College Medic vs. Non College Medic

[Guest guest]

Well, maybe this will satisfy some of the credibility cravers out there.. 

TxDSHS should require that every paramedic candidate meet the following

requirements:

 

1 - attend at least a 2 year college and attain an associates degree in

paramedic science (which doesn't exist in most places), making sure classes such

as A&P, microbiology, latin, statistics, english as a first language, and art

appreciation of the western world are included in the curriculum.

2 - have a perfectly clean criminal history (not even a ticket for speeding or

littering).

3 - meet certain physical fitness requirements (a real professional should be in

great physical shape)

4 - pass an oral board challenge with 3 emergency physicians before being

allowed to complete the course.

5 - show expertise in all skill sets during clinical rotations, including

geriatric and pediatric patients.  (ever tried to get a CRNA or ER doctor to

allow a paramedic student to intubate a 2 year old child while on a clinical

rotation?  Isn't gonna happen!)

 

Instructors must have a 4 year degree, with a double major in education and

paramedicine, as well as 10 years field experience.

 

Obviously, I'm being a little bit of a smarty pants.  But those would all be

improvements, would they not?  But the question I have for you is this ... how

will that do the two things we long for so badly ... improve salaries and

increase credibility?  I submit that all this would do is massively decrease the

number of medics on the street, increasing response times, increasing the misery

level of the public, and making the guys that are employed as medics work

massive overtime, thereby burning out much sooner.  The salaries that EMS get

paid now are due mostly to the inability of the service to pay more.  I know

several service managers who will tell you .... they wish they could pay more

but just don't have the budget to do so.  I'm not seeing the correlation between

the higher education and higher salary.  Yes, it may create a bidding war for

good medics, but if you have no money to bid with, it's a moot point! 

 

The other thing is ... the public isn't going to know if I have a degree or

not.  They only see my performance on the call.  And trust me, higher education

might make me SMARTER, but it won't effect my enacting the protocols that I

follow when treating a patient. 

 

Just a few thoughts!

Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

To: texasems-l

Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 1:59 AM

On Thursday, February 12, 2009 22:31, " Lee "

said:

> There you go with some of that funny spelling again Mr. !

Well, I do wish you had told me it was in the final paragraph, instead of making

me re-read all the way through that just to find it! I fail to find the humour.

I expect more civilised behaviour from a man of your calibre.

Now pardon me, neighbour. I must cash my cheque, go to the shopping centre, and

by some new tyres. The car is becoming difficult to manoeuvre.

Rob

[Guest guest]

VERY,VERY WELL SAID.

 R.

FF/EMT-P

This is America, and " IN GOD WE TRUST " . If that offends you, tough shit.

________________________________

To: texasems-l

Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 6:46:49 AM

Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

Well, maybe this will satisfy some of the credibility cravers out there.. 

TxDSHS should require that every paramedic candidate meet the following

requirements:

 

1 - attend at least a 2 year college and attain an associates degree in

paramedic science (which doesn't exist in most places), making sure classes such

as A&P, microbiology, latin, statistics, english as a first language, and art

appreciation of the western world are included in the curriculum.

2 - have a perfectly clean criminal history (not even a ticket for speeding or

littering).

3 - meet certain physical fitness requirements (a real professional should be in

great physical shape)

4 - pass an oral board challenge with 3 emergency physicians before being

allowed to complete the course.

5 - show expertise in all skill sets during clinical rotations, including

geriatric and pediatric patients.  (ever tried to get a CRNA or ER doctor to

allow a paramedic student to intubate a 2 year old child while on a clinical

rotation?  Isn't gonna happen!)

 

Instructors must have a 4 year degree, with a double major in education and

paramedicine, as well as 10 years field experience.

 

Obviously, I'm being a little bit of a smarty pants.  But those would all be

improvements, would they not?  But the question I have for you is this ... how

will that do the two things we long for so badly ... improve salaries and

increase credibility?  I submit that all this would do is massively decrease the

number of medics on the street, increasing response times, increasing the misery

level of the public, and making the guys that are employed as medics work

massive overtime, thereby burning out much sooner.  The salaries that EMS get

paid now are due mostly to the inability of the service to pay more.  I know

several service managers who will tell you .... they wish they could pay more

but just don't have the budget to do so.  I'm not seeing the correlation between

the higher education and higher salary.  Yes, it may create a bidding war for

good medics, but if you have no money to bid with, it's a moot point! 

 

The other thing is ... the public isn't going to know if I have a degree or

not.  They only see my performance on the call.  And trust me, higher education

might make me SMARTER, but it won't effect my enacting the protocols that I

follow when treating a patient. 

 

Just a few thoughts!

From: rob.davis@armynurse corps.com

Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

To: texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com

Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 1:59 AM

On Thursday, February 12, 2009 22:31, " Lee "

said:

> There you go with some of that funny spelling again Mr. !

