Re: Re: Hi! I am new here.

[Guest guest]

Back in '91 is when I became acquainted with AA?NA after going through a 28

day rehab facility at the urging of my wife and mother. They would take us to

the area AA?NA meetings several nights per week.

The guru mentality was planted in the minds of some of the people that were

in rehab very quickly. I noticed how spiritual and enlightened several of

them became and ready to give their advise to the newcomers in rehab. Some of

the newcomers would look to these people with envy because they had 3 weeks

clean inspite of the fact that they were still in a controlled environment.

These guru types were quick to pickup on the attitudes of the so called gurus

of the meetings that we attended in the areas. Several of them really liked

the NA meeting we went to because they had a hard-core attitude about

sobriety there.

After I was released, I started going to these meetings in my area, both AA

and NA. I quickly discovered that AA and NA members could not get along with

each other very well and very few would attend the other's meetings. The NA

group really attracted the guru wanna be types. The guru of that meeting had

the longest clean time of 13 months and was so damned cocky about it. He

would sit back with this overly confident attitude and give his war story of

his addiction to reefer and how sick he was sitting at the lake with a 357 in

his mouth ready to end it all. He would brag about the psyche wards he was in

and all the newcomers which was pretty much the whole room would try to out

do him with their stories. He was really on the nights that the treatment

centers would come to the meetings.

I left that meeting fairly soon and started attending the AA meetings in my

area. Spiritual progress was approached like the 100 yard dash in one

particular noon meeting I went to and it was hard not to get sucked into the

race if you wanted to feel like you was one of the chosen few. That approach

seemed to have the opposite effect for many that tried to keep up including

myself because deep down, I and probably those that tried to keep up, knew it

was a bunch of crap that had no real substance in their life. Trying to come

up with something that sounded oh so spiritual or something that would prove

your worth there was so much work.

After a couple of years of bouncing in and out of the group with no real

success at any length of clean time, I came back and tried it again with a

" I'm gonna do it this time attitude, " Unfortunately, nothing had changed and

soon I was back into the role of trying to prove I was making progress by

attending as many meetings as I could and trying to " share. " After staying

clean and sober for about a year and a half, I started questioning the whole

12 step approach feeling that I was getting nowhere and starting to resent

several of the people that had taken on the rolls of group gurus. I started

looking at other methods of sobriety, RR, SOS and SMART.

I was attending this one meeting in a church here in town that was run by

this one guy who was the guru there. I mentioned that I had been looking into

these other approaches to sobriety and that I found them to be quite helpful

with many of the things that I felt. Well, this cat cocked back in his chair

when I had finished " sharing " what I had been reading and told me that if I

was really SMART, I would get rid of those books and start working the

program. He said that these people were just trying to sell books and that I

should " stick with the winners. " Several of the people in the group got a

good chuckle out of his enlightening words. I looked around the room at these

so called winners. Many off them were just like me and couldn't muster up an

ounce of confidence about staying sober with this program of AA.

I left shortly after this and felt like there was no way I could go back. I

also felt that what they said about staying sober without them was true and

proceeded to prove them right. I finally came to a place in my life where I

had had enough and that if I was going to get sober, It was going to be up to

me, not some group of arrogant losers who tried to belittle anyone who didn't

like their way and all their steps which I could not accept. With a renewed

interest in getting sober, I went back and started reading the alternatives

that I had become interested in back then and started applying it to my life.

I found that I could get sober and stay sober and that it wasn't hard, I

didn't have to white-knuckle my way through the day.

Even though I spent about 5 years back in a life of drunkenness with many,

many days of personal and marital trouble, I am glad that I had that gap to

get a lot of that programming out of my head and that I could come back with

a new and fresh approach to living life without leaning on a bunch of people

to keep me sober. I know for me, that is impossible. I will never drink again

and never be a member of the 12 step cult. Life without alcohol is simple

without lies, deception and competition.

Mark

[Guest guest]

I found a really cool link:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4665/creation.html

[Guest guest]

I liked AA. The people are friendly and appear to be sober. There is a lot of comraderie and I am a very gregarious person. However, I don't like calling myself and alcoholic even if I am one, I am a person with a strong desire to do good. If that fits in with the AA requirement for membership, I am one, but it does not. I think the requirement for membership is to forsake all former Gods and join a cult, and even though I was dying, I was not willing. But I stayed, and I payed the price of non-membership. I hope that others will not have to. L

[Guest guest]

It is easy for me to get bitter towards AA/NA when I think about it very long

and I tend to rip on it because of just a few of the people that I

encountered while I was attending meetings. In reality though, I actually met

a lot of very nice people who, like myself, were just trying to get their

lives back in order and some were succeeding mainly out of fear of losing

what they had regained in their lives. In fact, one of my best friends is

still in AA although I don't see him very often anymore as we live in

separate towns.

