Re: Literacy levels for HOH / D kids

[Guest guest]

This has been my main worry since we found out Hannah is HOH. I guess since I

love to read it has been harder for me to grasp the fact that she may not be

able to read as well as I would like. But I just try to think possitively about

it. She is already doing well in her class with sounds and i think ST is

actually going to help a little too. I try to read extra loud to her and really

pronounce my words - although technically that isn't the best way to teach a

child!

I would be interested in facts too if anybody has them to offer.

Baugh wrote:

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids? What

I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent advisor with our

EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of the communication

method, for the most part, the literacy levels are lousy. She gave us

information about functional vs entertainment literacy. According to research

done at Galludet their incoming freshman aged 17-18 yrs on average, had a

literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable for

my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't seem to

wrap my head around it.

---------------------------------

Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

[Guest guest]

This has been my main worry since we found out Hannah is HOH. I guess since I

love to read it has been harder for me to grasp the fact that she may not be

able to read as well as I would like. But I just try to think possitively about

it. She is already doing well in her class with sounds and i think ST is

actually going to help a little too. I try to read extra loud to her and really

pronounce my words - although technically that isn't the best way to teach a

child!

I would be interested in facts too if anybody has them to offer.

Baugh wrote:

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids? What

I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent advisor with our

EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of the communication

method, for the most part, the literacy levels are lousy. She gave us

information about functional vs entertainment literacy. According to research

done at Galludet their incoming freshman aged 17-18 yrs on average, had a

literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable for

my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't seem to

wrap my head around it.

---------------------------------

Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

[Guest guest]

This has been my main worry since we found out Hannah is HOH. I guess since I

love to read it has been harder for me to grasp the fact that she may not be

able to read as well as I would like. But I just try to think possitively about

it. She is already doing well in her class with sounds and i think ST is

actually going to help a little too. I try to read extra loud to her and really

pronounce my words - although technically that isn't the best way to teach a

child!

I would be interested in facts too if anybody has them to offer.

Baugh wrote:

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids? What

I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent advisor with our

EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of the communication

method, for the most part, the literacy levels are lousy. She gave us

information about functional vs entertainment literacy. According to research

done at Galludet their incoming freshman aged 17-18 yrs on average, had a

literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable for

my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't seem to

wrap my head around it.

---------------------------------

Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

[Guest guest]

,

You have been given information that is just partially true. In the

past, HOH kids have had limited literacy skills, such as maxxing out at

a 4th-5th grade level. HOH kids who follow an oral approach break this

barrier and have developmentally appropriate literacy skills. Carol

Flexer has a wealth of information on this topic. I'd highly recommend

her book, with Lyn on, " Literacy Learning for Children Who Are

Deaf or Hard of Hearing " . It can be purchased through the AGBell

bookstore (it is in print, though not widely available at retail

bookstores). They cite research through the 1990s (book was published

in 2000) on literacy skills of kids who are oral, and have fantastic

information on how to bring reading into your HOH kid's life.

In short, it is NOT NORMAL for oral HOH kids to have such a significant

delay with reading and writing. A hearing loss does not mean your child

will not read or write well. The recent statistics I have seen for kids

who sign only still show these delays, but since that's not my family's

world, I really don't follow up on it too much.

Kerry

Literacy levels for HOH / D kids

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids?

What I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent

advisor with our EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of

the communication method, for the most part, the literacy levels are

lousy. She gave us information about functional vs entertainment

literacy. According to research done at Galludet their incoming freshman

aged 17-18 yrs on average, had a literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel

really disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely

unacceptable for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its

considered normal? I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

[Guest guest]

,

You have been given information that is just partially true. In the

past, HOH kids have had limited literacy skills, such as maxxing out at

a 4th-5th grade level. HOH kids who follow an oral approach break this

barrier and have developmentally appropriate literacy skills. Carol

Flexer has a wealth of information on this topic. I'd highly recommend

her book, with Lyn on, " Literacy Learning for Children Who Are

Deaf or Hard of Hearing " . It can be purchased through the AGBell

bookstore (it is in print, though not widely available at retail

bookstores). They cite research through the 1990s (book was published

in 2000) on literacy skills of kids who are oral, and have fantastic

information on how to bring reading into your HOH kid's life.

