Re: So how long does it take?

[Guest guest]

Becky:

Stay here. Avoid anyone in aa. Read Ken Ragge's book. And you'll be okay.

Post as often as you need to. Stay in touch. It will be okay. I promise. It

really will.

Jan

In a message dated 9/8/01 11:49:44 PM Central Standard Time, cat2634@...

writes:

<< AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending all

those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week and still keep

picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor) and

I have to force the phone out of my hand and I can't get those damned

cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed' book

out of my head. I even took the recommendation from my friends at

work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol. Nine

months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the love

of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it. If ETOH is still going

to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked away

and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE GONE.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Becky >>

[Guest guest]

Becky:

This guy knows what he's talking about. Just do things you enjoy in the

evenings. And check out his links in bookmarks. Hang in there. You're

probably better off than you know. At least you realize aa is bullshit. If

you need help with other issues than alcoholism, I believe there are people

here who can offer their experience strength and hope. You don't need aa,

unless you need to be convinced you are a pile of shit. I was in the

" program " for twenty years and it never felt right to me, but I was told it

was aa or die. That is not true. I am currently researching addiction and I

will be posting what I learn. If you need someone to talk to, post me

offline, and I will give you my home phone and cell phone. All I can do is

help you realize you're okay. I will not press my beliefs on you, other than

I think aa is damaging. Please take care. You sound so distressed. Please

be okay.

Jan

In a message dated 9/9/01 12:40:06 AM Central Standard Time,

dmarcoot@... writes:

<< when i was in AA, i recall at 11 months telling one of the " elders " that

sobriety didnt seem

to be what i thougth it would be (based upon all the bs they were feeding me

in aa about

" promises & miracles and god working in mysterious ways " ) he said " when you

came in

here all you wanted was to stop hurting " . he wqs right, but he said it in a

patronizing tone

(do they have any other one?) to suggest i should sit down and shut up and

stop

questioning the program.

but it backfired becuase he was right , thats all i did want, i hadnt been

hurting in along

time so why was staying someplace i didnt like? i realized soon after that

no one in AA

had cared about my well being if it wasnt tied to thier group, i left and i

never looked

back.

and it sure was nice spending my evenings in the way i thought was best for

me, not what

bill wilson thought would be.

just stop going and leaning on AA gurus when you probably know yourself what

is best

for you. it s a matter of incorporating that into your life. you can leave

and there is no

need to announce your intentions to anyone ( i recommend agianst it, they

will just try to

convince you that you will die outside or you'll be back on your knees) >>

[Guest guest]

Becky:

This guy knows what he's talking about. Just do things you enjoy in the

evenings. And check out his links in bookmarks. Hang in there. You're

probably better off than you know. At least you realize aa is bullshit. If

you need help with other issues than alcoholism, I believe there are people

here who can offer their experience strength and hope. You don't need aa,

unless you need to be convinced you are a pile of shit. I was in the

" program " for twenty years and it never felt right to me, but I was told it

was aa or die. That is not true. I am currently researching addiction and I

will be posting what I learn. If you need someone to talk to, post me

offline, and I will give you my home phone and cell phone. All I can do is

help you realize you're okay. I will not press my beliefs on you, other than

I think aa is damaging. Please take care. You sound so distressed. Please

be okay.

Jan

In a message dated 9/9/01 12:40:06 AM Central Standard Time,

dmarcoot@... writes:

<< when i was in AA, i recall at 11 months telling one of the " elders " that

sobriety didnt seem

to be what i thougth it would be (based upon all the bs they were feeding me

in aa about

" promises & miracles and god working in mysterious ways " ) he said " when you

came in

here all you wanted was to stop hurting " . he wqs right, but he said it in a

patronizing tone

(do they have any other one?) to suggest i should sit down and shut up and

stop

questioning the program.

but it backfired becuase he was right , thats all i did want, i hadnt been

hurting in along

time so why was staying someplace i didnt like? i realized soon after that

no one in AA

had cared about my well being if it wasnt tied to thier group, i left and i

never looked

back.

and it sure was nice spending my evenings in the way i thought was best for

me, not what

bill wilson thought would be.

