Just a thought about the evil coumadin... :)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/19/2005 7:40:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

quarteracreorchids@... writes:

And I got off coumadin as fast as I could once I was back in rhythm... it

took me 4 months (I had been in afib for 6 weeks when i started)), but as soon

as I was given the ok, I stopped....

Did everyone see the news about Coretta King, who was diagnosed with

afib only few months ago? She suffered a major stroke and is hospitalized with

serious impairment.

So when I hear people say they want off of coumadin as fast as possible, I

find myself wondering which is the worse devil...the coumadin? or the stroke

that is waiting for afibbers at a much higher rate than those without afib?

I know coumadin is no picnic and has its own side effects. I will never be

without it, though, due to my mitral valve involvement...and in and out of afib

(currently out). Before getting off of this potentially LIFE SAVING

medication I would do a lot of research, discussion with the doctors etc. I

would

not consider it the evil drug, rather a life saving one.

Lil

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/19/2005 2:17:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,

piemelon@... writes:

Last week my surfboard hit me in the chest as I was kicking out of a wave

and I have a bruise the size of a pie plate. However, I'm staying with

coumadin.

I love that you're surfing, Dave. Hang ten, and I don't mean milligrams,

either!

Lil

[Guest guest]

I agree Lil. I believe it's very risky to go off coumadin unless your afib is

gone, gone, gone. I am tired of bleeding on things from the smallest scratch

and occasionally look like my wife beats me because of brusies. Last week my

surfboard hit me in the chest as I was kicking out of a wave and I have a bruise

the size of a pie plate. However, I'm staying with coumadin.

Dave

Just a thought about the evil coumadin...

In a message dated 8/19/2005 7:40:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,

quarteracreorchids@... writes:

And I got off coumadin as fast as I could once I was back in rhythm... it

took me 4 months (I had been in afib for 6 weeks when i started)), but as soon

as I was given the ok, I stopped....

Did everyone see the news about Coretta King, who was diagnosed with

afib only few months ago? She suffered a major stroke and is hospitalized with

serious impairment.

So when I hear people say they want off of coumadin as fast as possible, I

find myself wondering which is the worse devil...the coumadin? or the stroke

that is waiting for afibbers at a much higher rate than those without afib?

I know coumadin is no picnic and has its own side effects. I will never be

without it, though, due to my mitral valve involvement...and in and out of afib

(currently out). Before getting off of this potentially LIFE SAVING

medication I would do a lot of research, discussion with the doctors etc. I

would

not consider it the evil drug, rather a life saving one.

Lil

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/19/2005 10:26:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,

isthatmick@... writes:

Am I missing something here?

I have been on Warfarin for 5 years and have never noticed anything

untoward.

INR usually at lower end of 2

What is the big problem that `brands` this drug as evil?

That is precisely my question. I see many people on the line here who state

that they want off of coumadin just as fast as possible. They feel it is

horrible to be on this drug. I think, in my case, I may be slipping in and out

of

afib already since my cardiovert. The first question the physician covering

for my doctor asked me tonight when i called was...ARE YOU ON COUMADIN?? That

is ESSENTIAL. Other than that, if you are back in afib, and your pulse is not

racing above 150, no chest pain, light headedness or breathlessness you are

OKAY. We will work on making the NSR more steady.

If someone goes in and out of afib, from everything I had read or heard,

except in rare instances (lone afib possibly? very young patient?) they need to

be on warfarin/coumadin.

Lil

[Guest guest]

Am I missing something here?

I have been on Warfarin for 5 years and have never noticed anything

untoward.

INR usually at lower end of 2

What is the big problem that `brands` this drug as evil?

>

>

> In a message dated 8/19/2005 2:17:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> piemelon@a... writes:

>

> Last week my surfboard hit me in the chest as I was kicking out of

a wave

> and I have a bruise the size of a pie plate. However, I'm staying

with

> coumadin.

>

>

>

>

> I love that you're surfing, Dave. Hang ten, and I don't mean

milligrams,

> either!

> Lil

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lil, the worse devil is lack of information. Coretta King is 78

with a medical history I'm not familiar with, basing my decision on

whether to take warfarin or not on the events in her life would be fool

hardy.

The stroke risk for AFers has a massive variation, ranging from quite

high to no bigger than the general population.

People should do their own research and discuss their own individual

circumstances with their doctors. Sadly some research suggests doctors

get it wrong in both directions, some people who should be on warfarin

aren't and some people who shouldn't be on warfarin are.

The bottom line is that one should take warfarin if, but only if, it's

appropriate. Having AF is not enough information to make that decision.

Here's my starter pack for those wanting to do some reading...

ACC/AHA/ESC Guidelines for the Management of Patients with Atrial

Fibrillation:

Preventing Thromboembolism

http://www.acc.org/clinical/guidelines/atrial_fib/VIII_management.htm#VIII_G

Indications for Anticoagulation in Atrial Fibrillation

http://www.aafp.org/afp/980700ap/akhtar.html

Risk factors for stroke and efficacy of antithrombotic therapy in atrial

fibrillation. Analysis of pooled data from five randomized controlled

trials.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=8\

018000 & dopt=Abstract

Systematic review of long term anticoagulation or antiplatelet treatment

in patients with non-rheumatic atrial fibrillation

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez & artid=26572

Letter/Correspondance

Anticoagulation therapy for patients with atrial fibrillation

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/163/8/956

The effect of warfarin and intensity of anticoagulation on outcome of

intracerebral hemorrhage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abs\

tract & list_uids=15111374

Oral anticoagulation and risk of death: a medical record linkage study

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez & artid=131183

and for further reading

Google

www.google.com

PubMED

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/gquery/gquery.fcgi

Stroke journal

http://stroke.ahajournals.org/

--

D

[Guest guest]

cnetwork@... wrote:

> If someone goes in and out of afib, from everything I had read or heard,

> except in rare instances (lone afib possibly? very young patient?) they

> need to

> be on warfarin/coumadin.

