Attitudes to children and babies

[Guest guest]

LOL! We did pay for it - it cost something like $20,000 one-way for the

whole family. The children behaved impeccably (for them), and it was just

their mere presence that put people off. We were as considerate as we

possibly could be. I certainly didn't feel guilty about being there,

especially since we did pay and the others were probably on upgrades or FF

miles.

Re: Attitudes to children and babies

I haven't had any problems (except in the business

class

> section of a transatlantic flight with all four of them).

I must say on the rare occasions I have actually *paid* for business

class, rather than been upgraded due to points, I too have been very

annoyed if small children have been kicking the back of my seat etc.

It's what the extra money is for, surely, peace and quiet and no

screaming babies! I get very intolerant in business class :-) El Al

don't allow under 8 yr olds in their business class lounge, and quite

right too IMO

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

ruthie@... wrote:

> I must say on the rare occasions I have actually *paid* for business

> class, rather than been upgraded due to points, I too have been very

> annoyed if small children have been kicking the back of my seat etc.

> It's what the extra money is for, surely, peace and quiet and no

> screaming babies! I get very intolerant in business class :-) El Al

> don't allow under 8 yr olds in their business class lounge, and quite

> right too IMO

>

I have to disagree here, when we travel business or first class with

the children I think they should be accorded the same level of service

as everyone else in that section of the aeroplane. The first time I

took I admitted to the flight attendant that I felt a bit

guilty having a tiny baby in the 1st class section and she replied

'Well you shouldn't - most of these people have had their fares paid

for by their companies and you have paid for your own fare. You have as much

right to be here as anyone else'

Excluding children from the lounges means that neither they nor their

parents are getting the full benefits of the service they have paid for - I

would not choose to fly with an airline that didn't let me

and my children use the lounge facilities. As for small children

kicking seats - they can't be that small if their feet reach the seat

in business class, and the biggest pests in business/first class are

idiots who have been upgraded, then drink too much and think that any

woman travelling alone, either with or without children is gagging to

join the mile high club!

--

http://www.foxstitch.co.uk/

--

http://www.foxstitch.co.uk/

[Guest guest]

I think life with small children is a doddle compared to 25 yrs ago!

Back then, baby changing rooms, automatic doors, and low loader buses were

totally non existent. All department stores now have lifts. Supermarkets

have a bewildering choice of trolleys, wide aisles and checkouts, creches

and parent/baby car parking (our supermarkets were in town back in the 70's

so there wasn't even a car park!!!) , people to help pack your shopping and

then take it to the car. Restaurants offer highchairs, food warmers, free

baby foods, children's meals, goodie bags to occupy your child and a smoke

free atmosphere. You can go on holiday to traffic-free holiday villages, buy

clothing in a huge range of styles/colours/prices and choose from an equally

massive range of well made baby equipment.

These are just some of the changes I can think of, off the top of my head.

Its a vast improvement in 20 years. The one thing that *hasn't* changed,

though, is putting children's shoe departments in the basement or upper

floor of shoe shops!!

With my DS's, born in the 70's I remember being asked to leave my pram

outside shops...that has never happened since I had the DD's. I simply

can't recall being made to feel unwelcome with a baby or child for many

years. I suppose if I took my child into a pub, I might not be welcomed with

open arms, but then, I wouldn't want to take them into a pub in the first

place!

I think there is a need to recognise other people's feelings and remember

that not everyone likes, understands, or maybe even has had any contact

with, children and babies. I, for one, would be most unhappy to go out for

a posh meal with my DH and have it spoilt by someone else's crying baby or

misbehaving child!

Lesley

------------------------

From: Caroline

What do people think about how welcome babies and children are? Also are

people more welcoming of babies but dislike small children - rueful comments

from twisted sad people about 'make the most of it, they turn into monsters'

?We've had to work quite hard at this changing of attitudes to things like

breastfeeding in the NCT, against rather a hostile attitude?