just stop going and leaning on AA gurus when you probably know yourself what

is best

for you. it s a matter of incorporating that into your life. you can leave

and there is no

need to announce your intentions to anyone ( i recommend agianst it, they

will just try to

convince you that you will die outside or you'll be back on your knees) >>

[Guest guest]

when i was in AA, i recall at 11 months telling one of the " elders " that

sobriety didnt seem

to be what i thougth it would be (based upon all the bs they were feeding me in

aa about

" promises & miracles and god working in mysterious ways " ) he said " when you came

in

here all you wanted was to stop hurting " . he wqs right, but he said it in a

patronizing tone

(do they have any other one?) to suggest i should sit down and shut up and stop

questioning the program.

but it backfired becuase he was right , thats all i did want, i hadnt been

hurting in along

time so why was staying someplace i didnt like? i realized soon after that no

one in AA

had cared about my well being if it wasnt tied to thier group, i left and i

never looked

back.

and it sure was nice spending my evenings in the way i thought was best for me,

not what

bill wilson thought would be.

just stop going and leaning on AA gurus when you probably know yourself what is

best

for you. it s a matter of incorporating that into your life. you can leave and

there is no

need to announce your intentions to anyone ( i recommend agianst it, they will

just try to

convince you that you will die outside or you'll be back on your knees)

> AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

> minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

> of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending all

> those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week and still keep

> picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor) and

> I have to force the phone out of my hand and I can't get those damned

> cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed' book

> out of my head. I even took the recommendation from my friends at

> work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

>

> All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol. Nine

> months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the love

> of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it. If ETOH is still going

> to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked away

> and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE GONE.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent.

>

> Becky

[Guest guest]

> > AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> > How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

> > minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

> > of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending

all

> > those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week and still

keep

> > picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor)

and

> > I have to force the phone out of my hand and I can't get those

damned

> > cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed'

book

> > out of my head. I even took the recommendation from my friends

at

> > work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

> >

> > All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol.

Nine

> > months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the

love

> > of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it. If ETOH is still

going

> > to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked

away

> > and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE

GONE.

> >

> > Thanks for letting me vent.

> >

> > Becky

[Guest guest]

> > AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> > How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

> > minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

> > of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending

all

> > those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week and still

keep

> > picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor)

and

> > I have to force the phone out of my hand and I can't get those

damned

> > cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed'

book

> > out of my head. I even took the recommendation from my friends

at

> > work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

> >

> > All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol.

Nine

> > months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the

love

> > of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it. If ETOH is still

going

> > to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked

away

> > and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE

GONE.

> >

> > Thanks for letting me vent.

> >

> > Becky

[Guest guest]

At 05:48 AM 9/9/01 +0000, you wrote:

>AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

>minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

>of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending all

>those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week

A week isn't very long. Give yourself more time.

>and still keep

>picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor) and

>I have to force the phone out of my hand

But you did it. And it'll get easier with time.

>and I can't get those damned

>cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed' book

>out of my head.

So learn to laugh at them! Are there particular slogans which are

stuck in your head? We can help you come up with snappy

responses.

>I even took the recommendation from my friends at

>work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

Heh, that's not uncommon among people who first leave AA.

AA says " Don't drink at all, " so the easiest way to distinguish

yourself from the zombies is to drink a lot. It's not recommended

as a long-term approach :-), but it's pretty normal when you

first leave.

>All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol. Nine

>months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the love

>of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it.

Yes indeedy, that is part of life as a 12-stepper. Your " disease "

is supposed to be the focus of everything you think and do.

Congratulations on seeing through this.

> If ETOH is still going

>to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked away

>and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE GONE.

AA was a big, albeit toxic, part of your life for a long time. It probably

isn't going to get out of your head overnight. When you remove a

big time-consuming thing from your life, you're going to feel a gap

there and a tug back to the old AA habit.

It can help to look for something else to fill not only your time but

the space in your head. You mentioned that you have some friends

at work. How about seeing one or two of them outside of work?

Do you have a hobby you neglected while in the AA cult? Do you

like to read, knit, play volleyball, etc? This would be a great time

to go back to some of the things from which AA separated you.

When you join AA, you are expected to replace an old drinking

obsession with an AA obsession. Neither of these things is conducive

to being a healthy well-adjusted human being. Now it's time to

find a better way to spend your life, which will help you progress

towards your goals instead of running around in panicky circles

with dire stepper threats filling your brain.

Again, congrats on leaving the cult. It takes guts to do that, and

it takes guts to stay away during that first difficult week or two.

But you're well on your way towards becoming a real person instead

of a " recovering alcoholic. " Doesn't it feel great?