Well, I do wish you had told me it was in the final paragraph, instead of making

me re-read all the way through that just to find it! I fail to find the humour.

I expect more civilised behaviour from a man of your calibre.

Now pardon me, neighbour. I must cash my cheque, go to the shopping centre, and

by some new tyres. The car is becoming difficult to manoeuvre.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Actually with higher education would come more quality aggressive

protocols. As we would then be actually providing medical care,

rather than primarily transportation, reimbursement amounts would

increase. Thus more money to pay Paramedics a liveable wage. Also

the protocols would because of our better education allow for field

treatment of many minor injuries and illnesses which then also leads

to us denying transport to those that do not need an ambulance. This

lowers the actual number of ambulances needed in a system and frees

up even more funds to pay with.

Yes at present in most services the diploma vs the degree make no

difference but perhaps it will change. If it changes I will be

looking for a job as I do not have a degree yet. But who knows maybe

I will get to work on getting one, to be ready to move forward.

> ________________________________

> From: Pat Holland

> To: texasems-l

> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 6:46:49 AM

> Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

> Obviously, I'm being a little bit of a smarty pants.  But those

would all be improvements, would they not?  But the question I have

for you is this ... how will that do the two things we long for so

badly ... improve salaries and increase credibility?  I submit that

all this would do is massively decrease the number of medics on the

street, increasing response times, increasing the misery level of the

public, and making the guys that are employed as medics work massive

overtime, thereby burning out much sooner.  The salaries that EMS get

paid now are due mostly to the inability of the service to pay more. 

I know several service managers who will tell you .... they wish they

could pay more but just don't have the budget to do so.  I'm not

seeing the correlation between the higher education and higher

salary.  Yes, it may create a bidding war for good medics, but if you

have no money to bid with, it's a moot point! 

>  

> The other thing is ... the public isn't going to know if I have a

degree or not.  They only see my performance on the call.  And trust

me, higher education might make me SMARTER, but it won't effect my

enacting the protocols that I follow when treating a patient. 

>  

> Just a few thoughts!

[Guest guest]

I have a question here, Renny, regarding your statement that reimbursement rates

would increase. How do you figure that? On what do you base that assumption?

Considering the fact that EMS reimbursements from the primary providers

(Medicare, Medicaid, and even private insurance) are woefully low NOW despite

all the requests and even demands for them to improve to cover the cost of the

actual services provided without avail, how will having college-degreed

Paramedics increase that? I am not sure I follow how one will inevitably impact

the other. When you look at what is happening right now in our government and

in our economy with really no end in sight to the issues, the pot of money is

shrinking, not growing. When you look at how the money that goes to our senior

citizens in the form of healthcare coverage is most likely going to shrink even

more (and they are our primary clients), that means that hospitals will also

potentially be impacted with reduced reimbursements - my understanding is that

they already are being impacted. Soooooo, if the kitty is smaller, how will OUR

reimbursements increase regardless of what WE do to improve ourselves?

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l@...: spenair@...: Sun, 15 Feb 2009

15:32:38 +0000Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

Actually with higher education would come more quality aggressive protocols. As

we would then be actually providing medical care, rather than primarily

transportation, reimbursement amounts would increase. Thus more money to pay

Paramedics a liveable wage. Also the protocols would because of our better

education allow for field treatment of many minor injuries and illnesses which

then also leads to us denying transport to those that do not need an ambulance.

This lowers the actual number of ambulances needed in a system and frees up even

more funds to pay with. Yes at present in most services the diploma vs the

degree make no difference but perhaps it will change. If it changes I will be

looking for a job as I do not have a degree yet. But who knows maybe I will get

to work on getting one, to be ready to move forward. >

________________________________> From: Pat Holland > To:

texasems-l > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 6:46:49 AM> Subject:

RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic> Obviously, I'm being a

little bit of a smarty pants. But those would all be improvements, would they

not? But the question I have for you is this ... how will that do the two

things we long for so badly ... improve salaries and increase credibility? I

submit that all this would do is massively decrease the number of medics on the

street, increasing response times, increasing the misery level of the public,

and making the guys that are employed as medics work massive overtime, thereby

burning out much sooner. The salaries that EMS get paid now are due mostly to

the inability of the service to pay more. I know several service managers who

will tell you .... they wish they could pay more but just don't have the budget

to do so. I'm not seeing the correlation between the higher education and

higher salary. Yes, it may create a bidding war for good medics, but if you

have no money to bid with, it's a moot point! > > The other thing is ... the

public isn't going to know if I have a degree or not. They only see my

performance on the call. And trust me, higher education might make me SMARTER,

but it won't effect my enacting the protocols that I follow when treating a

patient. > > Just a few thoughts!

