Re: Just another day.

[Guest guest]

So stick with aa. I met more fuckups there than anywhere in my life. Just

because a person is a member of a weird religious sect doesn't mean they will

be without problems. And if you're so steppy, just what the fuck are you

doing on this list asshole?

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 6:29:43 AM Central Daylight Time,

bennerr@... writes:

<<

Master got a DWI last night. So he spent the day whipping himself

over it. Get this, after 15 days, his license is suspended, and I

have to take him to and from work for a month. Oh fun. Still don't

have a job. Still moderating substance usage, and doing well with it

I think. I realized a long time ago that I made the decision to use

as much as I did. We shall see. Someone shoot my partner. He hates

life anyway. Since he got his DWI, I am no longer allowed to drink

or smoke pot. I didn't get a DWI. Ironically, what may save his ass

is that they searched his car without permission or a search

warrent. That's not legal in MO. I think he has an out that could

get his case thrown out of court. Arnold, MO pigs are such pigs.

They suck beyond description. And this is a whites only town too.

Jan >>

[Guest guest]

Nice reply whoever you are. Thanks.

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 7:14:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

jmcma7@... writes:

<< Hey, Rude Boy, That's great. Now, why don't you take what you need and

leave the list?

Re: Just another day.

Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I

will stick with AA for a while.

>>

[Guest guest]

Go away asshole. Go to a meeting. In fact go to 90 meetings in 90 days.

You'll have less time to fuck around on an anti 12 step list. Oh yeah, BTW,

if you want to find out a few truths about your precious aa, go to

aadeprogramming.com and go to hell.

Hugz,

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 9:16:43 AM Central Daylight Time,

bennerr@... writes:

<< Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

Re: Just another day.

Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think

I will stick with AA for a while.

>>

[Guest guest]

Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I will stick with AA for a while.

Just another day.

Master got a DWI last night. So he spent the day whipping himself over it. Get this, after 15 days, his license is suspended, and I have to take him to and from work for a month. Oh fun. Still don't have a job. Still moderating substance usage, and doing well with it I think. I realized a long time ago that I made the decision to use as much as I did. We shall see. Someone shoot my partner. He hates life anyway. Since he got his DWI, I am no longer allowed to drink or smoke pot. I didn't get a DWI. Ironically, what may save his ass is that they searched his car without permission or a search warrent. That's not legal in MO. I think he has an out that could get his case thrown out of court. Arnold, MO pigs are such pigs. They suck beyond description. And this is a whites only town too. Jan

[Guest guest]

Hey, Rude Boy, That's great. Now, why don't you take what you need and leave the list?

Re: Just another day.

Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I will stick with AA for a while.

[Guest guest]

I'd rather be found dead on the kitchen floor than go to another meeting.

Three and a half years was all the exposure to that world that I want for this lifetime. If others choose to go that way, I won't try to dissuade them. Neither would I encourage participation.

Like so many other things, people have to decide for themselves.

[Guest guest]

I don't care how many meetings you go to. I don't care what you think of the

people there. I don't care about your " truth " . You should read Ken Ragge,

and Stanton Peele and Szazs on addiction. What you really should to is quit

posting to me. I don't generally associate with known steppers.

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 9:49:20 AM Central Daylight Time,

bennerr@... writes:

<< As a matter of fact, I have been sober since December of 1985. I still

attend 90 meetings in any 90 day period. In fact I have been reading the

articles on the quoted web site and find a lot of statements made about AA

and no evidence to support them.

As for hell, I think I have already served my time.

On the other hand, there are some individuals in AA, whom I call AA

Fundamentalists, who like their religious brethren, are a royal pain in the

butt. One of their most glaring characteristics is a closed mind. In fact,

usually " Militantly Ignorant " to use a phrase from M. Peck.

As for the truth....you find your own.

Re: Just another day.

Go away asshole. Go to a meeting. In fact go to 90 meetings in 90 days.

You'll have less time to fuck around on an anti 12 step list. Oh yeah,

BTW,

if you want to find out a few truths about your precious aa, go to

aadeprogramming.com and go to hell.

Hugz,

Jan >>

[Guest guest]

Rita:

You always cut to the chase so well. I bet I would like you if I knew you.

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 9:50:15 AM Central Daylight Time, rita66@...

writes:

<<

> Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

--------------

Excuse me, but why exactly did you join a list called " 12-Step-Free " ,

if you are a happy stepper who does not wish to be free of steppism? Are you

here just to harass us?

~Rita

> Re: Just another day.

>

>

> Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I

think I will stick with AA for a while.

>

[Guest guest]

Why don't you do a little academic research about the addictions field, and

then post here?

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 9:59:38 AM Central Daylight Time,

bennerr@... writes:

<< I am interested in your ideas too. So far, the majority of response has

been hateful and hostile. Not a good indication of openmindness. Perhaps I

was in error...thinking that this was another OPEN FORUM ??

