Re: Just another day.

[Guest guest]

At 02:02 PM 9/6/01 -0400, you wrote:

>:

>And by the by, I don't recall encouraging others to follow my path.

You wrote this:

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At 02:58 AM 9/6/01 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Kim:

You are really pissed off. I recommend therapy and pot. Pot is very nice

and mild. Chill out.

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> I wonder

>if others on this list have tried moderation.

Yes, but most people know that driving while drinking eight beers

is not moderation.

(speaking as a listmember, not as co-moderator)

[Guest guest]

Rudy, there is a solution to the religious dogma and rigidity of AA.

There is a program that encourages self empowerment, open mindedness,

rational thinking and individuality. No higher powers, no steps, no

sponsers, no moral inventories, no confessions, and no religious

overtones. Just good old fashion group support. I'm not sure if

it's ok to discuss this on this list as I am new here. It's awesome

that you've stayed sober, I'm still struggling at it.

J

> > << Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself

system. I

> > think I will stick with AA for a while. >>

> >

> > That was obviously a jab, specifically meant to insult and

> > provoke. Why don't you be " rigorously honest " and " promptly

admit you're

> > wrong " ?

> >

> > Please go back to the home page for this group and read

the mission

> > statement. If you are here to learn WHY many people are turned

off to

> > steppism, fine. But if you intend to continue insulting

listmembers or

> > trying to persuade them to be " open " to steppism when they have

already

> > encountered it and know it's not their bag, then don't expect

to stay for

> > very long. OK?

>

> Actually, Rita, I think Rudy has a point. In the past two days,

Jan

> has rhapsodized about the pleasures of drunken driving and urged

> others to begin smoking pot, as well as making the offer to have

sex

> with her " master " if he'd agree to co-sign for a new car. Since

Rudy is

> new to the list, I can understand why he'd think " So *this* is how

> people live when they're not in AA? "

>

> I'm not going to boot Rudy for pointing out that this is an

unappealing

> lifestyle. I was rather appalled myself. Rudy didn't try to

convince

> anyone to join AA; he just stated that he'd rather remain in AA

> than live the way Jan is living.

>

> Rudy, please be aware that most of us don't live that way. You'll

> note that the only response to the drunk-driving-is-fun post was

> one pointing out the dangers of this form of recreation. Some

> former 12-steppers drink lightly, while others choose total

abstinence,

> but I don't know of anyone (other than Jan) who thinks that

habitual

> drunk driving, smoking pot to calm down, and trading sex for

> favors is a healthy lifestyle.

>

> If -- just hypothetically -- Rudy or someone else did begin

urging

> others to join AA or some other 12-step group, then that would be

> a violation of the list policy. But just saying " I'd rather be

in AA

> than live like that " is a valid observation, IMO.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 07:03 PM 9/6/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Rudy, there is a solution to the religious dogma and rigidity of AA.

>There is a program that encourages self empowerment, open mindedness,

>rational thinking and individuality. No higher powers, no steps, no

>sponsers, no moral inventories, no confessions, and no religious

>overtones. Just good old fashion group support. I'm not sure if

>it's ok to discuss this on this list as I am new here. It's awesome

>that you've stayed sober, I'm still struggling at it.

From the charter:

" Although not the focus here, information on alternative organizations and

methods of resolving drinking problems are available for the asking. "

So it's OK to discuss other programs. There may be criticism, though,

since for every person who loves a particular program there's probably

someone else who dislikes it.

[Guest guest]

Rudy wrote, " In some respects I agree with a lot of what I have read on the

deprogramming

web page. I find, however, that the claims of contradiction and others have no

supporting

references. "

Would you be willing to tell me specifically what these " claims of

contradiction " are.