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Jane,

My theory on this and I could be wrong as wrong can be, but I hope

not, is as follows. Education levels increase, especially medical

education. The field providers are then authorized to perform more

medical procedures. In my dream we would be like mobile clinics.

We would bill for more services rather than just the transports. We

would treat and release many minor illnesses and injuries and bill

for it. If a caller did not truly need treatment or transport after

an exam we would deny them and charge them an office visit for lack

of better term. So we would bill code for more approved procedures,

which in theory would increase income. Hopefully you see where I am

coming from on this. Crazy right?

Under current sytem the Paramedic patch I am getting is as good as

the LP patch. They earn the service no extra money nor in most

services lead to a better check. But someday maybe there will be a

true Paramedic License where we operate more independently than now.

Wow, that was tough. You still trying to make me use my brain.

Oh congrats on getting the EMT-I program at percomonline.com

Oh just to update, I am finishing clinicals and then hopefully will

get my Paramedic. I had some delays with an injury that even kept me

out of work for a couple of months. Still trying to catch up

finacially which slows clinicals even more. But at least the end is

in sight.

OK now hopefully I'll get a sympathy vote that will help make the

beatings milder. LOL.

>

>

> I have a question here, Renny, regarding your statement that

reimbursement rates would increase. How do you figure that? On what

do you base that assumption? Considering the fact that EMS

reimbursements from the primary providers (Medicare, Medicaid, and

even private insurance) are woefully low NOW despite all the requests

and even demands for them to improve to cover the cost of the actual

services provided without avail, how will having college-degreed

Paramedics increase that? I am not sure I follow how one will

inevitably impact the other. When you look at what is happening

right now in our government and in our economy with really no end in

sight to the issues, the pot of money is shrinking, not growing.

When you look at how the money that goes to our senior citizens in

the form of healthcare coverage is most likely going to shrink even

more (and they are our primary clients), that means that hospitals

will also potentially be impacted with reduced reimbursements - my

understanding is that they already are being impacted. Soooooo, if

the kitty is smaller, how will OUR reimbursements increase regardless

of what WE do to improve ourselves?

>

> Jane Dinsmore

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nice theory - one that I have had in my little dreamworld for years. HOWEVER,

it is becoming more and more difficult to get reimbursement for legitimate MICU

transports as time goes on from what I have seen. Without a seat at the

national table to push for EMS getting a bigger piece of the $ pie (and also to

push for change that would lead to an even LARGER piece of the $ pie), we can

envision a " better world " for patient care all we want - but it is doubtful that

we would get it. I don't mean to sound so negative about it - I would LOVE to

see us adopting a preventative and followup care mode which could potentially

SAVE money for taxpayers in the long run. But I don't think us getting more

education will make that happen. I could be wrong too. LOL Who knows???

I am glad to see that you are still " using your brain. " And thanks for the

congrats on the approval for PERCOM to upgrade to offering EMT-Intermediate

level courses. We are very excited.

As for beating????? You don't need beating at all. You should NEVER be beaten

for attempting to think outside of the box and be visionary. However, being

visionary doesn't mean anyone in any positions of power (the ones who hold the

pursestrings) will follow the vision unfortunately.

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l@...: spenair@...: Sun, 15 Feb 2009

20:12:56 +0000Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

Jane,My theory on this and I could be wrong as wrong can be, but I hope not, is

as follows. Education levels increase, especially medical education. The field

providers are then authorized to perform more medical procedures. In my dream

we would be like mobile clinics. We would bill for more services rather than

just the transports. We would treat and release many minor illnesses and

injuries and bill for it. If a caller did not truly need treatment or transport

after an exam we would deny them and charge them an office visit for lack of

better term. So we would bill code for more approved procedures, which in theory

would increase income. Hopefully you see where I am coming from on this. Crazy

right? Under current sytem the Paramedic patch I am getting is as good as the LP

patch. They earn the service no extra money nor in most services lead to a

better check. But someday maybe there will be a true Paramedic License where we

operate more independently than now. Wow, that was tough. You still trying to

make me use my brain. Oh congrats on getting the EMT-I program at

percomonline.com Oh just to update, I am finishing clinicals and then hopefully

will get my Paramedic. I had some delays with an injury that even kept me out of

work for a couple of months. Still trying to catch up finacially which slows

clinicals even more. But at least the end is in sight. OK now hopefully I'll get

a sympathy vote that will help make the beatings milder. LOL.>> > I

have a question here, Renny, regarding your statement that reimbursement rates

would increase. How do you figure that? On what do you base that assumption?

