College Medic vs. Non College Medic

February 11, 2009

On Wednesday, February 11, 2009 23:44, " Edwin Lard " ewlard@...> said:

> I think that this whole discussion is silly. Education only takes you so

> far...

And without that education, you will never get that far. That is the point.

> ...I would take a para who has four years of experience over one

> with four years of schooling. Sure, with four years of school you will be

> able to regurgitate some serious information, but thats not going to do

> anything for me when you show up to my mass casualty and freak out because

> you lack the experience to function in adverse climates.

I'm afraid I don't see any value in your point here, Ed. You're comparing a new

graduate to a medic with four years of experience? How exactly does that

reinforce your point that we don't need all that book learnin'? Why not do it

this way: Commpare a medic with four years of paramedic education AND four

years of experience to your medic with 10 weeks of paramedic training and four

years of experience. Now which one do you think is going to be the better

medical practitioner?

> They dont teach

> such things in school and stress inoculation can only be obtained from one

> source, and all of that school isnt it.

So... in your neck of the woods, graduates of college programmes aren't allowed

to get field experience? If that is the case, then I suppose I understand why

you may have come to the mistaken conclusion you have arrived at. Otherwise,

I'm scratching my head here.

Rob

February 12, 2009

Man o' man!! What has this turned into? I never said an education

was not necessary or a good idea. I spend more time in books and

online researching ideas, questions, new drugs, etc., then I do

anything else. If someone in my company has a question, they come to

me cause they know I am always reading, learning and trying to better

not only myself, but the people around me as well. I choose to

educate myself on a daily basis, but how I choose to do it... well

that's up to me. Yes college CAN be a good thing, but to say college

in general will make you better because it gives you a foundation to

grow from? If you've ever owned a home you know foundations crack

and cause lots of damage that have to be repaired! The general

comment that a college education is best, well I have to disagree.

College CAN be a good start, but to mandate it...Just take a look at

the banking industry and what's going on in our economy. A college

education didn't make them any smarter! If there is a EMT / Medic

that says they know every thing... RUN! On my wall at my training

center I have a motto... Knowledge is Power ~ Never stop Learning! I

live and die by that.

As for getting rid of THOSE people... most of you were at one time

one of THOSE people. Starting off not knowing if this was all it was

cracked up to be. THOSE people still have to get CE hours to renew.

THOSE people still had to take a test and pass it to get their cert.

THOSE people are still certified by the state and now National

Registry to do what they can to save your butt at any given point in

your life. So lets not knock to hard THOSE people!?!? I don't know

of one patient, or their family, that has stopped me and asked if I

have a college degree or did I go to a certificate program? It's

usually in the worst case don't let them die and in most cases it's

thank you for doing what you do. Yes I do get thanked quite a bit in

the area that I work. I know it's not the norm in the industry, but

I like to think it's that little extra I do by talking with the

patient and their families and helping them understand and taking the

time to explain what's happening and going to happen that really

makes a difference. Compassion... something you can't get at a

college or anywhere else for that fact. You either have it or you

don't. I treat each patient the way I would want my own mother to be

treated!

I again after reading all the post I have read the goods and bads of

not having a college eduation. If you choose to go to college and

educate yourself, GREAT! I give you a pat on the back. If you choose

not to... well, I not gonna degrade you that's for sure. Prove to me

that a college education to be a Paramedic will improve the overall

patient care and I will never say another word about it, but all you

have to do is look around and there are college eduated people every

where that can't even take care of themselves, let alone the nation,

banking industry, police departments, etc... Again, I'm not against

someone bettering themselves by learnig everything they can, but to

say a college is the only way... B.S.!

Rob, I do take it personal when someone with a college education

tries to tell me that I lack the knowledge to understand or to

comment on a subject. You can try to butter it up however you want,

but it's obvious where you stand. I dare you, or anyone for that

matter, to go out and tell the thousands of Paramedics that since

they don't have a college degree that their opinions don't count or

matter. I pretty sure the response you would get is worse that what

I have said and you take your life in your own hands. You might need

one of those people or one of those uneducated Paramedics... Damn the

luck...

> > >

> > > I think that this whole discussion is silly. Education only

takes

> > you so

> > > far, and the purpose for the education is to prepare you for

what

> > is out

> > > there. As a paramedic, our schooling prepares us for those bad

> > things to

> > > come so that we may have a positive impact. That is only

> > preparation,

> > > whether it be in a chop-shop class or a college program. It is

> > what we do

> > > next that will shape our skills as a clinician. Where we choose

to

> > > work and

> > > get our experience will be the defining factor in our skills.

