Hypothetical question/discussion...

[Guest guest]

Mike,

this 'question' you ask is what I've been grappling with since being dxed

with diabetes about 4 months ago. Mr endo says I am 'pre-diabetic' I

think... Anyway he said he wants me to control it through diet because my

A1C is just over the normal range and that I am to call him if my BS#s are

170 and don't go down for 3 days. Then he will put me on meds.

We are also thinking that my diabetes is prednisone induced since I've been

on pred for many years.

I am working with his team including the greatest nutritionist I've ever

found and I've been looking for one for a lot of years.

I take a lot of meds for other medical issues and I do not want to add any

more especially since my body has weird way of reacting to too many

medicines.

Add into this that I have an eating disorder called compulsive overeating

which means that when I get stressed I run to comfort foods. The past 3

years I've been STRESSED and managed to gain weight until I hit 200 lbs this

past Jan that I know of.

Now I am weighing in at 172 and feeling much much better all around.

I have noticed in the past 2 weeks that I am starting to think about

fooooood all the time instead of being happy with the foods I've been

eating, 3 meals nothing inbetween. Don't ask me how I've done it because I

don't know. I just know that I was also lucky last week to find a therapist

specializing in eating disorders and have had an appt with her already. I

think she might help....

For me, I want to get back to the 140 lbs I was 3 years ago which I

maintained for years after getting used to being on the pred. I was

comfortable at that weight even though it is not my ideal weight by the

'books'. When I get to 160 I will be a happy person and then aim for 150

and if I make that then aim for that 140.

I am being told left and right that if I weigh what I'm supposed to weigh I

won't have to worry about diabetes or meds IF I pay attention to what i eat.

I am nearly 60 years old so I figure " they " are right. By the time my

pre-diabetes turns into diabetes needing meds I'll be old - I hope.

I am working very hard right now to find more foods to eat that don't raise

my BS#s and will have to work very hard to go to either 3 meals and a snack

or 4 meals a day without 'binging' but I have to try.

For me, meds are a necessary part of my life, but I prefer to NOT eat what I

want more or less and go on diabetic meds too. this is subject to change

:-) but this is my goal for now.

oh, last thing: I prefer to keep as many chemicals out of my body as

possible. I have, as I said above, other serious medical issues and I am

sure it is because of all the chemicals I have dealt with all my life. And

today half of what we eat has chemicals in it!

I am also driving my diabetic husband (on meds eating pretty much what he

wants if you ask me) totally nuts with my new eating schedule and foods.

But, c'est la vie and that is a pun in French for this subject isn't it?

JUDITH

> You have diabetes. Which is 'better'?

>

> 1) Eat an unbalanced diet (high in meats, eliminating grains and

everything

> else that is high in carbs) an keep your blood sugar under control, or

>

> 2) Eat a balanced diet, appropriate for your weight and activity level,

> knowing you will need to take some medication to keep your blood sugar

under

> control.

--

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[Guest guest]

Jay,

I have found out in a mere 3 months of being dxed that I really need to

stick to a 25 or under carb meal. I can't figure out which foods to do this

with because to confuse things, I can drink an 8oz bottle of " Boost " (Like

an ensure product) that has 41 carbs and my BS# stays way down.

I am working on finding out which foods I can eat but I just can't seem to

figure out how to get enough calories, protein, fiber, and keep the carbs

under 25! And then again, some foods let me have decent BS#s with a meal

going over 25 carbs and others send my BS# higher with lower than 25 carbs.

Any suggestions? Is there somewhere on line that I can look up the Virginia

Mason clinic like I can access the Joslin clinic?

thanks for posting and sharing.

JUDITH

First and foremost, the term " unbalanced diet " assumes a correctness or

rightness that is exposing a particular prejudice, and therefore not open to

discussion.

The clinic I am treating my Type II with is Virginia Mason in Seattle which

claims to be on the leading edge of diabetes research, nationwide. They

eliminate: rice; potatoes; and all pasta. They tell you to eat no more than

15 carbohydrates per meal for a total of 45 per day which is even fewer

carbohydrates than the Atkins diet in maintenance mode. They teach you to

eat a balanced diet. And this approach is working for me and hundreds and

hundreds of others as well.

--

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.4/332 - Release Date: 5/4/06

[Guest guest]

You have diabetes. Which is 'better'?

1) Eat an unbalanced diet (high in meats, eliminating grains and everything

else that is high in carbs) an keep your blood sugar under control, or

2) Eat a balanced diet, appropriate for your weight and activity level,

knowing you will need to take some medication to keep your blood sugar under

control.

To me, it seems that the wiser choice is to eat a balanced diet, accept the

fact that you have diabetes and take medications as appropriate. Eating a

high (or higher) protein diet generally means increased amounts of fat as

well (not to mention the chemicals that protein breaks down to), and

generally, these types of diets are hard on the heart and kidneys. In the

long run are you trading your health for that pride in being able to not

take meds?

It just seems to me that if your body has either the inability to produce

insulin, produce enough, or to use it effectively; addressing this may, in

the long run be better for you than an extreme diet just to maintain

numbers.

I'm not telling anyone to do anything different... just want to get others

take on it.

Mike

[Guest guest]

Hello Mike.

Well, this is the first time I have posted any messages here, as I

have been posting on the other Yahoo Groups. I have Type II Diabetes.

I agree with you, a balanced diet is better, even if you have to use

insulin and oral medications to control your blood sugars.

The the ADA American Diabetes Association recommends the we get 60%

percent of our daily calories from Carbohydrates which might be OK

for most people, but I think it's too high for diabetics.

On the other hand, Dr. Bernstein recommends only 10% to 15% percent

of our calories from carbohydrates which I think is too low.

Dr. Atkins recommends almost ZERO percent of our daily calories from

carbohydrates, a very unbalanced diet.

So, I prefer a middle ground between the two extremes.

I like getting around 30% to 35% percent of my daily calories from

carbohydrates, because I like to eat plenty of vegetables and fresh

fruit, and if I have to take extra insulin and oral medications to

balance the effect of those carbohydrates than so be it!