Considering the fact that EMS reimbursements from the primary providers

(Medicare, Medicaid, and even private insurance) are woefully low NOW despite

all the requests and even demands for them to improve to cover the cost of the

actual services provided without avail, how will having college-degreed

Paramedics increase that? I am not sure I follow how one will inevitably impact

the other. When you look at what is happening right now in our government and in

our economy with really no end in sight to the issues, the pot of money is

shrinking, not growing. When you look at how the money that goes to our senior

citizens in the form of healthcare coverage is most likely going to shrink even

more (and they are our primary clients), that means that hospitals will also

potentially be impacted with reduced reimbursements - my understanding is that

they already are being impacted. Soooooo, if the kitty is smaller, how will OUR

reimbursements increase regardless of what WE do to improve ourselves? > >

Jane Dinsmore> >

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Thats what I have gathered from my mentors. We definitly need to

organize but if those of you with influence and experience have not

succeeded it worrys me that those of us newer to the field will have

even less sucess. It would be nice ( uh oh I'm dreaming again ) if

we could all join forces at least for a while and put away our in

fighting ( paid vs volly, fire vs non fire, transfer vs 911, rural vs

city, etc ) so we would be able to make some noise. Might be funny,

if it ever happened, we might forget about why we fought each other

if we got some victorys for all.

I definitly understand the ones with the money not seeing and

following the vision, part of the reason my Full time job is Pecos

County instead of Presidio where I live. Hate the commute but at

least I feel appreciated as well as get compensated pretty well.

>

>

> Nice theory - one that I have had in my little dreamworld for

years. HOWEVER, it is becoming more and more difficult to get

reimbursement for legitimate MICU transports as time goes on from

what I have seen. Without a seat at the national table to push for

EMS getting a bigger piece of the $ pie (and also to push for change

that would lead to an even LARGER piece of the $ pie), we can

envision a " better world " for patient care all we want - but it is

doubtful that we would get it. I don't mean to sound so negative

about it - I would LOVE to see us adopting a preventative and

followup care mode which could potentially SAVE money for taxpayers

in the long run. But I don't think us getting more education will

make that happen. I could be wrong too. LOL Who knows???

> I am glad to see that you are still " using your brain. " And thanks

for the congrats on the approval for PERCOM to upgrade to offering

EMT-Intermediate level courses. We are very excited.

>

> As for beating????? You don't need beating at all. You should

NEVER be beaten for attempting to think outside of the box and be

visionary. However, being visionary doesn't mean anyone in any

positions of power (the ones who hold the pursestrings) will follow

the vision unfortunately.

>

> Jane Dinsmore

>

[Guest guest]

I agee with you, Renny. And I think we have come full circle pretty much in

this conversation on the list. LOLOL

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l@...: spenair@...: Sun, 15 Feb 2009

22:01:08 +0000Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

Thats what I have gathered from my mentors. We definitly need to organize but if

those of you with influence and experience have not succeeded it worrys me that

those of us newer to the field will have even less sucess. It would be nice ( uh

oh I'm dreaming again ) if we could all join forces at least for a while and put

away our in fighting ( paid vs volly, fire vs non fire, transfer vs 911, rural

vs city, etc ) so we would be able to make some noise. Might be funny, if it

ever happened, we might forget about why we fought each other if we got some

victorys for all. I definitly understand the ones with the money not seeing and

following the vision, part of the reason my Full time job is Pecos County

instead of Presidio where I live. Hate the commute but at least I feel

appreciated as well as get compensated pretty well. >> > Nice

theory - one that I have had in my little dreamworld for years. HOWEVER, it is

becoming more and more difficult to get reimbursement for legitimate MICU

transports as time goes on from what I have seen. Without a seat at the national

table to push for EMS getting a bigger piece of the $ pie (and also to push for

change that would lead to an even LARGER piece of the $ pie), we can envision a

" better world " for patient care all we want - but it is doubtful that we would

get it. I don't mean to sound so negative about it - I would LOVE to see us

adopting a preventative and followup care mode which could potentially SAVE

money for taxpayers in the long run. But I don't think us getting more education

will make that happen. I could be wrong too. LOL Who knows???> I am glad to see

that you are still " using your brain. " And thanks for the congrats on the

approval for PERCOM to upgrade to offering EMT-Intermediate level courses. We

are very excited.> > As for beating????? You don't need beating at all. You

should NEVER be beaten for attempting to think outside of the box and be

visionary. However, being visionary doesn't mean anyone in any positions of

power (the ones who hold the pursestrings) will follow the vision

unfortunately.> > Jane Dinsmore>

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[Guest guest]

True.

In fact I think the past week is the most messages I have ever seen

on here in such a short time. It is fun, educational, and at times

frustrating. But all the same seeing discourse taking place is great.

It does give me insight to the mindset of people that work different

environments, those in charge, the educators, the students, etc.