So,

> > I guess

> > > my point it that a lot of 'training' gives you a person with a

lot

> > of

> > > training. I would take a para who has four years of experience

> > over one

> > > with four years of schooling. Sure, with four years of school

you

> > will be

> > > able to regurgitate some serious information, but thats not

going

> > to do

> > > anything for me when you show up to my mass casualty and freak

out

> > because

> > > you lack the experience to function in adverse climates. They

dont

> > teach

> > > such things in school and stress inoculation can only be

obtained

> > from one

> > > source, and all of that school isnt it. I'm a believer in

education

> > > though,

> > > I have a BS. I even graduated with honors, but that really

isnt

> > what has

> > > gotten me where i am now. I have my job because of my ability

to

> > command

> > > and manage when things go very wrong. I didnt learn that in

> > school, I

> > > learned that on the street with guidance from my colleagues

who

> > stood

> > > by to

> > > help me learn. I believe that truly, the best education comes

not

> > for the

> > > EMS teacher in the schoolhouse, but the para on the street

that

> > just got

> > > assigned to be your FTO.

> > >

> > > As far as people taking the EMS community seriously comparable

to

> > > nursing in

> > > regards to pay. Well, that will never happen. Pay will never

be

> > equal, and

> > > the salaries will never rise to a level that warrants the need

for

> > a four

> > > year degree. Its a simple reason and can be summed up by an old

> > > saying: why

> > > buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. I think

whoever

> > made this

> > > up had something else in mind, but it still applies in this

case.

> > > There are

> > > no 'volunteer nursing departments', and those are as likely as

six

> > figure

> > > paramedic jobs. As long as state and local governments can get

> > someone to

> > > do the work for 'free' they will not be willing to compensate

for

> > such

> > > positions.

> > >

> > > There are always exceptions and i'm sure that someone will tell

me

> > about a

> > > nurse they know who is a volunteer. I know of at least one

> > paramedic who

> > > makes over six figures, so there, i'll throw a wrench in my

own

> > thoery. My

> > > thoughts refer to the big picture, not the samll exceptions.

> > >

> > > Edwin Lard

> > > Kabul, Afghanistan

> > > DSS/HTP, Paramedic

> > > Ø§Ø°Ø§ ÙƒØ§Ù† Ø§Ù„Ù„Ù‡ Ù…Ø¹Ù†Ø§ ÙÙ…Ù† Ø§Ù„Ø°ÙŠ ÙŠÙ…ÙƒÙ† Ø§Ù†

> > ÙŠÙƒÙˆÙ† Ø¶Ø¯Ù†Ø§

> > >

February 12, 2009

Lets go one farther and if you want to require future paramedics to

have to take a collge class then why not require all insrtucters to

have at least 3 years of 911 field exprieance or more and to have a

college degree in order to teach. Then there will be no rural EMS

services for those towns in the middle of no where.

February 12, 2009

To Jane: A-Woman (now can I have her back now that I gave her to you?

To Kenny: You haven't changed a bit, still trying to get things free, even

Assassinations! You get what you pay for Kenny, go c the Seal, more discreet and

worth the price. LOL

To Gene/Dudley: Remember them, in the corner of a dark, dank closet, I still

have the blue windbreaker (remember those?) c the white/red sleeves c an EMT

patch and IV Skills/Airway Mgmt rockers underneath the patch (never achieved the

Cardiovascular? one) and the short white lab-looking jacket (remember those?) c

the EMT-Special Skills patch c a MASTpants???(what was that all about?)rocker

under that patch.

To Lee and the masses of the current discussion on

quality/distant/farmer/accredited/tech school education my quick 2cents: Agree c

ya Lee, as I do most of the time on what has been tried, worked or failed. We

have come a long way in EMS and many directions since the days of the Civil

War horse-drawn ambulance, funeral home station wagon/hearses, MASH units, Civil

defense, into 60's CPR and the birth of modern day EMS LA County Johhny & Roy, c

some of our arguments being over some 15-20 yrs old, believe it or not, but my

opinion is what will change and need to change/improve will come from the core

of educators, field personnel, and those who have and still dedicate their lives

to EMS in due course as it has over the yrs by good

intentioned/quality/dedicated professionals (educated/non-educated,

accreditted/non-accreditted) individuals on this list and out there in

Terilingua (ya ain't learned til ya drank, chili-cookoffed, and sang c Willie) @

the

Terilingua Chili cook-off! and in Mart (we miss ya Babe), and the many other

great volly/paid/county/city/fire...services that ECA's thru Paramedics serve

on. I remember another Gene (not you Gandy, but your still up there c

him) Weatherall that had this promise and dedication where He led the state of

Texas, (miss ya Gene).Talk about your run on sentences. I've seen us go from

EMT classes in the back of the fire station/ city hall to Bachelor degreed

programs in EMS, seen the tech schools taken over by accreditted colleges, it

may be slow in coming, but as mentioned before unlike the P.D./Fire/MD/RN

services we're comparing ourselves too, we are still relatively a young servcie.

