Re: thyroid antibodies/low TSH/ miscarriages

July 25, 2006

>>Hi...very sorry to hear about your pregnancies. I would be interested to what you are suppressing your TSH with and if you have found a trend in anti-body numbers through out the time you have been suppressed.

Have you been taking anything besides thryoid hormone...vities, scripted pills and such?<<

I believe my current TSH level is about 0.001. My Dr. said it's basically undetectable. They generally don't check antibody numbers, because once you have them you always have them, and they vary throughout time without apparant reason, and cannot be fixed. I just asked to have them checked to see if they were high because of the miscarriage problem. I take vitamins, and an herb that isn't known to have any effect on the immune system at all.

I had read with Hashi's that to supress the body's overactive immune response in killing your thyroid, you supress the TSH. But I would guess with antibody levels that high, it's still on the job?

..

July 25, 2006

I am not sure if there is a correlation between thyroid antibodies and miscarriage, but you might want to look up Syndrome or antiphospholipid antibody syndrome. It is a autoimmune disease that attacks hormone-producing areas of your body. I have had 2 pregnancy losses, and Hashimotos.

Check it out and see if any of the symptoms fit.

Ramona L. Voight

Lessons from Loon Loop http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/deirdre2Ramona's Custom Embroidery http://www.geocities.com/deirdretooMinnesota Homeschool Nations http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Minnesota

July 25, 2006

juliesisemore wrote: >>Hi...very sorry to hear about your pregnancies. I would be interested to what you are suppressing your TSH with and if you have found a trend in anti-body numbers through out the time you have been suppressed. Have you been taking anything besides thryoid

hormone...vities, scripted pills and such?<< I believe my current TSH level is about 0.001. My Dr. said it's basically undetectable. They generally don't check antibody numbers, because once you have them you always have them, and they vary throughout time without apparant reason, and cannot be fixed. I just asked to have them checked to see if they were high because of the miscarriage problem. I take vitamins, and an herb that isn't known to have any effect on the immune system at all. I had read with Hashi's that to supress the body's overactive immune response in killing your thyroid, you supress the TSH. But I would guess with antibody levels that high, it's still on the job? : I hope you are finding yourself well. Well...here is the deal: I can't KNOW more than what you have told me. I can only speculate, and I don't know how you feel..if you have any hypo/hyper symtpoms. You don't mention what your frees are or what you are taking in the way of Thryiod hormone. You also don't mention what is in those vities...which could interfere with thyroid hormone activity, which could then impair destruction of antibodies. You SEE? Your doc is dosing you by only TSH...which is not helpful to you when looking to destroy antibodies. My antibodies were high..and now they are gone two years after suppression. THIS is the typical reaction one should get from suppressed TSH. That was your orginal question.

In my case, I saw them go down...EVERY time I got my bloods. I got the TPO taken...so that is how I know the tragectory. This is important...VERY important. If you are having the trouble that you are...I should think you might want to get a doctor who is more informed about such things as reproduction and thryoid. A good Osteopath or a Naturepath or even a Holistic doc may be in order here. I should also think you would WANT to get hard copies of all test results...so you don't have to guess what your TSH...is. You are doing a great job of doing research, and this is KEY for those of us with ongoing thryoid issues. I wish you luck and a great deal of progress with this. ~E:) . ~EG Connecticut T-T 26 months ago - 57.98 mcg Synthetic plus 120 mg Armour = 205.98 mcgs...RATIO: 87 % T4 / 13% T3

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July 25, 2006

>>Well...here is the deal: I can't KNOW more than what you have told me. I can only speculate, and I don't know how you feel..if you have any hypo/hyper symtpoms.<<

No hypo or hyper symptoms.

>>You don't mention what your frees are or what you are taking in the way of Thryiod hormone. <<

I take 150 mg of Armour a day, for over a year now my labs have been in optimum range. I don't have the paper in front of me, but yes I always get hard copies of all my labs. My FT3 level is just over the top of normal range, and my FT4 is in the high end of normal range.

