Re: AA-Related Question

September 3, 2001

AA-Related Question

Hi,

I have never been in a discussion group before so here I go. I will try to be as concise as possible. I became re-involved with a man (that I knew intimately 25 years ago). Long story. He is one of these guru-types that I have been reading about as well as the director of a drug and alcohol treatment center for the last 16 years. Needless to say, the honeymoon wore off rather quickly. My glasses of wine with dinner didn't go over very well. Anyway, after being coerced into AA (only went to a couple weeks of meetings) I'm concerned about involuntary commitment. Would that ever be a tenet of a 12-step based treatment program? I know that comes across as paranoid but I would REALLY like to know. From what I understand, its usually a voluntary situation. Any knowledge on the subject would be greatly appreciated. I'm just not sure how fast to run.

Stacey,

Light that Chariot of Fire and put it in overdrive.

Aside from whether or not you want to quit drinking,

check the common sense information at www.rational.org to learn more about AA.

DT

September 3, 2001

Run fast. Run as fast as you can and stay away from aa meetings and people.

Jan

In a message dated 9/3/01 8:12:48 PM Central Daylight Time, spacey@...

writes:

<< Any knowledge on the subject would be greatly appreciated. I'm just not

sure how fast to run. >>

September 4, 2001

Run fast, very fast, and don't look back.

In a message dated 9/3/01 8:12:48 PM Central Daylight Time, spacey@...

writes:

<< Hi,

I have never been in a discussion group before so here I go. I will try to

be as concise as possible. I became re-involved with a man (that I knew

intimately 25 years ago). Long story. He is one of these guru-types that I

have been reading about as well as the director of a drug and alcohol

treatment center for the last 16 years. Needless to say, the honeymoon wore

off rather quickly. My glasses of wine with dinner didn't go over very well.

Anyway, after being coerced into AA (only went to a couple weeks of

meetings) I'm concerned about involuntary commitment. Would that ever be a

tenet of a 12-step based treatment program? I know that comes across as

paranoid but I would REALLY like to know. From what I understand, its

usually a voluntary situation. Any knowledge on the subject would be greatly

appreciated. I'm just not sure how fast to run. >>

September 4, 2001

Stacey asks, " Anyway, after being coerced into AA (only went to a couple weeks

of

meetings) I'm concerned about involuntary commitment. Would that ever be a

tenet of a

12-step based treatment program?... ...I'm just not sure how fast to run. "

I see that people are urging her to run like her pants were on fire. (Uhhh, not

that you

should actually run if your clothing catches fire. You should roll around on

the ground

to smother the flames, but rather, I was using a colorful figure of speech.)

So run like your pants are on fire. (But don't listen to me. Easy for me to go

yak yak

yak on the internet, but hellishly hard for me to break out of a destructive

relationship

myself. If I have a finger pointing at you, I have three pointing at myself.

Now, where

did I first hear that nifty slogan...?)

I see another question that needs to be addressed here, and that is the one of

coercion

and " involuntary committment " . By " coercion " and " involuntary committment " I

gather you

mean rehab rather than a mental health institution.

Now, how were you coerced into AA, and who did the coercing? Was it a court of

law? Was

it the EAP? Was it some counseling program or other?

Or was it this guy who was leaning on you?

AA by itself is supposedly based on " attraction rather than promotion " , so AA by

itself

doesn't coerce you to become a member. Or perhaps I should say, " officially and

legally

coerce " , because the individual members at meetings can sure put pressure on you

and give

you a really hard time and make your life miserable to get you to do what they

want.

But courts coerce people. And Rita can tell you a horror story about the EAP

and

coercion. But I don't know that an individual can have someone committed.

There was a

time when a man could have his rich wife committed to a nuthouse so that he

could enjoy

her money unimpeded, and that sort of thing was happening; but I'm told that

laws have

changed so that cannot be done any more. I do believe that a confused and

frightened

person can be pressured and bamboozled by an overbearing partner who is assisted

by a

doctor in an emergency room into agreeing to be put into mental health. But I

don't think

you can be put away just like that without some sort of more or less official

process

which shows that you are a danger to yourself or others.

Ditto rehab. I don't know that a private individual can make you go to rehab

just because

he feels like making you go to rehab. I'd think there would have to be some

sort of court

order, or some sort of EAP guidelines or policy at work, or some sort of

official process.

Not that such policies protect people from abuse, of course. People get shoved

into

involuntary treatment even so.

Can you tell us more, Stacey? What is happening that you fear involuntary

committment?

Who or what is threatening you?

Regards,

nz

September 4, 2001

At 08:26 PM 9/3/01 -0500, Stacey Jamail wrote:

>Hi,

>

>I have never been in a discussion group before so here I go. I will try

to be

>as concise as possible.

It's okay, you can write as much or as little as you want. Some of us

have written books.

>I became re-involved with a man (that I knew intimately 25 years ago).

>Long story. He is one of these guru-types that I have been reading about

>as well as the director of a drug and alcohol treatment center for the last

>16 years. Needless to say, the honeymoon wore off rather quickly. My

>glasses of wine with dinner didn't go over very well. Anyway, after

>being coerced into AA (only went to a couple weeks of meetings)

Who coerced you to AA, and how?

> I'm concerned about involuntary commitment. Would that ever be a tenet

>of a 12-step based treatment program?