In short, it is NOT NORMAL for oral HOH kids to have such a significant

delay with reading and writing. A hearing loss does not mean your child

will not read or write well. The recent statistics I have seen for kids

who sign only still show these delays, but since that's not my family's

world, I really don't follow up on it too much.

Kerry

Literacy levels for HOH / D kids

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids?

What I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent

advisor with our EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of

the communication method, for the most part, the literacy levels are

lousy. She gave us information about functional vs entertainment

literacy. According to research done at Galludet their incoming freshman

aged 17-18 yrs on average, had a literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel

really disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely

unacceptable for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its

considered normal? I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

[Guest guest]

,

You have been given information that is just partially true. In the

past, HOH kids have had limited literacy skills, such as maxxing out at

a 4th-5th grade level. HOH kids who follow an oral approach break this

barrier and have developmentally appropriate literacy skills. Carol

Flexer has a wealth of information on this topic. I'd highly recommend

her book, with Lyn on, " Literacy Learning for Children Who Are

Deaf or Hard of Hearing " . It can be purchased through the AGBell

bookstore (it is in print, though not widely available at retail

bookstores). They cite research through the 1990s (book was published

in 2000) on literacy skills of kids who are oral, and have fantastic

information on how to bring reading into your HOH kid's life.

In short, it is NOT NORMAL for oral HOH kids to have such a significant

delay with reading and writing. A hearing loss does not mean your child

will not read or write well. The recent statistics I have seen for kids

who sign only still show these delays, but since that's not my family's

world, I really don't follow up on it too much.

Kerry

Literacy levels for HOH / D kids

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids?

What I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent

advisor with our EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of

the communication method, for the most part, the literacy levels are

lousy. She gave us information about functional vs entertainment

literacy. According to research done at Galludet their incoming freshman

aged 17-18 yrs on average, had a literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel

really disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely

unacceptable for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its

considered normal? I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

[Guest guest]

For those who are interested, my daughter's cert AVT and I wrote two

articles about reading and HOH kids a few years ago, which were

published in Volta Voices. There is a link to the articles (the

pictures are old!) at http://www.avcclisten.com/articles.htm. " Ten

Books a Day " cites numerous research articles, including Carol Flexer &

Lyn on's book that I mentioned in my previous post. " 13 Tips for

Reading " are things that I did with Hadley for the first 18 months of

her life around reading.

For the new parents, Hadley is now 4 1/2 years old and has a severe

bilateral hearing loss due to Cx26. She wears hearing aids and has

received Auditory-Verbal Therapy since age 6 months. While we have had

our share of struggles with different hearing related things over the

last 4 years, Hadley's language continues to sky rocket. She currently

tests about 2 years above average with spoken language. As far as

reading goes, she loves reading chapter books right now (we're in the

middle of reading the Betsy series by Carolyn Haywood) and loves

discussing the books and acting the plot out in great detail. She's

doing more and more reading on her own, makes up her own stories and

songs, and has a current obsession with words that have multiple

meanings or are compound words (she thinks it's hysterical that one of

her teacher's last names is Livermore). She's no superstar, just a

regular little girl who loves all these things, and happens to wear

hearing aids. It's not holding her back, and there's no reason to think

that things will be different for your children.

kerry

[Guest guest]

For those who are interested, my daughter's cert AVT and I wrote two

articles about reading and HOH kids a few years ago, which were

published in Volta Voices. There is a link to the articles (the

pictures are old!) at http://www.avcclisten.com/articles.htm. " Ten

Books a Day " cites numerous research articles, including Carol Flexer &

Lyn on's book that I mentioned in my previous post. " 13 Tips for

Reading " are things that I did with Hadley for the first 18 months of

her life around reading.