>>You also don't mention what is in those vities...which could interfere with thyroid hormone activity, which could then impair destruction of antibodies. You SEE? <<

I'll have to check my vitamins. I don't take them close to my thyroid dose, so there isn't interference with absorbtion. If there were, I wouldn't think my labs would be so ideal. As for things in the vitamins that could interfere with destruction of thyroid antibodies I plead ignorance.... I haven't a clue what those substances would be, or how to find out.

>>THIS is the typical reaction one should get from suppressed TSH. That was your orginal question. In my case, I saw them go down...EVERY time I got my bloods. I got the TPO taken...so that is how I know the tragectory. <<

Maybe that is typical. My experience is that after 8 years of thyroid treatment, the last 2 years followed by an excellent thyroid doc, on Armour , who keeps my TSH supressed, tests my Free's, and keeps my levels high normal, my antibodies are higher than before I ever started treatment. I had also understood that it isn't unusual for the antibody level to fluctuate with Hashi's.

Perhaps there are other issues in the body besides TSH supression that control antibody levels? Other hormones? Other autoummine issues as yet undiagnosed? I've found with my personal health, things such as a direct link between labs and symptoms are rarely black and white.

..

July 25, 2006

juliesisemore wrote: >>Well...here is the deal: I can't KNOW more than what you have told me. I can only speculate, and I don't know how you feel..if you have any hypo/hyper symtpoms.<< No hypo or hyper symptoms. >>You don't mention what your frees are or what you are taking in the way of Thryiod hormone. << I take 150 mg of Armour a day, for over a year now my labs have been in optimum range. I don't have the paper in front of me, but yes I always get hard copies of all my labs. My FT3 level is just over the top of normal range, and my FT4 is in the high end of normal range. >>You also don't mention what is in those vities...which could interfere with thyroid hormone activity, which could then impair destruction of antibodies. You SEE? << I'll have to check my vitamins. I don't take them close to my thyroid dose,

so there isn't interference with absorbtion. If there were, I wouldn't think my labs would be so ideal. As for things in the vitamins that could interfere with destruction of thyroid antibodies I plead ignorance.... I haven't a clue what those substances would be, or how to find out. >>THIS is the typical reaction one should get from suppressed TSH. That was your orginal question. In my case, I saw them go down...EVERY time I got my bloods. I got the TPO taken...so that is how I know the tragectory. << Maybe that is typical. My experience is that after 8 years of thyroid treatment, the last 2 years followed by an excellent thyroid doc, on Armour , who keeps my TSH supressed, tests my Free's, and keeps my levels high normal, my antibodies are higher than before I ever started treatment. I had

also understood that it isn't unusual for the antibody level to fluctuate with Hashi's. Perhaps there are other issues in the body besides TSH supression that control antibody levels? Other hormones? Other autoummine issues as yet undiagnosed? I've found with my personal health, things such as a direct link between labs and symptoms are rarely black and white. : Okay...now this picture is a little clearer. Excellent information Jule. I'm sorry if I sounded a bit terse...didn't mean to at all. I have been the victim of bad advice when someone doesn't EVEN bother to get the proper details from me, and as one might guess am reluctant to in turn propogate that. If you are FEELING really good and it sounds like you are...THAT's so great. Now...that I know you are taking a good dose of Armour and your labs are in good shape (with a good doc)...I can see EVEN more now why you are REALLY trying to drill down on this anti-body issue. Makes perfect sense...AND good for you!! YES..you are right about the vities hindering absorbtion...unless their are anti-thyroid properties in them, (yes as you may know there is such things) you wouldn't suspect them. Of course you are also correct to point out...if they don't seem to hinder your labs and your good feeling...chances are slim that your vities are a likely culprit here. I wish I could offer more. I guess the hunt might be on for you to do what you say...check for other Auto-immune issues. Take an ANA lab...check for other deficiencies...and so on. (the other difference to keep in

mind, THAT is of note..is I no longer have a thyroid gland...for the anti-bodies to mount an attack against...and you still have one it sounds like.) Your gland could still be shooting thryoid hormone in there...and giving it way the gland's occupation. I do wonder if the gland still does kick out thyroid hormone when one is taking replacement medication. Some say NO..some say maybe. In theory, the anti-bodies shouldn't be able to "see" your gland if you are on full replacement. At any rate..Apples to Apples....this situation is NOT! And...YES one again you are right...the Universe is anything but black and white!!! I seriously hope you get an answer to this VEXING question...and am truley sorry I couln't be of more value to

you here. ~E:) . ~EG Connecticut T-T 26 months ago - 57.98 mcg Synthetic plus 120 mg Armour = 205.98 mcgs...RATIO: 87 % T4 / 13% T3

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July 25, 2006

Lets see if I can piece this together for you..

