Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Hi Katy. I would think it was the opposite, that if your temps are dropping again, you need an increase, not a decrease. Of course, I'm not personally recommending a dose increase, but I'm curious as to why you thought you needed to decrease. Do you have any labs to go with these observations, and what about symptoms other than temperature and weight? We you feeling hyper symptoms? As far as the weight goes, so many things can influence it in the upward direction. No matter what med or what dose, I still have to fight for every pound that I lose. I've been on thyroid meds for 35 years and have yet to witness spontaneous weight loss, although I can get relief from the other symptoms... Judy Now - I have just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation with my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour after a period of good stuff? All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Hi Judy Thanks for your reply. Well I was not feeling well on 2 1/2 grains and looking back I felt better on 2 grains. My doc says that my not feeling well (eg extreme tiredness) was probably " hyper " symptoms from taking too much hormone for me. My blood tests certainly showed that I was right at the top of the range for T4 and T3, so it all seemed logical. I do feel MUCH better having gone back to 2 grains - except the body temperatures and weight thing. There is no logic in it. My body temps have slowly improved over 8 months, and then a sudden drop over the past 6 weeks. It seems illogical but it really does seem to be related to the rise in Armour dosage. Katy > > Hi Katy. I would think it was the opposite, that if your temps are dropping again, you need an increase, not a decrease. Of course, I'm not personally recommending a dose increase, but I'm curious as to why you thought you needed to decrease. Do you have any labs to go with these observations, and what about symptoms other than temperature and weight? We you feeling hyper symptoms? > > As far as the weight goes, so many things can influence it in the upward direction. No matter what med or what dose, I still have to fight for every pound that I lose. I've been on thyroid meds for 35 years and have yet to witness spontaneous weight loss, although I can get relief from the other symptoms... Judy > > --------------------------------- > > Now - I have just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation with my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY > would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour after a period of good stuff? > > > > --------------------------------- > All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Kate The greater question is how did you FEEL on Armour, in the greater amt? Did you FEEL better on that amt of Armour? Armour is not a weight loss substance, and is never to be used for that purpose. Some people lose weight on it, others don't. You've not mentioned at all how you feel physically, and also after the drop in hormone. If you've been working out more, the weight may be from more fit, heavier muscles. One lb of muscle actually LOOKS smaller than one lb of fat, but exersise tones the muscles to where sometimes a person actually gains weight while exercising, so maybe don't look at the pounds as much as how your clothes are fitting. Are you having any swelling in your hands, feet, or legs? Also could be water weight, while your body is adjusting to a greater amt of hormone. It could be many things. Low again > I'm feeling pretty disappointed right now, and also confused! > > I've been taking Armour thyroid since January, with slow increases > up from 1/2 grain to 2 1/2 grains. Over that time, my body > temperatures were on a steady increase and many of my symptoms were > improving, including a slow weight loss amounting to 4.2 pounds > during May to August, and I was really pleased. > > BUT I did my September weigh-in this weekend and found that I have > GAINED BACK 3.4 pounds of the weight I lost over the preceeding four > months. This coincides with my move up to 2 1/2 grains last month > and also with my body temperatures slumping massively. Now - I have > just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation with > my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY > would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour after > a period of good stuff? Is it that it was too much hormone for my > body? Do you think I can expect to see improvement again now I have > moved back down to 2 grains? This is really soul destroying - > please help me - I need some advice ... > > Katy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Hi I certainly don't regard Armour as a weight loss drug! Weight gain is only one of my symptoms which appeared to be improving once I started taking it. As I said before, I've been slowly feeling better on Armour, but once I got to 2 1/2 grains I did not feel as good as I did on 2 grains. I've posted here many times about my array of symptoms so I didn't think I would bore everyone again with the details. One of my problems is brain fog, so I usually can't remember all my symptoms at any given time anyway! As you ask, though, my perennial problem as I have been increasing doses is that I would get " hyper " symptoms of extreme tiredness, for example, when I was taking 1 grain at once, a couple of hours later I would feel terrible - like I had to sit down, lay my head of the table etc. However, when I started to split to dose up even more so I only took 1/2 grain at a time, this problem