order that all of these things are converted in? It doesn't really matter, but might help me figure things out. So what I know is that FT3 and FT4 are the hormones that are active in our bodies and ready to enter the tissues deciding on yet another whack of factors. So just for a moment, lets forget about rates and things and just assume that a given person has x amount of Frees in their bloodstream. In theory, since we didn't actually consume any Frees at all, would it be safe to assume that all of the FreeT3 and FreeT4 that is floating around in our bloodstream has the same chemical composition and potential use whether it started as synthetic T4 or Armour T4 and/or T3? That's my real question. I guess what I really want to know is if the Free T3 that is finally generated from Synthetic T4 still somehow inferior to the Free T3 that would be generated by Armour's T4 or direct T3. I guess I'm basically trying to rationalize that if I can get fabulous labs from the synthetic that I will feel as well as if I had the same fabulous labs on Armour. I'm back on full Eltroxin for now at 125mcg. I'm going to try 100mcg and 1/4 grain Armour to see if that makes a difference. The truly maddening thing is that I felt terrific for the first few days on Armour, better than in years, but then it all turned south rather quickly. I'm trying to be a believer and so I haven't given up. I've stopped asking combo questions on the other group and that's why I'm here. I have a hard time getting a straight answer to any of my questions and my more conservative responses are often pounced upon. Earlier this week I was accused of being "way too left-brained and analytical" as if that was a bad thing. The files section is wonderful though and so I want to keep access to that. You must belong to both as well, so I'll be careful, but just between you and me, my labs might not be stellar and my frees might be inferior, but if we're going by 'how I'm feeling', I feel much better on the Eltroxin now than I did a week ago on the Armour. Haha, there you go, I said it differently. Once I go through the passage of Synthetic T4 to FreeT4 to T3 to FreeT3, is my FreeT3 inferior in any way? That's my question in a nutshell. My guess is no, but I'm open to debate. Thanks again... Judy __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 " Earlier this week I was accused of being " way too left-brained and analytical " as if that was a bad thing. " I love it ! lol Gave me the best laugh I've had this week. Seriously though, Judy, what you experienced with Armour is normal. As I understand it - and I've been on Armour since the end of March and have experienced this myself - you take a dose of Armour and feel wonderful ! Then, suddenly, all your old hypo symptoms come flooding back with avengance, and you feel like the proverbial ! Call it the Armour Dip. But that goes away, and you feel good again. Then, after a certain time (varies from person to person, obviously) you start to feel bad again, and that means that it's time to up the dose - just slightly - and go through the cycle again - and again - and again - until you are at your optimal dose. OK, it's not much fun I know. But, as I see it, it's worth it. I had been on synthetic for five years, and despite taking a dose so large that it made my doc suck his cheeks in, I wasn't getting all that much better. And, despite the pain, and the depression, and the tremendous weight gain, what really p****d me off was the fact that I was rapidly going bald ! Just four months on Armour (just Armour), and on a relatively low dose, compared to my synthetic dose, my hair is growing again. I'm not out of the woods yet - it takes time - oh, so much time ! - but I'm confident that I'm getting there - even started losing a little weight... So many people give up on Armour too early, because of the dips they think it's not working. Such a shame. I'm glad to hear you're persevering. I wish you lots and lots of luck, you deserve it ! Lili > >Reply-To: The_Thyroid_Support_Group >To: The_Thyroid_Support_Group >Subject: Re: Another Question >Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 08:46:01 -0700 (PDT) > >Thanks E, there is a lot of good information in your post and I've come >away with a few new tidbits. Are you using a combination now that is >working for you and if so please tell me what it is. I know my dosing >would be different, but I will be able to see the ratio. You've touched on >a lot of things and I'm probably not asking the question correctly, so I'll >give it another shot and see if it triggers anything. BTW, bioidentical >was just my way of saying that it would have the same chemistry and >activity. > >I can understand that the T4s going in are different and that Armour also >adds T3. It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that all enter >the body in the bound state. So my body will take in the T4 and T3 and >also presumably convert some of the T4 to T3. At some point, and I have >not found out what actually triggers it or what order it happens in, my >body will convert some of what is available to Free T3 and Free T4. Do you >know the order that all of these things are converted in? It doesn't >really matter, but might help me figure things out. So what I know is that >FT3 and FT4 are the hormones that are active in our bodies and ready to >enter the tissues deciding on yet another whack of factors. > >So just for a moment, lets forget about rates and things and just assume >that a given person has x amount of