Caro

[Guest guest]

I am totally outvoted and I surrender! " Waving white flag!*

Ruthie

> > I have to disagree here, when we travel business or first class

with

> > the children I think they should be accorded the same level of

> service

> > as everyone else in that section of the aeroplane.

>

> Hear, hear. I agree with every word .

>

> --

> Sue

[Guest guest]

LOL!!! Shall we set up a child free area, Ruthie?? Sometimes I just want

to get away from my children and to then be confronted with other people's

is the worst!!

Lesley

---------------------

From: ruthie@

I am totally outvoted and I surrender! " Waving white flag!*

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

LOL!!! Shall we set up a child free area, Ruthie?? Sometimes I just want

to get away from my children and to then be confronted with other people's

is the worst!!

Lesley

---------------------

From: ruthie@

I am totally outvoted and I surrender! " Waving white flag!*

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

LOL!!! Shall we set up a child free area, Ruthie?? Sometimes I just want

to get away from my children and to then be confronted with other people's

is the worst!!

Lesley

---------------------

From: ruthie@

I am totally outvoted and I surrender! " Waving white flag!*

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

> LOL!!! Shall we set up a child free area, Ruthie?? Sometimes I

just want

> to get away from my children and to then be confronted with other

people's

> is the worst!!

>

> Lesley

Well exactly Lesley, and when I go away with DH on our own, for a

blissful break, that's one of them! Somehow, especially when I fly EL

Al to Israel, if I go economy I expect thousands of babies and

children amongst my fellow passengers, as most of " our lot " have large

families..but somehow also, when I fork out for business class, I

would like to relax in peace. So far, on El Al, I have only ever

once seen a child in business class! The one kicking me in the back

of the seat. (He must have been about six.)

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

> LOL!!! Shall we set up a child free area, Ruthie?? Sometimes I

just want

> to get away from my children and to then be confronted with other

people's

> is the worst!!

>

> Lesley

Well exactly Lesley, and when I go away with DH on our own, for a

blissful break, that's one of them! Somehow, especially when I fly EL

Al to Israel, if I go economy I expect thousands of babies and

children amongst my fellow passengers, as most of " our lot " have large

families..but somehow also, when I fork out for business class, I

would like to relax in peace. So far, on El Al, I have only ever

once seen a child in business class! The one kicking me in the back

of the seat. (He must have been about six.)

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

> LOL!!! Shall we set up a child free area, Ruthie?? Sometimes I

just want

> to get away from my children and to then be confronted with other

people's

> is the worst!!

>

> Lesley

Well exactly Lesley, and when I go away with DH on our own, for a

blissful break, that's one of them! Somehow, especially when I fly EL

Al to Israel, if I go economy I expect thousands of babies and

children amongst my fellow passengers, as most of " our lot " have large

families..but somehow also, when I fork out for business class, I

would like to relax in peace. So far, on El Al, I have only ever

once seen a child in business class! The one kicking me in the back

of the seat. (He must have been about six.)

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

Speaking of attitudes and assumptions, another assumption people make is

that because you have a large family and love your own children you must

adore *all* children. Speaking for myself, I don't!

I don't mean that I hate children, or anything like that. I love other

people's tiny babies but once they can walk, I lose interest. I'm very

nervous with other people's children, too, and find it stressful having

DD2's little friends to play.

Teenagers are another kettle of fish altogether, because I enjoy that stage

a lot, which folk think is weird. It has it's trials and tribulations (what

stage of childhood doesn't?) but has huge rewards, too. I think teenagers

have a really poor press. No one ever writes about their fresh outlook on

life, sense of humour, loyalty to their friends, capacity for fun, and even

their morale boosting, harmless flirtations with their best friend's ancient

mum/dad. All one ever hears about are the angst ridden, sex, alcohol and

drug driven times. Yes, problems exist, but it isn't all like that.

Rant over!

Lesley

----------------

From: ruthie

Sometimes I just want> to get away from my children and to then be

confronted with other people's> is the worst!!

>

> Lesley

Well exactly Lesley, and when I go away with DH on our own, for a

blissful break, that's one of them!

