RE: Re: Anyone care to deconstruct this?

[Guest guest]

netty:

This ego deflation bullshit is to me, probably one of the scariest aspects of

aa. Once you have " surrendered, " and believe you are helpless, and your ego

is deflated, you're primed for being brainwashed. It all starts with Step 1.

When will the larger society ever see aa for what it is - an offshoot of the

Oxford Group Movement, therefore a religious group, a strange way to treat

addiction. aa is the OGM. Bill just rewrote some of their principles. aa

didn't even have a name until they published that big book.

I get so mad at aa. I don't at all embrace the years I spent there, or any

of the people. Every time I tried to progress in my life, I was told to let

go and let god. I think if one wants to accomplish certain goals, then one

has to actively pursue those with whatever means available. aa made me into

an underachiever. Heaven help me if I was smart or educated or

intellectually curious. Grumble growl. Better think about something else.

Jan

In a message dated 8/28/01 7:09:10 AM Central Daylight Time,

caenemy@... writes:

<< Hi Jan,

This reminded me of -

Rebellion dogs our every step.

After awhile you stop kicking -

Just lay down and die.

Humility + surrender = strength (crock of shit)

Strength for who? assholes

Will the real men please stand up.

If your dead to everything, nothing really bothers you.

It's quite a mind-trip.

Would love to see 'them' practice what they preach.

Now there's a mind-trip I might like - careful, sick thinking.

netty

>>

[Guest guest]

Pete:

In aftercare they told me my addiction was still active because I take

clonazepam. It's a benzodiazapine. I blew this off of course. I am

prescribed 4 mgs. at night, and that is what I take. I think " addiction "

needs to be redefined.

Also, while in aa, this woman named Meredith was anti all drugs. I watched

her sit through an extremely bad clinical depression because she wouldn't get

a doctor's help. It's people like her that contribute to other people's

suicides because they don't get appropriate treatment beyond whatever

addiction they may have.

Jan

Jan

In a message dated 8/30/01 1:33:03 PM Central Daylight Time,

watts_pete@... writes:

<< Antidepressants are NOT tranquilizers, they are a completely different

kind of drug. Even those drugs that have been called tranquilizers

come in may different kinds -- the kind most commonly referred to as

such are benzodiazepines such as Valium. These are routinely used in

alcohol detoxification, but to most 12-step farms are totally anathema

as general treatment - even tho in fact they can be safe and useful.

p.

>>

[Guest guest]

I had told my sponsor about my taking an

antidepressant and she gave a long lecture about how I

was feeding my alcoholism by taking ANY drug, even

aspirin for menstrual pain. That along with other

similar comments is why I don't go anymore. Toward

the end of my going to meetings AA got to the point of

trying to make me feel guilty and wrong about

everything positive I tried to accomplish (i.e. move

back to my hometown, change jobs, buy a new car) the

typical answer was that I was still in a 'dry drunk'

and needed to look at my true intentions behind making

said decisions. This was well over a year ago and try

to look at that part of my life as a positive change-I

got out while I was still sane! cl

--- doglvr000@... wrote:

> Pete:

> In aftercare they told me my addiction was still

> active because I take

> clonazepam. It's a benzodiazapine. I blew this off

> of course. I am

> prescribed 4 mgs. at night, and that is what I take.

> I think " addiction "

> needs to be redefined.

>

> Also, while in aa, this woman named Meredith was

> anti all drugs. I watched

> her sit through an extremely bad clinical depression

> because she wouldn't get

> a doctor's help. It's people like her that

> contribute to other people's

> suicides because they don't get appropriate

> treatment beyond whatever

> addiction they may have.

>

> Jan

>

> Jan

>

>

> In a message dated 8/30/01 1:33:03 PM Central

> Daylight Time,

> watts_pete@... writes:

>

> << Antidepressants are NOT tranquilizers, they are a

> completely different

> kind of drug. Even those drugs that have been

> called tranquilizers

> come in may different kinds -- the kind most

> commonly referred to as

> such are benzodiazepines such as Valium. These are

> routinely used in

> alcohol detoxification, but to most 12-step farms

> are totally anathema

> as general treatment - even tho in fact they can be

> safe and useful.