>> > Nice theory - one that I have

had in my little dreamworld for years. HOWEVER, it is becoming more

and more difficult to get reimbursement for legitimate MICU

transports as time goes on from what I have seen. Without a seat at

the national table to push for EMS getting a bigger piece of the $

pie (and also to push for change that would lead to an even LARGER

piece of the $ pie), we can envision a " better world " for patient

care all we want - but it is doubtful that we would get it. I don't

mean to sound so negative about it - I would LOVE to see us adopting

a preventative and followup care mode which could potentially SAVE

money for taxpayers in the long run. But I don't think us getting

more education will make that happen. I could be wrong too. LOL Who

knows???> I am glad to see that you are still " using your brain. " And

thanks for the congrats on the approval for PERCOM to upgrade to

offering EMT-Intermediate level courses. We are very excited.> > As

for beating????? You don't need beating at all. You should NEVER be

beaten for attempting to think outside of the box and be visionary.

However, being visionary doesn't mean anyone in any positions of

power (the ones who hold the pursestrings) will follow the vision

unfortunately.> > Jane Dinsmore>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.

> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?

ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone else's opinions.

But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get anywhere. EMS

folks need to be THINKING. EMS folks need to be reading the documentation of

things like the proposed changes in education and certification levels, thinking

about how it will affect THEM and THEIR communities, asking questions, and

voicing their opinions in public forums and to the people who make the decisions

above us. EMS folks need to read the GETAC meeting documents even if they are

not going to attend, looking for issues that affect them, reading the text of

proposed rule changes and GIVING THEM SOME THOUGHT. Even if you can't make a

meeting, you can voice your opinions directly to Maxie Bishop by e-mail - just

sign your e-mails to make your opinion something official that can weigh in on

the discussion. EMS folks need to be looking for ways to JOIN together on

issues where there is common ground and start doing productive and constructive

things to make our profession move forward, not backward. And this list server

can be a very frustrating place, as you said. But discussions like these draw

attention to the issues at hand. It definitely has its place...

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l@...: spenair@...: Sun, 15 Feb 2009

22:07:47 +0000Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

True. In fact I think the past week is the most messages I have ever seen on

here in such a short time. It is fun, educational, and at times frustrating. But

all the same seeing discourse taking place is great. It does give me insight to

the mindset of people that work different environments, those in charge, the

educators, the students, etc. >> > Nice

theory - one that I have had in my little dreamworld for years. HOWEVER, it is

becoming more and more difficult to get reimbursement for legitimate MICU

transports as time goes on from what I have seen. Without a seat at the national

table to push for EMS getting a bigger piece of the $ pie (and also to push for

change that would lead to an even LARGER piece of the $ pie), we can envision a

" better world " for patient care all we want - but it is doubtful that we would

get it. I don't mean to sound so negative about it - I would LOVE to see us

adopting a preventative and followup care mode which could potentially SAVE

money for taxpayers in the long run. But I don't think us getting more education

will make that happen. I could be wrong too. LOL Who knows???> I am glad to see

that you are still " using your brain. " And thanks for the congrats on the

approval for PERCOM to upgrade to offering EMT-Intermediate level courses. We

are very excited.> > As for beating????? You don't need beating at all. You

should NEVER be beaten for attempting to think outside of the box and be

visionary. However, being visionary doesn't mean anyone in any positions of

power (the ones who hold the pursestrings) will follow the vision

unfortunately.> > Jane Dinsmore> > > > > > > >

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[Guest guest]

On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

texas.paramedic@...> said:

>

> You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone else's

opinions.

> But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get anywhere.

Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true communications taking

place. There is little to no communications taking place in this discussion.

It's just narrow-minded turf quibbling by people who care only about their piece

of the pie, and have no interest at all in the future of the profession.

Everyone gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud of

themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more enlightened than

they were before.

Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not everyone's opinion is

valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to be heard or considered. Because this

isn't about individuals. This is about the future of the profession. And if

some people have to bend over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

Rob

[Guest guest]

I hate to say it, but your right Rob... we do have to move the EMS

profession forward. To say not everones opinion counts or needs to

be heard? Okay so who and how do we decide who gets to put their

opinon in? What filter do you plan on using? If your over 50 your

opinion don't count? If your female your opinion dont count? If

your not of my skin color your opinion dont count? Team? Not much

of a team in my understanding of what a team is. A team is made up

of the strong and the weak for equal representation. I'm all for

creating a team to further the EMS profession, but to limit it to

only certain people...not much of a team. There is no I in teiam!!

Oh damn, look, there is an I... just that crazy spelling crap going

on in the world...

>

> On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

said:

> >

> > You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone

else's opinions.

> > But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get

anywhere.

>

> Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true

communications taking place. There is little to no communications

taking place in this discussion. It's just narrow-minded turf

quibbling by people who care only about their piece of the pie, and

have no interest at all in the future of the profession. Everyone

gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud of

themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more

enlightened than they were before.