[Guest guest]

At 05:48 AM 9/9/01 +0000, you wrote:

>AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

>minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

>of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending all

>those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week

A week isn't very long. Give yourself more time.

>and still keep

>picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor) and

>I have to force the phone out of my hand

But you did it. And it'll get easier with time.

>and I can't get those damned

>cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed' book

>out of my head.

So learn to laugh at them! Are there particular slogans which are

stuck in your head? We can help you come up with snappy

responses.

>I even took the recommendation from my friends at

>work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

Heh, that's not uncommon among people who first leave AA.

AA says " Don't drink at all, " so the easiest way to distinguish

yourself from the zombies is to drink a lot. It's not recommended

as a long-term approach :-), but it's pretty normal when you

first leave.

>All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol. Nine

>months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the love

>of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it.

Yes indeedy, that is part of life as a 12-stepper. Your " disease "

is supposed to be the focus of everything you think and do.

Congratulations on seeing through this.

> If ETOH is still going

>to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked away

>and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE GONE.

AA was a big, albeit toxic, part of your life for a long time. It probably

isn't going to get out of your head overnight. When you remove a

big time-consuming thing from your life, you're going to feel a gap

there and a tug back to the old AA habit.

It can help to look for something else to fill not only your time but

the space in your head. You mentioned that you have some friends

at work. How about seeing one or two of them outside of work?

Do you have a hobby you neglected while in the AA cult? Do you

like to read, knit, play volleyball, etc? This would be a great time

to go back to some of the things from which AA separated you.

When you join AA, you are expected to replace an old drinking

obsession with an AA obsession. Neither of these things is conducive

to being a healthy well-adjusted human being. Now it's time to

find a better way to spend your life, which will help you progress

towards your goals instead of running around in panicky circles

with dire stepper threats filling your brain.

Again, congrats on leaving the cult. It takes guts to do that, and

it takes guts to stay away during that first difficult week or two.

But you're well on your way towards becoming a real person instead

of a " recovering alcoholic. " Doesn't it feel great?

[Guest guest]

> ... that evening the light bulbs started coming on and

> the scales started falling off my eyes. Of AA is a cult. I knew

> that. Why did I let this people have so much control over me?

> Because they seemed to have it together? Because they were nice to

> me when I felt lost? Why did I turn my soul over to these people?

> Why did I lose sleep and even work overtime to sit and listen to the

> same motley crew of miserable people that whined constantly and ended

> it with'but i didn't get drunk'.

>

----------------

Hi Becky --

Please don't beat yourself up for having got sucked into the AA black hole.

You were vulnerable, and wanted to stop drinking destructively, and did what

everyone is told they " ought " to do to stop drinking -- you went to AA. Once

there, you did what is expected of AA members -- to devote your entire life to

the cult.

Yes, it's a cult -- yes, the ideology is both irrational and harmful to

many people, though many do stop drinking while members of the cult. But now

it's time to be PROUD of yourself for recognizing the BS, and for regaining your

critical thinking skills. Instead of beating yourself up, why not learn more

about the history of AA, and read up on all manners of things related to

" addiction " and " recovery " -- and question the concepts of " addiction " and

" alcoholism " themselves. You are not drinking destructively any more, right? --

and need not ever do so again -- so you do NOT need to label yourself as

" alcoholic " or spend the rest of your life " struggling " to remain what you are

-- namely, a person who does not drink. This kind of understanding of yourself

is the best way to leave AA and never feel an urge to return.

Welcome to 12-Step-Free,and I look forward to more of your posts.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

> ... that evening the light bulbs started coming on and

> the scales started falling off my eyes. Of AA is a cult. I knew

> that. Why did I let this people have so much control over me?

> Because they seemed to have it together? Because they were nice to

> me when I felt lost? Why did I turn my soul over to these people?

> Why did I lose sleep and even work overtime to sit and listen to the

> same motley crew of miserable people that whined constantly and ended

> it with'but i didn't get drunk'.

>

----------------

Hi Becky --

Please don't beat yourself up for having got sucked into the AA black hole.

You were vulnerable, and wanted to stop drinking destructively, and did what

everyone is told they " ought " to do to stop drinking -- you went to AA. Once

there, you did what is expected of AA members -- to devote your entire life to

the cult.