>

> p.

> >>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Angelchains:

I'm grateful for a natural streak of rebellion. I never totally bought the

aa party line. Yes, in some ways I did, but in many others I didn't. I

learned to keep it to myself.

When the aftercare people said my addiction was still active, I blew it off.

I didn't feel like I was addicted.

Jan

In a message dated 8/30/01 10:03:43 PM Central Daylight Time,

angelchains2001@... writes:

<<

There were alot of things that were said to me that

just rubbed me the wrong way. yes aspirin, there

were mixed views on this in the group I went to but

the issue did come up in meetings and my sponsor

agreed with the 'old timers' on that one. It is a

drug as far as they are concerned. It wasn't a matter

of contributing to an addiction, it was, as they

intrepet the Big Book, a drug and therefore should not

be taken. a >>

[Guest guest]

You've got to be kidding... ASPIRIN???? How can that even be considered as

contributing to addiction?

Right or wrong, I can at least appreciate the intent if it was something

potentially mind altering... but aspirin? that's just ridiculous. I'm glad

to hear you got out of there.

-----Original Message-----

From: angel chains

even

aspirin

[Guest guest]

There were alot of things that were said to me that

just rubbed me the wrong way. yes aspirin, there

were mixed views on this in the group I went to but

the issue did come up in meetings and my sponsor

agreed with the 'old timers' on that one. It is a

drug as far as they are concerned. It wasn't a matter

of contributing to an addiction, it was, as they

intrepet the Big Book, a drug and therefore should not

be taken. a

--- Mike phxphun1@...> wrote:

> You've got to be kidding... ASPIRIN???? How can that

> even be considered as

> contributing to addiction?

>

> Right or wrong, I can at least appreciate the intent

> if it was something

> potentially mind altering... but aspirin? that's

> just ridiculous. I'm glad

> to hear you got out of there.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: angel chains

>

>

> even

> aspirin

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Aspirin? Oh, yes. I heard the same shit in central PA. There were some people

who would

not even take aspirin.

The most hysterically funny incident, which I've related some time ago, involved

a guy

counseling and advising me and generally giving me a hard time on the subject of

antidepressants. This was a guy who would not take even an aspirin for pain.

But as he

scolded and lectured me about " drugs " and antidepressants, he was chain smoking

and

slurping down coffee.

I listened to his no-drugs-at-all lecture, and at the end I pointed to his

coffee and

cigarette. " What about those drugs? "

He was *furious* at that question! " THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING!!!! "

Haw haw haw...

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

Actually one of the things that disturbs me the most

has nothing to do with the over the counter drug issue

that comes up in meetings; it is the lack of support

when a person is attempting to 'deal' with personal

issues outside of alcoholism. For example, my husband

of 11 years was the turning point for me when I

stopped drinking, he told me on July 4, 1999 to get

the fu** out of his house (at this time I was 28 years

old). That relationship was everything to me and

honestly I never thought this man would leave me, even

if I was snot slinging drunk all of the time. Well,

he did. For the first 11 months I focused entirely on

my sobriety (aa meeting every night, Big Book all the

time, etc.) I figured that if I sobered up for

myself, got that 'under wraps' that everything else

would fall into place. I especially thought that the

amends to him would at least a starting point for us

to begin attempting to work things out. About 10.5

half months into the program the anger and regrets

toward that relationship were eating my lunch on a

daily basis. I knew I was slowly falling into a deep

depression, could not stay focused on daily tasks, my

mind was just racing with thoughts. I prayed, I went

to meetings, talked to my sponsor about alcoholism,

blah blah blah. WELL, one day I went to a meeting and

told my sponsor before the meeting that I really felt

I needed to start focusing on my heart, my soul, my

spirit-that these overwhelming feelings and thoughts

over this relationship really needed to be dealt with.

Her response was-'you need to let go and let god.