WHEW, quick 2cents ought to see me when I really get going. gda

Don Abernathy

________________________________

To: texasems-l

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:15:32 PM

Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

WAIT WAIT WAIT! I have a brainstorm!! !!!!!!!!! !!! If the whole point of

requiring training programs to be accredited is to improve patient care then

let's make a new rule that says all EMS providers in Texas must be

accredited by CAAS to answer 911 calls and all air medical providers must be

CAMTS accredited too. Wait, I think that one was tried and those with the

biggest pocketbooks and the loudest mouths (i.e. bully's) won that one so I

guess that, on the grand scale, patient care really isn't the issue with

accreditation is it? You don't see too many college program folks making

comments about the accreditation issue, wonder why that is?

Lee

Re: Re: College

Medic vs. Non College Medic>> This is *not* a " my program can beat up your

program " argument. This is> about *what's best for the profession.* >> And

like it or not, both for our own advancement and to give us> legitimacy

among the rest of the health care professions, a college> education is the

only way to go.>> mpholland36 wrote:> >> > Feels more like a civil war ... I

really don't understand why it's so> > important for some of you to feel

like you are better than other> > medics. It's the tired old argument of

who's better ... Rural vs> > Urban, Paid vs Volunteer, 911 vs Transfer, and

now, College-Educated> > vs Vocational. What seems to be showing, besides

your backsides, is> > the " I'm better than you " attitudes that divide a

profession. I was> > taught as a kid that the person who brags on

himself/herself and> > thinks they are God's gift, is usually the only one

who will do so!> > I used to think we were all on the same team, with the

same goals.> > I've obviously been proven wrong.> >> > > > >> > > Exactly what I was thinking and we didn't even have to

stage> > anything.> > >> > > >>> 2/11/2009 11:38 AM >>>> > >>

> >> > > This is exactly why we don't get any respect, period. We don't> >

even respect> > > each other.> > >> > > Looks like the computer version of

the Jerry Springer show.> > >> > >> > >> >

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > ________> >

>

_________> > >> > > However, here is something to consider.... ..excuse me

for allowing> > this to> > > be long, but if you have read so far, what is

another 2 minutes..... > > >> > > Building self respect> > > Building Self

Respect - Respecting yourself really is a win-win> > situation> > > for all

concerned. Self-respect, is a little bit like self> > confidence; you can> >

> decide to switch it on, or leave it switched off. If you respect> >

yourself> > > then others will start to respect you - they really will. You

must> > respect> > > yourself before others will respect you!> > >> > > What

is Self Respect? - With self respect, we like ourselves> > because of who> >

> we are and not because of what we can or cannot do. It is to have> > pride

and> > > knowledge of one's own worth, to value one's self. To have due> >

respect for> > > oneself, one's character, and one's conduct. Respect is

earned,> > not given. Those> > > with self-respect are less prone to regret,

blame, guilt, shame,> > and> > > secretive behavior.> > > It is the

cornerstone on which many other attributes are built such> > as> > >

honesty, confidence, and integrity.> > > Importance of self respect - It

follows that if we have no self> > respect it> > > is difficult to respect

others. These positive emotions such as> > self esteem,> > > self

confidence, and self respect are part of the whole sense of> > our self> > >

image.Having self respect allows us to be more accepting of> > others'

differences, > > > to see people as people regardless of culture, class or

creed and> > to> > > understand the golden rule, " Do to others as you would

have them do> > to you " .> > > No self respect - People with no self respect

find it difficult to> > have> > > respect for others, for property,

boundaries, animals and for> > values and morals.> > > If we have low self

esteem and little respect for ourselves it> > follows that> > > our presence

around others tends to be filled with a need for> > attention. We> > >

'need' others to fill our emotional vacuum and then we blame them> > when

they> > > leave us feeling unfilled. Only we ourselves are able to top up

our> > emotional> > > tanks. Others can help us to feel good about ourselves

but unless> > we actually> > > take it on board as a personal belief,

actually make it our own,> > then we are> > > left feeling empty.> > >

referenced by Helen - editor of Consisten Parenting> > Advice.com>

> > So now that you have new information, what are you going to do with> >

it?> > > Respectfully, > > > Ron > > > non-college paramedic> > >

************ **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in> > just 2

easy> > > steps!> > > >

(http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100000075x121855 0342x1201216770/ aol? >

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26hmpgID=62% 26bcd=fe> > > bemailfooterNO62) > > >> > >> > > [Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]> > >> >> >>> -- > Grayson>

www.kellygrayson. com>> [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]>> -- Graysonwww.kellygra yson.com

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync.

http://windowslive. com/howitworks? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ t1_allup_ howitworks_

0220

09

February 12, 2009

Might check the rules again, there are other avenues besides being

affiliated with a college.