The unfortunate thing was that so many of the people in the groups were being

duped and intimidated by just a few of the old timers who had the answer for

everything that was wrong with their lives, including myself. " My best

thinking is what got me there " I would here over and over. I found that to be

quite odd. One old timer who loved to brag about being sicker than the rest

would go on and on about how all the answers in life were right up there on

the wall and all you had to do was follow those instructions. His first wife

was in and out of mental hospitals with depression and suicidal tendencies.

Both his sons joined the service as soon as they could. One transferred to

Japan and the other to Alaska. One of his sponcees jumped off a bridge and

another blew his head off and this guy dished out advise like you wouldn't

believe.

I forget though that many of the people there were actually people that I

liked. It was the steps and the philosophy that I couldn't take and those

very few old timers that made meetings unbearable.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone

I am currently in AA and plan to be for a while, even though I have problems

with AA. In Chapter 2 THERE IS A SOLUTION on page 19-20 of Alcoholics

Anonymous this is the message:

Of necessity there will have to be discussion of matters medical,

psychiatric, social, and religious. We are aware that these matters are,

from their very nature, controversial. Nothing would please us so much as to

write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We

shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal. Most of us sense that real

tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for

their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our very

lives, as ex-problem drinkers , depend upon our constant thought of others

and how we may help meet their needs.

From this I believe that I have a choice. I do not want a sponsor and I know

that a sponsor would not be for me, I could lie in meetings and say I do,

but I openly admit that I do not use a sponosr. I get endless flack from my

fellow group members.

I am a athiest so I use modified versions of Steps 3,5,6,and 11. I never use

the words god or higher power. When I use the word spiritual I mean the real

meaning " of higher thoughts " . I had one fellow member ask me, " if you do not

believe in the afterlife/heaven, then what's the point of not drinking? "

I also have trouble with the way AA does not count any of the people who

drop out as AA's failures. Not all if these people could simply be not ready

to stop drinking.

abbadun

>From: Fugittem@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Re: Hi! I am new here.

>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:20:00 EDT

>

>I liked AA. The people are friendly and appear to be sober. There is a

>lot

>of comraderie and I am a very gregarious person. However, I don't like

>calling myself and alcoholic even if I am one, I am a person with a strong

>desire to do good. If that fits in with the AA requirement for membership,

>I

>am one, but it does not. I think the requirement for membership is to

>forsake all former Gods and join a cult, and even though I was dying, I was

>not willing. But I stayed, and I payed the price of non-membership. I

>hope

>that others will not have to. L

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I hear so many AA's share that the only way two drunks could create the

twelve step was by divine intervention. I raise my hand and ask, " didn't you

ever hear of Oxford Group or Buchman? " .

The trouble is that North of NYC or South of Boston AA is the only meetings

available.

abbadun

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Hi! I am new here.

>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:28:16 -0000

>

>Hi,Abbadun;

>     I was in much the same position as you for some 18 years. Atheist,and

>=

>quite frankly couldn't even accept the first step. But, I continued going,

>b=

>ecause it was the only game in town that I knew of. I really got tired of

>th=

>e criticism that I couldn't do it by myself, and just had to have a higher

>p=

>ower,or I couldn't make it.

>     Iwas digging through the Big Bookone day,and came across a section in

>=

>the asppendix that said something like this: " While some do experience what

>=

>we call a spiritual awakening, and alcoholism is lifted from them, these

>cas=

>es are rare. More frequently it is found that they discover untapped inner

>r=

>esources. " I decided to call these resources my higher power,just to

>mollify=

> them. But, oh no, they weren't buying that !!! So, for me, the cat was

>out =

>of the bag. They say one thing in the appendix, and them deny it to ones

>fac=

>e.

>     After I had been going to AA for 18 years, and was still trying to

>get=

> past 90 days--:~((, I heard about a new group that used Rational Emotive

>B=

>ehaviour Therapy, REBT, and began to feel real results, got 90 days, then 6

>=

>months, then a year, and all this time I was living the lie of pretending

>to=

> go along with AA, because I was living at a Sober Living house that

>require=

>d it. Finally, I got in a position where I was able to leave that house,

>and=

> wanted to sever the relationship with AA. So,at my last meeting, when it

>ca=

>me time to share, I said; " I'm Bob, an EX-alcoholic. " Every bored eye in

>the=

> place immediatly was riveted on me. I could hear everyone thinking:

> " Heresy=

> !!! "

>    I then told them that last night I had a spiritual awakening with my

>hi=

>gher power,and that as the Big Book promised, IT relieved me of my

>alcoholis=

>m. You could have heard a pin drop. Scoffing was in their eyes, but no one

>w=

>ould scoff out loud, wouldn't deny what their book says.

>    After the meeting, I shook hands with all, told them that since I'd

>bee=

>n relieved of my alcoholism I no longer had a need for meetings, and would

>b=

>e moving on to re-build my life.