Of coures I avoid all refined carbohydrates and get my carbohydrates

from fruit and vegetables. There are good carbs and there are bad

carbs and I avoid the bad ones.

I need to all the vitamins and minerals I can get from vegetables and

fresh fruit to support the nutritional needs of my large body, and

eating a banana helps to control my craving for sweets, so I can't

cut the carbs as low as some people might recommend.

OK! I admit it, I'm very obese, at 5 ft. 6 in. and weighing in at 305

pounds and I'm 54 years old. (I've been told that I look much

younger) I have never been able to lose weight and keep it off for

long, it just keeps coming back on again. When I lose weight, I might

lose some fat, but I also lose muscle, and when I gain the weight

back, its all fat. My weight has been up and down and back up again

too many times (The Yo Yo Syndrome) and my muscles and become soft,

flabby, and weak as a result, and my metabolism is much slower now,

so that I now require fewer calories to maintain my weight. I have to

go around feeling hungry all the time just to prevent any further

weight gain, so I have decided to get off of that mad roller coaster

ride and make no further attempts to lose weight.

I'm fortuante that despite my obesity, my blood pressure is normal

usually around 110/70, my total cholesterol is only 100 with an HDL

of 40 and an LDL of 60, and my triglycerides are only 70.

My cholesterol is actually too low. I've been told that it should not

be less the 160, and having low cholesterol can bring on symptoms of

depression and anxiety, leading to criminal and even suicidal

behaviour in men, so now, I'm actually afraid to make any more

attempts to lose weight, I'm scared to death that if I do, my

cholesterol would drop to dangerously low levels, so I must sat fat

to keep that from happening.

I've been trying to get some exercise, so, I've been climbing stairs

almost every day to rebuild the muscles in my short fat legs. Since I

live in a nine story high rise, there are plenty of stairs to climb.

Over a month ago when I first started, I had to stop every third

floor to catch my breath, but now I can make it to the sixth floor

before I have to stop for a breather, and then I continue on to the

ninth floor.

My therapist who has been treating me for anxiety and depression is

going to get me a set of weights so I can rebuild the muscles in my

soft flabby arms and chest.

Right now my muscles are so flabby and weak I've become floppy like a

305 pound rag doll. I don't have my own transportation so I use the

city bus to get around town. Sometime the bus starts moving before I

have a chance to sit down, and I have fallen on people a few times,

and nobody likes having a 305 pound marshmallow falling on them. So I

seriously need to get tone up again.

I believe that we fat people need to build up our muscles instead of

struggling to lose the fat.

But in spite of my exercising I've still been gaining weight because

exercise increases my appetite. Anyway, I have heard that a fat

person who gets exercise and eats the right foods is better off than

a skinny couch potato who eats nothing but crap.

The medications I've been using is 500 milligrams of Metformin, 45

milligrams of actos when I get up in the morning. My blood sugar is

usually around 105 to 110 when I wake up, and I have a banana for my

brekfast or an apple.

Then at 11:30 AM I take my insulin, 43 units of Humalog 75/20 and at

12:00 noon my blood sugars are at 110 before I have my lunch, then a

hour after eating it goes up to around 150 before coming back down

again. Through out the afternoon I have a banana once each hour to

keep my blood sugars from going too low.

Then at 7:30 PM I take 28 units of insulin before my last meal of the

day. Before eating my blood sugars are around 100 to 110, but after

my evening meal it goes up to 180, which is still too high, before

coming back down again, so I may have to take more insulin or some

more oral medications before my evening meal.

When I get ready to go to bed, my blood sugars are usually around 100

or 105, so I have some fruit before going to bed to keep it from

dropping too low while I'm asleep.

I have a doctors appointment in a couple of weeks, so I'm going to

talk to her about increasing my medications. I just know she's going

to pitch a hissy fit when she sees that I've gained back the weight I

had lost.

While chatting with people on some of the other Yahoo Diabetes

Groups, I have noticed that a lot of people only half my weight are

taking up to 2000 milligrams of Metformin every day, and yet they

complain of blood sugars running twice as high as mine.

I just need to get my evening blood sugars back under control, so I'm

probably not getting enough medications for my body weight.

I don't want to be put on one those unbalanced extermely high protein

diets so I would rather use the insulin and the medications to keep

my blood sugars under control.

>

> You have diabetes. Which is 'better'?

>

> 1) Eat an unbalanced diet (high in meats, eliminating grains and

everything

> else that is high in carbs) an keep your blood sugar under control,

or

>

> 2) Eat a balanced diet, appropriate for your weight and activity

level,

> knowing you will need to take some medication to keep your blood

sugar under

> control.

[Guest guest]

Hello Mike.

Well, this is the first time I have posted any messages here, as I

have been posting on the other Yahoo Groups. I have Type II Diabetes.

I agree with you, a balanced diet is better, even if you have to use

insulin and oral medications to control your blood sugars.

The the ADA American Diabetes Association recommends the we get 60%

percent of our daily calories from Carbohydrates which might be OK

for most people, but I think it's too high for diabetics.

On the other hand, Dr. Bernstein recommends only 10% to 15% percent

of our calories from carbohydrates which I think is too low.

Dr. Atkins recommends almost ZERO percent of our daily calories from

carbohydrates, a very unbalanced diet.

So, I prefer a middle ground between the two extremes.

I like getting around 30% to 35% percent of my daily calories from

carbohydrates, because I like to eat plenty of vegetables and fresh

fruit, and if I have to take extra insulin and oral medications to

balance the effect of those carbohydrates than so be it!

Of coures I avoid all refined carbohydrates and get my carbohydrates

from fruit and vegetables. There are good carbs and there are bad

carbs and I avoid the bad ones.

I need to all the vitamins and minerals I can get from vegetables and

fresh fruit to support the nutritional needs of my large body, and

eating a banana helps to control my craving for sweets, so I can't

cut the carbs as low as some people might recommend.