Frees in their bloodstream. In theory, >since we didn't actually consume any Frees at all, would it be safe to >assume that all of the FreeT3 and FreeT4 that is floating around in our >bloodstream has the same chemical composition and potential use whether it >started as synthetic T4 or Armour T4 and/or T3? That's my real question. >I guess what I really want to know is if the Free T3 that is finally >generated from Synthetic T4 still somehow inferior to the Free T3 that >would be generated by Armour's T4 or direct T3. I guess I'm basically >trying to rationalize that if I can get fabulous labs from the synthetic >that I will feel as well as if I had the same fabulous labs on Armour. > >I'm back on full Eltroxin for now at 125mcg. I'm going to try 100mcg and >1/4 grain Armour to see if that makes a difference. The truly maddening >thing is that I felt terrific for the first few days on Armour, better than >in years, but then it all turned south rather quickly. I'm trying to be a >believer and so I haven't given up. > >I've stopped asking combo questions on the other group and that's why I'm >here. I have a hard time getting a straight answer to any of my questions >and my more conservative responses are often pounced upon. Earlier this >week I was accused of being " way too left-brained and analytical " as if >that was a bad thing. The files section is wonderful though and so I want >to keep access to that. You must belong to both as well, so I'll be >careful, but just between you and me, my labs might not be stellar and my >frees might be inferior, but if we're going by 'how I'm feeling', I feel >much better on the Eltroxin now than I did a week ago on the Armour. > >Haha, there you go, I said it differently. Once I go through the passage >of Synthetic T4 to FreeT4 to T3 to FreeT3, is my FreeT3 inferior in any >way? That's my question in a nutshell. My guess is no, but I'm open to >debate. > >Thanks again... Judy > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 "Way too left brained....." Seriously!! That's why this group works as well as it does! We're collectively able to look at this problem from all sides. That was rude of whoever said that to you. Sounds like a bruised ego barking at you! SpiffJudy P wrote: Thanks E, there is a lot of good information in your post and I've come away with a few new tidbits. Are you using a combination now that is working for you and if so please tell me what it is. I know my dosing would be different, but I will be able to see the ratio. You've touched on a lot of things and I'm probably not asking the question correctly, so I'll give it another shot and see if it triggers anything. BTW, bioidentical was just my way of saying that it would have the same chemistry and activity. I can understand that the T4s going in are different and that Armour also adds T3. It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that all enter the body in the bound state. So my body will take in the T4 and T3 and also presumably convert some of the T4 to T3. At some point, and I have not found out what actually triggers it or what order it happens in, my body will convert some of what is available to Free T3 and Free T4. Do you know the order that all of these things are converted in? It doesn't really matter, but might help me figure things out. So what I know is that FT3 and FT4 are the hormones that are active in our bodies and ready to enter the tissues deciding on yet another whack of factors. So just for a moment, lets forget about rates and things and just assume that a given person has x amount of Frees in their bloodstream. In theory, since we didn't actually consume any Frees at all, would it be safe to assume that all of the FreeT3 and FreeT4 that is floating around in our bloodstream has the same chemical composition and potential use whether it started as synthetic T4 or Armour T4 and/or T3? That's my real question. I guess what I really want to know is if the Free T3 that is finally generated from Synthetic T4 still somehow inferior to the Free T3 that would be generated by Armour's T4 or direct T3. I guess I'm basically trying to rationalize that if I can get fabulous labs from the synthetic that I will feel as well as if I had the same fabulous labs on Armour. I'm back on full Eltroxin for now at 125mcg. I'm going to try 100mcg and 1/4 grain Armour to see if that makes a difference. The truly maddening thing is that I felt terrific for the first few days on Armour, better than in years, but then it all turned south rather quickly. I'm trying to be a believer and so I haven't given up. I've stopped asking combo questions on the other group and that's why I'm here. I have a hard time getting a straight answer to any of my questions and my more conservative responses are often pounced upon. Earlier this week I was accused of being "way too left-brained and analytical" as if that was a bad thing. The files section is wonderful though and so I want to keep access to that. You must belong to both as well, so I'll be careful, but just between you and me, my labs might not be stellar and my frees might be inferior, but if we're going by 'how I'm feeling', I feel much better on the Eltroxin now than I did a week ago on the Armour. Haha, there you go, I said it differently. Once I go through the passage of Synthetic T4 to FreeT4 to T3 to FreeT3, is my FreeT3 inferior in any way? That's my question in a nutshell. My guess is no, but I'm open to debate. Thanks again... Judy __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Hi