>    I occaisonally see some of the old members, still struggling

>along, " one=

> day at a time " , and they're frankly amazed that I haven't returned to

>drink=

>ing. I learned that they had all written me off as hopeless, and doomed to

>d=

>rink. No one leaves AA with good wishes. This, to me, is proof that their

>go=

>al is lifetime membership, not a cure for ones addiction.

>    My only regret, is that I didn't hear about REBT many years earlier,

>bu=

>t I didn't even know who Albert Ellis was. I sure do now, and I thank him,

>a=

>nd the others who put his reasoning into recovery group form.    

>--------------------------------------------

>

>-- In 12-step-free@y..., " abbadun _ " wrote:

> > Hi Everyone

> >

> > I am currently in AA and plan to be for a while, even though I have

>probl=

>ems

> > with AA. In Chapter 2 THERE IS A SOLUTION on page 19-20 of Alcoholics

> > Anonymous this is the message:

> >

> >

> > Of necessity there will have to be discussion of matters medical,

> > psychiatric, social, and religious. We are aware that these matters are,

>=

>

> > from their very nature, controversial. Nothing would please us so much

>as=

> to

> > write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We

>=

>

> > shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal. Most of us sense that real

> > tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect

>for=

>

> > their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our

>ver=

>y

> > lives, as ex-problem drinkers , depend upon our constant thought of

>other=

>s

> > and how we may help meet their needs.

> >

> > From this I believe that I have a choice. I do not want a sponsor and I

>k=

>now

> > that a sponsor would not be for me, I could lie in meetings and say I

>do,=

>

> > but I openly admit that I do not use a sponosr. I get endless flack from

>=

>my

> > fellow group members.

> >

> > I am a athiest so I use modified versions of Steps 3,5,6,and 11. I never

>=

>use

> > the words god or higher power. When I use the word spiritual I mean the

>r=

>eal

> > meaning " of higher thoughts " . I had one fellow member ask me, " if you do

>=

>not

> > believe in the afterlife/heaven, then what's the point of not drinking? "

> >

> > I also have trouble with the way AA does not count any of the people who

>=

>

> > drop out as AA's failures. Not all if these people could simply be not

>re=

>ady

> > to stop drinking.

> >

> >

> > abbadun

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >From: Fugittem@a...

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y...

> > >To: 12-step-free@y...

> > >Subject: Re: Re: Hi! I am new here.

> > >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:20:00 EDT

> > >

> > >I liked AA. The people are friendly and appear to be sober. There is

>a=

>

> > >lot

> > >of comraderie and I am a very gregarious person. However, I don't like

> > >calling myself and alcoholic even if I am one, I am a person with a

>stro=

>ng

> > >desire to do good. If that fits in with the AA requirement for

>membersh=

>ip,

> > >I

> > >am one, but it does not. I think the requirement for membership is to

> > >forsake all former Gods and join a cult, and even though I was dying, I

>=

>was

> > >not willing. But I stayed, and I payed the price of non-membership. I

>=

>

> > >hope

> > >that others will not have to. L

> >

> >

> > _________________________________________________________________

> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.as=

>p

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

At 02:51 PM 10/24/01 -0400, abbadun _ wrote:

>I hear so many AA's share that the only way two drunks could create the

>twelve step was by divine intervention. I raise my hand and ask, " didn't you

>ever hear of Oxford Group or Buchman? " .

Even AA'ers knowledgable about AA's beginnings believe things such as

this. There's no logic behind these beliefs.

>The trouble is that North of NYC or South of Boston AA is the only meetings

>available.

This presumes two things, that you can't start an alternative

meeting (it IS harder than starting an AA meeting, but you don't need

any qualifications or authorization, except for WFS), and that you need

to attend some sort of meeting to stay sober (absolutely not true).

>abbadun

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I am just getting my feet firmly on the ground before I make a choice. I

have been courting AA for years, but just joined in February. I will use AA

for now.

abbadun

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Re: Hi! I am new here.

>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:36:44 -0400

>

>At 02:51 PM 10/24/01 -0400, abbadun _ wrote:

> >I hear so many AA's share that the only way two drunks could create the

> >twelve step was by divine intervention. I raise my hand and ask, " didn't

>you

> >ever hear of Oxford Group or Buchman? " .

>

> Even AA'ers knowledgable about AA's beginnings believe things such as

>this. There's no logic behind these beliefs.

>

> >The trouble is that North of NYC or South of Boston AA is the only

>meetings

> >available.

>

> This presumes two things, that you can't start an alternative

>meeting (it IS harder than starting an AA meeting, but you don't need

>any qualifications or authorization, except for WFS), and that you need

>to attend some sort of meeting to stay sober (absolutely not true).

>

> >abbadun

>

>----------

>http://listen.to/benbradley

_________________________________________________________________

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