Yes, it's a cult -- yes, the ideology is both irrational and harmful to

many people, though many do stop drinking while members of the cult. But now

it's time to be PROUD of yourself for recognizing the BS, and for regaining your

critical thinking skills. Instead of beating yourself up, why not learn more

about the history of AA, and read up on all manners of things related to

" addiction " and " recovery " -- and question the concepts of " addiction " and

" alcoholism " themselves. You are not drinking destructively any more, right? --

and need not ever do so again -- so you do NOT need to label yourself as

" alcoholic " or spend the rest of your life " struggling " to remain what you are

-- namely, a person who does not drink. This kind of understanding of yourself

is the best way to leave AA and never feel an urge to return.

Welcome to 12-Step-Free,and I look forward to more of your posts.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

I drifted away from AA, just went less and less and then didn't go any more at

all. It

was a gradual break rather than a sudden leaving.

I'd been in for some 12 years or so, and I'd been a " good " stepper until I

became

disillusioned and began to drift away.

It took several *years* to get cleaned out. I didn't want to be around

steppers. I felt

nervous and uncomfortable around the very people I'd used to hang out with. I

felt

considerable stress and anxiety when I'd hear people talking about going to

12-step

programs, or about " codependency " or " ACOA " . It took time, time, time before I

finally

stopped knee-jerking and processing, processing, thinking about how I felt as if

I were

running away from a cult. I kept turning it over and over in my mind, the

cult-like

things and the destructive things presented as " helpful " . It took, as I said,

several

years to finally be able to forget about it.

The most useful thing for me, and I'd suspect for others, is to get busy and

involved in

the world with other things. Meet other people, do other things, have other

activities,

have other interests. Keep staying away and turning one's attention to nice,

interesting

things.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

I drifted away from AA, just went less and less and then didn't go any more at

all. It

was a gradual break rather than a sudden leaving.

I'd been in for some 12 years or so, and I'd been a " good " stepper until I

became

disillusioned and began to drift away.

It took several *years* to get cleaned out. I didn't want to be around

steppers. I felt

nervous and uncomfortable around the very people I'd used to hang out with. I

felt

considerable stress and anxiety when I'd hear people talking about going to

12-step

programs, or about " codependency " or " ACOA " . It took time, time, time before I

finally

stopped knee-jerking and processing, processing, thinking about how I felt as if

I were

running away from a cult. I kept turning it over and over in my mind, the

cult-like

things and the destructive things presented as " helpful " . It took, as I said,

several

years to finally be able to forget about it.

The most useful thing for me, and I'd suspect for others, is to get busy and

involved in

the world with other things. Meet other people, do other things, have other

activities,

have other interests. Keep staying away and turning one's attention to nice,

interesting

things.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

> >AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> >How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

> >minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

> >of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending

all

> >those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week

>

> A week isn't very long. Give yourself more time.

>

> >and still keep

> >picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor)

and

> >I have to force the phone out of my hand

>

> But you did it. And it'll get easier with time.

>

> >and I can't get those damned

> >cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed' book

> >out of my head.

>

> So learn to laugh at them! Are there particular slogans which are

> stuck in your head? We can help you come up with snappy

> responses.

>

> >I even took the recommendation from my friends at

> >work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

>

> Heh, that's not uncommon among people who first leave AA.

> AA says " Don't drink at all, " so the easiest way to distinguish

> yourself from the zombies is to drink a lot. It's not recommended

> as a long-term approach :-), but it's pretty normal when you

> first leave.

>

> >All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol. Nine

> >months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the

love

> >of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it.

>

> Yes indeedy, that is part of life as a 12-stepper. Your " disease "

> is supposed to be the focus of everything you think and do.

> Congratulations on seeing through this.

>

> > If ETOH is still going

> >to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked

away

> >and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE

GONE.

>

> AA was a big, albeit toxic, part of your life for a long time. It

probably

> isn't going to get out of your head overnight. When you remove a

> big time-consuming thing from your life, you're going to feel a gap

> there and a tug back to the old AA habit.

>

> It can help to look for something else to fill not only your time

but

> the space in your head. You mentioned that you have some friends

> at work. How about seeing one or two of them outside of work?

>

> Do you have a hobby you neglected while in the AA cult? Do you

> like to read, knit, play volleyball, etc? This would be a great

time

> to go back to some of the things from which AA separated you.

>

> When you join AA, you are expected to replace an old drinking

> obsession with an AA obsession. Neither of these things is

conducive

> to being a healthy well-adjusted human being. Now it's time to

> find a better way to spend your life, which will help you progress

> towards your goals instead of running around in panicky circles

> with dire stepper threats filling your brain.