Lee

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:56 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>> Can anyone show definitive proof that having National

Accredited college based programs is going to improve patient care?

<<<

With very few exceptions, no one can provide definitive proof that

anything we do improves patient care (and by that I mean outcomes).

One could not even " prove " that any schooling improves patient care

because it would be unethical to conduct such a study. With

alternative definitions of " improves " and " patient care, " one might

be able to find research that suggests a benefit.

And for the sake of clarification, I don't think there is any

proposed rule change or legislation that is mandating that all

paramedic programs must be college-based. I think the rule says they

must be accredited.

Accreditation requires affiliation with a degree-granting institution

but it does not mean that the classes must be taught by the college

faculty or on the college campus.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

February 12, 2009

>>> Might check the rules again, there are other avenues

besides being affiliated with a college. <<<

Lee,

Sorry. I spoke without knowing the full facts (like the flu, there

is a lot of that going around). According to the CAAHEP website, the

sponsorship/affiliation (for paramedic programs only) must be with

either (summarized)

- An accredited post-secondary academic institution

- A foreign post-secondary academic institution approved by CAAHEP

- An accredited hospital, clinic, or medical center which is

affiliated with a post-secondary educational institution or

equivalent, or an accredited graduate medical education program

- A branch of the U.S. Armed Forces or other governmental educational

or medical service which is affiliated with an accredited post-

secondary educational institution

I was mostly correct, which also means I was slightly incorrect.

One other interesting thing I found on that site. The $10,000 figure

floating around as the cost for accreditation is not an up-front

cost; it is the cost for a five-year period. (It is actually

$11,500.) As the site points out if your program serves 25 paramedic

students per year, the per student costs over that time period will

be $92.00.

Thanks for keeping me honest , Lee.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

February 12, 2009

The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for application. However,

that is paid up front. I know most small programs don't have that kind of money

up front, no matter how much it costs per head to recoup it. Just my

thoughts....

However, when I read the general information, I understood it to list THIS fee

as well as an annual fee. Was that changed?

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l@...: kenneth.navarro@...: Thu,

12 Feb 2009 21:10:07 +0000Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non

College Medic

>>>

Might check the rules again, there are other avenues besides being affiliated

with a college. <<

http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_022009

February 12, 2009

It is not all paid up front. You pay this out over a 3 to 5 year period.

Tim

Re: College Medic vs. Non

College Medic

>>>

Might check the rules again, there are other avenues besides being affiliated

with a college. <<

http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_022009

February 12, 2009

>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

As Tim pointed out, it is not paid up front.

The only fees that are required initially are the $1200 Initial

Annual Fee (due with the submission of CAAHEP Application), $250

Initial Application Technology Fee, and the $500 Initial Self -Study

Evaluation Fee. This $750 is due when the self-study is submitted.

The CoAEMSP Executive Director will read each Self-Study, complete an

Executive Summary and forward to a reviewer. At that point, the

program and CoAEMSP will schedule a site visit.

The program will pay the expenses of the on-site visit. As Dr. B.

pointed out, the site-visitors have only modest requirements. The

typical range of expenses is $1500.00 to $2500.00 for a two-day, two-

person on-site visit.

After the site visit is complete, the site visitors will send the

report to the Executive Office. The Program is then placed on the

next JRC-DMS Board meeting for a recommendation.

CAAHEP reports that the process generally takes 6 - 12 months after

initial receipt of the self-study

So the initial fees will range between $3500 and $4500 paid out over

6 to 12 months.

Much different than $10,000 paid all at once.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

February 12, 2009

Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

As Tim pointed out, it is not paid up front.

The only fees that are required initially are the $1200 Initial

Annual Fee (due with the submission of CAAHEP Application), $250

Initial Application Technology Fee, and the $500 Initial Self -Study

Evaluation Fee. This $750 is due when the self-study is submitted.

The CoAEMSP Executive Director will read each Self-Study, complete an

Executive Summary and forward to a reviewer. At that point, the

program and CoAEMSP will schedule a site visit.

The program will pay the expenses of the on-site visit. As Dr. B.

pointed out, the site-visitors have only modest requirements. The

typical range of expenses is $1500.00 to $2500.00 for a two-day, two-

person on-site visit.

