Re: School was Re: Wet Chair!

[Guest guest]

Pondering on this subject this afternoon, [like - I have nothing else

to do!] made me think of my primary education. I can't recall any

male teachers in the infants school but nearly half of the junior

school teachers were male. Yet a male primary teacher now is so rare,

up here. Funny how the Heads are quite often men, though........

DD1 had one of those rare male teachers in P5. She/we never actually

met him because he was suspended at the start of term after the police

raided his house and took away piles of photographs and videos. But

that experience hasn't put me off male teachers.

Lesley

------------------

From:

When I did my PGCE both the men on my course were particularly

interested in early years.

One of them, with whom I shared my final teaching practice in a very

challenging placement (3-5 year olds in a sink estate that gets in

the news), was IMHO god's gift to nursery teaching. We both

interviewed for the Coventry pool - I got a job, he didn't and he

didn't find it easy to find one. He eventually 'retired' to look

after his own child when his wife got a deputy headship.

The teacher before the one I took over from when I started work was

also male - and he sounded brilliant too.

I think that socially it was hard for them and that was before the

'all men are potential paedophiles' view became officially acceptable.

[Guest guest]

The article said they wanted to encourage more men into the

profession, especially with the numbers of little boys who don't have

a male figure at home to learn from. But men are reluctant to take on

such work when the spectre of accusations of inappropriate behaviour

is ever present.

I think, [but don't quote me] that currently 1% of nursery infant

teachers are male and they would like the figure to be 5%. Still not

exactly representative, is it?

Lesley

----------------

From:

I didn't see the piece - but I have a friend who is a male infant

school

teacher and who loves his job. The LEA are trying to promote him

and/or

entice him to teach an older age group - his feeling is that it is so

rare to

have a man teaching infants that lots of people feel uncomfortable

about it.

There are some silly rules though - if one of the children in his

class is

upset/has fallen over etc. - he is not allowed to pick that child up

and give

it a cuddle.

[Guest guest]

I suppose you could just not register him at 5 and then apply when he

is 6 or 7!

IMO, 5 is too young for lots of children to begin school. Although

none of my children has been less than 5 when starting school I'm

certain DD1 would have benefited from at least one and maybe two more

years at home with me, along with some nursery sessions. If the

internet had been available when she was 5 I would probably have home

educated her to begin with. But it was quite difficulty and time

consuming to get the information then and I simply didn't have the

confidence to do it. :-(

I wouldn't consider home educating DD2, though. We'd probably kill

each other!!!

Lesley

-----------

From: alison.

Steve Biddulph is a huge fan of keeping boys out of school until

later. Wonder how that would go down with the infant schools - yes,

we are prepared to accept your offer of a place for our son, but he

won't be taking it up for possibly 2 years.....

Alison

[Guest guest]

It must be a fascinating subject to study. My DD has just got a new

girl in her class of 13/14 yr olds. This girl is from South Africa

and is almost 17. If she progresses at the usual rate she will leave

when she is nearly 21.

Yet the DD of a friend has completed one term in P1 in Scotland, 18

months in kindergarten in Singapore and is now being elevated to P4

after the summer because she is so far ahead.

It's all so weird, I can't get my head round it.

Lesley

----------------

From: Vicki

When working at UMIST I did a project on A Level equivalence for

Europe - ie

what standard of education had European students reached at the end of

their

formal school education in comparison with UK standards. It was quite

complex, but it seemed that students from Scandinavian countries

(particularly Norway IIRC) performed far better in tests at the

beginning of

the 1st year of UK university than UK students.

[Guest guest]

But with a South African of that age, you have to remember that at least the

early years of their education would have been heavily disrupted by the

student strikes and apartheid struggles - even white South African school

kids suffered as a result of this - so 21 isn't a bad age to complete school

in SA. Actually, this is true of many 3rd world countries with severe

political instability: we had an application from a man in ?Ghana I think,

who was perfectly frank that his education had suffered because of repeat

imprisonments over his political beliefs. His personal statement on his

UCAS form was a treasure: he had managed to keep out of the police's sight

for a year or two and was hopeful that he could escape the country by coming

to the UK to study. Unfortunately, he had about 6 years of education in

total, and absolutely no money. The admissions tutor was keen to offer him

a place - largely because he was very persistent about chasing his

application. However, we'd have ended up caught in the middle of a long and

painful immigration row - even if the man had been able to cobble together

the money to get here, which I think would be highly unlikely. In the end,

we didn't offer him a place because, no matter how deserving a cause, we

couldn't justify it academically and I argued that it would be cruel to

offer him false hope of escape.