She ended her long aa speech with, and I quote, " I

don't want to here his name anymore, I don't want you

to talk about him in meetings-only your alcoholism and

how that effected your life-and I want you to get down

on your knees and pray. " I knew than that if I

followed that advice, if I continued to focus on that

ONE part of my life (alcoholism) that I would end up

suicidal or back to 2 bottles a day. I listened to my

heart and began to self help. Many nights of reading

about divorce, acceptance, moving forward......I now

look at the whole picture and better understand that

relationship, how my alcohol consumption increased as

I gave more and more up of myself to him, etc. I

could go on and on with this issue. The point is I

feel alot of people are denied dealing with the entire

picture. Making amends to those you have hurt is only

the beginning, there is much more to it. a

--- ghhws1@...> wrote:

> Aspirin? Oh, yes. I heard the same shit in central

> PA. There were some people who would

> not even take aspirin.

>

> The most hysterically funny incident, which I've

> related some time ago, involved a guy

> counseling and advising me and generally giving me a

> hard time on the subject of

> antidepressants. This was a guy who would not take

> even an aspirin for pain. But as he

> scolded and lectured me about " drugs " and

> antidepressants, he was chain smoking and

> slurping down coffee.

>

> I listened to his no-drugs-at-all lecture, and at

> the end I pointed to his coffee and

> cigarette. " What about those drugs? "

>

> He was *furious* at that question! " THAT'S

> NOT THE SAME THING!!!! "

>

> Haw haw haw...

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

This is the kind of bullshit that really gets under my eyelid at aa. I was

told I was wrong for resenting my mother - to pray for her. She beat the

shit out of me daily when I was little. The last time she hit me I was 17,

and she stopped because I hit back that time. She has stolen my income tax

checks two years in a row. She had credit in my name when I was too little

to have credit, and she did the same thing to my daughter, which I just found

out about. If she weren't dead, I'd kill her.

During one meeting, Miss-Perky-I-doubt-you're-an-alcoholic proclaimed that

the past had nothing to do with today (she has a high school education, what

does she know about psychology, psychiatry, therapy?). I sure hope it does,

because that's the basis of my therapy, and it's costing me a lot.

If I heard someone tell me to let go and let god one more time, I'd throw up

on them.

Jan

In a message dated 8/31/01 8:25:16 AM Central Daylight Time,

angelchains2001@... writes:

<< Actually one of the things that disturbs me the most

has nothing to do with the over the counter drug issue

that comes up in meetings; it is the lack of support

when a person is attempting to 'deal' with personal

issues outside of alcoholism. For example, my husband

of 11 years was the turning point for me when I

stopped drinking, he told me on July 4, 1999 to get

the fu** out of his house (at this time I was 28 years

old). That relationship was everything to me and

honestly I never thought this man would leave me, even

if I was snot slinging drunk all of the time. Well,

he did. For the first 11 months I focused entirely on

my sobriety (aa meeting every night, Big Book all the

time, etc.) I figured that if I sobered up for

myself, got that 'under wraps' that everything else

would fall into place. I especially thought that the

amends to him would at least a starting point for us

to begin attempting to work things out. About 10.5

half months into the program the anger and regrets

toward that relationship were eating my lunch on a

daily basis. I knew I was slowly falling into a deep

depression, could not stay focused on daily tasks, my

mind was just racing with thoughts. I prayed, I went

to meetings, talked to my sponsor about alcoholism,

blah blah blah. WELL, one day I went to a meeting and

told my sponsor before the meeting that I really felt

I needed to start focusing on my heart, my soul, my

spirit-that these overwhelming feelings and thoughts

over this relationship really needed to be dealt with.

Her response was-'you need to let go and let god.

She ended her long aa speech with, and I quote, " I

don't want to here his name anymore, I don't want you

to talk about him in meetings-only your alcoholism and

how that effected your life-and I want you to get down

on your knees and pray. " I knew than that if I

followed that advice, if I continued to focus on that

ONE part of my life (alcoholism) that I would end up

suicidal or back to 2 bottles a day. I listened to my

heart and began to self help. Many nights of reading

about divorce, acceptance, moving forward......I now

look at the whole picture and better understand that

relationship, how my alcohol consumption increased as

I gave more and more up of myself to him, etc. I

could go on and on with this issue. The point is I

feel alot of people are denied dealing with the entire

picture. Making amends to those you have hurt is only

the beginning, there is much more to it. >>

[Guest guest]

Nobody knows what is right or wrong for you except you.

