What kind of AA groups?

[Guest guest]

What AA group would allow or not allow anything? This is crazy!! I've been to AA

meetings all over the US and have never heard of elders etc. This is not AA..no

one in AA has ever told me to find God or religion..Ever!!! They do suggest you

find a power greater than yourself..be it the group,God as YOU understand

it,nature or whatever..I have been to hundreds of meetings and never heard talk

about the bible or Christ or any religion..It is a spritual program not a

religion..All are welcome..The only requirment for membership is the desire to

stop drinking...It has kept me sober for alot of 24 hours and I'll keep coming

back!!!..The hatred and the judgement in this room sickens me..AA keeps millions

sober and saved my life!!!

[Guest guest]

> What AA group would allow or not allow anything? This is crazy!!

I've been to AA meetings all over the US and have never heard of

elders etc. This is not AA..no one in AA has ever told me to find God

or religion..Ever!!! They do suggest you find a power greater than

yourself..be it the group,God as YOU understand it,nature or

whatever..I have been to hundreds of meetings and never heard talk

about the bible or Christ or any religion..It is a spritual program

not a religion..All are welcome..The only requirment for membership

is the desire to stop drinking...It has kept me sober for alot of 24

hours and I'll keep coming back!!!..The hatred and the judgement in

this room sickens me..AA keeps millions sober and saved my life!!!

Hi Dave,

My first reaction was 'Are you calling me a liar?'

Then it was - your an oink - one of them.

If that be the case, so what...if not,

Yes, i know they tell you it's spiritual - that was one of

the hardest things i had to come to terms with. Read the

aa history and not just aa, hazeldon, etc literature. And

i also know the only requirment is a desire to stop drinking.

What's that got to do with it???

About the 'god' stuff...it's in your big book.

netty

[Guest guest]

The god of my understanding is me, but in AA that can not be. I am not

saying that I am God, I just do not believe that a supreme being can

" restore me to sanity " . I also do not believe that I was insane. Wrong

choices wer made, that is all. When you say all is welcome, All are one.

" We are all alcoholic and no different from the next. " I am sorry, but I

view myself as an individual, not an alcoholic like the rest. My last name

is not alcoholic either. I to have some problem with the hatred of AA, but

we need a place to vent. Not veryone an love AA or agree with AA as you do.

Nothing in life is purely good. It is a dichotemy, a balance of both good

and bad, yet the world never hears about any problems AA might have.

Especially the newcomer or outsider who have seen the problems with their

own eyes. These people are then considered sick of course and in need of

help, help in which AA can only give. Yet AA is not the only group and

alternatives numbers are growing at an incredibly higher rate than your's.

" They are finding a softer, easier way. " I beg to differ. most

alternatives have the same effectiveness, scientifically proven (but when

was the last time AA took science into consideration, at least when science

does not adhere to your beliefs), yet thje members of the group learn how to

manage themselves. No one person can show you the way, you must find it

yourself.

When your views are questioned and looked at in an opposite view of you own,

how do you react. You defend yourself. What is denial?! People are not

lying and don't know it, they are lying to protect themselves from the

cuiltsit, our way or the die way, attitude. A person who comes in contact

with your sect is influenced to believe that if they do not believe you or

in your " program " . They will die. Of course you will have seen proof of

this yourself right. A member leaves and is never gheard from again. Has

it not dawned on you that the former member may be avoiding you and other

members at all costs. When do you learbn how to read the future any way?

Where does the proof lay? All the proof I have been shown for your

" disease " lies in loose links and faith driven beliefs. Nothing hard and

undisputable, nut that is the keystone to faith, faith being a keystone of

religion, and religion being a keystone of your group. Religion is nothing

but spirituallity with rules, and what would you call the 12 steps?

>From: dave8067@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: What kind of AA groups?

>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 05:03:59 -0000

>

>What AA group would allow or not allow anything? This is crazy!! I've been

>to AA meetings all over the US and have never heard of elders etc. This is

>not AA..no one in AA has ever told me to find God or religion..Ever!!! They

>do suggest you find a power greater than yourself..be it the group,God as

>YOU understand it,nature or whatever..I have been to hundreds of meetings

>and never heard talk about the bible or Christ or any religion..It is a

>spritual program not a religion..All are welcome..The only requirment for

>membership is the desire to stop drinking...It has kept me sober for alot

>of 24 hours and I'll keep coming back!!!..The hatred and the judgement in

>this room sickens me..AA keeps millions sober and saved my life!!!