South East Asia is a completely different kettle of fish: very intensive

teaching from a very young age. Most of the political leaders there are

adamant that the way into the first world is by getting as many students as

possible a first world education, and allowing SE Asia to reap the

benefits - when that region suffered the currency crisis at the end of the

90s, many UK and US universities set up campuses over there.

It was interesting to study - but *very* complex!

Vicki Portman

http://www.plushpants.co.uk

> It must be a fascinating subject to study. My DD has just got a new

> girl in her class of 13/14 yr olds. This girl is from South Africa

> and is almost 17. If she progresses at the usual rate she will leave

> when she is nearly 21.

>

> Yet the DD of a friend has completed one term in P1 in Scotland, 18

> months in kindergarten in Singapore and is now being elevated to P4

> after the summer because she is so far ahead.

>

> It's all so weird, I can't get my head round it.

>

[Guest guest]

> I didn't see the piece - but I have a friend who is a male infant

school

> teacher and who loves his job. The LEA are trying to promote him

and/or

> entice him to teach an older age group - his feeling is that it is

so rare to

> have a man teaching infants that lots of people feel uncomfortable

about it.

> There are some silly rules though - if one of the children in his

class is

> upset/has fallen over etc. - he is not allowed to pick that child up

and give

> it a cuddle.<<

We have 2 male teachers in my kids school. One in year 2, the other

in year 5. They are both excellent and really get the children

working. My son in year 5 has come on more in this one year than he

has in the last couple of years put together. Admittedly his teacher

is a very good teacher and I'm not saying that women aren't (he has

had a couple of excellent woman teachers too) but I'm sure that the

boys in the class have all related much better having a man teaching

them and discipline seems to have been a lot stronger.

Lorraine

Mum to 10, Natasha 8, 5, ph 3

[Guest guest]

>> I remember there was some research a while back that said it was

better for

> all children (regardless of sex) if they didn't start formal

schooling until

> they were 6. Can't remember anything about it other than that

though -

> anyone else know? <<

I did see a documentary on this some time ago. It was about education

in somewhere like Sweden (I think, but could be another Scandinavian

country) and the fact that they don't teach them to read until they

are 6 or 7 but they become more accomplished readers than British

children by the time they are 9 or something. And their earlier

schooling just consists of things like nature walks and other such

natural learning, not sitting down in a classroom reading, writing and

doing sums.

Lorraine

Mum to 10, Natasha 8, 5, ph 3

[Guest guest]

> I did some looking into this after I read Steve Biddulph: IIRC,

although

> schools like you to send them just before 5, they don't legally

have to

> start school until the September *following* their 5th birthday.<<

Yes this is true but then you apparently lose your chance of the

school of your choice, you are sent to " the bottom of the list " for

the next year. Or as the school put it " you are not guaranteed a

place " .

Lorraine

Mum to 10, Natasha 8, 5, ph 3

>

[Guest guest]

Sadly, our local home ed. group seems to be full older children for the most

part. However, we've a couple of years to go yet, before it becomes a live

issue for us so I'll keep in touch with them - if nothing else, I hope to

have picked up the spirit of the thing!

I'm just beginning to grit my teeth through the first floods of " So, isn't

he in Nursery yet, then? " questions - our local nursery is attached to the

primary school and has a remarkably similar learning outlook to Yr 1 - the

fact that it has a learning outlook *at all* is enough to put me off!

I was dreading broaching home ed. with my parents - both of whom are very

dyed in the wool - but fortunately both have been very supportive so far. I

think they think I'll grow out of it

Vicki Portman

http://www.plushpants.co.uk

>

> My local home ed. group has quite a coterie who are doing just this with

> their boys - although I think one or two may have a problem persuading

> their children into school when they want to send them (they've realised

> just what fun HE can be!!).

>

> DD1 did originally go to school (at 4y 2 1/2 mths) and a term later was

> so stressed that her excema had returned with a vengeance and we pulled

> her! She was more than ready academically - but she was (and is!) a

> live wire and one of life's questioners, and having her questions

> unanswered and being expected to sit still for long periods of time just

> wasn't her.

>

> I'm afraid I agree about the early years curriculum - overly concerned

> with outward shows of learning as the sole proof of ability. But only

> as long as the display comes in an acceptable form (ability to

> understand and question is often taken as showing a lack of

> understanding at 7 but is expected at 11!!).

[Guest guest]

Do any other countries start school at five (or the year they turn five)

other than the UK?

I know in Italy and in Greece you don't start school until you're six. I

think most of Europe is like this too, but not certain.

However, in Italy, nursery is started at three and is a whole day

(8:00-4:00) with meals and naptimes! School is a shorter day, ending at

2:00/3:00. Not sure if nursery is compulsory or not.