For the new parents, Hadley is now 4 1/2 years old and has a severe

bilateral hearing loss due to Cx26. She wears hearing aids and has

received Auditory-Verbal Therapy since age 6 months. While we have had

our share of struggles with different hearing related things over the

last 4 years, Hadley's language continues to sky rocket. She currently

tests about 2 years above average with spoken language. As far as

reading goes, she loves reading chapter books right now (we're in the

middle of reading the Betsy series by Carolyn Haywood) and loves

discussing the books and acting the plot out in great detail. She's

doing more and more reading on her own, makes up her own stories and

songs, and has a current obsession with words that have multiple

meanings or are compound words (she thinks it's hysterical that one of

her teacher's last names is Livermore). She's no superstar, just a

regular little girl who loves all these things, and happens to wear

hearing aids. It's not holding her back, and there's no reason to think

that things will be different for your children.

kerry

[Guest guest]

This statistic scared the hell out of me when I first heard about it, seven

years ago. While I don't have current statistical information about reading

scores among deaf children, I do have my 7-year-old son. He has a severe to

profound loss, is in mainstream first grade, and currently reads well above

age level. He began the same way his (mostly) hearing sister did, by reading

environmental signs and asking how different words are spelled. He currently

reads everything he can get his hands on, including chapter books and

Garfield comics. And honestly, I really don't love the Garfield comics,

except it gives him access to colloquialisms and expressions he might have a

hard time picking up otherwise.

I think the important thing is to read to your child, give them a love of

books and reading, and be aware of this kind of statistic. But from what

I've seen, my son is reading and comprehending the stories better than most

kids in his class, which is a huge relief to me.

Stefanie

Mom to Ben, 7, severe/profound HOH, and Isabella, 10, mild loss

on 2/15/06 9:11 PM, Baugh at a_baugh7080@... wrote:

> Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids? What

> I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent advisor with

> our EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of the communication

> method, for the most part, the literacy levels are lousy. She gave us

> information about functional vs entertainment literacy. According to research

> done at Galludet their incoming freshman aged 17-18 yrs on average, had a

> literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

>

> I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

> disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable

> for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't

> seem to wrap my head around it.

>

[Guest guest]

,

We actually had to battle against this stereotype last year when

entered first grade. I'll be the first one to admit that he was struggling

to keep up with his classmates in reading, but the overwhelming majority of

them are considered to be " High Ability Learners " when it comes to language

arts, and he really was trying to figure his way through everything. Our

issue was that our school chose to take him out of the classroom for an hour

four days a week to go to remedial reading *without telling us first* - and

that's a big no-no in our book. When we found out, we were livid,

especially since couldn't figure out what he'd done " wrong " to have to

go (he was the only one in his class getting pulled out). We were told that

it was " . due to his health history - he's just going to have problems. "

He got so mad about people thinking he couldn't read like the other kids

because of his bad ear (he overheard the reading specialist talking to his

Dad and I - I was not happy with her) that he buckled down and poured

himself into working his way through his reading issues, and managed to get

himself to be the only kid in our school to get *out* of the remedial

reading halfway through the year. He now reads, memorizes, and *recites*

entire Calvin and Hobbes and Peanuts strips, and my bribery to get him to

let his otologist check out his ear that's getting over a nasty infection is

a trip to & Noble.

Do we have issues? Sure, we do - sounding out words can be a bit

challenging for him, and group reading is a skill we're still working on

understanding. Writing essays is still incredibly challenging, but that may

be more due to his perfectionist nature than his hearing (if he can't find

the perfect words to use, he just shuts down and does nothing). The one

thing I've learned in the last two years since 's diagnosis is that

stereotypes are made to be *broken* - and you and your child's teachers will

know better than anyone else how to make that happen for your daughter. If

she knows that you expect her to reach for the same stars as your son, she

has every chance of grabbing them first.

Hugs to you,

Kris

Mom to (7 y.o., Profound SNL, Left Ear) and Ethan (6 y.o., Selective

Hearing)

_____

From: Listen-Up [mailto:Listen-Up ] On Behalf

Of Baugh

Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:12 PM

To: listen up group

Subject: Literacy levels for HOH / D kids

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH kids? What

I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent advisor with

our EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of the

communication method, for the most part, the literacy levels are lousy. She

gave us information about functional vs entertainment literacy. According to

research done at Galludet their incoming freshman aged 17-18 yrs on average,

had a literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel

really disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely

unacceptable for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered

normal? I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

[Guest guest]

So well said Kerry! Also, one of our list mate's son is a Freshman at

UCLA (He had over a 4.0 average)!

