Re: B12

[Guest guest]

I had asked doc for B12 testing...she said that a deficiency would have shown

up in the regular CBC.

Is that true?

cindi

[Guest guest]

It did in my case. I had a CBC last month and came back with B12

deficiency. I'm taking injections to help it.

>From: nc2406@...

>Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>Subject: Re: B12

>Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:27:50 EST

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>

>I had asked doc for B12 testing...she said that a deficiency would have

>shown

>up in the regular CBC.

>Is that true?

>cindi

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mine wasn't found out until the B12 was actually checked. My doctor did the

CBC on a regular basis. I don't know

Why the B12 deficiency didn't show up on it.

in Va.

I had asked doc for B12 testing...she said that a deficiency would have

shown

up in the regular CBC.

Is that true?

cindi

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>Mine wasn't f

>

>I had asked doc for B12 testing...she said that a deficiency would have

>shown

>up in the regular CBC.

>Is that true?

>

Unless it was masked by having an iron deficiency or anaemia of chronic

disorder as well - however it would still probably have shown up in the

RDW at a minimum and with 2 types of anaemia the haemoglobin would

probably be low anyway but Drs rarely look at the red cell indicies and

even if they do they probably only look at heamatocrit/PCV amd mayby MCV

--

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com/

http://www.artwanted.com/alisonashwell

[Guest guest]

It doesn't show up in the CBCs until it is severe enough to affect the red

blood counts. By that time, it is VERY critical business. It can exist on

an abnormal basis yrs before it shows up in the hemoglobin, affecting the

size and shape and #s of red blood cells. That's when you start going after

the cause of this anemia. The size of the red blood cells in both B12 and

Folic Acid anemia are larger and more irregular in size and shape than

normal. This is called a Macrocytic Anemia, macro- meaning large.

Microcytic anemia is usually iron anemia, micro- meaning small. I think

that the Homocysteine more clearly tells the story on Folic Acid shortage,

or maybe even on B12, I don't know. I'm thinking that Methylmalonic Acid is

measured by urine, if I'm correct, and it would show more on the B12. When

I was found to have Macrocytic Anemia, even before I tested for either one

of these nutrients, I began to take large doses of both B12, sublingually,

and the Folic Acid to try to correct this deficiency as quickly as possible.

In chronic disease that is severe enough, the bone marrow can't produce the

blood cells fast enough. In thyroid disease, everything is slowed down

severely, to the point where even this isn't happening fast enough. Yours

just hadn't quite progressed to this stage, but would have, had it gone on

long enough. A person can be chronically deficient in folic acid for 20

something yrs before it shows up in the RBCs. No telling how long I'd been

chronically hypo before this discovery.

RE: B12

>

> Mine wasn't found out until the B12 was actually checked. My doctor did

the

> CBC on a regular basis. I don't know

>

> Why the B12 deficiency didn't show up on it.

>

> in Va.

>

> I had asked doc for B12 testing...she said that a deficiency would have

> shown

> up in the regular CBC.

> Is that true?

> cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/3/2005 3:52:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, marin@...

writes:

> It can exist on

> an abnormal basis yrs before it shows up in the hemoglobin, affecting the

> size and shape and #s of red blood cells. That's when you start going after

> the cause of this anemia. The size of the red blood cells in both B12 and

> Folic Acid anemia are larger and more irregular in size and shape than

> normal. This is called a Macrocytic Anemia, macro- meaning large.

which blood work would this show up on? I have had high MCV and MCH...and my

Hemoglobin and Hematocrit is almost high out of range.

Cindi

[Guest guest]

nc2406@... wrote:

>

> which blood work would this show up on? I have had high MCV and MCH...and my

> Hemoglobin and Hematocrit is almost high out of range.

its impossible to dx it without the full results including RDW -however

a high MCV and low mchc/mch would be suggestive of a macrocytic

anaemia- B12/Folate

You would need repeat full blood counts if you have a high heamoglobin

and haematocrit [pcv] to avoid the false effects of dehydration - a

subsequent test would be done while fully hydrated.

also details of whether or not you smoke, all the drugs and supplements

or herbs you are on would be needed

However you have said almost out of range rather than over range so what

are the exact details and has this differered from pervious cbc/full

blood counts?

[Guest guest]

Alison-

This is good info you have given. My doctor did a full CBC on me back on

8-30-04. She didn't do the Ferritin or B12. Here is what I had then.

Hemoglobin 11.6L 11.7-15.5

Hematocrit 35.3 35.0-45.0 (looks low to me)

MCV 75.8L 80.0-100.0

MCH 25.0L 27.0-33.0

MCHC 32.9 32.0-36.0 (looks on the low side)

RDW 17.5H 11.0-15.0

White Cell 5.8 3.8-10.8

Red Cell 4.66 3.80-5.10

I go in for an appointment in two weeks. I was going to ask for the

another full CBC, Ferritin, and B-12. To add to my Thyroid tests. I have

a trainable doctor. She isn't perfect but she will work with me. Is there

anything else that you can see that I need to request. Any websites with

good info that I can print and give to her?

