Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 To those of you who've Starbanded/Starscanned... I know the Diag1 and Diag2 describe to oblique assymetry...but what about the difference in CCs between quadrant 1,2,3, and 4? Ive always known my son's worst assymetry was more at the bottom half of his skull on the right side, which is reflected in his initial scan numbers...the diff between Q1 and Q2 is only about 7 ccs (Q1=244 versus Q2=237), but Q3 and Q4 are double that difference at 14 ccs (Q3=181, Q4=195) - he's clearly bigger on the left side which corresponds to how he looks - flatter on the right, but to me these numbers reflect what I am seeing more than the oblique numbers do. Our ortho (Trish at CIRS) said sometimes you have to look at the scans in different ways to reflect what you see, so I know when we go back for our deciding scan on Jan 2, she will work with us and not just say 'oh the oblique numbers seem ok' but I hadn't seen a lot posted about the quadrants, and they are not highlighted in yellow on the printout, so I was wondering if there were any thoughts. Also - what about the MIN and MAX lines....shouldn't they be lined up like a cross - my son's are tipped - which is a no brainer that the MAX line is off to the left in back which is the side with more volume in back. Yet despite these things being tilted his overall oblique assymetry difference is only 4mm, which is mild! I feel like the oblique number may not be the be all and end all? Please any comments welcome. Also whats the deal with CVAI? My son's is 2.6 so I don't know if that is good or bad. Lastly, his anterior symmetry is great - 97 and posterior is 92. OF course all these numbers are at level 3 - the level one higher showed a higher CI, and I dont remember how all the other numbers compared as she only printed level 3 for us. The worst of his assymetry seems to me to be at level 1-2 on the " slice " (lower) and the worst of the brachy to be at level 4-5 (higher). Anyway sorry to those who don't starscan because all of these terms sound like nonsense! Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Hi , The quadrant numbers are just the volumes of each of the four quadrants of the head. (i.e. Q1 A/L is the anterior (front left) quadrant of the head). Ideally Q1 and Q2 (the front) should be equal and Q3 and Q4 should be equal. The Anterior Symmetry Ratio is the ratio of the two front quadrants and the Posterior Symmetry Ratio is the ratio fo the two back quadrants. Ideally each should be 1.0. Usually the Posterior values are less symmetrical in plagio cases since there is more volume in the back of the head than the front. I don't know the 'norms' for the CVAI values (I believe it's calculated by taking the oblique asymmetry by either the length or width or circumfrence to make a more 'average' number), but my son started at 9.4 when he had 14mm asymmetry and ended at 4.3 when he had 7mm asymmetry and we switched to the DOCband. I think 2.6 sounds pretty good, but it's calculated of the 4mm oblique asymmetry which is also pretty good. I think 3mm or less oblique asymmetry is considered 'normal', so 2.6 CVAI would probably be pretty close to 'normal'. If your son has a 'big' head then 4mm will be closer to normal than a baby with a small head. My son has a small head (432mm to start). As far as the scan reports not showing the whole picture - you are correct - they're only one slice of the head. The next time you visit, ask for the report with all the numbers, not the summary report and it'll have a picture of the 'slices' of the head for each level. Level 3 is taken just above the ears. (There may be a sample in the files section.) If you're really concerned about a different area (i.e. you see asymmetry lower or higher) ask for a printout of those levels. That might help give you a better picture of what bothers you. It my son's case it was the upper levels that were causing me grief even thought the level 3 scans showed improvement. And one final tip. The ear offset also plays tricks with your eyes. I've recently come to believe it's the PT that helps the ears move, not the helmet. (I've seen that rumor before.) We FINALLY got the stretching down correctly and at our latest DOCband measurement, my son's ears moved 1mm even though he'd only grown 2mm in circumfrence. They'd only move .5mm the prior measurement even though he'd had a full 1cm growth during that period. I don't think they moved at all in the STARband with no PT. P.S. The STARscanner ear offset numbers are NOT to be believed. They are only based on where the ortho happens to put the little red dot when they're lining up the scans. My son measured at 4.8mm offset to begin with and 12.5mm at the end of the STARband (which totally freaked me out and helped prompt me to switch), but when we went to the DOCband location he only measured 6mm, so who knows what they were