OK! I admit it, I'm very obese, at 5 ft. 6 in. and weighing in at 305

pounds and I'm 54 years old. (I've been told that I look much

younger) I have never been able to lose weight and keep it off for

long, it just keeps coming back on again. When I lose weight, I might

lose some fat, but I also lose muscle, and when I gain the weight

back, its all fat. My weight has been up and down and back up again

too many times (The Yo Yo Syndrome) and my muscles and become soft,

flabby, and weak as a result, and my metabolism is much slower now,

so that I now require fewer calories to maintain my weight. I have to

go around feeling hungry all the time just to prevent any further

weight gain, so I have decided to get off of that mad roller coaster

ride and make no further attempts to lose weight.

I'm fortuante that despite my obesity, my blood pressure is normal

usually around 110/70, my total cholesterol is only 100 with an HDL

of 40 and an LDL of 60, and my triglycerides are only 70.

My cholesterol is actually too low. I've been told that it should not

be less the 160, and having low cholesterol can bring on symptoms of

depression and anxiety, leading to criminal and even suicidal

behaviour in men, so now, I'm actually afraid to make any more

attempts to lose weight, I'm scared to death that if I do, my

cholesterol would drop to dangerously low levels, so I must sat fat

to keep that from happening.

I've been trying to get some exercise, so, I've been climbing stairs

almost every day to rebuild the muscles in my short fat legs. Since I

live in a nine story high rise, there are plenty of stairs to climb.

Over a month ago when I first started, I had to stop every third

floor to catch my breath, but now I can make it to the sixth floor

before I have to stop for a breather, and then I continue on to the

ninth floor.

My therapist who has been treating me for anxiety and depression is

going to get me a set of weights so I can rebuild the muscles in my

soft flabby arms and chest.

Right now my muscles are so flabby and weak I've become floppy like a

305 pound rag doll. I don't have my own transportation so I use the

city bus to get around town. Sometime the bus starts moving before I

have a chance to sit down, and I have fallen on people a few times,

and nobody likes having a 305 pound marshmallow falling on them. So I

seriously need to get tone up again.

I believe that we fat people need to build up our muscles instead of

struggling to lose the fat.

But in spite of my exercising I've still been gaining weight because

exercise increases my appetite. Anyway, I have heard that a fat

person who gets exercise and eats the right foods is better off than

a skinny couch potato who eats nothing but crap.

The medications I've been using is 500 milligrams of Metformin, 45

milligrams of actos when I get up in the morning. My blood sugar is

usually around 105 to 110 when I wake up, and I have a banana for my

brekfast or an apple.

Then at 11:30 AM I take my insulin, 43 units of Humalog 75/20 and at

12:00 noon my blood sugars are at 110 before I have my lunch, then a

hour after eating it goes up to around 150 before coming back down

again. Through out the afternoon I have a banana once each hour to

keep my blood sugars from going too low.

Then at 7:30 PM I take 28 units of insulin before my last meal of the

day. Before eating my blood sugars are around 100 to 110, but after

my evening meal it goes up to 180, which is still too high, before

coming back down again, so I may have to take more insulin or some

more oral medications before my evening meal.

When I get ready to go to bed, my blood sugars are usually around 100

or 105, so I have some fruit before going to bed to keep it from

dropping too low while I'm asleep.

I have a doctors appointment in a couple of weeks, so I'm going to

talk to her about increasing my medications. I just know she's going

to pitch a hissy fit when she sees that I've gained back the weight I

had lost.

While chatting with people on some of the other Yahoo Diabetes

Groups, I have noticed that a lot of people only half my weight are

taking up to 2000 milligrams of Metformin every day, and yet they

complain of blood sugars running twice as high as mine.

I just need to get my evening blood sugars back under control, so I'm

probably not getting enough medications for my body weight.

I don't want to be put on one those unbalanced extermely high protein

diets so I would rather use the insulin and the medications to keep

my blood sugars under control.

>

> You have diabetes. Which is 'better'?

>

> 1) Eat an unbalanced diet (high in meats, eliminating grains and

everything

> else that is high in carbs) an keep your blood sugar under control,

or

>

> 2) Eat a balanced diet, appropriate for your weight and activity

level,

> knowing you will need to take some medication to keep your blood

sugar under

> control.

[Guest guest]

>>>>You have diabetes. Which is 'better'?

1) Eat an unbalanced diet (high in meats, eliminating grains and everything else

that is high in carbs) an keep your blood sugar under control, or

2) Eat a balanced diet, appropriate for your weight and activity level,

knowing you will need to take some medication to keep your blood sugar under

control.

Hello Mike,

This question has haunted me since I found out I had diabetes almost 4 years

ago. My problem is I have yet to find which way works best for me. One week I

am eating low-carb and then the next I am eating low-fat. Either way I go it

seems like my numbers are the same. I would eat the way that would keep my

numbers the lowest but it doesn't seem to matter. I have posted this on here

before but whenever I go low-carb my numbers actually go up. They also go up

when I eat higher carb and low fat. I never lose any weight because of my

erratic and confused eating habits. I get so disgusted when I don't eat carbs

and my numbers are still high so then I go back to low-fat. My family is always

teasing me asking are we on low-carb or low-fat this week?

Also, whenever I exercise my numbers go up. If exercise would bring my

numbers down I would be on one of my exercise machines every time I ate

something. None of it is that easy for me.

I get very depressed because I work at this most of my time and things just

seem to be getting worse. Work at it = I experiment with different diets, I

journal, I test, I exercise, I read constantly about diabetes and what to do.

It involves most of my days but nothing changes. I guess the bottom line is I

am doing the best I can and that's all I can do.

But to answer your question........ As of today, what I am going to try,

after having high numbers all week from low-carb is the old standby

well-balanced, low-fat diet and count my calories. I am going to try to eat

only low glycemic carbs. Next Saturday, after yet another week of high numbers,

I will probably be back to low-carb.

Testing........ sometimes I think testing is hurting more than helping.

Whenever I try so hard and then see high numbers it makes me discouraged and

then I go off my diet plan. The same thing goes for exercise. When I test

after exercising and see those high numbers then I don't exercise anymore.