I have gotten to the point where I don't always share

major things in my life because I know what I will hear

and I don't like being told what to do. I have always

worked out my own crap. I made the decision to quit

drinking and go to AA. No one told me to.

Anyway, don't let em get you down...do what feels right

for you...

KJ

> This is the kind of bullshit that really gets under my eyelid at aa. I was

> told I was wrong for resenting my mother - to pray for her. She beat the

> shit out of me daily when I was little. The last time she hit me I was 17,

> and she stopped because I hit back that time. She has stolen my income tax

> checks two years in a row. She had credit in my name when I was too little

> to have credit, and she did the same thing to my daughter, which I just found

> out about. If she weren't dead, I'd kill her.

>

> During one meeting, Miss-Perky-I-doubt-you're-an-alcoholic proclaimed that

> the past had nothing to do with today (she has a high school education, what

> does she know about psychology, psychiatry, therapy?). I sure hope it does,

> because that's the basis of my therapy, and it's costing me a lot.

>

> If I heard someone tell me to let go and let god one more time, I'd throw up

> on them.

>

> Jan

>

> In a message dated 8/31/01 8:25:16 AM Central Daylight Time,

> angelchains2001@... writes:

>

> << Actually one of the things that disturbs me the most

> has nothing to do with the over the counter drug issue

> that comes up in meetings; it is the lack of support

> when a person is attempting to 'deal' with personal

> issues outside of alcoholism. For example, my husband

> of 11 years was the turning point for me when I

> stopped drinking, he told me on July 4, 1999 to get

> the fu** out of his house (at this time I was 28 years

> old). That relationship was everything to me and

> honestly I never thought this man would leave me, even

> if I was snot slinging drunk all of the time. Well,

> he did. For the first 11 months I focused entirely on

> my sobriety (aa meeting every night, Big Book all the

> time, etc.) I figured that if I sobered up for

> myself, got that 'under wraps' that everything else

> would fall into place. I especially thought that the

> amends to him would at least a starting point for us

> to begin attempting to work things out. About 10.5

> half months into the program the anger and regrets

> toward that relationship were eating my lunch on a

> daily basis. I knew I was slowly falling into a deep

> depression, could not stay focused on daily tasks, my

> mind was just racing with thoughts. I prayed, I went

> to meetings, talked to my sponsor about alcoholism,

> blah blah blah. WELL, one day I went to a meeting and

> told my sponsor before the meeting that I really felt

> I needed to start focusing on my heart, my soul, my

> spirit-that these overwhelming feelings and thoughts

> over this relationship really needed to be dealt with.

> Her response was-'you need to let go and let god.

> She ended her long aa speech with, and I quote, " I

> don't want to here his name anymore, I don't want you

> to talk about him in meetings-only your alcoholism and

> how that effected your life-and I want you to get down

> on your knees and pray. " I knew than that if I

> followed that advice, if I continued to focus on that

> ONE part of my life (alcoholism) that I would end up

> suicidal or back to 2 bottles a day. I listened to my

> heart and began to self help. Many nights of reading

> about divorce, acceptance, moving forward......I now

> look at the whole picture and better understand that

> relationship, how my alcohol consumption increased as

> I gave more and more up of myself to him, etc. I

> could go on and on with this issue. The point is I

> feel alot of people are denied dealing with the entire

> picture. Making amends to those you have hurt is only

> the beginning, there is much more to it. >>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Did you tell this moron to fuck off?