disappeared and I feel good, energetic and awake basically the whole time. The tiredness increased quite dramatically when I moved up to 2 1/2 grains. I didn't have so many " good " days and would have that hyper extreme tiredness most of the time. Counting up the good days, in six weeks on 2 grains I had 30 good days, but when I moved up to 2 1/2 grains, in the same period I only had 15 good days. FYI Generally on Armour, my depression and general energy levels have improved, as did my body temperatures, appetite and weight loss. I don't need an afternoon nap regularly any more. My brain fog/confusion has not really improved, and my eyebrows are still sparse. Although the weight gain over this period puzzles and worries me, also I am worried by the body temperature slump. I had moved up to an average monthly 97.5F by August from starting an average 97.1F in January. This month it will be back to 97.2F again. Although they would seem to be connected (slow metabolism causing weight gain) it doesn't make sense ... which is why I posted to see if anybody else had experienced this phenomenon. I don't work out right now - I haven't yet got back sufficient energy to return to Pilates which I used to do. I don't have swollen hands and feet. My diet has not changed. Nothing has changed over the time of the weight gain and the slump in body temperatures except my moving up from 2 grains to 2 1/2 grains. But I don't understand why an increase in Armour would cause this ... unless this can also be a " hyper " symptom. Katy > > Kate > > The greater question is how did you FEEL on Armour, in the greater amt? Did > you FEEL better on that amt of Armour? Armour is not a weight loss > substance, and is never to be used for that purpose. Some people lose > weight on it, others don't. You've not mentioned at all how you feel > physically, and also after the drop in hormone. If you've been working out > more, the weight may be from more fit, heavier muscles. One lb of muscle > actually LOOKS smaller than one lb of fat, but exersise tones the muscles to > where sometimes a person actually gains weight while exercising, so maybe > don't look at the pounds as much as how your clothes are fitting. Are you > having any swelling in your hands, feet, or legs? Also could be water > weight, while your body is adjusting to a greater amt of hormone. It could > be many things. > > > > Low again > > > > I'm feeling pretty disappointed right now, and also confused! > > > > I've been taking Armour thyroid since January, with slow increases > > up from 1/2 grain to 2 1/2 grains. Over that time, my body > > temperatures were on a steady increase and many of my symptoms were > > improving, including a slow weight loss amounting to 4.2 pounds > > during May to August, and I was really pleased. > > > > BUT I did my September weigh-in this weekend and found that I have > > GAINED BACK 3.4 pounds of the weight I lost over the preceeding four > > months. This coincides with my move up to 2 1/2 grains last month > > and also with my body temperatures slumping massively. Now - I have > > just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation with > > my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY > > would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour after > > a period of good stuff? Is it that it was too much hormone for my > > body? Do you think I can expect to see improvement again now I have > > moved back down to 2 grains? This is really soul destroying - > > please help me - I need some advice ... > > > > Katy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2006 Report Share Posted September 29, 2006 Someone else may have already said this 100 times, but do you suppose that the move up to 2 and 1/2 grains caused further stress on already stressed adrenal glands? With all the info you just gave, at one time, this seems likely to me. Adrenal fatigue also presents with low body temps and the kind of fatigue or brain fog you're talking about, but not necessarily the weight gain. Just like everyone can't remember what all I've said about myself, I certainly can't remember everything you've said about you. There are hundreds of members on this board, and I don't expect everyone to remember everything I've said about me, plus, given my OWN brain fog, I can't remember theirs. Guess that's why we have so much repetition and recitation of symptoms on the boards, lol. I've gained weight myself, mainly because of lack of energy, combined with the long xtra hot Tx Gulf Coast summer down here. The humidity is horrendous, and a motor that hasn't been running for awhile is much harder to start, IMO, lol. Yep, fatigue is also a symptom of hyper, as well, so I know it's so hard to tell at times. Low again >> >> >> > I'm feeling pretty disappointed right now, and also confused! >> > >> > I've been taking Armour thyroid since January, with slow increases >> > up from 1/2 grain to 2 1/2 grains. Over that time, my body >> > temperatures were on a steady increase and many of my symptoms > were >> > improving, including a slow weight loss amounting to 4.2 pounds >> > during May to August, and I was really pleased. >> > >> > BUT I did my September weigh-in this weekend and found that I have >> > GAINED BACK 3.4 pounds of the weight I lost over the preceeding > four >> > months. This coincides with my move up to 2 1/2 grains last month >> > and also with my body temperatures slumping massively. Now - I > have >> > just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation > with >> > my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY >> > would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour > after >> > a period of good stuff? Is it that it was too much hormone for my >> > body? Do you think I can expect to see improvement again now I > have >> > moved back down to 2 grains? This is really soul destroying - >> > please help me - I need some advice ... >> > >> > Katy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 KATY: You may have just gotten hyper from the T3 in the Armour...and perhpas could solve the problem by adding in a smidge of t4 to offset the loss on that side of the equation, while lowering the t3. In this way..your temp will come up and your will get rid of the puffiness. So...that would mean...go with the two grains and maybe get a 25 mcgs of synthroid and break it in two. Add one now (12.5)....wait a few weeks to see how you feel...then if you still feel a little low in the temps....add the other. I actually like the 50 mcgs because they are white (not dye) and I break them in quarters when I want to make a change. Just remember...that you can be creative and get exactly what you need with the thyroid meds...and you have to be willing to remember they weren't thinking of individual needs when they spit the pills out of the factories. ~E:) TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. Re: Low again Hi JudyThanks for your reply. Well I was not feeling well on 2 1/2 grains and looking back I felt better on 2 grains. My doc says that my not feeling well (eg extreme tiredness) was probably "hyper" symptoms from taking too much hormone for me. My blood tests certainly showed that I was right at the top of the range for T4 and T3, so it all seemed logical. I do feel MUCH better having gone back to 2 grains - except the body temperatures and weight thing. There is no logic in it. My body temps have slowly improved over 8 months, and then a sudden drop over the past 6 weeks. It seems illogical but it really does seem to be related to the rise in Armour dosage.Katy>> Hi Katy. I would think it was the opposite, that if your temps are dropping again, you need an increase, not a decrease. Of course, I'm not personally recommending a dose increase, but I'm curious as to why you thought you needed to decrease. Do you have any labs to go with these observations, and what about symptoms other than temperature and weight? We you feeling hyper symptoms?> > As far as the weight goes, so many things can influence it in the upward direction. No matter what med or what dose, I still have to fight for every pound that I lose. I've been on thyroid meds for 35 years and have yet to witness spontaneous weight loss, although I can get relief from the other symptoms... Judy> > ------------ --------- --------- ---> > Now - I have just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation with my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY > would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour after a period of good stuff?> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 KATY: You may have just gotten hyper from the T3 in the Armour...and perhpas could solve the problem by adding in a smidge of t4 to offset the loss on that side of the equation, while lowering the t3. In this way..your temp will come up and your will get rid of the puffiness. So...that would mean...go with the two grains and maybe get a 25 mcgs of synthroid and break it in two. Add one now (12.5)....wait a few weeks to see how you feel...then if you still feel a little low in the temps....add the other. I actually like the 50 mcgs because they are white (not dye) and I break them in quarters when I want to make a change. Just remember...that you can be creative and get exactly what you need with the thyroid meds...and you have to be willing to remember they weren't thinking of individual needs when they spit the pills out of the factories. ~E:) TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. Re: Low again Hi JudyThanks for your reply. Well I was not feeling well on 2 1/2 grains and looking back I felt better on 2 grains. My doc says that my not feeling well (eg extreme tiredness) was probably "hyper" symptoms from taking too much hormone for me. My blood tests certainly showed that I was right at the top of the range for T4 and T3, so it all seemed logical. I do feel MUCH better having gone back to 2 grains - except the body temperatures and weight thing. There is no logic in it. My body temps have slowly improved over 8 months, and then a sudden drop over the past 6 weeks. It seems illogical but it really does seem to be related to the rise in Armour dosage.Katy>> Hi Katy. I would think it was the opposite, that if your temps are dropping again, you need an increase, not a decrease. Of course, I'm not personally recommending a dose increase, but I'm curious as to why you thought you needed to decrease. Do you have any labs to go with these observations, and what about symptoms other than temperature and weight? We you feeling hyper symptoms?> > As far as the weight goes, so many things can influence it in the upward direction. No matter what med or what dose, I still have to fight for every pound that I lose. I've been on thyroid meds for 35 years and have yet to witness spontaneous weight loss, although I can get relief from the other symptoms... Judy> > ------------ --------- --------- ---> > Now - I have just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation with my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY > would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour after a period of good stuff?> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 KATY: You may have just gotten hyper from the T3 in the Armour...and perhpas could solve the problem by adding in a smidge of t4 to offset the loss on that side of the equation, while lowering the t3. In this way..your temp will come up and your will get rid of the puffiness. So...that would mean...go with the two grains and maybe get a 25 mcgs of synthroid and break it in two. Add one now (12.5)....wait a few weeks to see how you feel...then if you still feel a little low in the temps....add the other. I actually like the 50 mcgs because they are white (not dye) and I break them in quarters when I want to make a change. Just remember...that you can be creative and get exactly what you need with the thyroid meds...and you have to be willing to remember they weren't thinking of individual needs when they spit the pills out of the factories. ~E:) TOTAL-Thyroidectomy 26 months post-op. Re: Low again Hi JudyThanks for your reply. Well I was not feeling well on 2 1/2 grains and looking back I felt better on 2 grains. My doc says that my not feeling well (eg extreme tiredness) was probably "hyper" symptoms from taking too much hormone for me. My blood tests certainly showed that I was right at the top of the range for T4 and T3, so it all seemed logical. I do feel MUCH better having gone back to 2 grains - except the body temperatures and weight thing. There is no logic in it. My body temps have slowly improved over 8 months, and then a sudden drop over the past 6 weeks. It seems illogical but it really does seem to be related to the rise in Armour dosage.Katy>> Hi Katy. I would think it was the opposite, that if your temps are dropping again, you need an increase, not a decrease. Of course, I'm not personally recommending a dose increase, but I'm curious as to why you thought you needed to decrease. Do you have any labs to go with these observations, and what about symptoms other than temperature and weight? We you feeling hyper symptoms?> > As far as the weight goes, so many things can influence it in the upward direction. No matter what med or what dose, I still have to fight for every pound that I lose. I've been on thyroid meds for 35 years and have yet to witness spontaneous weight loss, although I can get relief from the other symptoms... Judy> > ------------ --------- --------- ---> > Now - I have just moved back down to 2 grains last week (after consultation with my doctor) so I hope this might make a difference but ..... WHY > would my body temps slump and weight go on when taking Armour after a period of good stuff?> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Yes yes yes, E!!! T4 is KNOWN to create the warmth. This is EXACTLY what happened to me in my experiences with all Armour Thyroid. Armour is WONderful, but those ratios were meant for particular people with particular body chemistries. THEIR body cells may be doing something differently right AT the cellular levels in particular body organs that makes them need much much more of the straight T3, as in immediate action. But MY body or someone else's may have to mete it all out very slowly, from conversion principles, from organ to organ. T4 is converted to T3 in the liver in large amts and in other places, but it is a very highly individual thing, for conversion in particular cells in particular body organs, in particular persons. Let's say that my heart and coronary blood vessels have absolutely no problem running on not so much T3, at a wollop, but someone else's takes a huge amt to make the heart beat right, the blood flow better, etc.........If I take the same amt of direct T3 that THEY take, I'm going to be all kinds of all-over-the-place-pumped-up-flushed-heartracing-160 bpm-mind racing-breathing-too-fast, etc...etc....etc.......while they are just all nice and comfy this way, in these amts. It isn't just an All Body thing, it's an organ to organ conversion, and where one organ's cells may not be converting this stuff very well, another body organ may be taking it up and using it all at once. That why it seems that many or some of us get rid of some symptoms, but not others. We don't even know where else T4 is actually used in the 4 iodine atom form, but we do know that the heart uses it in that form, along with conversion to T3. We don't even know yet where all T1, T2, T3, or T4 is individually used, arranged by body organ, instead of "whole body". That's why thyroid hormone type and dosing and proportion is SO different, from person to person, and even in the SAME person, over time. You have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I don't think that synthetic T4 is the best thing to come down the pike for people as described above, but, for me, I MUST have a large amt of T3, coupled with a SMALL amt of direct T3 to feel right (though certainly not like I did when my own thyroid was doing the perfect job for me). After all, it was in these proportions that our own healthy thyroids used to make it, so there must be a good reason for that. Trouble is, we don't have a gland producing it any more, so we don't know what was going on different there, at the glandular level, as it was slowly spilling out into the bloodstream, the way it was originally supposed to. There has GOT to be a good plausible reason why our glands made more of a massive amt of T4 and very little T3, T2, T1, etc... Re: Low again Hi EThanks for the interesting suggestion.I understand however that it is active T3 which is responsible for keeping higher body temperatures (metabolism up) and thus also for the beginnings of weight control. Yes this is a popular