Re: Just another day.

>>

[Guest guest]

:

BTW - I call Ron my master because he is so domineering. I have had him go

off on me for seven hours straight. I thought it was funny he got a DWI

because he thinks he's soooooo perfect.

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 11:36:01 AM Central Daylight Time,

malgeo@... writes:

<< At 03:38 PM 9/6/01 +0000, you wrote:

> << Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I

> think I will stick with AA for a while. >>

>

> That was obviously a jab, specifically meant to insult and

> provoke. Why don't you be " rigorously honest " and " promptly admit you're

> wrong " ?

>

> Please go back to the home page for this group and read the mission

> statement. If you are here to learn WHY many people are turned off to

> steppism, fine. But if you intend to continue insulting listmembers or

> trying to persuade them to be " open " to steppism when they have already

> encountered it and know it's not their bag, then don't expect to stay for

> very long. OK?

Actually, Rita, I think Rudy has a point. In the past two days, Jan

has rhapsodized about the pleasures of drunken driving and urged

others to begin smoking pot, as well as making the offer to have sex

with her " master " if he'd agree to co-sign for a new car. Since Rudy is

new to the list, I can understand why he'd think " So *this* is how

people live when they're not in AA? "

I'm not going to boot Rudy for pointing out that this is an unappealing

lifestyle. I was rather appalled myself. Rudy didn't try to convince

anyone to join AA; he just stated that he'd rather remain in AA

than live the way Jan is living.

Rudy, please be aware that most of us don't live that way. You'll

note that the only response to the drunk-driving-is-fun post was

one pointing out the dangers of this form of recreation. Some

former 12-steppers drink lightly, while others choose total abstinence,

but I don't know of anyone (other than Jan) who thinks that habitual

drunk driving, smoking pot to calm down, and trading sex for

favors is a healthy lifestyle. >>

[Guest guest]

:

And by the by, I don't recall encouraging others to follow my path. I wonder

if others on this list have tried moderation.

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 11:36:01 AM Central Daylight Time,

malgeo@... writes:

<< At 03:38 PM 9/6/01 +0000, you wrote:

> << Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I

> think I will stick with AA for a while. >>

>

> That was obviously a jab, specifically meant to insult and

> provoke. Why don't you be " rigorously honest " and " promptly admit you're

> wrong " ?

>

> Please go back to the home page for this group and read the mission

> statement. If you are here to learn WHY many people are turned off to

> steppism, fine. But if you intend to continue insulting listmembers or

> trying to persuade them to be " open " to steppism when they have already

> encountered it and know it's not their bag, then don't expect to stay for

> very long. OK?

Actually, Rita, I think Rudy has a point. In the past two days, Jan

has rhapsodized about the pleasures of drunken driving and urged

others to begin smoking pot, as well as making the offer to have sex

with her " master " if he'd agree to co-sign for a new car. Since Rudy is

new to the list, I can understand why he'd think " So *this* is how

people live when they're not in AA? "

I'm not going to boot Rudy for pointing out that this is an unappealing

lifestyle. I was rather appalled myself. Rudy didn't try to convince

anyone to join AA; he just stated that he'd rather remain in AA

than live the way Jan is living.

Rudy, please be aware that most of us don't live that way. You'll

note that the only response to the drunk-driving-is-fun post was

one pointing out the dangers of this form of recreation. Some

former 12-steppers drink lightly, while others choose total abstinence,

but I don't know of anyone (other than Jan) who thinks that habitual

drunk driving, smoking pot to calm down, and trading sex for

favors is a healthy lifestyle.

If -- just hypothetically -- Rudy or someone else did begin urging

others to join AA or some other 12-step group, then that would be

a violation of the list policy. But just saying " I'd rather be in AA

than live like that " is a valid observation, IMO.

- >>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

Re: Just another day.

Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I will stick with AA for a while.

[Guest guest]

-

Keep an open mind? You mean like your I told you so attitude.

-- In 12-step-free@y..., " Rudy Benner " wrote:

> Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

> Re: Just another day.

>

>

> Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system.

I think I will stick with AA for a while.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jan. The other replies were not so nice.

Re: Just another day. Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I will stick with AA for a while. >>

[Guest guest]

As a matter of fact, I have been sober since December of 1985. I still attend 90 meetings in any 90 day period. In fact I have been reading the articles on the quoted web site and find a lot of statements made about AA and no evidence to support them.

As for hell, I think I have already served my time.

On the other hand, there are some individuals in AA, whom I call AA Fundamentalists, who like their religious brethren, are a royal pain in the butt. One of their most glaring characteristics is a closed mind. In fact, usually "Militantly Ignorant" to use a phrase from M. Peck.