Medication....... Right now I am taking 36 units Levemir, 10 mcg Byetta,

1500mg Glucophage, and around 50 units of Novolog daily. I have to take all of

those drugs no matter what diet I follow. And it seems like I am slowly having

to increase them. Depressing.........

Kat

[Guest guest]

>

> This question has haunted me since I found out I had diabetes

almost 4 years ago. My problem is I have yet to find which way

works best for me. One week I am eating low-carb and then the next

I am eating low-fat. Either way I go it seems like my numbers are

the same. I would eat the way that would keep my numbers the lowest

but it doesn't seem to matter. I have posted this on here before

but whenever I go low-carb my numbers actually go up. They also go

up when I eat higher carb and low fat. I never lose any weight

because of my erratic and confused eating habits. >

> Also, whenever I exercise my numbers go up. If exercise would

bring my numbers down I would be on one of my exercise machines

every time I ate something. None of it is that easy for me.

Things don't work that quickly. You are not going to get consistent

sugars by constantly changing how you eat and by exercising

irregularly. I'd suggest you settle into a steady routine of diet

and exercise. Start with a moderately low carb diet, about 100-125

grams/day as evenly divided among 3 meals and a snack or two as

possible, with low saturated and trans fats. Try to achieve a

calorie intake that will produce slow weight loss, maybe half a

pound a week - that's only a little over 200 calories less a day.

Exercise regularly - at least 3-4 times a week. Do that for at

least 3 months (not days, not weeks, but months) and have your

doctor adjust your meds as needed.

The trick is to develop a consistent regimen of diet, exercise, and

meds that keep your sugars as constant as possible. Make changes

slowly in your regimen. Don't get frustrated if things don't work

instantly. The body needs time to reach an equalibrium. Don't make

changes because a few blood sugars are out of line. Look for

patterns over weeks. Rely on your HgA1c's every 3 months to dictate

changes. Remember that this is a lifetime disease. There's nothing

wrong with taking a year or more to work out what regimen will work

for you.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I was diagnosed last December, so I don't have a lot of experience with

diabetes. And at that time my A1c was 7.1, it has come down to 6.1, I

expect it to be lower next time. I am averaging around 120 (whole blood)

right now based on the meter.

So it isn't extreme and we caught it early, but it is clear and evident that

I have insulin resistance. My father had type 2, 15 years earlier than me.

I didn't understand how he really wasn't aware of what he was doing, he

never used a meter and took insulin twice a day. He pretty much ate

whatever he wanted. He lived with it for over 30 years and in the end it

was cancer that killed him. (Everyone should get a colonoscopy if possible,

once they are 50, or whatever will substitute for it in the future).

For me pharmaceuticals are the very last straw, and I won't take them until

I have to. It is a personal decision. So I eat as many vegetables of the

less sweet variety as I want, more meat, cheese, eggs and nuts than I used

to, and far fewer carbs overall. I weigh things, especially the nuts,

because they have so many calories. I've lost 16 pounds and right now I am

just keeping it steady, and will work on losing more in a few months. I

need to lose another 30 pounds or so. Things are very unsettled now, I am

getting ready to retire, and I am trying to not be stressed. I used to eat

a lot of sugar, and eat none now other than what is in food naturally. I

take some herbals that make a clear difference, based on the meter results.

I have a good deal of experience with herbals for other things, although

diabetes is new to me. My endocrinologist said " Whatever you are doing,

keep doing it. " My cholesterol is excellent, though, so it is a little

easier for me than if it was not.

I am adding more carbs one by one as I figure out which ones spike my blood

sugar less. I think this probably varies a lot from one person to another.

Any kind of wheat flour is bad for me, and potatoes seem not to be so bad,

but I am very careful about serving size. Today I made a pot of chili with

chana dal, it will be interesting to see what it does. It has one can of

white beans in it also. It's really tasty, at least, and felt very

satisfying.

I don't know about the long term, of course, and I will take pharmaceuticals

if and when I can't manage without them, I'm not a fanatic about it. But my

mother, who is not diabetic, has been very trusting of pharmaceuticals all

her life and has problems now that are generally agreed to have been caused

by them by all the doctors she has seen. And it is possible the things that

she has taken the drugs for might have killed her long ago, so it is a trade

off. It was like pulling hair to get her to try anything that wasn't made

from chemicals by a drug company. But she got over that once she lived with

me for a few years. At this point she can't tolerate the side effects of

drugs she really needs to take, so I have concluded that the longer you can

put it off and the fewer of them you take, the better off you are likely to

be.

But it is all a balancing act.

Jan

Jan Hodges

http://www.greentwo.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike:

First and foremost, the term " unbalanced diet " assumes a correctness or

rightness that is exposing a particular prejudice, and therefore not open to

discussion.

The clinic I am treating my Type II with is Virginia Mason in Seattle which

claims to be on the leading edge of diabetes research, nationwide. They

eliminate: rice; potatoes; and all pasta. They tell you to eat no more than 15

carbohydrates per meal for a total of 45 per day which is even fewer

carbohydrates than the Atkins diet in maintenance mode. They teach you to eat a

balanced diet. And this approach is working for me and hundreds and hundreds of

others as well.

Then, if you follow Bernstein's plan instead of Virginia Mason, you are

limited to 4 (as in four) carbohydrates per meal which is fewer than the Atkins

diet in induction mode. And, Bernstein is advocating a balanced diet. The

proof in Bernstein's plan is that he is the first Type I diabetic to live beyond

age 37 and I believe he is now in his sixties. He has also assisted many others

to reduce their BS levels to a normal level on diet (and exercise) alone,

providing them with longevity and well being they had not been getting before.