Judy, I'm afraid I can't tell you exactly how much of what I was taking when I was on the synthetic. My memory has completely gone ! I'm hoping it'll return home when things get sorted out a bit ! lol But I know I was taking 200 levo, plus a combo T4/T3 pill - but I don't remember how much of each it contained. In March I did cold turkey and dropped the synthetics completely, and started on one grain of Armour. lol Boy that was hard ! I put on soooo much weight !!! I increased by symptoms (my doctor gives me carte blanche - he respects my intelligence !), a half or quarter grain every two to three weeks. Now, I'm on 5 grains and I think I'm going to wait a bit longer for the next increase - but we'll see... 1 grain to 1.5 grain to 2 grains in about 10 days does sound a bit rapid ! Maybe that was part of the trouble. Normally you should wait at least 14 days between increases. Lili > >Reply-To: The_Thyroid_Support_Group >To: The_Thyroid_Support_Group >Subject: Re: Another Question >Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:45:44 -0700 (PDT) > >Thanks Lili, you've explained it much better than most. I have not given >up on Armour and I will definitely give it another shot. There are a few >things that I want to take care of first, and then I'll try again. I >haven't had my 24 hour adrenal test and I suspect that I'm high and low >throughout the day so I want to clear that up so that I can have a running >start. The bottom line is that I don't feel all that bad. I did have a >really hard time on Synthroid, but as long as I stick to my Eltroxin, >things go pretty well. Gosh, for decades I just took my pill in the am and >never gave it a second thought. That was actually a good thing for me >because it made me look to other sources like food and exercise for my >woes. Anyway, I also have a disease that not literally, but essentially >makes me allergic to my own sweat. This made for a very painful few weeks >because I couldn't stop sweating on the Armour. With that in mind, I want >to also wait until it's not 100 degress > outside. I'm thinking if I can get everything else in line by the end of >September that it will be a good place time to start. Now that I know what >to expect, I can prepare for it and work my way through. I also have PVCs >(premature ventricle contractions of the heart) that I control with >electrolyte balance. That made the palpitations rather unnerving for me. >I'm also struggling with insulin resistance and my blood sugar crashes were >more frequent and more severe. I guess that all of these things would >explain why I actually feel better when I'm a little hypo. The Armour just >seemed to make most of these things worse, so I want to fix the things that >I can from this list and then give Armour another a fair try. And that >would be my 'left-brained' analysis of the situation LOL. > >Please tell me what dose of levo you were on and the timeline of your >progression up to your current dose. I know mine won't be the same, but it >can still be a good guideline. I think I definitely increased too quickly. > I had swollen feet and everyone screamed 'hypo - you need and increase'. >That happened twice and I went from 1 grain to 1.5 grain to 2 grains in >about 10 days and it all went downhill from there. > >--------------------------------- > >I'm not out of the woods yet - it takes time - oh, so much time ! - >but I'm confident that I'm getting there - even started losing a little >weight... So many people give up on Armour too early, because of the dips >they think it's not working. Such a shame. I'm glad to hear you're >persevering. I wish you lots and lots of luck, you deserve it ! > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 Here you go.... Hypothyroid patients who are taking levothyroxine (i.e., Synthroid), Cytomel, Thyrolar, or natural thyroid products like Armour and are in the normal thyroid range can give blood if they don't have any other precluding conditions.Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood.Anyone with any other autoimmune disease should not give blood, unless they are asymptomatic and off all medications for one month. Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 Here you go.... Hypothyroid patients who are taking levothyroxine (i.e., Synthroid), Cytomel, Thyrolar, or natural thyroid products like Armour and are in the normal thyroid range can give blood if they don't have any other precluding conditions.Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood.Anyone with any other autoimmune disease should not give blood, unless they are asymptomatic and off all medications for one month. Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 Here you go.... Hypothyroid patients who are taking levothyroxine (i.e., Synthroid), Cytomel, Thyrolar, or natural thyroid products like Armour and are in the normal thyroid range can give blood if they don't have any other precluding conditions.Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood.Anyone with any other autoimmune disease should not give blood, unless they are asymptomatic and off all medications for one month. Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 THANK YOU! I looked at the website for the redcross and it had nothing on it regarding this. There's some girls that are in the training class that say they have Graves, but say it's not an autoimmune disease. I don't get it. They've had it for years, but from what you all say here, it is. It makes sense that it is, if your body attacks something, it's autoimmune. Can you figure out why they'd say that? They looked at me like I had 3 eyes or something when I said that it was.SpiffJudy P wrote: Here you go.... Hypothyroid patients who are taking levothyroxine (i.e., Synthroid), Cytomel, Thyrolar, or natural thyroid products like Armour and are in the normal thyroid range can give blood if they don't have any other precluding conditions.Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood.Anyone with any other autoimmune disease should not give blood, unless they are asymptomatic and off all medications for one month. Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 THANK YOU! I looked at the website for the redcross and it had nothing on it regarding this. There's some girls that are in the training class that say they have Graves, but say it's not an autoimmune disease. I don't get it. They've had it for years, but from what you all say here, it is. It makes sense that it is, if your body attacks something, it's autoimmune. Can you figure out why they'd say that? They looked at me like I had 3 eyes or something when I said that it was.SpiffJudy P wrote: Here you go.... Hypothyroid patients who are taking levothyroxine (i.e., Synthroid), Cytomel, Thyrolar, or natural thyroid products like Armour and are in the normal thyroid range can give blood if they don't have any other precluding conditions.Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood.Anyone with any other autoimmune disease should not give blood, unless they are asymptomatic and off all medications for one month. Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 THANK YOU! I looked at the website for the redcross and it had nothing on it regarding this. There's some girls that are in the training class that say they have Graves, but say it's not an autoimmune disease. I don't get it. They've had it for years, but from what you all say here, it is. It makes sense that it is, if your body attacks something, it's autoimmune. Can you figure out why they'd say that? They looked at me like I had 3 eyes or something when I said that it was.SpiffJudy P wrote: Here you go.... Hypothyroid patients who are taking levothyroxine (i.e., Synthroid), Cytomel, Thyrolar, or natural thyroid products like Armour and are in the normal thyroid range can give blood if they don't have any other precluding conditions.Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood.Anyone with any other autoimmune disease should not give blood, unless they are asymptomatic and off all medications for one month. Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 I have no idea. I really don't know anything about Grave's or autoimmune thyroid disease. Maybe some grave's is and some grave's isn't. I have your basic, run of the mill, underactive thyroid gland. I just did some Googling on Grave's disease and it looks like the girls might want to do some too! Sure looks like autoimmune to me... http://www.ngdf.org/faq.htm If it is autoimmune, it doesn't surprise me that they don't know. A lot of people have autoimmune disorders but are never told that by the doc. There are a few things in my family the are autoimmune, but I had no idea. Anyway, what I posted is just a direct quote from somewhere. It sounds like if someone is not on the antithyroid drugs, that they may be able to donate. If you check it out with your doner location, give us the scoop... Judy THANK YOU! I looked at the website for the redcross and it had nothing on it regarding this. There's some girls that are in the training class that say they have Graves, but say it's not an autoimmune disease. I don't get it. They've had it for years, but from what you all say here, it is. It makes sense that it is, if your body attacks something, it's autoimmune. Can you figure out why they'd say that? They looked at me like I had 3 eyes or something when I said that it was. Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood. Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 I have no idea. I really don't know anything about Grave's or autoimmune thyroid disease. Maybe some grave's is and some grave's isn't. I have your basic, run of the mill, underactive thyroid gland. I just did some Googling on Grave's disease and it looks like the girls might want to do some too! Sure looks like autoimmune to me... http://www.ngdf.org/faq.htm If it is autoimmune, it doesn't surprise me that they don't know. A lot of people have autoimmune disorders but are never told that by the doc. There are a few things in my family the are autoimmune, but I had no idea. Anyway, what I posted is just a direct quote from somewhere. It sounds like if someone is not on the antithyroid drugs, that they may be able to donate. If you check it out with your doner location, give us the scoop... Judy THANK YOU! I looked at the website for the redcross and it had nothing on it regarding this. There's some girls that are in the training class that say they have Graves, but say it's not an autoimmune disease. I don't get it. They've had it for years, but from what you all say here, it is. It makes sense that it is, if your body attacks something, it's autoimmune. Can you figure out why they'd say that? They looked at me like I had 3 eyes or something when I said that it was. Graves' disease or hyperthyroidism patients who are on antithyroid medicines, or who are not currently in normal thyroid range, cannot give blood. Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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