Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 , Charlotte's cell death did not show up on MRI's either. There was some shrinkage (atrophy) of the whole brain. But with MSA the dead cells seem to be encased with proteins, so they may retain their iron which is what the MRI looks for. This is one thing that makes MSA so difficult to diagnose. If you read the Differential Diagnoses paper, you will also see that they lumped the MSA subgroups only because the end result was so much alike - they still imply that MSA could be many separate brain disorders. That is what makes stem cell research so hopeful. If they can find a cell that goes out and finds dead cells and grows into the dead cell, we don't have to know which cell is dead. To me that is God's design, HE built the knowledge into the cell, not a scientist. Did you read the site that Barb Selleck sent with the interview of the microbiologist? Take care, Bill ========================================= " B. Fisher " wrote: > Greetings Bill! > > Just as a note on this: > > > ... when you have braincells dying for years (who knows how > > many years) it takes some time to show up. About 240,000 > > cells out of 400,000 have to die before the movement disorder > > becomes apparent and symptoms show up. > > Interestingly, it is often common with MSA for this cell death (or > degeneration) not to show up in MRIs for quite some time. As a result of > this and other symptoms, my neurologist finds MSA consistent with my > symptoms. All my MRIs show normal. I suspect in a year to two that might > not be the case. I also suspect it depends on the part of the brain > impacted. For example, the structures controlling balance are quite small. > Cell death in this structure may not be very clear on an MRI. Ditto for > visual coordination centers. > > As a note on surgery. Yes, I had general anesthesia for wisdom teeth > extraction. But I am amazingly resistant to anesthesia of any type. I was > aware of the procedure! Most people remember nothing. I had warned my > surgeon dentists found Novocain to be ineffective for me. I've had numerous > teeth drilled and roots cleaned, still able to feel EVERYTHING! So, he took > he time to explain the procedure to me as he progressed. This helped me > stay calm, even though I could not move. Unpleasant situation. > > So, I personally doubt the anesthesia impacted me. I am more inclined (as > Jerry noted) to think other environmental toxins may have triggered it. > Remember those mosquito foggers? Who knows. As Bill points out, > understanding the process and a cure is more important than fully knowing > the trigger. > > Regards, > =jbf= > > B. Fisher > > If you do not wish to belong to shydrager, you may > unsubscribe by sending a blank email to > > shydrager-unsubscribe > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 , Charlotte's cell death did not show up on MRI's either. There was some shrinkage (atrophy) of the whole brain. But with MSA the dead cells seem to be encased with proteins, so they may retain their iron which is what the MRI looks for. This is one thing that makes MSA so difficult to diagnose. If you read the Differential Diagnoses paper, you will also see that they lumped the MSA subgroups only because the end result was so much alike - they still imply that MSA could be many separate brain disorders. That is what makes stem cell research so hopeful. If they can find a cell that goes out and finds dead cells and grows into the dead cell, we don't have to know which cell is dead. To me that is God's design, HE built the knowledge into the cell, not a scientist. Did you read the site that Barb Selleck sent with the interview of the microbiologist? Take care, Bill ========================================= " B. Fisher " wrote: > Greetings Bill! > > Just as a note on this: > > > ... when you have braincells dying for years (who knows how > > many years) it takes some time to show up. About 240,000 > > cells out of 400,000 have to die before the movement disorder > > becomes apparent and symptoms show up. > > Interestingly, it is often common with MSA for this cell death (or > degeneration) not to show up in MRIs for quite some time. As a result of > this and other symptoms, my neurologist finds MSA consistent with my > symptoms. All my MRIs show normal. I suspect in a year to two that might > not be the case. I also suspect it depends on the part of the brain > impacted. For example, the structures controlling balance are quite small. > Cell death in this structure may not be very clear on an MRI. Ditto for > visual coordination centers. > > As a note on surgery. Yes, I had general anesthesia for wisdom teeth > extraction. But I am amazingly resistant to anesthesia of any type. I was > aware of the procedure! Most people remember nothing. I had warned my > surgeon dentists found Novocain to be ineffective for me. I've had numerous > teeth drilled and roots cleaned, still able to feel EVERYTHING! So, he took > he time to explain the procedure to me as he progressed. This helped me > stay calm, even though I could not move. Unpleasant situation. > > So, I personally doubt the anesthesia impacted me. I am more inclined (as > Jerry noted) to think other environmental toxins may have triggered