[Guest guest]

Kerry Dowling & Dan wrote: As far as reading

goes, she loves reading chapter books right now (we're in the middle of reading

the Betsy series by Carolyn Haywood) and loves discussing the books and acting

the plot out in great detail.

I use to read those books as a child and I loved them. I had forgotten about

this series until you mentioned them.

Debbie

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I too do not have any info on literacy levels, but have heard the same

dismal projections for our d/hoh kids. I have a friend who is an English major

and we had a discussion about this one day. I can't remember the exact grade,

but what I remember her telling me that overall the reading level of most

Americans is at about a middle school level. I'm not sure where she got this

info other than maybe in one of her classes.

These " findings " should bother you. It's disturbing to think that any child

would only be able to read at " only " a 4th grade level. But information is

power. You know this now and will probably do everything that you can to make

sure that your child beats those odds. I think I can safely say that all of us

here do not except this as a projection for our children if the only thing they

are dealing with is a hearing loss. I think that these reports make us want to

challenge ourselves and our children to prove the system wrong. (As one poster

pointed out in her story).

So know that the studies are out there and know what they say, then do

whatever you can to make sure that your child isn't one of those in that group.

The best and most benifical thing you can do is read with and to your child.

Read anything that they want you to. If your child is young, you can read your

emails, newspapers, and magazines outloud to them. They may not understand it

now, but they will hear the language and soak it up like a sponge.

Debbie, mom to , 6, moderate SNHL and , 3, hearing

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail

Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I too do not have any info on literacy levels, but have heard the same

dismal projections for our d/hoh kids. I have a friend who is an English major

and we had a discussion about this one day. I can't remember the exact grade,

but what I remember her telling me that overall the reading level of most

Americans is at about a middle school level. I'm not sure where she got this

info other than maybe in one of her classes.

These " findings " should bother you. It's disturbing to think that any child

would only be able to read at " only " a 4th grade level. But information is

power. You know this now and will probably do everything that you can to make

sure that your child beats those odds. I think I can safely say that all of us

here do not except this as a projection for our children if the only thing they

are dealing with is a hearing loss. I think that these reports make us want to

challenge ourselves and our children to prove the system wrong. (As one poster

pointed out in her story).

So know that the studies are out there and know what they say, then do

whatever you can to make sure that your child isn't one of those in that group.

The best and most benifical thing you can do is read with and to your child.

Read anything that they want you to. If your child is young, you can read your

emails, newspapers, and magazines outloud to them. They may not understand it

now, but they will hear the language and soak it up like a sponge.

Debbie, mom to , 6, moderate SNHL and , 3, hearing

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail

Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I too do not have any info on literacy levels, but have heard the same

dismal projections for our d/hoh kids. I have a friend who is an English major

and we had a discussion about this one day. I can't remember the exact grade,

but what I remember her telling me that overall the reading level of most

Americans is at about a middle school level. I'm not sure where she got this

info other than maybe in one of her classes.

These " findings " should bother you. It's disturbing to think that any child

would only be able to read at " only " a 4th grade level. But information is

power. You know this now and will probably do everything that you can to make

sure that your child beats those odds. I think I can safely say that all of us

here do not except this as a projection for our children if the only thing they

are dealing with is a hearing loss. I think that these reports make us want to

challenge ourselves and our children to prove the system wrong. (As one poster

pointed out in her story).

So know that the studies are out there and know what they say, then do

whatever you can to make sure that your child isn't one of those in that group.

The best and most benifical thing you can do is read with and to your child.

Read anything that they want you to. If your child is young, you can read your

emails, newspapers, and magazines outloud to them. They may not understand it

now, but they will hear the language and soak it up like a sponge.

Debbie, mom to , 6, moderate SNHL and , 3, hearing

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail

Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/15/2006 9:13:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

a_baugh7080@... writes:

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable

for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't

seem to wrap my head around it.

Well, as you can see by the responses, many of us here consider those stats

to be unacceptable. While they may be the norm -- based on all kinds of D/HOH

kids, I don't accept them as appropriate for my son.