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

Do you think all the people on this list make stuff up about XA just

to piss you off?

Most of us have been well and truly fucked over by XA. It's why we

are here. I don't post much, but it feels good to read the input of

others who have been through the XA mill.

I am glad you like XA. Sounds like you go to meetings that are very

different from the ones I went to.

Netty is right. You are one of " them " .

Go away now and leave us to it

Cheers

> What AA group would allow or not allow anything? This is crazy!!

I've been to AA meetings all over the US and have never heard of

elders etc. This is not AA..no one in AA has ever told me to find God

or religion..Ever!!! They do suggest you find a power greater than

yourself..be it the group,God as YOU understand it,nature or

whatever..I have been to hundreds of meetings and never heard talk

about the bible or Christ or any religion..It is a spritual program

not a religion..All are welcome..The only requirment for membership

is the desire to stop drinking...It has kept me sober for alot of 24

hours and I'll keep coming back!!!..The hatred and the judgement in

this room sickens me..AA keeps millions sober and saved my life!!!

[Guest guest]

Goodness gracious! What kind of groups? Dave has never heard of elders, and

writes,

" This is not AA..no one in AA has ever told me to find God or religion..Ever!!! "

I never heard the term " elders " , but there were plenty of " old timers " who would

lay down

the law.

And I got told plenty of times that " You gotta have God. " I remember a guy

scowling at us

after a meeting because we just remained silent during the Lord's Prayer. He

shook his

finger at us and told us, " I notice you weren't praying. You gotta pray if you

wanna stay

sober. "

There was a lot of peer pressure. One guy went around the room putting little

cards with

the Saint Francis prayer in front of everybody. He told me I needed to pray on

the

Catholic rosary and should do that every day.

Mind you, that was not an official action by the AA central office. That was

one guy.

The point is that that sort of thing can easily happen. People who like to be a

big frog

in a small pond will latch on to the more vulnerable people and tell them what

to do. In

my 12 years, mostly in central PA and then in NY State I saw that happen over

and over.

Others here have pointed out the bait-and-switch game. There's this talk about

" a

spiritual program " and " spiritual, not religious " ; but then comes this peer

pressure to

get the right kind of god. And the BB itself talks of " God " . Kind of works up

to it.

Netty talks about elders. I get the impression that she fell in with one of

these people

with a big control issue who set up his own special rigid group with himself

firmly in

charge. Correct me if I'm wrong, Netty. While AA itself does not have the kind

of

situation Netty has spoken of, it's so set up that pushy individuals can create

this kind

of rigid control situation and dominate vulnerable people.

From Dave, " What AA group would allow or not allow anything? "

I went to the Sobriety House for the meeting in the Sobriety Room. I had a

bottle of soda

pop with me. There were other people with their bottles of Pepsi. But my soda

pop was in

a brown bottle and everyone told me I'd have to take it away and not bring it

into the

room. " But it's only soda pop! We can have soda pop here. " " But not in a

brown bottle.

It looks like a beer bottle. You can't bring anything in that looks like beer. "

And I understand there are meeting where newcomers are not allowed to speak

until they've

been there a certain length of time. I've also heard there are places where

newcomers are

required to find a sponsor.

Dave says, " The hatred and the judgement in this room sickens me. "

There are some very angry people here. This is the space where they can vent

their anger.

As for me, I do not feel the rage other people feel. On the contrary, I have a

wealth of

lovely memories. (Dear ol' Jack and I used to go to the Wednesday night meeting

in

another little town about 50 minutes drive away. There was a stream near the

church, and

before the meeting Jack and I would feed the ducks. One evening it was really

hot in the

church, so we all carried our chairs outside and had the meeting. And then we

heard a

noise. Here came the ducks, waddling across the parking lot, looking for a

handout.) I

really loved AA. I used to think I'd be in AA for life. There was a time when

I thought

I'd never, ever want to leave. I loved the hugs and the coffee and the

satisfaction of

the herding/clumping instinct. And there were some really neat people. I loved

all the

little rituals - stop at the candy store on the way, then enjoy the really good

coffee at

the meeting (Fred made great coffee), and afterwards go out for a snack (Fred

told such

great jokes. I really miss Fred). I believed them when they told me I had a

disease, and

I believed my life was being saved. While I never, ever got god the way I was

supposed

to, I did fall for the disease concept.