>

> Again, congrats on leaving the cult. It takes guts to do that, and

> it takes guts to stay away during that first difficult week or two.

> But you're well on your way towards becoming a real person instead

> of a " recovering alcoholic. " Doesn't it feel great?

>

>

Yes it does and thank you.becky

[Guest guest]

> >AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> >How long does it take for 9 months of intense literature study, a

> >minimum of 1 meeting (and up to 4) a day, countless hours

> >of 'sticking with the winners' and lack of sleep (from attending

all

> >those meetings) TO GO AWAY?????????? It's been a week

>

> A week isn't very long. Give yourself more time.

>

> >and still keep

> >picking up the phone to call my psychobabble expert (ie sponsor)

and

> >I have to force the phone out of my hand

>

> But you did it. And it'll get easier with time.

>

> >and I can't get those damned

> >cliches and much repeated lines from that 'divinely revealed' book

> >out of my head.

>

> So learn to laugh at them! Are there particular slogans which are

> stuck in your head? We can help you come up with snappy

> responses.

>

> >I even took the recommendation from my friends at

> >work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

>

> Heh, that's not uncommon among people who first leave AA.

> AA says " Don't drink at all, " so the easiest way to distinguish

> yourself from the zombies is to drink a lot. It's not recommended

> as a long-term approach :-), but it's pretty normal when you

> first leave.

>

> >All I wanted was a life that did not revolve around alcohol. Nine

> >months later, it still does but instead of revolving around the

love

> >of ETOH, it revolves around the fear of it.

>

> Yes indeedy, that is part of life as a 12-stepper. Your " disease "

> is supposed to be the focus of everything you think and do.

> Congratulations on seeing through this.

>

> > If ETOH is still going

> >to run my life, I might as well be drunk. Which is why I walked

away

> >and just want the shit that I let them implant in my head TO BE

GONE.

>

> AA was a big, albeit toxic, part of your life for a long time. It

probably

> isn't going to get out of your head overnight. When you remove a

> big time-consuming thing from your life, you're going to feel a gap

> there and a tug back to the old AA habit.

>

> It can help to look for something else to fill not only your time

but

> the space in your head. You mentioned that you have some friends

> at work. How about seeing one or two of them outside of work?

>

> Do you have a hobby you neglected while in the AA cult? Do you

> like to read, knit, play volleyball, etc? This would be a great

time

> to go back to some of the things from which AA separated you.

>

> When you join AA, you are expected to replace an old drinking

> obsession with an AA obsession. Neither of these things is

conducive

> to being a healthy well-adjusted human being. Now it's time to

> find a better way to spend your life, which will help you progress

> towards your goals instead of running around in panicky circles

> with dire stepper threats filling your brain.

>

> Again, congrats on leaving the cult. It takes guts to do that, and

> it takes guts to stay away during that first difficult week or two.

> But you're well on your way towards becoming a real person instead

> of a " recovering alcoholic. " Doesn't it feel great?

>

>

Yes it does and thank you.becky

[Guest guest]

> Thanks Rita. becky

> > ... that evening the light bulbs started coming on and

> > the scales started falling off my eyes. Of AA is a cult. I knew

> > that. Why did I let this people have so much control over me?

> > Because they seemed to have it together? Because they were nice

to

> > me when I felt lost? Why did I turn my soul over to these

people?

> > Why did I lose sleep and even work overtime to sit and listen to

the

> > same motley crew of miserable people that whined constantly and

ended

> > it with'but i didn't get drunk'.

> >

> ----------------

>

> Hi Becky --

>

> Please don't beat yourself up for having got sucked into the

AA black hole. You were vulnerable, and wanted to stop drinking

destructively, and did what everyone is told they " ought " to do to

stop drinking -- you went to AA. Once there, you did what is

expected of AA members -- to devote your entire life to the cult.

>

> Yes, it's a cult -- yes, the ideology is both irrational and

harmful to many people, though many do stop drinking while members of

the cult. But now it's time to be PROUD of yourself for recognizing

the BS, and for regaining your critical thinking skills. Instead of

beating yourself up, why not learn more about the history of AA, and

read up on all manners of things related to " addiction "

and " recovery " -- and question the concepts of " addiction "

and " alcoholism " themselves. You are not drinking destructively any

more, right? -- and need not ever do so again -- so you do NOT need

to label yourself as " alcoholic " or spend the rest of your

life " struggling " to remain what you are -- namely, a person who does

not drink. This kind of understanding of yourself is the best way to

leave AA and never feel an urge to return.