Janet

RE: School was Re: Wet Chair!

Also said that it could be better if boys started school

> at six, not five, due to development differences.

>

>

> Lesley

[Guest guest]

Do any other countries start school at five (or the year they turn five)

other than the UK?

I know in Italy and in Greece you don't start school until you're six. I

think most of Europe is like this too, but not certain.

However, in Italy, nursery is started at three and is a whole day

(8:00-4:00) with meals and naptimes! School is a shorter day, ending at

2:00/3:00. Not sure if nursery is compulsory or not.

Janet

RE: School was Re: Wet Chair!

Also said that it could be better if boys started school

> at six, not five, due to development differences.

>

>

> Lesley

[Guest guest]

From memory, Japan and SE Asia start very early, and the States is fairly

similar to us. Many countries offer some kind of kindergarten arrangement

for very young children - as young as 2, but these are usually purely places

to play and socialise.

Vicki Portman

http://www.plushpants.co.uk

RE: School was Re: Wet Chair!

>

>

> Also said that it could be better if boys started school

> > at six, not five, due to development differences.

> >

> >

> > Lesley

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Actually, the US starts at least 2 years later than the UK. The earliest

children can start kindergarten (similar to UK reception year) is 5, but kg

in non-teaching, unlike the UK, and usually just for a half-day for the

whole year. On top of this, where I live (and I'm sure in many middle

class suburban neighbourhoods), it is really common to 'hold children back'

a year - especially boys or summer-born children. So it's really common

for children here not to have any formal literacy & numeracy education

until they are 7, compared to 4 in the UK. A lot of kids here don't even

go to pre-school, so their first classroom experience is often when they go

to primary.

We didn't know about holding back until after we got here, and we put our

boys up a year. They are a year younger than they should be, but are two

years younger than held-back children. DS1, who is 9 and in 4th grade, is

an A-student and has separate lessons in the 'Talented and Gifted' program

(not surprising since age is factored into the results). DS2, 7 - 2nd

grade, is much harder to assess formally, but he is doing fine - way ahead

in maths and English and also qualified for TAG.

Holding back is something parents do to show that they are caring and

in-charge of schooling. In the UK, the same parents exercise parental

authority by choosing a school that requires the most complicated travel

arrangement possible.

Re: School was Re: Wet Chair!

>From memory, Japan and SE Asia start very early, and the States is fairly

similar to us. Many countries offer some kind of kindergarten arrangement

for very young children - as young as 2, but these are usually purely

places

to play and socialise.

Vicki Portman

http://www.plushpants.co.uk

[Guest guest]

>

> Holding back is something parents do to show that they are caring and

> in-charge of schooling. In the UK, the same parents exercise parental

> authority by choosing a school that requires the most complicated travel

> arrangement possible.

))

I'm glad I'm wrong about the States: I actually only admitted two US

students - but both of them had been in school since the age of 4, so I

assumed that was universal.

Vicki

[Guest guest]

>

> Holding back is something parents do to show that they are caring and

> in-charge of schooling. In the UK, the same parents exercise parental

> authority by choosing a school that requires the most complicated travel

> arrangement possible.

))

I'm glad I'm wrong about the States: I actually only admitted two US

students - but both of them had been in school since the age of 4, so I

assumed that was universal.

Vicki

[Guest guest]

>

> Holding back is something parents do to show that they are caring and

> in-charge of schooling. In the UK, the same parents exercise parental

> authority by choosing a school that requires the most complicated travel

> arrangement possible.

))

I'm glad I'm wrong about the States: I actually only admitted two US

students - but both of them had been in school since the age of 4, so I

assumed that was universal.

Vicki

[Guest guest]

>Do any other countries start school at five (or the year

>they turn five)

>other than the UK?

Joyce answered this much more up-to-date than I can, but I

know that the US has pre-school, which is 3 and 4 years old

and which has no academic content except story time (I seem

to remember it being only 2 days a week for either a

morning or an afternoon, but I am sure there are many

different arrangements), then Kindergarten, which is for 5

year-olds (who are already 5 as of whatever the cutoff date

is - late September generally), which is usually a half

day. I don’t remember much academic content, but I already

knew how to read because Mom read with us a lot. My little

sister’s K class learned the alphabet with songs and

stories about people like Mister M with the Munching Mouth.

They start getting serious about learning to read and do

math once you’re 6 or so.

My older brother also learned to read when he was 4 and

then got to the public (ie state) school and was informed

by his Kindergarten teacher that he didn’t know how to read

unless she taught him. He went to a different school the

next year, needless to say.

Phyllis

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