After the site visit is complete, the site visitors will send the

report to the Executive Office. The Program is then placed on the

next JRC-DMS Board meeting for a recommendation.

CAAHEP reports that the process generally takes 6 - 12 months after

initial receipt of the self-study

So the initial fees will range between $3500 and $4500 paid out over

6 to 12 months.

Much different than $10,000 paid all at once.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

February 12, 2009

I am sure it wont be the last time we " get each others back " LOL>

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:10 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>> Might check the rules again, there are other avenues

besides being affiliated with a college. <<<

Lee,

Sorry. I spoke without knowing the full facts (like the flu, there

is a lot of that going around). According to the CAAHEP website, the

sponsorship/affiliation (for paramedic programs only) must be with

either (summarized)

- An accredited post-secondary academic institution

- A foreign post-secondary academic institution approved by CAAHEP

- An accredited hospital, clinic, or medical center which is

affiliated with a post-secondary educational institution or

equivalent, or an accredited graduate medical education program

- A branch of the U.S. Armed Forces or other governmental educational

or medical service which is affiliated with an accredited post-

secondary educational institution

I was mostly correct, which also means I was slightly incorrect.

One other interesting thing I found on that site. The $10,000 figure

floating around as the cost for accreditation is not an up-front

cost; it is the cost for a five-year period. (It is actually

$11,500.) As the site points out if your program serves 25 paramedic

students per year, the per student costs over that time period will

be $92.00.

Thanks for keeping me honest , Lee.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

February 12, 2009

375.00 per month for 12 months or about 15.00 per student per month -

first year cost.

" freakin expensive " I dont think so. Find another reason to oppose this.

Now that the facts are out it sounds like the cost is a non issue,

remember some posters started quoting 10,000. per student. Listen to

the facts.

AJL

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lee <@techproservices.net> wrote:

> Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

>

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>

>>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

> application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

>

February 12, 2009

What math class did you take???? Again, it probably isn't an issue when you

get state funding but when you are not, that amount of money is some

important training equipment that will not get replaced.

Those are the facts

Lee

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Alan Lambert

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:53 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

375.00 per month for 12 months or about 15.00 per student per month -

first year cost.

" freakin expensive " I dont think so. Find another reason to oppose this.

Now that the facts are out it sounds like the cost is a non issue,

remember some posters started quoting 10,000. per student. Listen to

the facts.

AJL

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lee <@techproservices.net>

wrote:

> Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

>

> From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ]

On

> Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

>

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>

>>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

> application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

>

February 12, 2009

Application fee 250.

Self study fee 500.

Annual fee 1200.

Site visit 2500.

Total first year 4450.

375 per month, 15.00 per student per month based on a class of 25

AJL

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Lee

L@...> wrote:

> What math class did you take???? Again, it probably isn't an issue when you

> get state funding but when you are not, that amount of money is some

> important training equipment that will not get replaced.

>

> Those are the facts

>

> Lee

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Alan Lambert

> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:53 PM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>

> 375.00 per month for 12 months or about 15.00 per student per month -

> first year cost.

>

> " freakin expensive " I dont think so. Find another reason to oppose this.

>

> Now that the facts are out it sounds like the cost is a non issue,

> remember some posters started quoting 10,000. per student. Listen to

> the facts.

>

> AJL

>

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lee <@techproservices.net>

> wrote:

>> Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

>>

>> From: texasems-l

> [mailto:texasems-l ]

> On

>> Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

>>

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>

>>>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

>> application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

>>

>

February 12, 2009

And the 25 students?

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Alan Lambert

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:09 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

Application fee 250.

Self study fee 500.

Annual fee 1200.

Site visit 2500.

Total first year 4450.

375 per month, 15.00 per student per month based on a class of 25

AJL

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Lee

L@...

> wrote:

> What math class did you take???? Again, it probably isn't an issue when

you

> get state funding but when you are not, that amount of money is some

> important training equipment that will not get replaced.

>

> Those are the facts

>

> Lee

>

> From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ]

On

> Behalf Of Alan Lambert

> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:53 PM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>

> 375.00 per month for 12 months or about 15.00 per student per month -

> first year cost.

>

> " freakin expensive " I dont think so. Find another reason to oppose this.

>

> Now that the facts are out it sounds like the cost is a non issue,

> remember some posters started quoting 10,000. per student. Listen to

> the facts.

>

> AJL

>

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lee <@techproservices.net>

> wrote:

>> Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

>>

>> From: texasems-l

> [mailto:texasems-l

]

> On

>> Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

>>

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>

>>>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

>> application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

>>

>

February 12, 2009

Annual Fee ($1,200.00 X 5 years) $6,000.00

CAAHEP Institutional Fee ($450.00 X 5 years)

$2,250.00

Technology Fee (paid only once)

$ 250.00

Site Visit every fifth year

$2,500.00

Self Study review every fifth year

$ 500.00

Total

$11,500.00

Per student costs over five (5) years

$ 92.00

Per cost average per contact hour

$ 0.084

> Application fee 250.