>

> Welcome to 12-Step-Free,and I look forward to more of your

posts.

>

> ~Rita

[Guest guest]

> Thanks Rita. becky

> > ... that evening the light bulbs started coming on and

> > the scales started falling off my eyes. Of AA is a cult. I knew

> > that. Why did I let this people have so much control over me?

> > Because they seemed to have it together? Because they were nice

to

> > me when I felt lost? Why did I turn my soul over to these

people?

> > Why did I lose sleep and even work overtime to sit and listen to

the

> > same motley crew of miserable people that whined constantly and

ended

> > it with'but i didn't get drunk'.

> >

> ----------------

>

> Hi Becky --

>

> Please don't beat yourself up for having got sucked into the

AA black hole. You were vulnerable, and wanted to stop drinking

destructively, and did what everyone is told they " ought " to do to

stop drinking -- you went to AA. Once there, you did what is

expected of AA members -- to devote your entire life to the cult.

>

> Yes, it's a cult -- yes, the ideology is both irrational and

harmful to many people, though many do stop drinking while members of

the cult. But now it's time to be PROUD of yourself for recognizing

the BS, and for regaining your critical thinking skills. Instead of

beating yourself up, why not learn more about the history of AA, and

read up on all manners of things related to " addiction "

and " recovery " -- and question the concepts of " addiction "

and " alcoholism " themselves. You are not drinking destructively any

more, right? -- and need not ever do so again -- so you do NOT need

to label yourself as " alcoholic " or spend the rest of your

life " struggling " to remain what you are -- namely, a person who does

not drink. This kind of understanding of yourself is the best way to

leave AA and never feel an urge to return.

>

> Welcome to 12-Step-Free,and I look forward to more of your

posts.

>

> ~Rita

[Guest guest]

> Thank you . becky

I drifted away from AA, just went less and less and then didn't go

any more at all. It

> was a gradual break rather than a sudden leaving.

>

> I'd been in for some 12 years or so, and I'd been a " good " stepper

until I became

> disillusioned and began to drift away.

>

> It took several *years* to get cleaned out. I didn't want to be

around steppers. I felt

> nervous and uncomfortable around the very people I'd used to hang

out with. I felt

> considerable stress and anxiety when I'd hear people talking about

going to 12-step

> programs, or about " codependency " or " ACOA " . It took time, time,

time before I finally

> stopped knee-jerking and processing, processing, thinking about how

I felt as if I were

> running away from a cult. I kept turning it over and over in my

mind, the cult-like

> things and the destructive things presented as " helpful " . It took,

as I said, several

> years to finally be able to forget about it.

>

> The most useful thing for me, and I'd suspect for others, is to get

busy and involved in

> the world with other things. Meet other people, do other things,

have other activities,

> have other interests. Keep staying away and turning one's

attention to nice, interesting

> things.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

[Guest guest]

> Thank you . becky

I drifted away from AA, just went less and less and then didn't go

any more at all. It

> was a gradual break rather than a sudden leaving.

>

> I'd been in for some 12 years or so, and I'd been a " good " stepper

until I became

> disillusioned and began to drift away.

>

> It took several *years* to get cleaned out. I didn't want to be

around steppers. I felt

> nervous and uncomfortable around the very people I'd used to hang

out with. I felt

> considerable stress and anxiety when I'd hear people talking about

going to 12-step

> programs, or about " codependency " or " ACOA " . It took time, time,

time before I finally

> stopped knee-jerking and processing, processing, thinking about how

I felt as if I were

> running away from a cult. I kept turning it over and over in my

mind, the cult-like

> things and the destructive things presented as " helpful " . It took,

as I said, several

> years to finally be able to forget about it.

>

> The most useful thing for me, and I'd suspect for others, is to get

busy and involved in

> the world with other things. Meet other people, do other things,

have other activities,

> have other interests. Keep staying away and turning one's

attention to nice, interesting

> things.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

[Guest guest]

> So learn to laugh at them! Are there particular slogans which are

> stuck in your head? We can help you come up with snappy

> responses.

Hi and Becky,

Have the come backs that gave, for the slogans

that where troubesome for me on the refrig. Has helped much.

>

> >I even took the recommendation from my friends at

> >work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

>

> Heh, that's not uncommon among people who first leave AA.

> AA says " Don't drink at all, " so the easiest way to distinguish

> yourself from the zombies is to drink a lot. It's not recommended

> as a long-term approach :-), but it's pretty normal when you

> first leave.