I've said it before. It wasn't until I moved to NY that things began to fall

apart. I'd

been listening to, oh, the ill logic, the repetitive god talk, the slogans, the

ritualizing, the falsehoods, the *excessive* repetitive reading at the beginning

of the

meeting (when I first arrived the reading was brief; steps, traditions, and some

other

thing. By the time I left PA it was the steps, traditions, how it works, an

introduction,

the thought for the day from the 24 hour book, and I forget what all else, which

took up

at least 20 minutes out of the hour, giving less time for the actual meeting)

for nine

years, but I'd overlooked the faulty logic and seriously poor thinking because I

loved the

people so much. I loved to herd and clump with them and drink coffee with them

and go out

for food afterward with them and do all the nifty social things that a seriously

emotionally starved person desperately needs.

But once I'd moved, uh, I don't know these new people. I'm not yet part of

their space.

And things I'd just ignored in PA were suddenly a problem. That was the

beginning of the

end. I could see that there were big problems here. I had never ever had a

satisfactory

explanation of why this thing is " a disease " . They told me it was a disease

because it

has an onset, a progression, and an outcome. Um...but if that is so, then it's a

disease

to go to college. The onset is when I'm accepted and enroll and sign up for my

courses.

It's a progression when I study and take my exams and continue to learn more.

The

outcome, I hope, is that I will graduate. Shucks, Life is a disease. You're

born, you

live, you die. That explanation of the Disease of Alcoholism just wasn't

enough. The

program was falling apart for me.

And the middle steps were so hurtful for me. That " character defects " stuff was

seriously

destructive for me. I found it demoralizing and disempowering. Many other

people don't

mind those steps. Other sorts of people can go on about their character defects

and total

powerlessness without feeling uncomfortable and sick inside. And there are

plenty of

people who seem to be bragging about how very bad they were. Their character

defects are

like a boy scout merit badge, and the more horrible their sins, the more

glorious their

salvation. For them a really defective character is an accomplishment to strut

and boast

about. It's a real attention-getting device. But it didn't work that way for

me.

As I said, I don't feel the rage and hatred. I just outgrew AA, that's all.

I'm in a

different space now. It sounds as if you're still in the AA space. That's

fine, but why

are you on this list? Or more to the point, why are you complaining? There's a

coffee

house I love to go to where there is a sign saying that smokers are allowed in

the

non-smoking section as long as they are not smoking. And non-smokers are

allowed in the

smoking section as long as they are not complaining.

There are members of this list who strenuously object to steppers being allowed

here. As

for me, I don't mind at all if steppers hang out here. But why are you griping?

If I

were on a 12-step list I'd expect people to be supporting the steps, and I

wouldn't try to

criticize them or change their minds. It's their space, and they can say what

they want.

If you want to hang out here with us, that's fine as far as I am concerned, but

I think

you're way out of line to make a fuss when angry, wounded people need to vent

and cry.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Think about it. When was the last time you questioned the dogma of

AA at a meeting? If you never have, try it and see what happens.

Do you not say the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings? Last time I

checked, this originated with the Bible.

To " fit in " in AA, you must be submissive to THEIR beliefs. If you

don't believe this, then start questioning their beliefs. You will

see the hatred in AA come out very quickly.

My suggestion to you is this: If you are in any way a thinking

person, keep your eyes and ears open. Think about what is being

said. Is it all-or-nothing thinking??? Is it manipulative??? Is it

coercive??? You decide for yourself.

After a reasonable amount of time, if you STILL believe that AA is

wonderful, then you are probably where you should be.

I thought AA was wonderful for a few years and then I started

thinking for myself.

Don't you get tired of the lying, cheating, perverted drunks thinking

for you? Is this the group of people that you want to spend your

time with? I kept asking myself these questions. Sure, there are

some decent people in AA, but finding them is like finding a needle

in a haystack.