Your statement that " these types of diets are hard on the heart and kidneys "

couldn't be farther from the truth and all that I've got to show for my

McDougall and Ornish life style (or close to them) is Type II diabetes. I am

highly reactive to carbohydrates. A single bowl of oatmeal with nothing added

sends my BS to significantly higher levels than two large bowls of wonderful ice

cream. (I will continue to eat ice cream once every couple of months, but have

to drop my favorite - oatmeal.) Two double extra dry martinis don't raise my BS

one iota, so I'll continue to drink them too. So by cutting out oatmeal and

most ice cream (but not martinis), I'm living one hell of a lot better than I

ever did with McDougall and Ornish!!!!! And I feel it too. I could never lose

weight on McD and O, but by following my Virginia Mason plan and eliminating

excess carbos my weight along with my BS is down and my blood pressure is down

too.

It's not a matter of which is better, it's whether or not you wish to live a

healthy and productive lifestyle.

Understanding what is really a healthy diet is in its infancy.

Jay

<<You have diabetes. Which is 'better'?

1) Eat an unbalanced diet (high in meats, eliminating grains and everything

else that is high in carbs) an keep your blood sugar under control, or

2) Eat a balanced diet, appropriate for your weight and activity level,

knowing you will need to take some medication to keep your blood sugar under

control.

To me, it seems that the wiser choice is to eat a balanced diet, accept the

fact that you have diabetes and take medications as appropriate. Eating a

high (or higher) protein diet generally means increased amounts of fat as

well (not to mention the chemicals that protein breaks down to), and

generally, these types of diets are hard on the heart and kidneys. In the

long run are you trading your health for that pride in being able to not

take meds?

It just seems to me that if your body has either the inability to produce

insulin, produce enough, or to use it effectively; addressing this may, in

the long run be better for you than an extreme diet just to maintain

numbers.

I'm not telling anyone to do anything different... just want to get others

take on it.

Mike>>

[Guest guest]

<< The proof in Bernstein's plan is that he is the first Type I

diabetic to live beyond age 37 and I believe he is now in his sixties.

>>

Jay,

With all due respect, where did you find this outrageous " statistic " ?

You're saying that before Dr. Bernstein, no Type 1 ever lived past

the age of 38? That is completely untrue. I have become acquainted

with many, MANY Type 1s, some who are *older* than Dr. Bernstein, who

are WELL past the age of 37 and who reached the age of 37 prior to

Bernstein's reaching that " goal. " Type 1 diabetes is not a death

sentence. Yes, there may be different challenges involved in

controlling and managing Type 1 that Type 2s don't encounter, but I

cannot comprehend what would compel you to make a statement like that.

And for the record, although I am much younger than Bernstein, I

passed age 37 three years ago. I'm still here -- and although I am

very careful about what I eat (and always have been, since long before

my T1 diagnosis 8.5 years ago), I hardly eat a low carb diet -- not

even CLOSE. I haven't had an A1c above 6.0 in over seven years. My

last two A1cs were 5.2 and 5.3. I live a normal life with normal

blood sugars without a drastic reduction in carbs, and use no more

than 25-28 units of insulin, TOTAL, basal and bolus (I'm on a pump),

per day. While the average American diet can be extreme in terms of

the amount of carbs that are consumed (averaging 300 grams per day),

Bernstein is the polar opposite extreme with his 6/12/12 regimen. It

is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for someone who does not eat meat and poultry

and who only occasionally eats fish (occasionally meaning once or

twice per month at most -- and even that disturbs me when I do it) to

eat so few carbs. Choosing the RIGHT carbs, however, has certainly

worked for me.

I'm sorry -- I was just very confused by your statement.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Your statement that " these types of diets are hard on the heart and

> kidneys " couldn't be farther from the truth and all that I've got to show

> for my McDougall and Ornish life style (or close to them) is Type II

> diabetes. I am highly reactive to carbohydrates. A single bowl of oatmeal

> with nothing added sends my BS to significantly higher levels than two large

> bowls of wonderful ice cream. (I will continue to eat ice cream once every

> couple of months, but have to drop my favorite - oatmeal.) Two double extra

> dry martinis don't raise my BS one iota, so I'll continue to drink them

> too. So by cutting out oatmeal and most ice cream (but not martinis), I'm

> living one hell of a lot better than I ever did with McDougall and

> Ornish!!!!! And I feel it too. I could never lose weight on McD and O, but

> by following my Virginia Mason plan and eliminating excess carbos my weight

> along with my BS is down and my blood pressure is down too.

A high protein, high fat diet is *not* Ornish. Ornish is basically low fat,

low simple carbs. Ornish does look favoribly on complex carbs. However,

they may not work well with your blood sugar. Ornish has been proven to

reverse heart disease, which is a problem that may plague diabetics.

Also, martinis are not really carbs. Alcohol is digested more like a fat.

This is why it has little impact on your blood sugar (and can acutally lower

it). I believe that this is the reason many diabetic medications caution

about the use of alcohol... because of the potential of a low.

15 carbs per meal is much different than eliminating carbs totally.

It's not a matter of which is better, it's whether or not you wish to live a

> healthy and productive lifestyle.

>

> Understanding what is really a healthy diet is in its infancy.

Since understanding what is really a healthy diet is in it's infancy, maybe

we will find that an extreme restriction of a particular class of food (i.e.,

complex carbs), in the long run, is less healthy than a less restrictive

diet with the addition of insulin (or insulin producing drugs) that allow

the body to make use of the nutritional intake?

Mike

[Guest guest]

>

The proof in Bernstein's plan is that he is the first Type I diabetic

to live beyond age 37 and I believe he is now in his sixties.

I don't know where you got that. It's not even close to true. Type

1's have been living into their 60's and beyond since the first

insulins became available. It's very common.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I got it from his book, " Diabetes Solution " and am not going to re-read it to

confirm it. I just remember the statement.

Here is a statement from his website at:

http://www.diabetes911.net/readit/chapter7.shtml

" Big inputs make big mistakes; small inputs make small mistakes. "

That is the first thing my friend Kanji Ishikawa says to himself each morning on

arising. It is his mantra, the single most important thing he knows about

diabetes.

Kanji is the oldest surviving Type I diabetic in Japan (he is, by the way,

younger than I, but afflicted with numerous long-term diabetic complications

because of many years of uncontrolled blood sugars). "

While that statement doesn't replicate the one I made, it supports it by

pointing out that Dr. Bernstein is older than the oldest surviving Type I in

Japan, a modern country with medical care just as good as we have in the USA.