>

This is good to read. When I left I was literally nuts.

Had a shrink that wanted me to eat haldol, but refused,

(afraid it would start everything up again-using).

Probably should of taken it for awhile, but didn't.

Could not make decisions. Mind was very twisted.

Also swore I would get through my husbands death clean.

And now I had to sort this 'cult' shit out. I was more

lost now, then when I first started this aa adventure.

Was afraid to go certain places, liquor store(use to buy

my smokes there,cheaper, but couldn't even to that any-

more. I thought this is f***ed. I should be able to go

anywhere - but was terrified. So decided to get tough,

and face this shit. Went to the least busiest liquor

store in town, looking over my shoulder constantly,

trying to keep the f**k them attitude. Got my smokes,

my baby beers and some wine. Just because I could. Had

already read Ken's book-but I wanted to prove it to myself.

Did good. Wine is still in my room. The beers where

cool on the hottest days this summer. But, also had to

check out the bar scene,didn't do so good. Got wasted

twice. Had a babysitter with, so kinda planned it. I'm

not a bar person so I stay out of em-no problem. If

they had opiate bars on every corner not so sure I'd

been ok. Now, I'm not even worried about that. Been

away from the harder stuff a few yrs. Don't even plant

poppies anymore-they sure are pretty though. I believed

I was an addict then-not anymore-am becoming a normie.

Didn't want to talk about this stuff till now. Was to

worried what other people would think. But now that

isn't as important as to what i think. And I am no

longer a junkie. I fuckin made it. And lots of you on

this list helped - thanks. tears.

netty

[Guest guest]

--- cat2634@... wrote:

>

> On this past Monday, I was home enjoying

> post-holiday meal nap and

> was called by several members DEMANDING to know why

> I had turned in

> my keys and resigned service positions. I was

> half-asleep and very

> cross as I explained that I would not be attending

> AA at that club

> anymore. One accused me of being drunk. I told my

> mother what

> happened and she was shocked. I have been running

> off adrenaline,

> caffiene and nicotine for 8.5 months. When I am not

> at work, I am

> doing AA or AA-related things even at home. I

> decide to leave a

> meeting place where apparently the most socially

> unacceptable people

> attend and take a long weekend away and this

> supposedly sane '4 yr

> winner' accuses me of being drunk because I decide

> to have a life for

> a few days and then seek better adjusted people.

>

> Of course, through that evening the light bulbs

> started coming on and

> the scales started falling off my eyes. Of AA is a

> cult. I knew

> that. Why did I let this people have so much

> control over me?

> Because they seemed to have it together? Because

> they were nice to

> me when I felt lost? Why did I turn my soul over to

> these people?

> Why did I lose sleep and even work overtime to sit

> and listen to the

> same motley crew of miserable people that whined

> constantly and ended

> it with'but i didn't get drunk'.

>

> Sorry this has run far over. I am tired, drained

> and I haven't

> really been able to vent this out totally. Please

> bear with me.

>

> Thanks. Becky

>

Don't appologize. I like to hear that stuff.

The whole phenomenon of how they can feed us

such bull and get away with it is fascinating to

me, when you come right down to it.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

> >Thanks Netty. becky

So learn to laugh at them! Are there particular slogans which are

> > stuck in your head? We can help you come up with snappy

> > responses.

>

>

> Hi and Becky,

> Have the come backs that gave, for the slogans

> that where troubesome for me on the refrig. Has helped much.

>

> >

> > >I even took the recommendation from my friends at

> > >work and got drunk which at least helped for a little while.

> >

> > Heh, that's not uncommon among people who first leave AA.

> > AA says " Don't drink at all, " so the easiest way to distinguish

> > yourself from the zombies is to drink a lot. It's not recommended

> > as a long-term approach :-), but it's pretty normal when you

> > first leave.

> >

>

> This is good to read. When I left I was literally nuts.

> Had a shrink that wanted me to eat haldol, but refused,

> (afraid it would start everything up again-using).

> Probably should of taken it for awhile, but didn't.

> Could not make decisions. Mind was very twisted.

> Also swore I would get through my husbands death clean.

> And now I had to sort this 'cult' shit out. I was more

> lost now, then when I first started this aa adventure.