There's a history of lowered expectations for D/HOH kids. Perhaps there's a

reason for that, many kids who are D/HOH also have other issues. I think that

statistic (which I've also heard before) is inadequately expressed. Those

stats should be broken down into sub-categories which give more information,

like listing other disabilities that would cause delays to be expected and

acceptable. Before I accept them, I want to see the methodology used to derive

them. And I've never bothered to go looking for it, because I simply don't

believe that statistic is valid.

Also, when considering/comparing literacy levels for our D/HOH kids, I think

we should also take into account the national averages for all kids at the

same age. It was a startling to me to discover that the NY Times is written at

a 9th grade reading level. If that's the case, imagine what the target level

is for the NY Post, or People magazine, or even Time magazine. As far as I'm

concerned, the national standard averages are lower than I'll accept for

either of my kids.

From our experience, some literacy/language issues are common among D/HOH

kids (and even D/HOH grownups). So common that the TODs we know have been taught

to deal with them, but aren't really told why they're common among the kids

they serve. For instance, idioms, grammar structure, and processing issues.

And our anecdotal experience is with kids who were raised orally. You'd think

they'd be better at grammar since they're being raised orally, but it's still

a common struggle for these kids.

Our ASL tutor is the child of Deaf parents. Both are well educated and quite

intelligent. But they don't usually get sarcasm and they have trouble

understanding idioms (Like: let the cat out of the bag). From what I can tell,

this is because the focus is on getting the concrete meanings of what is

said/read and not the more abstract, non-contextual or creative use of language.

Our son has always understood sarcasm, but idioms floored him. Structure for

his spoken language was great, way above age level. Written expressive

language was behind. There's no easy explanation for this. And some D/HOH kids

don't have any trouble with this stuff at all.

Ian is an average kid. He isn't brilliant, isn't the next Einstein. We know

that. But that doesn't mean that we'll accept and preset statistic as the

standard for our expectations. We always set his goals just a little higher

than

we think he can handle. And much of the time, he accomplishes those goals. I

had those stats thrown at us when Ian was in elementary school as a way of

dismissing our requests for appropriate services. One teacher had the audacity

to tell me that the problem was my ego -- that I couldn't handle the

personal disappointment of having a " special " child. (My response just was a

touch

sarcastic. My husband's eyes almost popped out of his head. His description

was that he " he ducked for cover as Jill ate her for lunch. " LOL)

Obviously many of our kids can learn this stuff, even if they need help to

do it. But I think some of those stats and people's expectations are out of

date. In my biased opinion, those stats are often misused to defend

under-performance or inadequate services. Overall, D/HOH kids where probably

capable of

higher literacy levels all along, but were not pushed or the professionals

hadn't yet realized that they were capable.

In our house, we view stats as number crunching a bunch of data to make your

point. And we know that stats can be both misleading and manipulated,

depending on how the data is gathered, what portion of it is used and how it's

presented. I always take stats and polls with a grain of salt.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/15/2006 9:13:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

a_baugh7080@... writes:

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable

for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't

seem to wrap my head around it.

Well, as you can see by the responses, many of us here consider those stats

to be unacceptable. While they may be the norm -- based on all kinds of D/HOH

kids, I don't accept them as appropriate for my son.

There's a history of lowered expectations for D/HOH kids. Perhaps there's a

reason for that, many kids who are D/HOH also have other issues. I think that

statistic (which I've also heard before) is inadequately expressed. Those

stats should be broken down into sub-categories which give more information,

like listing other disabilities that would cause delays to be expected and

acceptable. Before I accept them, I want to see the methodology used to derive

them. And I've never bothered to go looking for it, because I simply don't

believe that statistic is valid.

Also, when considering/comparing literacy levels for our D/HOH kids, I think

we should also take into account the national averages for all kids at the

same age. It was a startling to me to discover that the NY Times is written at

a 9th grade reading level. If that's the case, imagine what the target level

is for the NY Post, or People magazine, or even Time magazine. As far as I'm

concerned, the national standard averages are lower than I'll accept for

either of my kids.