I was taking 27mg of Iron after that blood work was run, I have been

faithful with it. I just upped my Iron to 65mg (325 mg of Ferrous Sulfate)

about three days ago. I do not take any B vitamins (the smell makes me

sick), I probably need to take them and folic acid. Should I wait to add

them until have I get her to run more tests next week?

Thanks,

Kate G

At 09:30 AM 1/3/2005, you wrote:

>nc2406@... wrote:

> >

> > which blood work would this show up on? I have had high MCV and

> MCH...and my

> > Hemoglobin and Hematocrit is almost high out of range.

>

>its impossible to dx it without the full results including RDW -however

>a high MCV and low mchc/mch would be suggestive of a macrocytic

>anaemia- B12/Folate

>

>You would need repeat full blood counts if you have a high heamoglobin

>and haematocrit [pcv] to avoid the false effects of dehydration - a

>subsequent test would be done while fully hydrated.

>also details of whether or not you smoke, all the drugs and supplements

>or herbs you are on would be needed

>

>However you have said almost out of range rather than over range so what

>are the exact details and has this differered from pervious cbc/full

>blood counts?

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kate Guynn wrote:

> Alison-

> I was taking 27mg of Iron after that blood work was run, I have been

> faithful with it. I just upped my Iron to 65mg (325 mg of Ferrous Sulfate)

> about three days ago. I do not take any B vitamins (the smell makes me

> sick), I probably need to take them and folic acid. Should I wait to add

> them until have I get her to run more tests next week?

How long had you been on the iron?

The blood results are strongly suggestive of iron deficiency that is

responding to iron - or alternatively an anaemia of chronic disorders

with slight iron deficiency that is responding to iron

The high RDW and low MCV suggests that you havwe a wide range of sizes

of blood cells -meaning that you have small and big cells - the fact

that you have been on iron suggests rthat the big cells are due to

treated iron deficiency rather than B12 or folate deficiency as your MCV

is still low and your haemoglobin is low as well.

what happens when people are being treated with iron is that immature

cells called reticulocytes are found in the blood and they are bigger

than normal - this is a good thing as it means your body is able to use

the iron you are taking- and in severe anaemia the number of

reticulocytes is counted to check on the effect of iron treatment.

There are other reasons for increase numbers of reticulocytes in the

blood and withoiut knowing your full history or seeing your blood films

i can't be certain but this is the most likely explanation given the

results you have here

With these results B12 and folate anaemia are less likely -however i'd

get B12, folate and red cell folate done and then you know where you are

with the vitamins. Definitely get the ferritin done

[Guest guest]

At 10:45 AM 1/3/2005, you wrote:

>Kate Guynn wrote:

> > Alison-

> > I was taking 27mg of Iron after that blood work was run, I have been

> > faithful with it. I just upped my Iron to 65mg (325 mg of Ferrous

> Sulfate)

> > about three days ago. I do not take any B vitamins (the smell makes me

> > sick), I probably need to take them and folic acid. Should I wait to add

> > them until have I get her to run more tests next week?

>

>How long had you been on the iron?

>

>

>The blood results are strongly suggestive of iron deficiency that is

>responding to iron - or alternatively an anaemia of chronic disorders

>with slight iron deficiency that is responding to iron

>

>The high RDW and low MCV suggests that you havwe a wide range of sizes

>of blood cells -meaning that you have small and big cells - the fact

>that you have been on iron suggests rthat the big cells are due to

>treated iron deficiency rather than B12 or folate deficiency as your MCV

>is still low and your haemoglobin is low as well.

>

>what happens when people are being treated with iron is that immature

>cells called reticulocytes are found in the blood and they are bigger

>than normal - this is a good thing as it means your body is able to use

>the iron you are taking- and in severe anaemia the number of

>reticulocytes is counted to check on the effect of iron treatment.

>There are other reasons for increase numbers of reticulocytes in the

>blood and withoiut knowing your full history or seeing your blood films

>i can't be certain but this is the most likely explanation given the

>results you have here

>

>

>With these results B12 and folate anaemia are less likely -however i'd

>get B12, folate and red cell folate done and then you know where you are

>with the vitamins. Definitely get the ferritin done

That was blood work with out any iron. I have now been on the iron 4

months. Thanks for your information. I just want to make sure that I'm

not missing something that will help me to feel better.

Kate G

[Guest guest]

Kate Guynn wrote:

> That was blood work with out any iron.

ah ok- i misread your mail.were there any blood film comments? eg marked

anisocytosis [cells of different sizes] or polychromasia [red cells with

more than one colour] ? Was there a graph of the RDW? [some labs give a

graph of this in the results]

When you get your results fopr the next tests remember to post them

[Guest guest]

No comments or graphs, just the numbers. I will post the next results.

Thanks,

Kate

At 04:20 PM 1/3/2005, you wrote:

>Kate Guynn wrote:

> > That was blood work with out any iron.