>

> Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not

everyone's opinion is valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to be

heard or considered. Because this isn't about individuals. This is

about the future of the profession. And if some people have to bend

over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

>

> Rob

>

[Guest guest]

I might counter that the opinion of the masses don't matter anyway simply

because of the inability to go from meeting to meeting on your own dime to

be heard and then whoever (GETAC, RAC, DSHS, NREMT) will probably do what

they want anyway (as in the Accreditation stuff). If you are not in the

click or in employed in a position by the right organization the cost burden

is on you (both in time and money) most working EMS folks cannot take time

away from work plus pay for the multiple trips to multiple meetings each

year, especially the ones that are out of state, to have your opinions

heard. Couple that with the widespread apathy (especially in the fire

service) of the people on the streets and it is no wonder we do not have a

real voice in these big decisions.

Just my 2 cents, Let the stones fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lee

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of medic4319

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:44 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

I hate to say it, but your right Rob... we do have to move the EMS

profession forward. To say not everones opinion counts or needs to

be heard? Okay so who and how do we decide who gets to put their

opinon in? What filter do you plan on using? If your over 50 your

opinion don't count? If your female your opinion dont count? If

your not of my skin color your opinion dont count? Team? Not much

of a team in my understanding of what a team is. A team is made up

of the strong and the weak for equal representation. I'm all for

creating a team to further the EMS profession, but to limit it to

only certain people...not much of a team. There is no I in teiam!!

Oh damn, look, there is an I... just that crazy spelling crap going

on in the world...

>

> On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

said:

> >

> > You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone

else's opinions.

> > But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get

anywhere.

>

> Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true

communications taking place. There is little to no communications

taking place in this discussion. It's just narrow-minded turf

quibbling by people who care only about their piece of the pie, and

have no interest at all in the future of the profession. Everyone

gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud of

themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more

enlightened than they were before.

>

> Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not

everyone's opinion is valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to be

heard or considered. Because this isn't about individuals. This is

about the future of the profession. And if some people have to bend

over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

>

> Rob

>

[Guest guest]

You DO have a very good point, Lee. I used to be able to go to just about EVERY

meeting and try to be heard when someone else could pay the bill. But since I

have to foot the bill for the last couple of years, it has definitely slowed

down MY ability to voice my opinion and those of others who came to me to ask me

to voice theirs with mine. Soooooo, unfortunately, your observation is a very

real issue.

Jane

To: texasems-l

From: L@...

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:09:18 -0600

Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

I might counter that the opinion of the masses don't matter anyway simply

because of the inability to go from meeting to meeting on your own dime to

be heard and then whoever (GETAC, RAC, DSHS, NREMT) will probably do what

they want anyway (as in the Accreditation stuff). If you are not in the

click or in employed in a position by the right organization the cost burden

is on you (both in time and money) most working EMS folks cannot take time

away from work plus pay for the multiple trips to multiple meetings each

year, especially the ones that are out of state, to have your opinions

heard. Couple that with the widespread apathy (especially in the fire

service) of the people on the streets and it is no wonder we do not have a

real voice in these big decisions.

Just my 2 cents, Let the stones fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lee

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of medic4319

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:44 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

I hate to say it, but your right Rob... we do have to move the EMS

profession forward. To say not everones opinion counts or needs to

be heard? Okay so who and how do we decide who gets to put their

opinon in? What filter do you plan on using? If your over 50 your

opinion don't count? If your female your opinion dont count? If

your not of my skin color your opinion dont count? Team? Not much

of a team in my understanding of what a team is. A team is made up

of the strong and the weak for equal representation. I'm all for

creating a team to further the EMS profession, but to limit it to

only certain people...not much of a team. There is no I in teiam!!

Oh damn, look, there is an I... just that crazy spelling crap going

on in the world...

>

> On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

said:

> >

> > You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone

else's opinions.

> > But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get

anywhere.

>

> Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true

communications taking place. There is little to no communications

taking place in this discussion. It's just narrow-minded turf

quibbling by people who care only about their piece of the pie, and

have no interest at all in the future of the profession. Everyone

gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud of

themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more

enlightened than they were before.

>

> Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not

everyone's opinion is valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to be

heard or considered. Because this isn't about individuals. This is

about the future of the profession. And if some people have to bend

over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

>

> Rob

>

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday, February 17, 2009 08:43, " medic4319 " s.robinson@...>

said:

> I hate to say it, but your right Rob... we do have to move the EMS

> profession forward. To say not everones opinion counts or needs to

> be heard?

Excellent observations, ! Perhaps I was off by saying that all voices do

not need to be heard. What I ultimately meant was that all voices do not need

to be considered. In other words, just because a group or individual has an

opinion does not mean that the profession as a whole has to strive to placate

them. Heck, I have an opinion, yet many hear clearly do not believe that it is

worth listening to, right? How many people have we already heard tell me that I

should just shut up? So reality number one here is that we cannot possibly

please everyone. None of this is my theory. It's just a simple fact of group

dynamics (there's those useless psych and sociology courses coming up again!).