I'm not looking to pick a fight with you or flame you, BTW. I'm interested,

rather, in

getting a discussion going.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Of course you may discuss an alternative program that you find helpful

to your sobriety. Generally pretty well anything can be discussed

that isnt inimical to the list's purpose, and in fact the FAQ

specifically states that AA alternatives are appropriate. Your post,

coming from someone who has been around longer than Rudy, after an

iontroduction and showing respect and courtesy to a list culture about

which you are still learning, is a stark contrast to Rudy's initial

post which for me is excellent evidence of the distinction between a

sincere enquirer into a list and a hostile one.

P.

> Rudy, there is a solution to the religious dogma and rigidity of AA.

> There is a program that encourages self empowerment, open

mindedness,

> rational thinking and individuality. No higher powers, no steps, no

> sponsers, no moral inventories, no confessions, and no religious

> overtones. Just good old fashion group support. I'm not sure if

> it's ok to discuss this on this list as I am new here. It's awesome

> that you've stayed sober, I'm still struggling at it.

[Guest guest]

At 03:46 PM 9/6/01 -0400, you wrote:

>Rudy wrote, " In some respects I agree with a lot of what I have read on

>the deprogramming

>web page. I find, however, that the claims of contradiction and others

>have no supporting

>references. "

>

>Would you be willing to tell me specifically what these " claims of

>contradiction " are.

>I'm not looking to pick a fight with you or flame you, BTW. I'm

>interested, rather, in

>getting a discussion going.

Rudy left the list.

[Guest guest]

Rudy, Perhaps I responded too hastily this morning. Your original post just struck me as antagonistic. I choose not to drink and I haven't been to an aa meeting in almost a year. I hardly ever post here but when I read what you wrote this morning

I thought that maybe you just popped in to cause trouble. Hang around a while and you may see why most of us are no longer very open-minded about steppism.

Re: Just another day.

Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

[Guest guest]

> Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I

think I will stick with AA for a while.

Ah yes,such an original thought..........shit!

[Guest guest]

I have to agree about not being very openminded about steppism. I got terribly depressed by my time in the 12-step groups but the problem is that even this fits into the recovery mindset of those groups - "it'll get worse before it gets better," etc.

Robin s

Re: Just another day.

Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

[Guest guest]

Robin, Kim, Pete and anyone else who suffers from depression: I have fought this battle since my teens. I am pretty sure that the depression hit before the addiction to a depressive (alcohol). In 1997 a counselor urged me to try antidepressants for months. I have always had a vague philosophical aversion to using chemicals to change the way my brain works. I feel that if I am a sad lonely person then so be it. Finally I gave in and my doctor prescribed Zoloft. After a few weeks I noticed a real surge of self-confidence and well being. A year later I quit taking the drug cold turkey. Please, don't any of you try this:) It was an interesting, twisted experience. I could actually feel sensations in my brain. Always slowly decrease the dosage of these drugs if you decide to quit.

Alright, I am rambling and apologize. I have been taking Zoloft again for about a year and a half now and can't be sure if it is doing anything or not. I think that it helps me cope but may stop using it in the near future.

If anyone is considering using any of these drugs remember that they all work differently on each individual. As Pete said if the first doesn't work tell your doctor you want to try another. Also, these antidepressants have been proven to work best when they are combined with some form of talk therapy.

Finally, Pete take care of yourself.

Re: Just another day.

I have to agree about not being very openminded about steppism. I got terribly depressed by my time in the 12-step groups but the problem is that even this fits into the recovery mindset of those groups - "it'll get worse before it gets better," etc.

Robin s

[Guest guest]

, It turns out I'm a diagnosed manic-depressive; that's why, in retrospect, my symptoms worsened while in 12-step groups rather than getting better.

I'm currently medicated, thankfully. I have to watch for my mania to flare up when I'm on the antidepressants but other than that I'm fine now. (Unlike when I was taking the steps...)

Robin s

Re: Just another day.

I have to agree about not being very openminded about steppism. I got terribly depressed by my time in the 12-step groups but the problem is that even this fits into the recovery mindset of those groups - "it'll get worse before it gets better," etc.

Robin s