Bernstein was the very first person to do home BS monitoring. The very first

person to specifically determine which elements of his diet were affecting his

BS levels. He did all of this in the 1960s or 1970s (with a monitoring device

that was only available to physicians - his wife was an MD) and it was during

that period of time that he was relating about in his book that to that point in

time, no Type I's had lived beyond age 37. And I'll stick with that statement

and you can challenge Dr. Bernstein on that point. We are now more than 30

years beyond that period of time which would give lots of Type I's the

opportunity to live beyond 37, and in so doing you can give Bernstein the

credit. The medical community refused to listen to him at that time (he was

then an engineer) and so he went to medical school and became a doctor just to

get them to listen - and it took them ages to do so, even when he got his MD.

So, up until about the mid-1970s or even the 1980s BS monitoring (essential to

diabetic health) was only once every week or two - in a doctors office, and Type

I's had no way to adjust medication to the daily shifts in BS levels.

I stand by the statement I made earlier.

Jay

wrote:

Jay,

With all due respect, where did you find this outrageous " statistic " ?

You're saying that before Dr. Bernstein, no Type 1 ever lived past

the age of 38? That is completely untrue. I have become acquainted

with many, MANY Type 1s, some who are *older* than Dr. Bernstein, who

are WELL past the age of 37 and who reached the age of 37 prior to

Bernstein's reaching that " goal. " Type 1 diabetes is not a death

sentence. Yes, there may be different challenges involved in

controlling and managing Type 1 that Type 2s don't encounter, but I

cannot comprehend what would compel you to make a statement like that.......

[Guest guest]

Ron,

She's having a hard time being consistent b/c of the way her

sugars are going. That's why she keeps going back and forth.

Some Diabetics regardless of whether or not they are newly

diagnosed or veterans to the disease have a harder time

maintaining control b/c of the way that their body deals with

the disease. That's one of the reasons why this is not a one

size fits all disease.

Daughter of Type 2 Insulin Dependent Diabetic,

Kristy

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I recently read an article about 2 brothers who were diagnosed as

children with type 1, and they are now either in their 100's or

pushing it...can't remember exactly. I dunno...maybe they're only in

their 80's. Even so, that would put their diagnosis before

Bernstein's birth, and obviously they are older than him.

~Jess NYS

>

> Hi :

>

> I got it from his book, " Diabetes Solution " and am not going to

re-read it to confirm it. I just remember the statement.

>

> Here is a statement from his website at:

>

> http://www.diabetes911.net/readit/chapter7.shtml

>

> " Big inputs make big mistakes; small inputs make small mistakes. "

>

> That is the first thing my friend Kanji Ishikawa says to himself

each morning on arising. It is his mantra, the single most important

thing he knows about diabetes.

>

> Kanji is the oldest surviving Type I diabetic in Japan (he is, by

the way, younger than I, but afflicted with numerous long-term

diabetic complications because of many years of uncontrolled blood

sugars). "

>

> While that statement doesn't replicate the one I made, it supports

it by pointing out that Dr. Bernstein is older than the oldest

surviving Type I in Japan, a modern country with medical care just as

good as we have in the USA.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi :

>

> I got it from his book, " Diabetes Solution " and am not going to re-

read it to confirm it. I just remember the statement.

>

> Here is a statement from his website at:

>

> http://www.diabetes911.net/readit/chapter7.shtml

>

> " Big inputs make big mistakes; small inputs make small mistakes. "

>

> That is the first thing my friend Kanji Ishikawa says to himself

each morning on arising. It is his mantra, the single most important

thing he knows about diabetes.

>

> Kanji is the oldest surviving Type I diabetic in Japan (he is, by

the way, younger than I, but afflicted with numerous long-term

diabetic complications because of many years of uncontrolled blood

sugars). "

>

> While that statement doesn't replicate the one I made, it supports

it by pointing out that Dr. Bernstein is older than the oldest

surviving Type I in Japan, a modern country with medical care just

as good as we have in the USA.

>

> Bernstein was the very first person to do home BS monitoring. The

very first person to specifically determine which elements of his

diet were affecting his BS levels. He did all of this in the 1960s

or 1970s (with a monitoring device that was only available to

physicians - his wife was an MD) and it was during that period of

time that he was relating about in his book that to that point in

time, no Type I's had lived beyond age 37. And I'll stick with that

>statement and you can challenge Dr. Bernstein on that point.

I'd certainly like to see the exact quote. The statement simply

isn't true. I was practicing medicine in the late 1960's and had

numerous type 1 diabetics at the time in their 40's, 50's, 60's and

even 70's as patients. True, many died younger than now, and many

had complications earlier, but certainly many lived beyond 37.

Also, you can't credit Dr. Bernstein (who, incidentally, I do have

great respect for) for many diabetics now living into their 60's and

beyond. The plain fact is that only a very small percentage of

diabetics follow Dr. Bernstein's regimen.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi Ron:

<<I'd certainly like to see the exact quote. The statement simply

isn't true. I was practicing medicine in the late 1960's and had

numerous type 1 diabetics at the time in their 40's, 50's, 60's and

even 70's as patients. True, many died younger than now, and many

had complications earlier, but certainly many lived beyond 37.>>

I'd like to find the exact quote to, but the latest book is 470 pages and I

don't remember if it was in his first or second edition of the book and I'm not

about to search for it.

<<Also, you can't credit Dr. Bernstein (who, incidentally, I do have great

respect for) for many diabetics now living into their 60's and beyond.>>

No where did I credit him for that. However, you know very well that both

longevity and lifestyle have significantly improved for both I's and II's due to

home testing - and he is solely responsible for that. He tried to buy a monitor

for his home use and the manufacturer refused to sell it to him. He then had

his MD wife buy it for him and became the very first person to independently

home monitor and the first to recognize the value of its usage. Would we be

home monitoring now if he hadn't? It's hard to tell. The medical community is

so stubborn and egotistical it's difficult to really understand how he was able

to take an office procedure into the home.