After looking around the rooms time after time, I came to the

realization that my life was worth more than this. Maybe yours isn't.

[Guest guest]

At 05:03 AM 9/29/01 -0000, dave8067@... wrote:

Hi, dave8967. It appears you are new here. I'm glad you showed up,

it's been quiet here lately, and we need a troll to stir things up a

little.

>What AA group would allow or not allow anything? This is crazy!! I've been

to AA meetings all over the US and have never heard of elders etc.

>This is not AA..

There's a lot of " not AA " in most AA meetings.

>no one in AA has ever told me to find God

Apparently no one read the big book or the 12&12 to you.

>or religion..Ever!!! They do suggest you find a power greater than yourself..

Like a doorknob? This is often suggested to newcomers, but the

literature makes it clear that sooner or later a doorknob won't be enough,

that one needs a " spiritual " higher power. In advertising, this is called

bait and switch.

>be it the group,God as YOU understand it,nature or whatever..

God as I understand it (why do you not write " God as you understand Him "

as it is written in the steps?) is my own self will. Would AA approve of

my higher power? Maybe AA isn't as tolerant as you imply.

>I have been to hundreds of meetings and never heard talk about the bible

or Christ or any religion..

Ever been to a big book study? Many parts of the big book explicitly

discuss religion.

>It is a spritual program not a religion..

Some members go to great lengths discussing religion in attempts to

say how AA is not religious.

>All are welcome..The only requirment for membership is the desire to stop

drinking...

The long version of tradition 3 (or if you prefer, The Third Tradition

- it's in the back of your big book unless you have an earlier printing

of the First Edition) states that any two or more alcoholics may call

themselves an AA group provided they have no outside affiliation. This

disqualifies all AA meetings I've heard of, as they assume all attendees

have or are willing to get a belief in this " spiritual higher power " .

The SOS/LSR groups have no such assumptions and don't assume a belief on

the part of its members, and don't attempt to change its members' beliefs

or lack of beliefs, so these groups adhere more closely to the third

tradition than AA itself.

>It has kept me sober for alot of 24 hours and I'll keep coming back!!!..

I've been around " a few 24 hours " , as I wrote in the April 1990 AA

Grapevine magazine. Fortunately, I stopped going back.

>The hatred and the judgement in this room sickens me..

This isn't a room, it's a mailing list. But yes, many of us hate AA,

and judge it harshly, no less harshly than the judgment in AA of anyone

who doesn't " see our way of life " .

>AA keeps millions sober and saved my life!!!

And for that you are eternally grateful, and will do and say anything

to promote AA.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

> What AA group would allow or not allow anything? This is crazy!!

You're right. AA cannot allow or not allow anything. They can and

do ,however, encourage and discourage things in a religious cult-like

way.

I've been to AA meetings all over the US and have never heard of

elders etc. This is not AA..no one in AA has ever told me to find God

or religion..Ever!!! They do suggest you find a power greater than

yourself..be it the group,God as YOU understand it,nature or

whatever..I have been to hundreds of meetings and never heard talk

about the bible or Christ or any religion..It is a spritual program

not a religion..

You're right again. AA does not represent any organized world

religion. But the concepts are " religious " , and center around a

personal god, higher power or whatever, that makes all your

decisions, removes cravings and character defects etc. through divine

intervention. Faith healing for what they claim is a medical disease.

" Spiritual " in it's definition, still deals with concepts of " ultimate

reality " which are not supported by any empirical evidence, and what

does that have to do with treating a medical disease?

All are welcome..The only requirment for membership is

the desire to stop drinking...

Yeah, but see how you are treated if you openly disagree with " the

program " , and dare to THINK for yourself. AA provides " conditional "

support.

It has kept me sober for alot of 24

hours and I'll keep coming back!!!..The hatred and the judgement in

this room sickens me..AA keeps millions sober and saved my life!!!

YOU kept you sober, you are just brainwashed into believing that you

cannot do it without some imaginary god doing it for you. Do you

really believe that a DOORKNOB or even nature, can keep you sober?