to begin with. Sheila, mom to , 15 months, STARband 3/6-8/6, DOCband 9/6-? > > To those of you who've Starbanded/Starscanned... > > I know the Diag1 and Diag2 describe to oblique assymetry...but what > about the difference in CCs between quadrant 1,2,3, and 4? Ive > always known my son's worst assymetry was more at the bottom half of > his skull on the right side, which is reflected in his initial scan > numbers...the diff between Q1 and Q2 is only about 7 ccs (Q1=244 > versus Q2=237), but Q3 and Q4 are double that difference at 14 ccs > (Q3=181, Q4=195) - he's clearly bigger on the left side which > corresponds to how he looks - flatter on the right, but to me these > numbers reflect what I am seeing more than the oblique numbers do. > Our ortho (Trish at CIRS) said sometimes you have to look at the > scans in different ways to reflect what you see, so I know when we > go back for our deciding scan on Jan 2, she will work with us and > not just say 'oh the oblique numbers seem ok' but I hadn't seen a > lot posted about the quadrants, and they are not highlighted in > yellow on the printout, so I was wondering if there were any > thoughts. > > Also - what about the MIN and MAX lines....shouldn't they be lined > up like a cross - my son's are tipped - which is a no brainer that > the MAX line is off to the left in back which is the side with more > volume in back. Yet despite these things being tilted his overall > oblique assymetry difference is only 4mm, which is mild! I feel > like the oblique number may not be the be all and end all? Please > any comments welcome. > > Also whats the deal with CVAI? My son's is 2.6 so I don't know if > that is good or bad. Lastly, his anterior symmetry is great - 97 > and posterior is 92. > > OF course all these numbers are at level 3 - the level one higher > showed a higher CI, and I dont remember how all the other numbers > compared as she only printed level 3 for us. The worst of his > assymetry seems to me to be at level 1-2 on the " slice " (lower) and > the worst of the brachy to be at level 4-5 (higher). Anyway sorry > to those who don't starscan because all of these terms sound like > nonsense! > > Thanks, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 STARscanner Report with explanation of results (Level 3 measurements) · Cephalic Ratio = Cranial Breadth / Cranial Length. An ideal ratio would be 0.78 or 78%. Brachycephaly Severity - normal - 73-83%; moderate - 83.1% to 87.9%; severe - 88% and higher. Scaphocephaly Severity - normal - 73-83%; moderate - 68.1% to 72.9%; severe - 68% and below. · Radial Symmetry Index (RSI) = from the front of the head, 15° segments are measured and added. The addition of the right side segments is subtracted to the addition of the left side segments. An ideal ratio would be left side – right side = 0 (<30 mm normal) · Oblique Cranial Maximum and Minimum = Ideally one is looking to have the maximum line vertical and the minimum line horizontal. · Oblique at 30 deg (US1 and US2) = Length of diagonal taken at 30° on each side (30° corresponds to the corner of the eye). The subtraction of US1 and US2 gives an indication of the asymmetry of the head. An asymmetry between 0-3 mm is normal; <6 mm is very mild; 6-10 mm is mild; 10-15 mm is moderate; 15+ mm is severe · Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 volumes: Draws vertical and horizontal lines centered on middle point of head. Measures volume of each corner starting front left, then front right, back right and back left. · Anterior Symmetry Ratio: looks at front of head and divides front left volume with front right volume. An ideal ratio would be 1 · Posterior Symmetry Ratio: looks at back of head and divides back right volume with back left volume. An ideal ration would be 1 · Overall Symmetry Ratio: Divides left side with right side. An ideal ratio would be 1 · Upper facial left and upper facial right: Measures the length between the centre of the front to each left and right ear. This corresponds to a cranial bone and determines the position of the ear. · Upper Facial Symmetry Ratio: Divides Upper Facial Right with Upper Facial Left. An ideal ratio would be 1 · Cranial Vault Asymmetry Index (CVAI): the percentage difference in plagio, (100%-(US1/US2)). 