From our experience, some literacy/language issues are common among D/HOH

kids (and even D/HOH grownups). So common that the TODs we know have been taught

to deal with them, but aren't really told why they're common among the kids

they serve. For instance, idioms, grammar structure, and processing issues.

And our anecdotal experience is with kids who were raised orally. You'd think

they'd be better at grammar since they're being raised orally, but it's still

a common struggle for these kids.

Our ASL tutor is the child of Deaf parents. Both are well educated and quite

intelligent. But they don't usually get sarcasm and they have trouble

understanding idioms (Like: let the cat out of the bag). From what I can tell,

this is because the focus is on getting the concrete meanings of what is

said/read and not the more abstract, non-contextual or creative use of language.

Our son has always understood sarcasm, but idioms floored him. Structure for

his spoken language was great, way above age level. Written expressive

language was behind. There's no easy explanation for this. And some D/HOH kids

don't have any trouble with this stuff at all.

Ian is an average kid. He isn't brilliant, isn't the next Einstein. We know

that. But that doesn't mean that we'll accept and preset statistic as the

standard for our expectations. We always set his goals just a little higher

than

we think he can handle. And much of the time, he accomplishes those goals. I

had those stats thrown at us when Ian was in elementary school as a way of

dismissing our requests for appropriate services. One teacher had the audacity

to tell me that the problem was my ego -- that I couldn't handle the

personal disappointment of having a " special " child. (My response just was a

touch

sarcastic. My husband's eyes almost popped out of his head. His description

was that he " he ducked for cover as Jill ate her for lunch. " LOL)

Obviously many of our kids can learn this stuff, even if they need help to

do it. But I think some of those stats and people's expectations are out of

date. In my biased opinion, those stats are often misused to defend

under-performance or inadequate services. Overall, D/HOH kids where probably

capable of

higher literacy levels all along, but were not pushed or the professionals

hadn't yet realized that they were capable.

In our house, we view stats as number crunching a bunch of data to make your

point. And we know that stats can be both misleading and manipulated,

depending on how the data is gathered, what portion of it is used and how it's

presented. I always take stats and polls with a grain of salt.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/15/2006 9:13:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

a_baugh7080@... writes:

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable

for my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't

seem to wrap my head around it.

Well, as you can see by the responses, many of us here consider those stats

to be unacceptable. While they may be the norm -- based on all kinds of D/HOH

kids, I don't accept them as appropriate for my son.

There's a history of lowered expectations for D/HOH kids. Perhaps there's a

reason for that, many kids who are D/HOH also have other issues. I think that

statistic (which I've also heard before) is inadequately expressed. Those

stats should be broken down into sub-categories which give more information,

like listing other disabilities that would cause delays to be expected and

acceptable. Before I accept them, I want to see the methodology used to derive

them. And I've never bothered to go looking for it, because I simply don't

believe that statistic is valid.

Also, when considering/comparing literacy levels for our D/HOH kids, I think

we should also take into account the national averages for all kids at the

same age. It was a startling to me to discover that the NY Times is written at

a 9th grade reading level. If that's the case, imagine what the target level

is for the NY Post, or People magazine, or even Time magazine. As far as I'm

concerned, the national standard averages are lower than I'll accept for

either of my kids.

From our experience, some literacy/language issues are common among D/HOH

kids (and even D/HOH grownups). So common that the TODs we know have been taught

to deal with them, but aren't really told why they're common among the kids

they serve. For instance, idioms, grammar structure, and processing issues.

And our anecdotal experience is with kids who were raised orally. You'd think

they'd be better at grammar since they're being raised orally, but it's still

a common struggle for these kids.

Our ASL tutor is the child of Deaf parents. Both are well educated and quite

intelligent. But they don't usually get sarcasm and they have trouble

understanding idioms (Like: let the cat out of the bag). From what I can tell,

this is because the focus is on getting the concrete meanings of what is

said/read and not the more abstract, non-contextual or creative use of language.

Our son has always understood sarcasm, but idioms floored him. Structure for

his spoken language was great, way above age level. Written expressive

language was behind. There's no easy explanation for this. And some D/HOH kids

don't have any trouble with this stuff at all.