it. > Remember those mosquito foggers? Who knows. As Bill points out, > understanding the process and a cure is more important than fully knowing > the trigger. > > Regards, > =jbf= > > B. Fisher > > If you do not wish to belong to shydrager, you may > unsubscribe by sending a blank email to > > shydrager-unsubscribe > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 , Charlotte's cell death did not show up on MRI's either. There was some shrinkage (atrophy) of the whole brain. But with MSA the dead cells seem to be encased with proteins, so they may retain their iron which is what the MRI looks for. This is one thing that makes MSA so difficult to diagnose. If you read the Differential Diagnoses paper, you will also see that they lumped the MSA subgroups only because the end result was so much alike - they still imply that MSA could be many separate brain disorders. That is what makes stem cell research so hopeful. If they can find a cell that goes out and finds dead cells and grows into the dead cell, we don't have to know which cell is dead. To me that is God's design, HE built the knowledge into the cell, not a scientist. Did you read the site that Barb Selleck sent with the interview of the microbiologist? Take care, Bill ========================================= " B. Fisher " wrote: > Greetings Bill! > > Just as a note on this: > > > ... when you have braincells dying for years (who knows how > > many years) it takes some time to show up. About 240,000 > > cells out of 400,000 have to die before the movement disorder > > becomes apparent and symptoms show up. > > Interestingly, it is often common with MSA for this cell death (or > degeneration) not to show up in MRIs for quite some time. As a result of > this and other symptoms, my neurologist finds MSA consistent with my > symptoms. All my MRIs show normal. I suspect in a year to two that might > not be the case. I also suspect it depends on the part of the brain > impacted. For example, the structures controlling balance are quite small. > Cell death in this structure may not be very clear on an MRI. Ditto for > visual coordination centers. > > As a note on surgery. Yes, I had general anesthesia for wisdom teeth > extraction. But I am amazingly resistant to anesthesia of any type. I was > aware of the procedure! Most people remember nothing. I had warned my > surgeon dentists found Novocain to be ineffective for me. I've had numerous > teeth drilled and roots cleaned, still able to feel EVERYTHING! So, he took > he time to explain the procedure to me as he progressed. This helped me > stay calm, even though I could not move. Unpleasant situation. > > So, I personally doubt the anesthesia impacted me. I am more inclined (as > Jerry noted) to think other environmental toxins may have triggered it. > Remember those mosquito foggers? Who knows. As Bill points out, > understanding the process and a cure is more important than fully knowing > the trigger. > > Regards, > =jbf= > > B. Fisher > > If you do not wish to belong to shydrager, you may > unsubscribe by sending a blank email to > > shydrager-unsubscribe > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Greetings Bill! Sigh! I've had lots of 'fun' with my network today. Oh well. It's very important that everyone hear what you said, so let me emphasize it: > If you read the Differential Diagnoses paper, you will > also see that they lumped the MSA subgroups only because > the end result was so much alike - they still imply that > MSA could be many separate brain disorders. In other words, after a certain point, only an autopsy can provide a definitive diagnosis. Now, I want to know what's wrong, but I'm not THAT interested in the result !!! So, even if you don't know for certain, find a doctor that wants to help you manage the disorder. UNLESS you need the diagnosis for declaration of long term disability, there is no need to hunt for a certain diagnosis. After a certain point, doctors simply can not tell, with the tools they now have in the diagnostic tool bag. So, work on management .. it's a better investment! > To me that is God's design, HE built the knowledge into the > cell, not a scientist. Did you read the site that Barb > Selleck sent with the interview of the microbiologist? Yes. Though, I thought this scientist was a bit more reluctant Christian that some I know. Many see the wonder of the universe from the subatomic, through the cell into the wide universe as just another sign along the way. Regards, =jbf= B. Fisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Greetings Bill! Sigh! I've had lots of 'fun' with my network today. Oh well. It's very important that everyone hear what you said, so let me emphasize it: > If you read the Differential Diagnoses paper, you will > also see that they lumped the MSA subgroups only because > the end result was so much alike - they still imply that > MSA could be many separate brain disorders. In other words, after a certain point, only an autopsy can provide a definitive diagnosis. Now, I want to know what's wrong, but I'm not THAT interested in the result !!! So, even if you don't know for certain, find a doctor that wants to help you manage the disorder. UNLESS you need the diagnosis for declaration of long term