<<The plain fact is that only a very small percentage of diabetics follow Dr.

Bernstein's regimen.>>

That's very true. But you omit the reason for that. The reason is because it

is very difficult to follow a 12 carbohydrate per day eating plan (plus he uses

a lot of supplements too). Even today there are physicians and dietitians out

there who do not support even the low-carbohydrate life style (45 per day) that

I was introduced to at Virginia Mason. Even the American Diabetes Association

doesn't recognize it. In fact, I looked at some of ADA's recipes and they are

filled with carbos, significantly more than what my clinic is prescribing and

off the charts of what Bernstein recommends. Now I'm not saying that carbos are

evil per se, but the ADA doesn't seem to recognize their destructive

capabilities. And, some people I am sure can get by with complex carbohydrates

and/or glycemic index watching, but how many? I have a Type II insulin

dependent brother who along with several of his Type II friends throw almost all

recommended diet styles out the window because all they have to do to control BS

is shoot up with insulin. It is the simple American solution to all problems,

either take a pill or a shot to cure a problem. Very few are willing to take

responsibility for their own condition and live a regimen like the one that Dr.

Bernstein recommends. That's the reason that very few follow it.

And that gets me back to the original point from the original poster which is:

What is a balanced diet? For me, it's whatever works for the individual.

Doctors and dieticians are so out of it for what is " good " for you that it will

take decades for us to find our way. And number one in that direction is - each

one of us is unique. Each one reacts differently to what we ingest. As I

posted a few weeks ago, my BS went to 196 after eating one plain (no milk, no

sugar, just a little salt) bowl of steel cut oatmeal. After eating two very

large bowls of good ice cream, it only went to 181. When I follow the VM diet

plan I rarely exceed 120 and am generally in the 90 - 110 range. Someone on

list pointed out that they eat oatmeal and it doesn't raise their BS at all.

So, when someone wants to start a discussion as to whether a high carbohydrate

diet is better than a high protein diet, what works for one does not work for

another.

By the way, of the 20 people in my diabetes class taught by Virginia Mason, by

restricting carbohydrates to 15 per meal, (45 total per day) all but one person

(he had just come off of a cruise to the Bahamas) lost weight in two months

time. One woman lost 28 pounds, I myself lost 12. Just by watching the carbos

alone! In my opinion, weight loss is the very best thing one can do to lower BS

for Type II. Since the start of that class I have now lost 17 pounds and my BMI

is in the normal range (24.6) for the first time in several years. My goal is

to lose at least another 20 pounds.

Bottom line is that Bernstein pioneered many efforts in diabetic

treatment and he is still shunned by a large portion of the medical and

dietician communities.

May all your blood sugars stay in the normal range.

Jay

[Guest guest]

Jay,

We would like to see the quote pls even though you don't feel

like researching it.

I want to see it b/c now I'm curious about it. Also, some

people do very well on the ADA plan and others do well on other

kinds of plans. Diabetes and the eating plans are not a one

size fits all. Let's pls respect that. And that's also why

Eunice our owner says that each person must work things out with

their dr to figure out what works best for them.

Also, even if Dr. Bernstein didn't come up with the process for

starting home monitoring of BGs someone else would have gotten

involved. He was just the first step in the process and then

others built on it.

Daughter of Type 2 Insulin Dependent Diabetic,

Kristy

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Jay,

We would like to see the quote pls even though you don't feel

like researching it.

I want to see it b/c now I'm curious about it. Also, some

people do very well on the ADA plan and others do well on other

kinds of plans. Diabetes and the eating plans are not a one

size fits all. Let's pls respect that. And that's also why

Eunice our owner says that each person must work things out with

their dr to figure out what works best for them.

Also, even if Dr. Bernstein didn't come up with the process for

starting home monitoring of BGs someone else would have gotten

involved. He was just the first step in the process and then

others built on it.

Daughter of Type 2 Insulin Dependent Diabetic,

Kristy

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Jay,

We would like to see the quote pls even though you don't feel

like researching it.

I want to see it b/c now I'm curious about it. Also, some

people do very well on the ADA plan and others do well on other

kinds of plans. Diabetes and the eating plans are not a one

size fits all. Let's pls respect that. And that's also why

Eunice our owner says that each person must work things out with

their dr to figure out what works best for them.

Also, even if Dr. Bernstein didn't come up with the process for

starting home monitoring of BGs someone else would have gotten

involved. He was just the first step in the process and then

others built on it.

Daughter of Type 2 Insulin Dependent Diabetic,

Kristy

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristy:

<<Also, some people do very well on the ADA plan and others do well on other

kinds of plans. Diabetes and the eating plans are not a one size fits all.

Let's pls respect that. And that's also why Eunice our owner says that each

person must work things out with their dr to figure out what works best for

them.>>

That's what I said. I was very clear about that.

My previous comments in that regard:

" And that gets me back to the original point from the original poster which is:

What is a balanced diet? For me, it's whatever works for the individual.

Doctors and dieticians are so out of it for what is " good " for you that it will

take decades for us to find our way. And number one in that direction is - each

one of us is unique. Each one reacts differently to what we ingest. As I

posted a few weeks ago, my BS went to 196 after eating one plain (no milk, no

sugar, just a little salt) bowl of steel cut oatmeal. After eating two very

large bowls of good ice cream, it only went to 181. When I follow the VM diet

plan I rarely exceed 120 and am generally in the 90 - 110 range. Someone on

list pointed out that they eat oatmeal and it doesn't raise their BS at all.

So, when someone wants to start a discussion as to whether a high carbohydrate

diet is better than a high protein diet, what works for one does not work for

another. "

That said, Virginia Mason - Seattle, instructs ALL of their diabetic patients

(many thousands) to ingest no more that 15 carbohydrates per meal/45 per day.

They have come up with an umbrella of one size fits all. Within that umbrella

they recognize that individual foods can have different effects on individuals.