Ian is an average kid. He isn't brilliant, isn't the next Einstein. We know

that. But that doesn't mean that we'll accept and preset statistic as the

standard for our expectations. We always set his goals just a little higher

than

we think he can handle. And much of the time, he accomplishes those goals. I

had those stats thrown at us when Ian was in elementary school as a way of

dismissing our requests for appropriate services. One teacher had the audacity

to tell me that the problem was my ego -- that I couldn't handle the

personal disappointment of having a " special " child. (My response just was a

touch

sarcastic. My husband's eyes almost popped out of his head. His description

was that he " he ducked for cover as Jill ate her for lunch. " LOL)

Obviously many of our kids can learn this stuff, even if they need help to

do it. But I think some of those stats and people's expectations are out of

date. In my biased opinion, those stats are often misused to defend

under-performance or inadequate services. Overall, D/HOH kids where probably

capable of

higher literacy levels all along, but were not pushed or the professionals

hadn't yet realized that they were capable.

In our house, we view stats as number crunching a bunch of data to make your

point. And we know that stats can be both misleading and manipulated,

depending on how the data is gathered, what portion of it is used and how it's

presented. I always take stats and polls with a grain of salt.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/16/2006 10:19:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

stromms@... writes:

When we as

parents, read to our kids, show them that books are important to us,

and act as though we assume that they will be important to our kids, I

think that they act on this and become better readers.

Hear hear!! That's our philosophy as well.

My kids think it's a hoot when they come home from some afternoon activity

to find us sitting in a quiet living room, each with our noses stuck in a

book. No TV, maybe some music, but usually just blessed silence. They tease us

that we're old and boring.

And then, on any given night, after being sent to bed, we'll find the kids

lying on their beds doing the same thing. They don't even realize they're

doing what they've seen us do for years. We often have to tell them to turn off

their lights at 11 or 12 at night because they'd gotten caught up in what

they're reading and lost track of the time.

Makes me smile every time -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/16/2006 1:37:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

mom2savages@... writes:

If you read silently to yourself, what do you hear? You hear your own voice

in your head.

According to my kids, they see pictures or colors in their heads. They now

read books without any pictures. According to them, the words paint pictures

for them. It's always been the same for me.

Jill

[Guest guest]

.... I hit the send button too quickly.

And for numbers (adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing) which I've

always done quickly in my head, I don't see numbers. I don't think that I ever

memorized the " math facts " because I always " seen " the answers. I actually

see shapes and colors as related to each other, in ratios that correspond to

the math I'm doing. Sounds insane, huh? But I do really well on that

folded-box portion of IQ testing. Being a visual being, I don't hear things in

my

head. Instead I " see " things. So far my kids seem to be very similar. Ian has

memorized math facts, but my daughter also " sees " it. (shrug)

Now you all know for certain that I'm certifiably insane, LOL.

TTFN -- Jill

[Guest guest]

My son whose hearing loss (because of bad advice,etc,)was not diagnosed

until he was 9 (although it always existed), taught himself to read

when he was about 4. Up to that point, his " speech " was pretty limited

and only understandable to his siblings and me. After that, for months,

he walked around with books, pointing to words and asking how to say

them. He actually learned to speak with a backwards phonics technique

that he had figured out. I didn't put all this together until years

later, and now understand what he was doing-he's 16. He's a great

reader now. Now, we enjoy reading some of the same books and discussing

them.

I think sometimes that professionals know what they are trained to,

which is a good thing, but sometimes don't take into account other

ways of doing things. I think, and this is an opinion not based on

research, that as parents, we promote reading like we do music or

sports, or other skills, by being involved, providing encouragement and

a positive environment for the particular skill/interest. When we as

parents, read to our kids, show them that books are important to us,

and act as though we assume that they will be important to our kids, I

think that they act on this and become better readers.

Re: Literacy levels for HOH / D kids

This has been my main worry since we found out Hannah is HOH. I

guess since I

love to read it has been harder for me to grasp the fact that she may

not be

able to read as well as I would like. But I just try to think

possitively about

it. She is already doing well in her class with sounds and i think ST

is

actually going to help a little too. I try to read extra loud to her

and really

pronounce my words - although technically that isn't the best way to

teach a

child!