Some people's opinions are going to end up counting, and some are not. Nobody

wants to be " that guy " , whose opinion doesn't count. More simple human nature.

But that is the way it is always going to be in any group effort.

So how do we decide, you ask? That's the easiest question of all. And you

address it in your next quote...

> Team? Not much

> of a team in my understanding of what a team is. A team is made up

> of the strong and the weak for equal representation. I'm all for

> creating a team to further the EMS profession, but to limit it to

> only certain people...not much of a team. There is no I in teiam!!

Exactly. Well, sort of. Your definition of a team is a bit off. Equal

representation for the strong and weak is a theoretical component of a

democracy, not of a team. A team is a group of people who choose to come

together for a common purpose. And a team is only as strong as it's weakest

link. Consequently, teams will add and subtract personnel in order to

strengthen their potential. My short arse has never been on a basketball team

that was anxious to keep him around, because quite honestly, I suck at

basketball and I hold the team back. I'm okay with that. Sometimes life isn't

" fair " , whatever that means. A basketball team is under no obligation to keep a

liability around just to make him feel better. And EMS is not the Special

Olympics. We're not all winners. There are a lot of lame players in this game,

and many of them are holding the team back.

So yes, there is no " I " in team. It's not about individuals. It's not even

about the group. It is about the GOAL of the group. And if we all have to die

to achieve the goal, then that is what a team is supposed to do.

Our goal here is the advancement of the profession, to establish EMS as a

destination that people seek out as a long term commitment, not as a temp job on

the way to nursing school, a free pass to lights and sirens, an easy job for

people with no education, or a way to get hired as a fireman. So long as we are

nothing more than a means to an end, we are not a profession. Whine as much as

you like about pay, and benefits, and reimbursement, and respect, and more

protocols, and all the other things that elude us, but they will continue to

elude us until the real team players and leaders realise that it is time to

trade all those individuals, who are not on board with the team's goals, off for

some future draft options.

There is no " I " in team. I couldn't have said it better myself. And if your

(you in the generic sense, not you personally) primary concern in life is how

educational and professional changes are going to affect YOU, instead of how

they will affect the future of the profession, then you are an " I " , and we

should not fear or lament losing you from the team.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Great point, Lee! And this is further illustration that this is a POLITICAL

process. Despite the promises of democracy, politics is not necessarily an

equally representative game. Call up your Congressman or Senator's office with

a stupid idea and see how long it takes him or her to call you back. It's not

going to happen, because not all voices need to be heard, and not all opinions

count.

However, that is not to say that only the stellar ideas get through the

political process. There are plenty of politicians out there who cater to the

kooky special interests simply as a means of building and maintaining a power

base. Their ideas suck, and they do not serve the interests of the nation as a

whole, yet the politician will pander to them anyhow for his or her own selfish

interests. Do we have political representatives in EMS who are like that?

Sure! Think the fire lobby. Think the Ambulance Association. They don't care

about EMS as a profession. They care only about EMS as a means to further their

own agenda. Consequently, what we end up with is gridlock, just like we often

have in Congress. Instead of the best ideas floating to the top to further the

interests of the profession, all the EMS politicians get bogged down in trying

to make everyone happy. Consequently, instead of the profession progressing, it

only continues to tread water with more and more barnacles growing on it to suck

the life out of it.

This is not a democracy. This is a profession with goals. We don't need

everybody's voice to progress the profession. We need the strongest, brightest,

and most unselfish voices to lead the profession for the good of the profession.

Those people will find a way to actively participate in the process. Those who

do not are not the ones we need.

Rob

On Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:09, " Lee "

L@...> said:

> I might counter that the opinion of the masses don't matter anyway simply

> because of the inability to go from meeting to meeting on your own dime to

> be heard and then whoever (GETAC, RAC, DSHS, NREMT) will probably do what

> they want anyway (as in the Accreditation stuff). If you are not in the

> click or in employed in a position by the right organization the cost burden

> is on you (both in time and money) most working EMS folks cannot take time

> away from work plus pay for the multiple trips to multiple meetings each

> year, especially the ones that are out of state, to have your opinions

> heard. Couple that with the widespread apathy (especially in the fire

> service) of the people on the streets and it is no wonder we do not have a

> real voice in these big decisions.

[Guest guest]

I'll answer that.

If your default position is " What's wrong with the way we've always done

it? " ...