0-3 mm normal · Ear Offset - this number seems to be very subjective because the ortho places stickers near the ears that the machine picks up to take this measurement. If they are placed differently each time the number will come out differently Molly California Nicolas, 14 months, tort & plagio, STARband 4/25/06-9/12/06, Graduate! , 3.75 , 7 -----Original Message-----From: Plagiocephaly [mailto:Plagiocephaly ] On Behalf Of vanessackmSent: 23 December 2006 8:20 PMPlagiocephaly Subject: Starscanner numbers...To those of you who've Starbanded/Starscanned...I know the Diag1 and Diag2 describe to oblique assymetry...but whatabout the difference in CCs between quadrant 1,2,3, and 4? Ivealways known my son's worst assymetry was more at the bottom half ofhis skull on the right side, which is reflected in his initial scannumbers...the diff between Q1 and Q2 is only about 7 ccs (Q1=244versus Q2=237), but Q3 and Q4 are double that difference at 14 ccs(Q3=181, Q4=195) - he's clearly bigger on the left side whichcorresponds to how he looks - flatter on the right, but to me thesenumbers reflect what I am seeing more than the oblique numbers do. Our ortho (Trish at CIRS) said sometimes you have to look at thescans in different ways to reflect what you see, so I know when wego back for our deciding scan on Jan 2, she will work with us andnot just say 'oh the oblique numbers seem ok' but I hadn't seen alot posted about the quadrants, and they are not highlighted inyellow on the printout, so I was wondering if there were anythoughts.Also - what about the MIN and MAX lines....shouldn't they be linedup like a cross - my son's are tipped - which is a no brainer thatthe MAX line is off to the left in back which is the side with morevolume in back. Yet despite these things being tilted his overalloblique assymetry difference is only 4mm, which is mild! I feellike the oblique number may not be the be all and end all? Pleaseany comments welcome. Also whats the deal with CVAI? My son's is 2.6 so I don't know ifthat is good or bad. Lastly, his anterior symmetry is great - 97and posterior is 92. OF course all these numbers are at level 3 - the level one highershowed a higher CI, and I dont remember how all the other numberscompared as she only printed level 3 for us. The worst of hisassymetry seems to me to be at level 1-2 on the "slice" (lower) andthe worst of the brachy to be at level 4-5 (higher). Anyway sorryto those who don't starscan because all of these terms sound likenonsense!Thanks,For more plagio info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 You mentioned about whether or not he has a big head which prompted one additional question....at the regular ped's office when they measure circumference with a tape measure (not sure how much I count on that reliability), at his 4.5 month apt (4 month well baby late), his head was only measuring in the 25th percentile while his height/weight were 85th....so I'm guessing his head is on the smaller side, but I'm not sure. At his 4 month scan it was 443mm, so that seems kind of " average " ? Also, will brachy affect the circumference or not since it's just redistributed volume so even if it's not in the back, it still is circumference just put elsewhere? > > > > To those of you who've Starbanded/Starscanned... > > > > I know the Diag1 and Diag2 describe to oblique assymetry...but > what > > about the difference in CCs between quadrant 1,2,3, and 4? Ive > > always known my son's worst assymetry was more at the bottom half > of > > his skull on the right side, which is reflected in his initial > scan > > numbers...the diff between Q1 and Q2 is only about 7 ccs (Q1=244 > > versus Q2=237), but Q3 and Q4 are double that difference at 14 ccs > > (Q3=181, Q4=195) - he's clearly bigger on the left side which > > corresponds to how he looks - flatter on the right, but to me > these > > numbers reflect what I am seeing more than the oblique numbers > do. > > Our ortho (Trish at CIRS) said sometimes you have to look at the > > scans in different ways to reflect what you see, so I know when we > > go back for our deciding scan on Jan 2, she will work with us and > > not just say 'oh the oblique numbers seem ok' but I hadn't seen a > > lot posted about the quadrants, and they are not highlighted in > > yellow on the printout, so I was wondering if there were any > > thoughts. > > > > Also - what about the MIN and MAX lines....shouldn't they be lined > > up like a cross - my son's are tipped - which is a no brainer that > > the MAX line is off to the left in back which is the side with > more > > volume in back. Yet despite these things being tilted his overall > > oblique assymetry difference is only 4mm, which is mild! I feel > > like the oblique number may not be the be all and end all? Please > > any comments welcome. > > > > Also whats the deal with CVAI? My son's is 2.6 so I don't know if > > that is good or bad. Lastly, his anterior symmetry is great - 97 > > and posterior is 92. > > > > OF course all these numbers are at level 3 - the level one higher > > showed a higher CI, and I dont remember how all the other numbers > > compared as she only printed level 3 for us. The worst of his > > assymetry seems to me to be at level 1-2 on the " slice " (lower) > and > > the worst of the brachy to be at level 4-5 (higher). Anyway sorry > > to those who don't starscan because all of these terms sound like > > nonsense! > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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