[Guest guest]

Speaking of attitudes and assumptions, another assumption people make is

that because you have a large family and love your own children you must

adore *all* children. Speaking for myself, I don't!

I don't mean that I hate children, or anything like that. I love other

people's tiny babies but once they can walk, I lose interest. I'm very

nervous with other people's children, too, and find it stressful having

DD2's little friends to play.

Teenagers are another kettle of fish altogether, because I enjoy that stage

a lot, which folk think is weird. It has it's trials and tribulations (what

stage of childhood doesn't?) but has huge rewards, too. I think teenagers

have a really poor press. No one ever writes about their fresh outlook on

life, sense of humour, loyalty to their friends, capacity for fun, and even

their morale boosting, harmless flirtations with their best friend's ancient

mum/dad. All one ever hears about are the angst ridden, sex, alcohol and

drug driven times. Yes, problems exist, but it isn't all like that.

Rant over!

Lesley

----------------

From: ruthie

Sometimes I just want> to get away from my children and to then be

confronted with other people's> is the worst!!

>

> Lesley

Well exactly Lesley, and when I go away with DH on our own, for a

blissful break, that's one of them!

[Guest guest]

Speaking of attitudes and assumptions, another assumption people make is

that because you have a large family and love your own children you must

adore *all* children. Speaking for myself, I don't!

I don't mean that I hate children, or anything like that. I love other

people's tiny babies but once they can walk, I lose interest. I'm very

nervous with other people's children, too, and find it stressful having

DD2's little friends to play.

Teenagers are another kettle of fish altogether, because I enjoy that stage

a lot, which folk think is weird. It has it's trials and tribulations (what

stage of childhood doesn't?) but has huge rewards, too. I think teenagers

have a really poor press. No one ever writes about their fresh outlook on

life, sense of humour, loyalty to their friends, capacity for fun, and even

their morale boosting, harmless flirtations with their best friend's ancient

mum/dad. All one ever hears about are the angst ridden, sex, alcohol and

drug driven times. Yes, problems exist, but it isn't all like that.

Rant over!

Lesley

----------------

From: ruthie

Sometimes I just want> to get away from my children and to then be

confronted with other people's> is the worst!!

>

> Lesley

Well exactly Lesley, and when I go away with DH on our own, for a

blissful break, that's one of them!

[Guest guest]

> Speaking of attitudes and assumptions, another assumption people

make is

> that because you have a large family and love your own children you

must

> adore *all* children. Speaking for myself, I don't!

>

> I don't mean that I hate children, or anything like that. I love

other

> people's tiny babies but once they can walk, I lose interest.

Oh Lesley how perfectly you have described *me*. I adore newborns,

anyone's newborns. I miss my newest grandson, Rafi " Ratbag " a

lot. But toddlers, especially whingey clingy ones, don't interest me

at all. I am even talking about my own grandchildren. .... of course

I adore them all but let's put it this way. I wouldn't have a

grandchild to stay from age about 6 months to about 5 yrs. After that

they become interesting again.

DD2 was very shocked a few years ago when I said " no " to having her

whingey clingey tantrummy 3 y.o to stay when she went on holiday. I

had never found him very friendly, and it wasn't just me, no one in

the family did. I said " I'm sorry, my days of coping with tantrums

and clingey 3 yr olds are thankfully over! " But a couple of yrs on,

(last autumn) I willingly and delightedly had all three of her kids

(9, 7 5) to stay for a week and they were lovely. I drew the line at

her youngest (1) but she hadn't asked me to have her anyway!

I get very interested in my grandchildren when they pass from the

tantrummy whingey stage at about 5, onwards. And they all find me a

" cool dude granny "

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

Ok, here's my lowdown on attitudes to kids. It has vastly improved in

the 10 years since my oldest was born. Then for example, there were

no baby trolleys in the supermarket, I had to carry him round in a

sling. When his sister was born nearly 2 years later, they had

progressed to the double toddler and baby trolley and I thought I'd

died and gone to heaven (sad eh?).