school of thought and while I don't think there is anything wrong with it...I like to try and peel the grape from another angle if it doesn't work for ya. There is nothing that says that t3 is soley responsible for weight loss or that it is the only hormone that effects metabolism. This is popular...but not entirely true. What you need is a proper ratio and cascade of conversion into the cells. Whatever gets you there...gets you there. For one thing...if your t3 is too high, you can feel VERY cold (because now the adrenals are taxed) and you can feel quite horrid, and yes, you can have a hard time losing weight too. Yes..even if its ahead of the t4 in your labs. The t3 in Armour is higher ratio-wise than is normal for us humans. Some folks have no issue with this...others do. Those that do...may find that if they correct with synthetic t4...( and lower the t3) they can feel more warm and energized and have less adrenal taxation. You are still experiencing brain fog....and this also points to not enough t4. No...I don't think you'll find too many docs into this idea, but I thought I would put it out there in case you needed something new to ponder. I had the same issue you were describing and have found this ratio fix strategy to be very helpful. If you are looking for literature to look up...there is a doctor Dommise who likes to look at this issue. Gail's Thyroid Tips are also quite comprehensive. In the end, its good that you are taking the time to monitor your temp and watch your body cues. It sounds like you are very close to haveing this whole thing figured out! I wish you lots of peace and light! ~E:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Yes yes yes, E!!! T4 is KNOWN to create the warmth. This is EXACTLY what happened to me in my experiences with all Armour Thyroid. Armour is WONderful, but those ratios were meant for particular people with particular body chemistries. THEIR body cells may be doing something differently right AT the cellular levels in particular body organs that makes them need much much more of the straight T3, as in immediate action. But MY body or someone else's may have to mete it all out very slowly, from conversion principles, from organ to organ. T4 is converted to T3 in the liver in large amts and in other places, but it is a very highly individual thing, for conversion in particular cells in particular body organs, in particular persons. Let's say that my heart and coronary blood vessels have absolutely no problem running on not so much T3, at a wollop, but someone else's takes a huge amt to make the heart beat right, the blood flow better, etc.........If I take the same amt of direct T3 that THEY take, I'm going to be all kinds of all-over-the-place-pumped-up-flushed-heartracing-160 bpm-mind racing-breathing-too-fast, etc...etc....etc.......while they are just all nice and comfy this way, in these amts. It isn't just an All Body thing, it's an organ to organ conversion, and where one organ's cells may not be converting this stuff very well, another body organ may be taking it up and using it all at once. That why it seems that many or some of us get rid of some symptoms, but not others. We don't even know where else T4 is actually used in the 4 iodine atom form, but we do know that the heart uses it in that form, along with conversion to T3. We don't even know yet where all T1, T2, T3, or T4 is individually used, arranged by body organ, instead of "whole body". That's why thyroid hormone type and dosing and proportion is SO different, from person to person, and even in the SAME person, over time. You have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I don't think that synthetic T4 is the best thing to come down the pike for people as described above, but, for me, I MUST have a large amt of T3, coupled with a SMALL amt of direct T3 to feel right (though certainly not like I did when my own thyroid was doing the perfect job for me). After all, it was in these proportions that our own healthy thyroids used to make it, so there must be a good reason for that. Trouble is, we don't have a gland producing it any more, so we don't know what was going on different there, at the glandular level, as it was slowly spilling out into the bloodstream, the way it was originally supposed to. There has GOT to be a good plausible reason why our glands made more of a massive amt of T4 and very little T3, T2, T1, etc... Re: Low again Hi EThanks for the interesting suggestion.I understand however that it is active T3 which is responsible for keeping higher body temperatures (metabolism up) and thus also for the beginnings of weight control. Yes this is a popular school of thought and while I don't think there is anything wrong with it...I like to try and peel the grape from another angle if it doesn't work for ya. There is nothing that says that t3 is soley responsible for weight loss or that it is the only hormone that effects metabolism. This is popular...but not entirely true. What you need is a proper ratio and cascade of conversion into the cells. Whatever gets you there...gets you there. For one thing...if your t3 is too high, you can feel VERY cold (because now the adrenals are taxed) and you can feel quite horrid, and yes, you can have a hard time losing weight too. Yes..even if its ahead of the t4 in your labs. The t3 in Armour is higher ratio-wise than is normal for us humans. Some folks have no issue with this...others do. Those that do...may find that if they correct with synthetic t4...