Jan

In a message dated 8/31/01 8:25:16 AM Central Daylight Time,

angelchains2001@... writes:

<< Actually one of the things that disturbs me the most

has nothing to do with the over the counter drug issue

that comes up in meetings; it is the lack of support

when a person is attempting to 'deal' with personal

issues outside of alcoholism. For example, my husband

of 11 years was the turning point for me when I

stopped drinking, he told me on July 4, 1999 to get

the fu** out of his house (at this time I was 28 years

old). That relationship was everything to me and

honestly I never thought this man would leave me, even

if I was snot slinging drunk all of the time. Well,

he did. For the first 11 months I focused entirely on

my sobriety (aa meeting every night, Big Book all the

time, etc.) I figured that if I sobered up for

myself, got that 'under wraps' that everything else

would fall into place. I especially thought that the

amends to him would at least a starting point for us

to begin attempting to work things out. About 10.5

half months into the program the anger and regrets

toward that relationship were eating my lunch on a

daily basis. I knew I was slowly falling into a deep

depression, could not stay focused on daily tasks, my

mind was just racing with thoughts. I prayed, I went

to meetings, talked to my sponsor about alcoholism,

blah blah blah. WELL, one day I went to a meeting and

told my sponsor before the meeting that I really felt

I needed to start focusing on my heart, my soul, my

spirit-that these overwhelming feelings and thoughts

over this relationship really needed to be dealt with.

Her response was-'you need to let go and let god.

She ended her long aa speech with, and I quote, " I

don't want to here his name anymore, I don't want you

to talk about him in meetings-only your alcoholism and

how that effected your life-and I want you to get down

on your knees and pray. " I knew than that if I

followed that advice, if I continued to focus on that

ONE part of my life (alcoholism) that I would end up

suicidal or back to 2 bottles a day. I listened to my

heart and began to self help. Many nights of reading

about divorce, acceptance, moving forward......I now

look at the whole picture and better understand that

relationship, how my alcohol consumption increased as

I gave more and more up of myself to him, etc. I

could go on and on with this issue. The point is I

feel alot of people are denied dealing with the entire

picture. Making amends to those you have hurt is only

the beginning, there is much more to it. a >>

[Guest guest]

You know why these morons can't deal with anything that doesn't fit into

their steps? They have been trained not to think or feel. Anything that goes

outside of what fits neatly into the steps is not to be spoken about, dwelled

upon etc. This is one of dozens upon dozens of reasons why aa sucks.

Jan

In a message dated 9/4/01 5:28:38 AM Central Daylight Time, doglvr000@...

writes:

<< < Actually one of the things that disturbs me the most

has nothing to do with the over the counter drug issue

that comes up in meetings; it is the lack of support

when a person is attempting to 'deal' with personal

issues outside of alcoholism. For example, my husband

of 11 years was the turning point for me when I

stopped drinking, he told me on July 4, 1999 to get

the fu** out of his house (at this time I was 28 years

old). That relationship was everything to me and

honestly I never thought this man would leave me, even

if I was snot slinging drunk all of the time. Well,

he did. For the first 11 months I focused entirely on

my sobriety (aa meeting every night, Big Book all the

time, etc.) I figured that if I sobered up for

myself, got that 'under wraps' that everything else

would fall into place. I especially thought that the

amends to him would at least a starting point for us

to begin attempting to work things out. About 10.5

half months into the program the anger and regrets

toward that relationship were eating my lunch on a

daily basis. I knew I was slowly falling into a deep

depression, could not stay focused on daily tasks, my

mind was just racing with thoughts. I prayed, I went

to meetings, talked to my sponsor about alcoholism,

blah blah blah. WELL, one day I went to a meeting and

told my sponsor before the meeting that I really felt

I needed to start focusing on my heart, my soul, my

spirit-that these overwhelming feelings and thoughts

over this relationship really needed to be dealt with.

Her response was-'you need to let go and let god.

She ended her long aa speech with, and I quote, " I

don't want to here his name anymore, I don't want you

to talk about him in meetings-only your alcoholism and

how that effected your life-and I want you to get down

on your knees and pray. " I knew than that if I

followed that advice, if I continued to focus on that

ONE part of my life (alcoholism) that I would end up

suicidal or back to 2 bottles a day. I listened to my

heart and began to self help. Many nights of reading

about divorce, acceptance, moving forward......I now

look at the whole picture and better understand that

relationship, how my alcohol consumption increased as

I gave more and more up of myself to him, etc. I

could go on and on with this issue. The point is I

feel alot of people are denied dealing with the entire

picture. Making amends to those you have hurt is only

the beginning, there is much more to it. a >>

>>