> Self study fee 500.

> Annual fee 1200.

> Site visit 2500.

>

> Total first year 4450.

>

> 375 per month, 15.00 per student per month based on a class of 25

>

> AJL

>

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Lee

> L@...> wrote:

>> What math class did you take???? Again, it probably isn't an issue when you

>> get state funding but when you are not, that amount of money is some

>> important training equipment that will not get replaced.

>>

>> Those are the facts

>>

>> Lee

>>

>> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

>> Behalf Of Alan Lambert

>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:53 PM

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>

>> 375.00 per month for 12 months or about 15.00 per student per month -

>> first year cost.

>>

>> " freakin expensive " I dont think so. Find another reason to oppose this.

>>

>> Now that the facts are out it sounds like the cost is a non issue,

>> remember some posters started quoting 10,000. per student. Listen to

>> the facts.

>>

>> AJL

>>

>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lee <@techproservices.net>

>> wrote:

>>> Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

>>>

>>> From: texasems-l

>> [mailto:texasems-l ]

>> On

>>> Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

>>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

>>>

>>> To: texasems-l

>>> Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>>

>>>>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

>>> application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

>>>

>>

February 12, 2009

LOL I give up.

AJL

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Lee

L@...> wrote:

> And the 25 students?

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Alan Lambert

> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:09 PM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>

> Application fee 250.

> Self study fee 500.

> Annual fee 1200.

> Site visit 2500.

>

> Total first year 4450.

>

> 375 per month, 15.00 per student per month based on a class of 25

>

> AJL

>

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Lee

> L@...

>> wrote:

>> What math class did you take???? Again, it probably isn't an issue when

> you

>> get state funding but when you are not, that amount of money is some

>> important training equipment that will not get replaced.

>>

>> Those are the facts

>>

>> Lee

>>

>> From: texasems-l

> [mailto:texasems-l ]

> On

>> Behalf Of Alan Lambert

>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:53 PM

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>

>> 375.00 per month for 12 months or about 15.00 per student per month -

>> first year cost.

>>

>> " freakin expensive " I dont think so. Find another reason to oppose this.

>>

>> Now that the facts are out it sounds like the cost is a non issue,

>> remember some posters started quoting 10,000. per student. Listen to

>> the facts.

>>

>> AJL

>>

>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lee <@techproservices.net>

>> wrote:

>>> Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

>>>

>>> From: texasems-l

>

>> [mailto:texasems-l

> ]

>> On

>>> Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

>>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

>>>

>>> To: texasems-l

>

>>> Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>>

>>>>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

>>> application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

>>>

>>

February 12, 2009

I am just guessing that you are from a college based entity that has already

been through the process or you wouldn't be working so hard to prove a

point. The average college program pays $37-42 per hour to teach EMS in the

DFW area, look at what TEEX has the ability to pay for grant funded courses

in the rural areas, yep, it just went up from $19 to 22 per hour.

Let look at funding, state reimbursement every other year is about $5 per

head per contact hour, lets say the average PM class is 1200 hours X 25

students per year ($150,000 of Lee math) PLUS the regular tuition/fees they

pay, lets just say $50 per semester hour for the average jr college or

another $1650 per student, that is a total of $191,250. Now, this doesn't

take into account the regular budget that is funded by tax dollars. Let's

take a look at a private program, 25 students at $2,500, by Lee math that is

$62,500, quit a difference huh? Now, did I mention the part about all those

college level programs fighting over doing the EMS class 100 miles away from

their campus? Oh wait!!!! They don't do those classes do they.

Alan, there are PM programs in west Texas that have less than 10 students a

year in them. Let me emphasize to the masses that I am not against the

accreditation process per se, what I am against is people forcing stuff down

our throats in a " it will make us better " meal without any proof whatsoever

of that fact. It's funny, when I brought up the whole CAAS/CAMTS

requirement for everyone if accreditation is the savior of EMS and yet,

crickets...... If it is good for educational entities why not for the front

lines of EMS?

Lee

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Alan Lambert

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:13 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

Annual Fee ($1,200.00 X 5 years) $6,000.00

CAAHEP Institutional Fee ($450.00 X 5 years)

$2,250.00

Technology Fee (paid only once)

$ 250.00

Site Visit every fifth year

$2,500.00

Self Study review every fifth year

$ 500.00

Total

$11,500.00

Per student costs over five (5) years

$ 92.00

Per cost average per contact hour

$ 0.084

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Alan Lambert ajl442@...