disability, there is no need to hunt for a certain diagnosis. After a certain point, doctors simply can not tell, with the tools they now have in the diagnostic tool bag. So, work on management .. it's a better investment! > To me that is God's design, HE built the knowledge into the > cell, not a scientist. Did you read the site that Barb > Selleck sent with the interview of the microbiologist? Yes. Though, I thought this scientist was a bit more reluctant Christian that some I know. Many see the wonder of the universe from the subatomic, through the cell into the wide universe as just another sign along the way. Regards, =jbf= B. Fisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Greetings Bill! Sigh! I've had lots of 'fun' with my network today. Oh well. It's very important that everyone hear what you said, so let me emphasize it: > If you read the Differential Diagnoses paper, you will > also see that they lumped the MSA subgroups only because > the end result was so much alike - they still imply that > MSA could be many separate brain disorders. In other words, after a certain point, only an autopsy can provide a definitive diagnosis. Now, I want to know what's wrong, but I'm not THAT interested in the result !!! So, even if you don't know for certain, find a doctor that wants to help you manage the disorder. UNLESS you need the diagnosis for declaration of long term disability, there is no need to hunt for a certain diagnosis. After a certain point, doctors simply can not tell, with the tools they now have in the diagnostic tool bag. So, work on management .. it's a better investment! > To me that is God's design, HE built the knowledge into the > cell, not a scientist. Did you read the site that Barb > Selleck sent with the interview of the microbiologist? Yes. Though, I thought this scientist was a bit more reluctant Christian that some I know. Many see the wonder of the universe from the subatomic, through the cell into the wide universe as just another sign along the way. Regards, =jbf= B. Fisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Dear Valarie, In response to your query about general anesthesia, I believe that my dad has been under it at some point although I don't have the specific info at my fingertips. I have often wondered if the cause of his MSA was related to exposure to Lyme's Disease. He was exposed (due to deer tick bite) in the late 1980s. At that time he began having symptoms of extreme tiredness, joint pain, and other common symptoms of Lyme's. He was diagnosed and treated and then retreated a few years later. Because Lyme's can have a neurological effect I initially thought that it was maybe related. His doctors have never asserted this to be the case. I did a little reading on Lyme's and came to the conclusion that probably that is not the cause. However, it still makes me wonder if there is some infectious agent out there that causes this. It would have to be something that is relatively rare since MSA is rare. Anyway, my point here is not to spread a half-baked theory about Lyme's and MSA, but rather to state that it is good to question all these things and hard to not question every possible cause when you are affected. Ultimately, finding the right questions will lead to the answers. Best wishes, Cindy V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 In a message dated 1/16/02 8:44:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, b.werre@... writes: << remember when they fitted shoes in the 40's with x-rays? That was great fun looking at your toes move in the shoes. That green color was caused by x-rays. >> Oh my God! I had no idea that they did this! I once read that Roentgen, who invented the x-ray (or roentgenogram) x-rayed his wife's hand so many times in his experiments that it finally decayed and fell off. Cindy V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Cindy, He must have x-rayed it a lot. We had to adjust x-ray machines and always wore a lead glove as you had to go into the beam to adjust it. Once a fellow worker adjusted it without the glove, he lost two fingers. It took weeks to lose them, less than a minute in the beam. But I did work around a nuclear reactor (you were 20 ft above the core with water protecting you - it also glowed green) in Denver and ratioactive materials, as well as x-rays for 30 years. Never had a significant amount of radiation, but always wore protective gear and radiation badge. I probably got twice what an average person gets in my lifetime. I think the answer is FAR more complicated than one source. Take care, Bill =========================================== cav285@... wrote: > In a message dated 1/16/02 8:44:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, > b.werre@... writes: > > << remember when they fitted shoes in the 40's > with x-rays? That was great fun looking at your toes move in the shoes. > That > green color was caused by x-rays. >> > > Oh my God! I had no idea that they did this! I once read that Roentgen, who > invented the x-ray (or roentgenogram) x-rayed his wife's hand so many times > in his experiments that it finally decayed and fell off. > > Cindy V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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