> Was afraid to go certain places, liquor store(use to buy

> my smokes there,cheaper, but couldn't even to that any-

> more. I thought this is f***ed. I should be able to go

> anywhere - but was terrified. So decided to get tough,

> and face this shit. Went to the least busiest liquor

> store in town, looking over my shoulder constantly,

> trying to keep the f**k them attitude. Got my smokes,

> my baby beers and some wine. Just because I could. Had

> already read Ken's book-but I wanted to prove it to

myself.

> Did good. Wine is still in my room. The beers where

> cool on the hottest days this summer. But, also had to

> check out the bar scene,didn't do so good. Got wasted

> twice. Had a babysitter with, so kinda planned it. I'm

> not a bar person so I stay out of em-no problem. If

> they had opiate bars on every corner not so sure I'd

> been ok. Now, I'm not even worried about that. Been

> away from the harder stuff a few yrs. Don't even plant

> poppies anymore-they sure are pretty though. I believed

> I was an addict then-not anymore-am becoming a normie.

> Didn't want to talk about this stuff till now. Was to

> worried what other people would think. But now that

> isn't as important as to what i think. And I am no

> longer a junkie. I fuckin made it. And lots of you on

> this list helped - thanks. tears.

> netty

[Guest guest]

Hi Becky and folks generally,

Can you try to post simple thankyous direct to the person? It saves

on a lot of traffic, especially if you quote the previous post in

full when posting it to the list.

Tx,

P.

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Hope everyone is doing well.

Haven't posted in a while. Just happen to be browsing tonight and

thought I would post a response to this. I stopped attending AA

regularly about a year ago. Shortly after I came across 12-step-

free. Anyhow I've been to a few meetings since that time but haven't

gone in the last six months. I feel really good about it. Funny

though after all this time I still hear those voices every so often.

I like to drink non-alcoholic beer on occasion and I still feel

uncomfortable when I go to purchase it. I hear that stupid voice

saying " non-alcoholic beer is for non-alcoholics " . Its to be

expected though. I spent over 10 years going to AA regularly. The

good thing about it is that I don't let it get to me. So what I'm

saying is that its going to take me a long time to rid myself of

those thoughts. 12-step-free was a great place to start for me. Good

luck to you.

Pat

>

> > On this past Monday, I was home enjoying

> > post-holiday meal nap and

> > was called by several members DEMANDING to know why

> > I had turned in

> > my keys and resigned service positions. I was

> > half-asleep and very

> > cross as I explained that I would not be attending

> > AA at that club

> > anymore. One accused me of being drunk. I told my

> > mother what

> > happened and she was shocked. I have been running

> > off adrenaline,

> > caffiene and nicotine for 8.5 months. When I am not

> > at work, I am

> > doing AA or AA-related things even at home. I

> > decide to leave a

> > meeting place where apparently the most socially

> > unacceptable people

> > attend and take a long weekend away and this

> > supposedly sane '4 yr

> > winner' accuses me of being drunk because I decide

> > to have a life for

> > a few days and then seek better adjusted people.

> >

> > Of course, through that evening the light bulbs

> > started coming on and

> > the scales started falling off my eyes. Of AA is a

> > cult. I knew

> > that. Why did I let this people have so much

> > control over me?

> > Because they seemed to have it together? Because

> > they were nice to

> > me when I felt lost? Why did I turn my soul over to

> > these people?

> > Why did I lose sleep and even work overtime to sit

> > and listen to the

> > same motley crew of miserable people that whined

> > constantly and ended

> > it with'but i didn't get drunk'.

> >

> > Sorry this has run far over. I am tired, drained

> > and I haven't

> > really been able to vent this out totally. Please

> > bear with me.

> >

> > Thanks. Becky

> >

> Don't appologize. I like to hear that stuff.

> The whole phenomenon of how they can feed us

> such bull and get away with it is fascinating to

> me, when you come right down to it.

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

hey pat, good to hear from you. i recall vividly when you first appreared here

and the discussion

we had.

[Guest guest]

Pat says, " So what I'm

saying is that its going to take me a long time to rid myself of

those thoughts. 12-step-free was a great place to start for me. "

When I bailed out, there was no 12-step free. I didn't have a computer and the

Wonderful

World of E-lists was still far, far in the future. I think I would have felt a

lot better

if I'd had other people around who saw it the way I did. I felt like the only

one, or

almost the only one. So very few people saw the negative stuff, and I had no

contact with

them. The only person who didn't like AA was my partner, and I was keeping him

at a

distance at that time.

I'm glad there are books and this e-list for people who are getting out and need

to know

there's someone else who thinks the way they do.

Cheers,

nz