> wrote:

> Application fee 250.

> Self study fee 500.

> Annual fee 1200.

> Site visit 2500.

>

> Total first year 4450.

>

> 375 per month, 15.00 per student per month based on a class of 25

>

> AJL

>

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Lee

> L@...

> wrote:

>> What math class did you take???? Again, it probably isn't an issue when

you

>> get state funding but when you are not, that amount of money is some

>> important training equipment that will not get replaced.

>>

>> Those are the facts

>>

>> Lee

>>

>> From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ]

On

>> Behalf Of Alan Lambert

>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:53 PM

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>

>> 375.00 per month for 12 months or about 15.00 per student per month -

>> first year cost.

>>

>> " freakin expensive " I dont think so. Find another reason to oppose this.

>>

>> Now that the facts are out it sounds like the cost is a non issue,

>> remember some posters started quoting 10,000. per student. Listen to

>> the facts.

>>

>> AJL

>>

>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lee <@techproservices.net>

>> wrote:

>>> Yep, much different. It's still freakin expensive.

>>>

>>> From: texasems-l

>> [mailto:texasems-l

]

>> On

>>> Behalf Of Kenny Navarro

>>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

>>>

>>> To: texasems-l

>>> Subject: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

>>>

>>>>>> The $11,500 figure is correct for the initial cost for

>>> application. However, that is paid up front. <<<

>>>

>>

February 12, 2009

On Thursday, February 12, 2009 07:40, " medic4319 " s.robinson@...>

said:

> ...Prove to me

> that a college education to be a Paramedic will improve the overall

> patient care and I will never say another word about it...

This is something that you have to prove for yourself. If you have not already,

go take two semesters of Anatomy & Physiology, Microbiology, Chemistry,

Psychology, and Sociology, then honestly ask yourself if it has not made you a

better medic. I have money that says it will.

> ...but all you

> have to do is look around and there are college eduated people every

> where that can't even take care of themselves, let alone the nation,

> banking industry, police departments, etc...

Let's keep it apples-to-apples here, Bro. Those fields are not medicine. Not

to mention that banking has a greed factor that we'll never see in EMS! But

again, you are obviously missing the point entirely. Nobody said that education

made you competent. In fact, both Dr. Bledsoe and I have gone out of our way to

say so. What education does is make you better than you would have been without

it. That is an indisputable truth.

> Again, I'm not against

> someone bettering themselves by learnig everything they can, but to

> say a college is the only way... B.S.!

Again, you're disputing an argument that was never made here. Nobody said that

college was the only way. And again, both Dr. Bledsoe and I have repeatedly

said so.

> Rob, I do take it personal when someone with a college education

> tries to tell me that I lack the knowledge to understand or to

> comment on a subject. You can try to butter it up however you want,

> but it's obvious where you stand.

No buttering up needed. It is fact. If you have no experience with something,

you lack the experiential credibility necessary to render an intelligent opinion

on it. Other than this silly emotional appeal of, " I'M OFFENDED! " , I really

don't see any way for you to dispute that. Does that mean you are stupid? No.

Does it mean you are ignorant? No. Is it a personal affront? No. It just

means you don't know anything about the subject. If that offends you, the onus

is on you. Educate yourself and you will no longer be in that position.

> I dare you, or anyone for that

> matter, to go out and tell the thousands of Paramedics that since

> they don't have a college degree that their opinions don't count or

> matter.

Well again, it's not about degrees, or even about college. It's about higher

education. But I do not hesitate to tell anyone that, if they have no

experience with something, that they are not qualified to intelligently opine on

it. I don't know anything about your family. Am I qualified to give an opinion

of them?

> I pretty sure the response you would get is worse that what

> I have said and you take your life in your own hands.

Bring it on. It's actually nice to see people open up here and show what

they've got. Helps to sort the professionals from those who are just in it for

themselves, and consequently holding the profession back in the 1970s.

You see, I didn't always have college degrees. I too was a tech school medic.

I didn't think I needed all that book learnin' either. I made the same

ridiculous arguments about Greek Mythology and Underwater Basketweaving course

requirements that others are making here, and told everyone who would listen

that nothing a college had to offer would help me start IVs or sink tubes any

better. It was bullshit. I was ignorant. I was fooling myself. It only took

a couple weeks of Anatomy & Physiology before I had to say to myself, " Holy

Crap! I can't believe they let me be a paramedic without ever learning this

stuff! " After a couple semesters of that, plus some Micro, Chem, Psych, and

Sociology, I came to realise that even my instructors didn't know half of what

they should have known. And every day of practice since then, I have found

myself relying on the invaluable information I received from those courses.