There are things they will tell you to keep separate, but which are

quite intertwined. There's AA, and there's treatment centers. You may

notice (lets hope you don't go there) that practically all the treatment

center personell are AA members (they may not tell you they are,

but you can usually tell just by their use of AA phrases).

" They " will do whatever they perceive as what you need. What you think

you need is irrelevant to them.

There's a phamplet called " Let's be friendly with our friends " where it

talks about how AA cooperates (but of course " is not affiliated with " )

doctors, judges, police, treatment centers, Employee Assistance Programs,

and anyone else who may be in a position of power to refer a suspected

drinker to AA. AA itself doesn't do any coercing (at least not in the sense

that " you will go to AA or you will have gone against your parole

conditions " ), because it doesn't have to.

>I know that comes across as paranoid but I would REALLY like to know.

>From what I understand, its usually a voluntary situation. Any knowledge

>on the subject would be greatly appreciated. I'm just not sure how fast

>to run.

See others' comments. Also, if you've got a few extra minutes online, do

some web searching on groups such as Amway or Scientology, read a few of the

links, and imagine that a large percentage of doctors, lawyers and judges

had only heard positive things about these groups, and often 'referred'

people to them. How fast would you run?

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

September 4, 2001

> Hi,

>

> I have never been in a discussion group before so here I go. I

will try to be as concise as possible. I became re-involved with a

man (that I knew intimately 25 years ago). Long story. He is one of

these guru-types that I have been reading about as well as the

director of a drug and alcohol treatment center for the last 16

years. Needless to say, the honeymoon wore off rather quickly. My

glasses of wine with dinner didn't go over very well. Anyway, after

being coerced into AA (only went to a couple weeks of meetings) I'm

concerned about involuntary commitment. Would that ever be a tenet

of a 12-step based treatment program? I know that comes across as

paranoid but I would REALLY like to know. From what I understand,

its usually a voluntary situation. Any knowledge on the subject

would be greatly appreciated. I'm just not sure how fast to run.

Hi Stacey,

If he is the guru type you mentioned - your wine with dinner

isn't all that will not go over well. Many things will change -

and change to his liking. Does he know more about you, then you

of him? Can you find out for sure - the stuff he tells you

about himself.....or is it all a dead-end. Does he answer your

questions with only more questions? You answer yes to any of

these - run like hell. There's other things you can watch for

to.....wonder if there's a list of em in the files?? Some good

info in there also. Talk to former wives/girlfriends. Get

lots of goodies doing that number. Are you afraid he is going

to try and commit you? Is he using your drinking as leverage?

Your past?

Be around alot of people-not just aa folks.

Hope to hear from ya soon.

netty

September 4, 2001

Hi Stacey

I am not an expert on such matters even in the UK yet alone in the

US, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being committed for

alcohol abuse unless they are practically at death's door or getting

wet brain. For someone who will know write Stanton Peele:

speele@...

He is both a lawyer and a clinical psychologist and an expert on

addiction and 12-step coercion.

What I find rather odd is that it sounds like this guy is objecing o

you drinking *anything* alcohol with your meal - you don't mention

overindulging. Even if you got mildly tipsy, or even a fair deal

tipsy, it means nothing by itself unless you got antisocial or you do

it too often for your own welfare. This sounds a very long way from

alcoholism. In any case, the worst that usually happen to anybody is

called an " intervention " . Interventionists are basically bounty

hunters for the rehabs, paid for by them or a third party to deliver a

person to the rehab door. A person's whole family, friends,

relatives, and employers may be drafted in to pressure the person to

go into the rehab. If there are levers (like poor work performance,

threats of divorce and contested access to children etc) they

will be used. Unless you actually do have a significant problem and

this guy knows who to contact in the above categories, your most

unlikely to face anything like that. That only leaves whatever social

pressures this guy can put on you.

As you sound afraid of him andhave been pressured by him to AA against

your wishes, it might be an idea to put as much distance between him

and you as possible.

P.

> Hi,

>

> I have never been in a discussion group before so here I go. I will

try to be as concise as possible. I became re-involved with a man

(that I knew intimately 25 years ago). Long story. He is one of

these guru-types that I have been reading about as well as the

director of a drug and alcohol treatment center for the last 16 years.

Needless to say, the honeymoon wore off rather quickly. My glasses of

wine with dinner didn't go over very well. Anyway, after being

coerced into AA (only went to a couple weeks of meetings) I'm

concerned about involuntary commitment. Would that ever be a tenet of

a 12-step based treatment program? I know that comes across as

paranoid but I would REALLY like to know. From what I understand, its

usually a voluntary situation. Any knowledge on the subject would be

greatly appreciated. I'm just not sure how fast to run.

September 4, 2001

Interesting... I never new that " interventionists " were paid a bounty!

As for his discomort at someone's mild drinking, remember the AA mindset...

anyone who drinks *any* alcohol is either an alcoholic or they aren't...YET.

Or perhaps a bit of jealousy " If *I* can't drink I don't want to see other

people enjoying alcohol "

ANd while entrance to a treatment program may be voluntary, legally

speaking, refusing treatment can often have high costs, depending on who is

" recommending " it... there may be legal alternatives (like jail) or threat

of loss of one's job, or family custody issues.

-----Original Message-----

From: watts_pete@...

Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:13 PM