The empirical evidence shows that working a 12-step program is no

better than no treatment at all in preventing relapse, and sometimes

worse. The only thing benifical about AA is the group support, and

that's if you can get past all the " spiritual " dogma. And to make

this worse, many AA's preach this as being the only solution. I

prefer group support that is completely " Secular " , which is

discourages and critized by good AA nazis. AA may HELP keep millions

sober, but they ABUSE and MISLEAD many more suffering and vulnerable

people. I wrote a little rap for you AA guys. Check it out, it's in

the archives under " F*** AA " . And how about thinking for yourself for

a change?

Jurasin

[Guest guest]

> Netty talks about elders. I get the impression that she fell in

with one of these people

> with a big control issue who set up his own special rigid group

with himself firmly in

> charge. Correct me if I'm wrong, Netty. While AA itself does not

have the kind of

> situation Netty has spoken of, it's so set up that pushy

individuals can create this kind

> of rigid control situation and dominate vulnerable people.

>

Hi ,

Yes-an 'elder' or 'old-timer' who seeks out vulnerable

people. He can find em at the regular aa meetings.

I 've encountered such a creature.

(he has one main meeting he uses for this-i call it his

turf) there's a team of em that work together, the new-

comers need to shut-up and listen,

and they have to get a sponsor-

asap-to do the steps...suggested sponsors are always the

same(those on that team). You are not aware of this set-

up. If you are one that follows directions - you are invited

to go to the 'secret' meeting. This is a meeting for those

who are serious about getting well. (so your told)

This is called weeding. From here, some of us were invited

to a bible study - this is not a aa meeting, no big books,

or reading how it works---now it's the bible. From here,

we went to being a church out of his home...he gave the

sermons. Between the bible study and church thing-it came

out that he was a minister-he admitted to this, around the

same time hubby died, that f***er did his funeral. He is

not any such thing-have not found proof either way. Is still

running a 'church' out of his home. When looking for a

new prospect, it's back to the regular aa meeting. It's his

cycle-once he has a sheep or two, then its back to those

'secret' aa meetings at his home. This is why i call it

'a cult inside a cult'.

>

> And I understand there are meeting where newcomers are not allowed

to speak until they've

> been there a certain length of time. I've also heard there are

places where newcomers are

> required to find a sponsor.

>

Yes, this is true - applies to those who were serious

about getting well...if you didn't like that...they

were told that maybe they needed to go drink some more.

I had never ever had a satisfactory

> explanation of why this thing is " a disease " .

Ditto - when a teen-ager, they keep telling me i was

an alcoholic....i thought they were nuts, you must not

know what one is...thought i did, was pretty smart back

then. Now my dad was one and later - husband was one...

and i was not like them....so i called myself a situational

abuser. They didn't like that, but it fit for me. Also

stayed clean for years when i had the kids...so if i was a

alkie, why could i do this...real alkies didn't, closer to

the truth then i thought. Then one year i went out, and could

not clean it up....i thought shit, is this what it's all

about? When i went back to aa that last time, and read the

book-it explained about the 4 stages...so now i thought i

understood, all those years i was a 2, hadn't yet enter the

progressive stages 3&4, like the alkies i knew. I was

starting to believe this lie. When i doubted i was a alkie,

sponsor quickly pointed out the paragragh about - if an

alkie doubts he's alkie-then that's basically proof that he

is. Or it's the disease talking. If you don't believe, just

go back out and find out for yourself....what a bunch of

shit-talk. That doesn't even make any sense--

netty

[Guest guest]

>

> > You're right again. AA does not represent any

> > organized world

> > religion.

>

> Indeed. AA does not need to represent any other

> religion. AA is a religion unto itself.

> It is the 12-step religion, and it is also

> Buchmanism, as taught by Dr.

> Buchman.

>

> See:

> http://www.geocities.com/ageorange/orange-religiousroots.html

Great site, here is something I liked:

' " Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads

of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to

believe that our human intelligence was the last word... Rather vain

of us, wasn't it? "

The Big Book, page 49.

(Notice how Bill often used the word " we " the way a preacher

does. A preacher will say " we are sinners, may God have mercy on us "

when he really means " YOU are sinners, may God have mercy on YOUR

miserable worthless asses. " ) '