( and lower the t3) they can feel more warm and energized and have less adrenal taxation. You are still experiencing brain fog....and this also points to not enough t4. No...I don't think you'll find too many docs into this idea, but I thought I would put it out there in case you needed something new to ponder. I had the same issue you were describing and have found this ratio fix strategy to be very helpful. If you are looking for literature to look up...there is a doctor Dommise who likes to look at this issue. Gail's Thyroid Tips are also quite comprehensive. In the end, its good that you are taking the time to monitor your temp and watch your body cues. It sounds like you are very close to haveing this whole thing figured out! I wish you lots of peace and light! ~E:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Yes yes yes, E!!! T4 is KNOWN to create the warmth. This is EXACTLY what happened to me in my experiences with all Armour Thyroid. Armour is WONderful, but those ratios were meant for particular people with particular body chemistries. THEIR body cells may be doing something differently right AT the cellular levels in particular body organs that makes them need much much more of the straight T3, as in immediate action. But MY body or someone else's may have to mete it all out very slowly, from conversion principles, from organ to organ. T4 is converted to T3 in the liver in large amts and in other places, but it is a very highly individual thing, for conversion in particular cells in particular body organs, in particular persons. Let's say that my heart and coronary blood vessels have absolutely no problem running on not so much T3, at a wollop, but someone else's takes a huge amt to make the heart beat right, the blood flow better, etc.........If I take the same amt of direct T3 that THEY take, I'm going to be all kinds of all-over-the-place-pumped-up-flushed-heartracing-160 bpm-mind racing-breathing-too-fast, etc...etc....etc.......while they are just all nice and comfy this way, in these amts. It isn't just an All Body thing, it's an organ to organ conversion, and where one organ's cells may not be converting this stuff very well, another body organ may be taking it up and using it all at once. That why it seems that many or some of us get rid of some symptoms, but not others. We don't even know where else T4 is actually used in the 4 iodine atom form, but we do know that the heart uses it in that form, along with conversion to T3. We don't even know yet where all T1, T2, T3, or T4 is individually used, arranged by body organ, instead of "whole body". That's why thyroid hormone type and dosing and proportion is SO different, from person to person, and even in the SAME person, over time. You have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I don't think that synthetic T4 is the best thing to come down the pike for people as described above, but, for me, I MUST have a large amt of T3, coupled with a SMALL amt of direct T3 to feel right (though certainly not like I did when my own thyroid was doing the perfect job for me). After all, it was in these proportions that our own healthy thyroids used to make it, so there must be a good reason for that. Trouble is, we don't have a gland producing it any more, so we don't know what was going on different there, at the glandular level, as it was slowly spilling out into the bloodstream, the way it was originally supposed to. There has GOT to be a good plausible reason why our glands made more of a massive amt of T4 and very little T3, T2, T1, etc... Re: Low again Hi EThanks for the interesting suggestion.I understand however that it is active T3 which is responsible for keeping higher body temperatures (metabolism up) and thus also for the beginnings of weight control. Yes this is a popular school of thought and while I don't think there is anything wrong with it...I like to try and peel the grape from another angle if it doesn't work for ya. There is nothing that says that t3 is soley responsible for weight loss or that it is the only hormone that effects metabolism. This is popular...but not entirely true. What you need is a proper ratio and cascade of conversion into the cells. Whatever gets you there...gets you there. For one thing...if your t3 is too high, you can feel VERY cold (because now the adrenals are taxed) and you can feel quite horrid, and yes, you can have a hard time losing weight too. Yes..even if its ahead of the t4 in your labs. The t3 in Armour is higher ratio-wise than is normal for us humans. Some folks have no issue with this...others do. Those that do...may find that if they correct with synthetic t4...( and lower the t3) they can feel more warm and energized and have less adrenal taxation. You are still experiencing brain fog....and this also points to not enough t4. No...I don't think you'll find too many docs into this idea, but I thought I would put it out there in case you needed something new to ponder. I had the same issue you were describing and have found this ratio fix strategy to be very helpful. If you are looking for literature to look up...there is a doctor Dommise who likes to look at this issue. Gail's Thyroid Tips are also quite comprehensive. In the end, its good that you are taking the time to monitor your temp and watch your body cues. It sounds like you are very close to haveing this whole thing figured out! I wish you lots of peace and light! ~E:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 Sorry, I meant to say that "I must have a large amt of T4 and a small amt of T3". Re: Re: Low again Yes yes yes, E!!! T4 is KNOWN to create the warmth. This is EXACTLY what happened to me in my experiences with