They have a diabetes research center (Benaroya) that has been in operation since

1923 and tracks all their patients along with doing an immense amount of new

research. I will take research like that any day over the opinion of a single

MD any day. Besides, it worked for 19 of the 20 students in the classes that I

took from them for both weight loss and humongous BS level reduction. (The one

it didn't work for didn't stick with the program.) I can and I will chastise

the ADA and any physician for not recognizing research and results of this

magnitude - and Bernstein fits within the limited carbohydrate group.

Ultimately each person is responsible for their own medical care and direction

and I simply do not understand many people's tolerance with doctors who are at

times over prescribing or are not getting results.

I have an essential part of my anatomy because I refused to follow a physicians

advice for cancer surgery (15 years ago) and I no longer have cancer. I

basically told a cardiologist to stuff it when he tried to fill my reality with

prescriptions and I wanted to go a non-prescription route, and I have been

successful in my own approach to treatment for the conditions he was trying to

adjust (non-diabetic). I have refused prescription medication over and over and

changed doctors many times until I find one that is willing to be my advisor

instead of trying to get me to operate like his own personal robot. No where on

this list or on a personal basis will I question what a doctor prescribes in

drugs or lifestyle, but I will question the results, particularly if other

medical protocols are getting results.

<<Also, even if Dr. Bernstein didn't come up with the process for

starting home monitoring of BGs someone else would have gotten

involved. He was just the first step in the process and then

others built on it.>>

That is simply not true. Bernstein fought and fought the medical profession to

accept the results of his home testing and his findings - the two go hand in

had. (He's still fighting many of them.) It took him several years to get them

to accept home testing and there is no way that it would ever have happened

without the bulldog attitude that he had. How many people would begin medical

school at age 45 just to try and get the AMA to listen to them? Not very many.

He IS responsible for home testing. Home testing is very new.

To discuss high carbo vs. high protein when your mind is made up before you

start makes utterly no sense whatsoever. What makes sense is, what has worked

for you. Your first point, and one that I've made before.

Jay

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristy:

<<Also, some people do very well on the ADA plan and others do well on other

kinds of plans. Diabetes and the eating plans are not a one size fits all.

Let's pls respect that. And that's also why Eunice our owner says that each

person must work things out with their dr to figure out what works best for

them.>>

That's what I said. I was very clear about that.

My previous comments in that regard:

" And that gets me back to the original point from the original poster which is:

What is a balanced diet? For me, it's whatever works for the individual.

Doctors and dieticians are so out of it for what is " good " for you that it will

take decades for us to find our way. And number one in that direction is - each

one of us is unique. Each one reacts differently to what we ingest. As I

posted a few weeks ago, my BS went to 196 after eating one plain (no milk, no

sugar, just a little salt) bowl of steel cut oatmeal. After eating two very

large bowls of good ice cream, it only went to 181. When I follow the VM diet

plan I rarely exceed 120 and am generally in the 90 - 110 range. Someone on

list pointed out that they eat oatmeal and it doesn't raise their BS at all.

So, when someone wants to start a discussion as to whether a high carbohydrate

diet is better than a high protein diet, what works for one does not work for

another. "

That said, Virginia Mason - Seattle, instructs ALL of their diabetic patients

(many thousands) to ingest no more that 15 carbohydrates per meal/45 per day.

They have come up with an umbrella of one size fits all. Within that umbrella

they recognize that individual foods can have different effects on individuals.

They have a diabetes research center (Benaroya) that has been in operation since

1923 and tracks all their patients along with doing an immense amount of new

research. I will take research like that any day over the opinion of a single

MD any day. Besides, it worked for 19 of the 20 students in the classes that I

took from them for both weight loss and humongous BS level reduction. (The one

it didn't work for didn't stick with the program.) I can and I will chastise

the ADA and any physician for not recognizing research and results of this

magnitude - and Bernstein fits within the limited carbohydrate group.

Ultimately each person is responsible for their own medical care and direction

and I simply do not understand many people's tolerance with doctors who are at

times over prescribing or are not getting results.

I have an essential part of my anatomy because I refused to follow a physicians

advice for cancer surgery (15 years ago) and I no longer have cancer. I

basically told a cardiologist to stuff it when he tried to fill my reality with

prescriptions and I wanted to go a non-prescription route, and I have been

successful in my own approach to treatment for the conditions he was trying to

adjust (non-diabetic). I have refused prescription medication over and over and

changed doctors many times until I find one that is willing to be my advisor

instead of trying to get me to operate like his own personal robot. No where on

this list or on a personal basis will I question what a doctor prescribes in

drugs or lifestyle, but I will question the results, particularly if other

medical protocols are getting results.

<<Also, even if Dr. Bernstein didn't come up with the process for

starting home monitoring of BGs someone else would have gotten

involved. He was just the first step in the process and then

others built on it.>>

That is simply not true. Bernstein fought and fought the medical profession to

accept the results of his home testing and his findings - the two go hand in

had. (He's still fighting many of them.) It took him several years to get them

to accept home testing and there is no way that it would ever have happened

without the bulldog attitude that he had. How many people would begin medical

school at age 45 just to try and get the AMA to listen to them? Not very many.

He IS responsible for home testing. Home testing is very new.

To discuss high carbo vs. high protein when your mind is made up before you

start makes utterly no sense whatsoever. What makes sense is, what has worked

for you. Your first point, and one that I've made before.

Jay

[Guest guest]

That just about sums it all up. It's a fine line between diet, weight and

exercise and some of us achieve it better than others.

Take care. Barry UK

Re: Hypothetical question/discussion...

> But it is all a balancing act.

>

> Jan

[Guest guest]

That just about sums it all up. It's a fine line between diet, weight and

exercise and some of us achieve it better than others.

Take care. Barry UK

Re: Hypothetical question/discussion...

> But it is all a balancing act.

>

> Jan

[Guest guest]

That just about sums it all up. It's a fine line between diet, weight and

exercise and some of us achieve it better than others.

Take care. Barry UK

Re: Hypothetical question/discussion...

> But it is all a balancing act.

>

> Jan