Yes, all that book learnin' made me a better paramedic. And if I had that

course work BEFORE I went to paramedic school, I would have been an even better

medic than I ultimately became. There is no second chance to build a

foundation.

I'm not perfect. I'm no super medic. But I am smart enough to recognise,

admit, and correct my mistakes in order to improve my professional practice.

That is the kind of professional commitment that is sorely lacking in our field.

And it is the primary reason why EMS will never, ever become a true medical

profession.

Rob

February 12, 2009

There you go with some of that funny spelling again Mr. !

LMAO

Lee

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of rob.davis@...

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:54 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

On Thursday, February 12, 2009 07:40, " medic4319 " s.robinson@...

> said:

> ...Prove to me

> that a college education to be a Paramedic will improve the overall

> patient care and I will never say another word about it...

This is something that you have to prove for yourself. If you have not already,

go take two semesters of Anatomy & Physiology, Microbiology, Chemistry,

Psychology, and Sociology, then honestly ask yourself if it has not made you a

better medic. I have money that says it will.

> ...but all you

> have to do is look around and there are college eduated people every

> where that can't even take care of themselves, let alone the nation,

> banking industry, police departments, etc...

Let's keep it apples-to-apples here, Bro. Those fields are not medicine. Not to

mention that banking has a greed factor that we'll never see in EMS! But again,

you are obviously missing the point entirely. Nobody said that education made

you competent. In fact, both Dr. Bledsoe and I have gone out of our way to say

so. What education does is make you better than you would have been without it.

That is an indisputable truth.

> Again, I'm not against

> someone bettering themselves by learnig everything they can, but to

> say a college is the only way... B.S.!

Again, you're disputing an argument that was never made here. Nobody said that

college was the only way. And again, both Dr. Bledsoe and I have repeatedly said

so.

> Rob, I do take it personal when someone with a college education

> tries to tell me that I lack the knowledge to understand or to

> comment on a subject. You can try to butter it up however you want,

> but it's obvious where you stand.

No buttering up needed. It is fact. If you have no experience with something,

you lack the experiential credibility necessary to render an intelligent opinion

on it. Other than this silly emotional appeal of, " I'M OFFENDED! " , I really

don't see any way for you to dispute that. Does that mean you are stupid? No.

Does it mean you are ignorant? No. Is it a personal affront? No. It just means

you don't know anything about the subject. If that offends you, the onus is on

you. Educate yourself and you will no longer be in that position.

> I dare you, or anyone for that

> matter, to go out and tell the thousands of Paramedics that since

> they don't have a college degree that their opinions don't count or

> matter.

Well again, it's not about degrees, or even about college. It's about higher

education. But I do not hesitate to tell anyone that, if they have no experience

with something, that they are not qualified to intelligently opine on it. I

don't know anything about your family. Am I qualified to give an opinion of

them?

> I pretty sure the response you would get is worse that what

> I have said and you take your life in your own hands.

Bring it on. It's actually nice to see people open up here and show what they've

got. Helps to sort the professionals from those who are just in it for

themselves, and consequently holding the profession back in the 1970s.

You see, I didn't always have college degrees. I too was a tech school medic. I

didn't think I needed all that book learnin' either. I made the same ridiculous

arguments about Greek Mythology and Underwater Basketweaving course requirements

that others are making here, and told everyone who would listen that nothing a

college had to offer would help me start IVs or sink tubes any better. It was

bullshit. I was ignorant. I was fooling myself. It only took a couple weeks of

Anatomy & Physiology before I had to say to myself, " Holy Crap! I can't believe

they let me be a paramedic without ever learning this stuff! " After a couple

semesters of that, plus some Micro, Chem, Psych, and Sociology, I came to

realise that even my instructors didn't know half of what they should have

known. And every day of practice since then, I have found myself relying on the

invaluable information I received from those courses. Yes, all that book

learnin' made me a better paramedic. And if I had that course work BEFORE I went

to paramedic school, I would have been an even better medic than I ultimately

became. There is no second chance to build a foundation.

I'm not perfect. I'm no super medic. But I am smart enough to recognise, admit,

and correct my mistakes in order to improve my professional practice. That is

the kind of professional commitment that is sorely lacking in our field. And it

is the primary reason why EMS will never, ever become a true medical profession.

Rob

February 12, 2009

I've read many of the posts on this topic-some good---some not so good.

But, it's getting old and time to put it to sleep. Just my 2 cents worth.

Nitey

Night ! (please)

Subject: RE: Re: College Medic vs. Non College Medic

To: texasems-l

Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 9:53 PM

On Thursday, February 12, 2009 07:40, " medic4319 "