> Lil

>

Hi Lil,

One of the cardiologists I see says that I don't need coumadin PRECISELY

BECAUSE I am " in and out of afib " and the episodes rarely last longer

than 24 hours. Aspirin, according to him, is the only anti-coagulation

therapy that is indicated for me. He would reserve coumadin for people

who have longer episodes of afib when they are " in " or are persistent.

The EP I see agrees - in a sense - that the risk of stroke from coumadin

is the same as the risk of stroke from afib for me, but only because in

my case I have not been in afib for almost a year. This EP would insist

on coumadin if I were " in and out of afib " with any regularity. But he

says I can decide whether or not to take it, given my particular

circumstances.

My internist says " better safe than sorry " .

So I have heard a variety of well informed medical opinions. And I know

of one person who died from coumadin. But I still take it and keep my

INRs as close to 2.0 as possible. But taking it bothers me - not because

it is rat poison (that seems funny to me) but because the safe

therapeutic range is narrow, rather problematic to maintain, and even

when maintained, induces serious risks of its own.

While I have no doubt coumadin prevents more strokes than it causes in

the larger picture of all people with afib who take it, I certainly

understand why an individual would not want to use it. The bruising and

bleeding are annoying, and if one needs emergency surgery, it adds a

complication. Not to mention that if you suffer a trauma that causes

significant bleeding, you are more likely to bleed to death while

waiting for an ambulance than if you did not take coumadin.

I happen to be 63. In the young patients you refer to, coumadin is used

much less frequently. Apparently, as we age the left atrial appendage

gets " stiffer " and more likely to support the formation of a clot. In

any case, statistics apparently point to the conclusion that afib is

more likely to produce a stroke the older we get. I'm a little fuzzy on

how this was studied and how the conclusion was reached.

Like many other aspects of afib, there is no " one size fits all " solution.

- OU alum in MI

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/20/2005 4:46:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,

link@... writes:

While I have no doubt coumadin prevents more strokes than it causes in

the larger picture of all people with afib who take it, I certainly

understand why an individual would not want to use it. The bruising and

bleeding are annoying, and if one needs emergency surgery, it adds a

complication. Not to mention that if you suffer a trauma that causes

significant bleeding, you are more likely to bleed to death while

waiting for an ambulance than if you did not take coumadin.

I happen to be 63. In the young patients you refer to, coumadin is used

much less frequently. Apparently, as we age the left atrial appendage

gets " stiffer " and more likely to support the formation of a clot. In

any case, statistics apparently point to the conclusion that afib is

more likely to produce a stroke the older we get. I'm a little fuzzy on

how this was studied and how the conclusion was reached.

Like many other aspects of afib, there is no " one size fits all " solution.

Thank you for all this good information. I agree with you that not one size

fits all. It just seemed that most people hate coumadin. I am not thrilled to

be on it myself. But I cannot possibly feel safe without it. I hope they

will be coming up with a safer blood thinning drug soon - I kept hearing about

it but lately, no news.

Lil

[Guest guest]

-

,

I am just catching up on my messages and wanted to thank you for the

great sites you listed. It bothered me when I read about Coretta

King, first for her and then as a 72 woman with Afib. They

have told me Coumadin will always be a part of my life even with a

successful Ablation. The doctors have indicated it will help reduce

the probability of my having a stroke, which makes taking it

worthwhile. (although I hate it)

I have gone to several of your sites and found them to be most

informative and helpful and will visit the rest later.

Thanks again,

BARB IN PA

-- In AFIBsupport , Driscoll <james@d...> wrote:

> Hi Lil, the worse devil is lack of information. Coretta King

is 78

> with a medical history I'm not familiar with, basing my decision on

> whether to take warfarin or not on the events in her life would be

fool

> hardy.snip

decision.

>

> Here's my starter pack for those wanting to do some reading...

>

> ACC/AHA/ESC Guidelines for the Management of Patients with Atrial

> Fibrillation:

> Preventing Thromboembolism

>

http://www.acc.org/clinical/guidelines/atrial_fib/VIII_management.htm#

VIII_G

>

> Indications for Anticoagulation in Atrial Fibrillation

> http://www.aafp.org/afp/980700ap/akhtar.html

>

> Risk factors for stroke and efficacy of antithrombotic therapy in

atrial

> fibrillation. Analysis of pooled data from five randomized

controlled

> trials.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=8018000 & dopt=Abstract

>

>

> Systematic review of long term anticoagulation or antiplatelet

treatment

> in patients with non-rheumatic atrial fibrillation

> http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?

tool=pmcentrez & artid=26572

>

>

> Letter/Correspondance

> Anticoagulation therapy for patients with atrial fibrillation

> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/163/8/956

>

> The effect of warfarin and intensity of anticoagulation on outcome

of

> intracerebral hemorrhage.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15111374

>

> Oral anticoagulation and risk of death: a medical record linkage

study

> http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?

tool=pmcentrez & artid=131183

>

>

> and for further reading

> Google

> www.google.com

>

> PubMED

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/gquery/gquery.fcgi

>

> Stroke journal

> http://stroke.ahajournals.org/

> --

> D