We have always been made welcome in restaurants and the like. On

holiday in the North of Scotland one year there never seemed to be

high chairs or the like but the restaurant still welcomed us and

searched out big cushions for the children to sit on so they could

reach etc.

I think part of the attitde problems that there may be is down to

children's behaviour. Our children have been taken to restaurants and

like places since birth. They are expected to sit, eat and converse

as a family. They are not expected to run riot round the tables, yell

and scream or throw food around. And they don't. This isn't because

they are perfect children (I wish) but because that is what they have

always had to do. At the worst toddler ages we would take plenty of

little toys, snacky foods (like breadsticks or fruit), books and other

such stuff but they wouldn't be allowed out of the high chair at all.

(I'm not talking about the sort of kiddies restaurants with play

areas, of course they are allowed down to play there.) I think a lot

of people look horrorstruck at families entering places because they

are expecting to have their meals or conversations ruined but it

doesn't have to be like that.

I am quite happy encountering children where-ever I go but I do draw

that line where evenings are concerned. If I have forked out for a

babysitter so I can have a quiet evening out with my husband then that

is what I expect to get. I then do get very annoyed if I encounter

riotuous children at a time when they should be tucked up in bed

I hope this doesn't sound too much as if I am anti-children. With 4

of my own I am positively not. But I can see how people get uptight

about other people's kids sometimes.

Anyhow on an ending note, we have always been made welcome everywhere,

both in Britain and abroad.

Lorraine,

Mum to: 10, Natasha 8, 5, ph nearly 3

[Guest guest]

> I've been pondering about this too. I don't think it's a case of

non-Jews

> not welcoming children (or only welcoming a limited number). I

think

> Christians in general are very welcoming - my church in the UK (and

here in

> the US) is full of big families, and certainly we were congratulated

when

> we announced our fourth child.<<

The people that congratulated us the most on our 4th child were people

from our church (catholic). There are a lot of large families there

and 3 or 4 children seems to be about average. You also get quite a

few with 6,7 or 8 children. Comments from non-catholics always seemed

to consist of remarks to one another like " oh, she's a catholic " as if

that were the reason.

Lorraine

Mum to: 10, Natasha 8, 5, ph nearly 3

[Guest guest]

On the way down, it took me a while to get on the train and I had reserved a

table and 3 seats, someone was just about to take my seats he said " we'll

take these and you can have the airline style seats " I told him that I had

reserved those seats especially and I was not giving them up for him or

anyone else!

Trisha

SAHM to 3 boys

-----

I always reserve my seats and it's amazing the amount of times we have found

people sitting in them, even though they have the tickets stuck in the backs of

the seats. I always make the people move, did have one person refuse, so I just

went up to the buffy car and complained and they got somebody to move them and I

got a free cup of tea.

Coming back from conference last year I paid a fiver and upgraded to first

class, the train was really really full so I'm glad I did. Anyway these four

blokes came into the coach and were being really loud and quite obviously were

all very drunk. I went and complained to the ticket chappie came straight up and

moved them back to their proper seats. Later on they were removed from the train

by British Rail police who got on at Bristol, they were going to Penzance. So I

don't know how they got their in the end.

Rotter aren't I. Tee hee.

Tupman

Mum to Matt 13, 10, Jonty 21 months & Phil 36

NCT Houseswap Register Coordinator

[Guest guest]

I don't think that's necessarily anything to do with having children. My

son has had to chuck people out of seats when he and his GF have had

reservations. In fact, on the rare occasion I go on a train these days I'm

always astonished ifs there *isn't* anyone in my seat!!

People have never really come to terms with booking a reservation on long

distance trains, I reckon. They think it's like getting on a bus.

Lesley

--------------

From: Trisha@

On the way down, it took me a while to get on the train and I had reserved

a

table and 3 seats, someone was just about to take my seats he said " we'll

take these and you can have the airline style seats " I told him that I

had

reserved those seats especially and I was not giving them up for him or

anyone else!