TPO is Thyroid Peroxidase ..TPO is an enzyme contained only with in

the thyroid, when the thyroid is injured, damaged or attacked by

antibodies TPO is released into the blood stream..because TPO is

foreign to the body as a whole the body produces antibodies to it..

TPO was one of the first original antibody markers they could

identify for autoimmune thyroid disease.( 1985).

TPO is seen in low numbers in people with out thyroid disease, in

high numbers after thyroid injury and even in Grave's disease..the

high tilters though are common in Hashi's.

A newer test called TBII is a TSH receptor blocking antibody which

is seen in hypothyroidism, it is also seen in Grave's but the TSI ,

thyroid stimulating antibody is of a higher tilter and those with

high TBII usually end up spontaniously hypo after Grave's.

The TPO test now is considered to be more of an inflammation marker

then an actual antibody test, although yes high tilters like you

have are conclusive of Hashimoto's disease.

As far as Hypothyroidism goes and suppressing the TSH you seem to be

doing well and I am glad you found a doctor to work with you.

Now if we look at TPO as being an anti-inflammatory marker and we

know TSH is not stimulating your thyroid, the question becomes what

is stimulating your Thyroid and causing the inflammation?

Two thoughts on this..one your first TPO test 8 years ago was the

beginning of Hashi's, you have stated you have only been on proper

treatment for the last 2 years..it is possible that your TPO has

increased during your first 6 years of treatment and your TPO now is

actually decreased from the high markers during those 6 years so it

is coming down.. but with out TPO tests to compare this is a guess

at best.

Second thought..something else is stimulating your thyroid and

causing TPO to be released?

Systematic inflammation can be caused by allergies, other autoimmune

diseases, TPO markers also decrease during the later part of

pregnancy and come back 10 fold after delivery.

Thyroid stimulation can be caused by Iodine, too much or too little

although in the US too much is more common. Chemicals in food such

as MSG, artifical sweeteners, excessive flouride or chlorine,

certain medications? A lot of natural herbs are also considered

immune stimulants and while immune modulators will help build the

immune system, stimulants want to be avoided.

Check out www.thyroidmanager.org it will explain the role of

antibodies, iodine etc.

It also states though that high tilters of TPO increases your risk

of miscarraige but that TPO antibodies usually level off after 4

months of proper treatment and with in a few years levels will drop.

Because TPO is generated because of an enzyme in the thyroid gland

thyroidectomy will lower TPO levels considerably.

Hope this gives you a few ideas and directions to look at.

Kats3boys

July 25, 2006

Hi Spiff,

Just keep an eye on the salt thing and if it doesn't stop or it gets

worse it could be that your adrenal glands are being stressed which

would be the case with so much heat and the thyroid not working right

Dawn

>

> For the week or so, I've been craving salt. Just regular from-the-

shaker-salt. It's been hot up here, in the 90's and I don't have any

fan or a/c ( pay's been a tad short lately ) so the pups and I work

up a sweat reading a book or watching a movie. I drink about half a

gallon of water a day, sometimes, 3 qts if I get really hot. I've

not craved salt before that I can remember and I only add it to

things like spuds. Could this mean something is trying to kick start

or am I just wishful thinking? ( I try to keep the salt down to a

dull roar, I put a 1/4t in a bowl and grab a bunch of baby carrots.

I've not finished the amt of salt I use even tho I eat a good size

handful of the carrots. )

> Spiff

>

> Thyroid stimulation can be caused by Iodine, too much or too

little

> although in the US too much is more common.

>

> .

>

> ---------------------------------

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call rates.

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July 25, 2006