>ah ok- i misread your mail.were there any blood film comments? eg marked

>anisocytosis [cells of different sizes] or polychromasia [red cells with

>more than one colour] ? Was there a graph of the RDW? [some labs give a

>graph of this in the results]

>

>When you get your results fopr the next tests remember to post them

[Guest guest]

B12 and/or Folic Acid anemia (not just beginning stages of shortage; the

anemia would be the most drastic stage) show up in the red blood cell lab,

which is part of the CBCs (complete blood counts). The actual count of all

the red blood cells will be low. The MCV, MCH, MCHC, are all parts of the

red blood cells (differentials). In these two anemias, the MCV will be high

definitely, and the hemoglobin will be low and of poor quality. The MCV

(Mean Corpuscular Volume) being high would mean that the red blood cells, or

some of them, will be much larger than normal. I believe that the other two

will be high also, can't remember at this time. By the time these two, or

one, or both of these nutrients have reached this stage to cause the red

blood corpuscles to be this way, this is a very grave stage of the vitamin

shortage. Did your doctor not say anything negative about this blood test,

or did he even notice it? I did the B12 Serum test myself, then the Folic

Acid and Red Blood Cell Folate myself through HealthCheck, after the anemia

showed up on my RBCs with HealthCheck. In my case, it was the Folic Acid

that was short, but I did only run the serum B12, not the methylmalonic acid

test, which is more of a deciding factor for the B12 shortage. The

Homocysteine can also give a very large clue for the folic acid shortage. I

have not had that one either. The minute I saw those irregular blood

counts, I reasearched it, Alison gave me a lot of help on this one, BTW. I

then started right in with large doses, sublingually, of B12, then 1000

units of the Folic Acid with it. It is good to take these two together, but

never take xtra folic acid without B12, if you're not sure which one you are

short on. They both have the same symptoms and show up the same way on the

blood work. Correcting a folic acid, without correcting B12 (if there

really is a B12 problem), will cover up the B12 deficiency, i.e., the blood

counts will begin to look good, but neurological damage will continue. That

comes out of all the medical texts for this.

Re: B12

>

> In a message dated 1/3/2005 3:52:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,

marin@...

> writes:

>

> > It can exist on

> > an abnormal basis yrs before it shows up in the hemoglobin, affecting

the

> > size and shape and #s of red blood cells. That's when you start going

after

> > the cause of this anemia. The size of the red blood cells in both B12

and

> > Folic Acid anemia are larger and more irregular in size and shape than

> > normal. This is called a Macrocytic Anemia, macro- meaning large.

>

> which blood work would this show up on? I have had high MCV and MCH...and

my

> Hemoglobin and Hematocrit is almost high out of range.

> Cindi

[Guest guest]

wrote: The actual count of all

> the red blood cells will be low. The MCV, MCH, MCHC, are all parts of the

> red blood cells (differentials).

red cell indices - differentials are for white cell counts

In these two anemias, the MCV will be high

> definitely, and the hemoglobin will be low and of poor quality. The MCV

> (Mean Corpuscular Volume) being high would mean that the red blood cells, or

> some of them, will be much larger than normal. I believe that the other two

> will be high also, can't remember at this time.

MCH and MCHC will be low or low normal depending on how anaemic the

person is

> short on. They both have the same symptoms and show up the same way on the

> blood work. Correcting a folic acid, without correcting B12 (if there

> really is a B12 problem), will cover up the B12 deficiency, i.e., the blood

> counts will begin to look good, but neurological damage will continue. That

> comes out of all the medical texts for this.

Some places give both together anyway when there is a macrocytic

anaemia and then do additional tests [shchillings tests, intrinsic

factor antibodies] when measured B12 is low

[Guest guest]

Thanks for correcting me on this Alison. It's been awhile since I looked at

these tests of mine, on the anemia. I know that it scared the bejesus out

of me, when I saw these results back last yr. I got busy on that one fast!

Re: B12

>

> wrote: The actual count of all

> > the red blood cells will be low. The MCV, MCH, MCHC, are all parts of

the

> > red blood cells (differentials).

>

> red cell indices - differentials are for white cell counts

> In these two anemias, the MCV will be high

> > definitely, and the hemoglobin will be low and of poor quality. The MCV

> > (Mean Corpuscular Volume) being high would mean that the red blood

cells, or

> > some of them, will be much larger than normal. I believe that the other

two

> > will be high also, can't remember at this time.

>

> MCH and MCHC will be low or low normal depending on how anaemic the

> person is

> > short on. They both have the same symptoms and show up the same way on

the

> > blood work. Correcting a folic acid, without correcting B12 (if there

> > really is a B12 problem), will cover up the B12 deficiency, i.e., the

blood

> > counts will begin to look good, but neurological damage will continue.

That

> > comes out of all the medical texts for this.

>

> Some places give both together anyway when there is a macrocytic

> anaemia and then do additional tests [shchillings tests, intrinsic

> factor antibodies] when measured B12 is low