[Guest guest]

I rember as a student, long before I had children of my own' going by train

from Sheffield to Penzance. The train was packed (Xmas) and all the seats

were booked. So I was horrifed to find a very young mum and a toddler in the

seat opporsite. All my pregides said the next 6 hours will be hell! They

weren't, they were obviously old hands at visiting Granny on the train and

the little girl behaved impecably all the way.

Now the boot is firmly on the other foot and it is my duty to ensure my DDs

are reasonable and hope people accept my best efforts.

Sue Hutchinson Mum to 30/01/98 and Isobel (HB) 23/02/01

[Guest guest]

> I think part of the attitde problems that there may be is down to

> children's behaviour. Our children have been taken to restaurants

and

> like places since birth. They are expected to sit, eat and converse

> as a family. They are not expected to run riot round the tables,

yell

> and scream or throw food around. And they don't. This isn't

because

> they are perfect children (I wish) but because that is what they

have

> always had to do. At the worst toddler ages we would take plenty of

> little toys, snacky foods (like breadsticks or fruit), books and

other

> such stuff but they wouldn't be allowed out of the high chair at

all.

> (I'm not talking about the sort of kiddies restaurants with play

> areas, of course they are allowed down to play there.) I think a

lot

> of people look horrorstruck at families entering places because they

> are expecting to have their meals or conversations ruined but it

> doesn't have to be like that.

I hate those new type restaurants with play areas. (Sorry if I offend

anyone here) At Christmas we deliberately booked somewhere without

this facility as I prefer for DSS to sit with us whilst eating instead

of running riot. I always used to go to restaurants as a child and

would quite happily sit at table with a colouring book etc so I don't

see why DSS cannot sit down as well ( he does behave beautifully

actually). As far as I am concerned there is a time for playing and a

time for sitting down and eating. Fair enough for kids parties and

all. Otherwise I'd rather we all sat away from the childrens area.

It also annoys me when they sit me in the kids area (which is always

noisy and dirty) when I have just DD1 (3 months) with me. She's hardly

going to want to use the ball pit! I can't see why we can't sit in the

'adult' area with her as if she is noisy I just give her 'the magic

nipple' and she's quiet again :-)

I think if you do your best to make sure your children behave well in

'adult' areas then why shouldn't you be allowed to use them. But it is

nice to have places for them to run riot if they want - they are

after all children at the end of the day.

[Guest guest]

hi this is not grog typing

Re: Attitudes to children and babies

> I rember as a student, long before I had children of my own' going by

train

> from Sheffield to Penzance. The train was packed (Xmas) and all the seats

> were booked. So I was horrifed to find a very young mum and a toddler in

the

> seat opporsite. All my pregides said the next 6 hours will be hell! They

> weren't, they were obviously old hands at visiting Granny on the train and

> the little girl behaved impecably all the way.

>

> Now the boot is firmly on the other foot and it is my duty to ensure my

DDs

> are reasonable and hope people accept my best efforts.

>

> Sue Hutchinson Mum to 30/01/98 and Isobel (HB) 23/02/01

>

>

>

> *** NCT enquiry line - 0 ***

>

> Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi this is not grog typing

Re: Attitudes to children and babies

> I rember as a student, long before I had children of my own' going by

train

> from Sheffield to Penzance. The train was packed (Xmas) and all the seats

> were booked. So I was horrifed to find a very young mum and a toddler in

the

> seat opporsite. All my pregides said the next 6 hours will be hell! They

> weren't, they were obviously old hands at visiting Granny on the train and

> the little girl behaved impecably all the way.

>

> Now the boot is firmly on the other foot and it is my duty to ensure my

DDs

> are reasonable and hope people accept my best efforts.

>

> Sue Hutchinson Mum to 30/01/98 and Isobel (HB) 23/02/01

>

>

>

> *** NCT enquiry line - 0 ***

>

> Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Apologies for incomprehensible spelling, this pooter should auto spell check

before sending!!! However its spell checker has gone potty and not seeing

errors. I 'll have to call the resident Geek, otherwise known as DH :-)

Sue Hutchinson Mum to 30/01/98 and Isobel (HB) 23/02/01