.....your opinion doesn't count.

medic4319 wrote:

>

> I hate to say it, but your right Rob... we do have to move the EMS

> profession forward. To say not everones opinion counts or needs to

> be heard? Okay so who and how do we decide who gets to put their

> opinon in? What filter do you plan on using? If your over 50 your

> opinion don't count? If your female your opinion dont count? If

> your not of my skin color your opinion dont count? Team? Not much

> of a team in my understanding of what a team is. A team is made up

> of the strong and the weak for equal representation. I'm all for

> creating a team to further the EMS profession, but to limit it to

> only certain people...not much of a team. There is no I in teiam!!

> Oh damn, look, there is an I... just that crazy spelling crap going

> on in the world...

>

>

>

>

> >

> > On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

> said:

> > >

> > > You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone

> else's opinions.

> > > But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get

> anywhere.

> >

> > Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true

> communications taking place. There is little to no communications

> taking place in this discussion. It's just narrow-minded turf

> quibbling by people who care only about their piece of the pie, and

> have no interest at all in the future of the profession. Everyone

> gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud of

> themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more

> enlightened than they were before.

> >

> > Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not

> everyone's opinion is valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to be

> heard or considered. Because this isn't about individuals. This is

> about the future of the profession. And if some people have to bend

> over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

> >

> > Rob

> >

>

>

--

Grayson

www.kellygrayson.com

[Guest guest]

I have to disagree with you on that, .  Any time you want to make a change,

that's the FIRST question that should be asked.

 

Change simply for the sake of change will frequently just make things worse. 

You need to identify what's wrong before you can develop something better.

>

> I hate to say it, but your right Rob... we do have to move the EMS

> profession forward. To say not everones opinion counts or needs to

> be heard? Okay so who and how do we decide who gets to put their

> opinon in? What filter do you plan on using? If your over 50 your

> opinion don't count? If your female your opinion dont count? If

> your not of my skin color your opinion dont count? Team? Not much

> of a team in my understanding of what a team is. A team is made up

> of the strong and the weak for equal representation. I'm all for

> creating a team to further the EMS profession, but to limit it to

> only certain people...not much of a team. There is no I in teiam!!

> Oh damn, look, there is an I... just that crazy spelling crap going

> on in the world...

>

>

>

>

> >

> > On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

> said:

> > >

> > > You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone

> else's opinions.

> > > But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get

> anywhere.

> >

> > Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true

> communications taking place. There is little to no communications

> taking place in this discussion. It's just narrow-minded turf

> quibbling by people who care only about their piece of the pie, and

> have no interest at all in the future of the profession. Everyone

> gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud of

> themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more

> enlightened than they were before.

> >

> > Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not

> everyone's opinion is valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to be

> heard or considered. Because this isn't about individuals. This is

> about the future of the profession. And if some people have to bend

> over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

> >

> > Rob

> >

>

>

--

Grayson

www.kellygrayson. com

[Guest guest]

Has video conferencing been tried for these meetings? Perhaps it

would allow more to be involved. Just turn on comp and log in.

Again I may be way off base, but it seems if big business executives

can handle business we could have meetings this way.

Renny

> >

> > On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

> said:

> > >

> > > You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone

> else's opinions.

> > > But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get

> anywhere.

> >

> > Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true

> communications taking place. There is little to no communications

> taking place in this discussion. It's just narrow-minded turf

> quibbling by people who care only about their piece of the pie, and

> have no interest at all in the future of the profession. Everyone

> gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud

of

> themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more

> enlightened than they were before.

> >

> > Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not

> everyone's opinion is valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to be

> heard or considered. Because this isn't about individuals. This is

> about the future of the profession. And if some people have to bend

> over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

> >

> > Rob

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Renny,

Yes....2 or 3 meetings ago, but the location of the meeting couldn't handle the

needed bandwidth to do the video teleconferencing.  Several of the GETAC folks

are working to find a way to do this, hopefully this can be accomplished at the

Omni meeting site.

Dudley

Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

Has video conferencing been tried for these meetings? Perhaps it

would allow more to be involved. Just turn on comp and log in.

Again I may be way off base, but it seems if big business executives

can handle business we could have meetings this way.

Renny

> >

> > On Sunday, February 15, 2009 16:27, " Jane Dinsmore "

> said:

> > >

> > > You are right there too. We may not always agree with everyone

> else's opinions.

> > > But the discussions are necessary if we are EVER going to get

> anywhere.

> >

> > Discussion gets us nowhere, so long as there is no true

> communications taking place. There is little to no communications

> taking place in this discussion. It's just narrow-minded turf

> quibbling by people who care only about their piece of the pie, and

> have no interest at all in the future of the profession. Everyone

> gets their say, then they go back to their own little world, proud

of

> themselves for having gotten involved in the fight, but no more

> enlightened than they were before.

> >

> > Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings, but the fact is that not

> everyone's opinion is valuable. Not everyone's opinion needs to

be

> heard or considered. Because this isn't about individuals. This is

> about the future of the profession. And if some people have to bend

> over and take one for the team, I'm okay with that.

> >

> > Rob

> >

>

>