I would be interested in facts too if anybody has them to offer.

Baugh wrote:

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH

kids? What

I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent advisor

with our

EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of the

communication

method, for the most part, the literacy levels are lousy. She gave us

information about functional vs entertainment literacy. According to

research

done at Galludet their incoming freshman aged 17-18 yrs on average, had

a

literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel

really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely

unacceptable for

my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I

can't seem to

wrap my head around it.

---------------------------------

Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

[Guest guest]

My son whose hearing loss (because of bad advice,etc,)was not diagnosed

until he was 9 (although it always existed), taught himself to read

when he was about 4. Up to that point, his " speech " was pretty limited

and only understandable to his siblings and me. After that, for months,

he walked around with books, pointing to words and asking how to say

them. He actually learned to speak with a backwards phonics technique

that he had figured out. I didn't put all this together until years

later, and now understand what he was doing-he's 16. He's a great

reader now. Now, we enjoy reading some of the same books and discussing

them.

I think sometimes that professionals know what they are trained to,

which is a good thing, but sometimes don't take into account other

ways of doing things. I think, and this is an opinion not based on

research, that as parents, we promote reading like we do music or

sports, or other skills, by being involved, providing encouragement and

a positive environment for the particular skill/interest. When we as

parents, read to our kids, show them that books are important to us,

and act as though we assume that they will be important to our kids, I

think that they act on this and become better readers.

Re: Literacy levels for HOH / D kids

This has been my main worry since we found out Hannah is HOH. I

guess since I

love to read it has been harder for me to grasp the fact that she may

not be

able to read as well as I would like. But I just try to think

possitively about

it. She is already doing well in her class with sounds and i think ST

is

actually going to help a little too. I try to read extra loud to her

and really

pronounce my words - although technically that isn't the best way to

teach a

child!

I would be interested in facts too if anybody has them to offer.

Baugh wrote:

Any parents have any real info on the literacy levels of D / HOH

kids? What

I've read so far, has been very disconcerting. Even the parent advisor

with our

EI team didn't have much info, other than regardless of the

communication

method, for the most part, the literacy levels are lousy. She gave us

information about functional vs entertainment literacy. According to

research

done at Galludet their incoming freshman aged 17-18 yrs on average, had

a

literacy level at approx 4-5th grade.

I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel

really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely

unacceptable for

my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I

can't seem to

wrap my head around it.

---------------------------------

Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

[Guest guest]

<< I can't even really say why this is bothering me so much, but I feel really

disturbed. I think a part of is, that this would be completely unacceptable for

my hearing son, but with my HOH daughter, its considered normal? I can't seem to

wrap my head around it.

>>

Those numbers that you are talking about were the worst thing I heard when we

first found out Neal was deaf too. I consider reading and writing to be SO

important and I felt horrible thinking that that was the best I could expect

from Neal. Now though, I see that whatever numbers are out there, and however

valid they are or not, every child is an individual. I can't imagine Neal

stopping at a 4th grade level at this point. He's way too quick with picking up

vocabulary, spelling, and reading right now for that to be his prognosis. I do

see how not being able to hear would make it harder to learn to read. If you

read silently to yourself, what do you hear? You hear your own voice in your

head. If you didn't know what those words, or even a voice sounded like, it

stands to reason to me that it would be very hard to keep up. How do you sound

out a word if you don't know sounds after all? But with the technology and

early intervention available, I just don't think those numbers are going to be

around much longer, and even if they are " out there, " it doesn't mean your child

is destined to read at a fourth grade level.

Rhonda Savage

Mom to Audrey, 8, hearing; and Neal, 6, CII at 2.9 years

" Hard does not mean impossible. "

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/17/2006 12:05:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

mom2savages@... writes:

Interesting. I do picture the story as I read, but I also hear the words in

my head. Maybe I'm weird and just finding that out. LOL

Oh, I hear words ... I talk to myself all the time. I'll make lists of what

I'm suppose to do the next day, write/edit responses to memos, relive

discussions or arguments to decide what was being said or intended versus what I

heard ... plenty if words in my head. Just not usually when I read.

Best -- Jill