all Armour Thyroid. Armour is WONderful, but those ratios were meant for particular people with particular body chemistries. THEIR body cells may be doing something differently right AT the cellular levels in particular body organs that makes them need much much more of the straight T3, as in immediate action. But MY body or someone else's may have to mete it all out very slowly, from conversion principles, from organ to organ. T4 is converted to T3 in the liver in large amts and in other places, but it is a very highly individual thing, for conversion in particular cells in particular body organs, in particular persons. Let's say that my heart and coronary blood vessels have absolutely no problem running on not so much T3, at a wollop, but someone else's takes a huge amt to make the heart beat right, the blood flow better, etc.........If I take the same amt of direct T3 that THEY take, I'm going to be all kinds of all-over-the-place-pumped-up-flushed-heartracing-160 bpm-mind racing-breathing-too-fast, etc...etc....etc.......while they are just all nice and comfy this way, in these amts. It isn't just an All Body thing, it's an organ to organ conversion, and where one organ's cells may not be converting this stuff very well, another body organ may be taking it up and using it all at once. That why it seems that many or some of us get rid of some symptoms, but not others. We don't even know where else T4 is actually used in the 4 iodine atom form, but we do know that the heart uses it in that form, along with conversion to T3. We don't even know yet where all T1, T2, T3, or T4 is individually used, arranged by body organ, instead of "whole body". That's why thyroid hormone type and dosing and proportion is SO different, from person to person, and even in the SAME person, over time. You have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I don't think that synthetic T4 is the best thing to come down the pike for people as described above, but, for me, I MUST have a large amt of T3, coupled with a SMALL amt of direct T3 to feel right (though certainly not like I did when my own thyroid was doing the perfect job for me). After all, it was in these proportions that our own healthy thyroids used to make it, so there must be a good reason for that. Trouble is, we don't have a gland producing it any more, so we don't know what was going on different there, at the glandular level, as it was slowly spilling out into the bloodstream, the way it was originally supposed to. There has GOT to be a good plausible reason why our glands made more of a massive amt of T4 and very little T3, T2, T1, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 Sorry, I meant to say that "I must have a large amt of T4 and a small amt of T3". Re: Re: Low again Yes yes yes, E!!! T4 is KNOWN to create the warmth. This is EXACTLY what happened to me in my experiences with all Armour Thyroid. Armour is WONderful, but those ratios were meant for particular people with particular body chemistries. THEIR body cells may be doing something differently right AT the cellular levels in particular body organs that makes them need much much more of the straight T3, as in immediate action. But MY body or someone else's may have to mete it all out very slowly, from conversion principles, from organ to organ. T4 is converted to T3 in the liver in large amts and in other places, but it is a very highly individual thing, for conversion in particular cells in particular body organs, in particular persons. Let's say that my heart and coronary blood vessels have absolutely no problem running on not so much T3, at a wollop, but someone else's takes a huge amt to make the heart beat right, the blood flow better, etc.........If I take the same amt of direct T3 that THEY take, I'm going to be all kinds of all-over-the-place-pumped-up-flushed-heartracing-160 bpm-mind racing-breathing-too-fast, etc...etc....etc.......while they are just all nice and comfy this way, in these amts. It isn't just an All Body thing, it's an organ to organ conversion, and where one organ's cells may not be converting this stuff very well, another body organ may be taking it up and using it all at once. That why it seems that many or some of us get rid of some symptoms, but not others. We don't even know where else T4 is actually used in the 4 iodine atom form, but we do know that the heart uses it in that form, along with conversion to T3. We don't even know yet where all T1, T2, T3, or T4 is individually used, arranged by body organ, instead of "whole body". That's why thyroid hormone type and dosing and proportion is SO different, from person to person, and even in the SAME person, over time. You have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I don't think that synthetic T4 is the best thing to come down the pike for people as described above, but, for me, I MUST have a large amt of T3, coupled with a SMALL amt of direct T3 to feel right (though certainly not like I did when my own thyroid was doing the perfect job for me). After all, it was in these proportions that our own healthy thyroids used to make it, so there must be a good reason for that. Trouble is, we don't have a gland producing it any more, so we don't know what was going on different there, at the glandular level, as it was slowly spilling out into the bloodstream, the way it was originally supposed to. There has GOT to be a good plausible reason why our glands made more of a massive amt of T4 and very little T3, T2, T1, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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