As for the truth....you find your own.

Re: Just another day. Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I will stick with AA for a while. >>

[Guest guest]

> Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

--------------

Excuse me, but why exactly did you join a list called " 12-Step-Free " , if

you are a happy stepper who does not wish to be free of steppism? Are you here

just to harass us?

~Rita

> Re: Just another day.

>

>

> Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I

will stick with AA for a while.

>

[Guest guest]

I am interested in your ideas too. So far, the majority of response has been hateful and hostile. Not a good indication of openmindness. Perhaps I was in error...thinking that this was another OPEN FORUM ??

Re: Just another day.> > > Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I think I will stick with AA for a while.>

[Guest guest]

I am in complete agreement. Most of us are here because we want to be 12-step free, but for cryin' out loud, we criticize the 12-steppers for not living up to their "keep an open mind" motto. Are we really any different when we act overtly hostile while their hostility to our ideas is covered up (remember that 12-steppers recommend against getting too hungry, angry, lonely or tired, and showing overt hostility means that they are getting too "angry" and are in danger of a relapse according to the 12-step philosophy)?

Robin s

Re: Re: Just another day.

I am interested in your ideas too. So far, the majority of response has been hateful and hostile. Not a good indication of openmindness. Perhaps I was in error...thinking that this was another OPEN FORUM ??

[Guest guest]

>

> > Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.

>

> --------------

>

> Excuse me, but why exactly did you join a list called " 12-Step-Free " ,

if you are a happy stepper who does not wish to be free of steppism? Are you

here just to harass us?

>

> ~Rita

>

[Guest guest]

I read your comment several times and find them very interesting.

For myself, I do not think that the "BIG BOOK' is the last word on dealing with addiction, I am not an AA Fundamentalist. In some respects I agree with a lot of what I have read on the deprogramming web page. I find, however, that the claims of contradiction and others have no supporting references. Am I to just swallow these whole, assuming them to be true? I think we need to be diligent in these matters. I think that some AA groups are very sick, not all of them. I have traveled a bit and see a wide variation, even within the same city.

Find what works for you and if it works, continue, if not, move on....

I will continue.....

Re: Re: Just another day.

I am interested in your ideas too. So far, the majority of response has been hateful and hostile. Not a good indication of openmindness. Perhaps I was in error...thinking that this was another OPEN FORUM ??

[Guest guest]

You said "The one thing that we are NOT "open-minded" about is steppism."

Am I to take it that you are the moderator of this forum, that you decide what is acceptable or not? Are you only open minded as long as things go your way?

Re: Just another day.

> > > Perhaps an open mind would be helpful.> > --------------> > Excuse me, but why exactly did you join a list called "12-Step-Free", if you are a happy stepper who does not wish to be free of steppism? Are you here just to harass us?> > ~Rita>

[Guest guest]

At 03:38 PM 9/6/01 +0000, you wrote:

> << Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I

> think I will stick with AA for a while. >>

>

> That was obviously a jab, specifically meant to insult and

> provoke. Why don't you be " rigorously honest " and " promptly admit you're

> wrong " ?

>

> Please go back to the home page for this group and read the mission

> statement. If you are here to learn WHY many people are turned off to

> steppism, fine. But if you intend to continue insulting listmembers or

> trying to persuade them to be " open " to steppism when they have already

> encountered it and know it's not their bag, then don't expect to stay for

> very long. OK?

Actually, Rita, I think Rudy has a point. In the past two days, Jan

has rhapsodized about the pleasures of drunken driving and urged

others to begin smoking pot, as well as making the offer to have sex

with her " master " if he'd agree to co-sign for a new car. Since Rudy is

new to the list, I can understand why he'd think " So *this* is how

people live when they're not in AA? "

I'm not going to boot Rudy for pointing out that this is an unappealing

lifestyle. I was rather appalled myself. Rudy didn't try to convince

anyone to join AA; he just stated that he'd rather remain in AA

than live the way Jan is living.

Rudy, please be aware that most of us don't live that way. You'll

note that the only response to the drunk-driving-is-fun post was

one pointing out the dangers of this form of recreation. Some

former 12-steppers drink lightly, while others choose total abstinence,

but I don't know of anyone (other than Jan) who thinks that habitual

drunk driving, smoking pot to calm down, and trading sex for

favors is a healthy lifestyle.

If -- just hypothetically -- Rudy or someone else did begin urging

others to join AA or some other 12-step group, then that would be

a violation of the list policy. But just saying " I'd rather be in AA

than live like that " is a valid observation, IMO.

[Guest guest]

>

> > I am interested in your ideas too. So far, the majority of response has

been hateful and hostile. Not a good indication of openmindness. Perhaps I was

in error...thinking that this was another OPEN FORUM ??

> >

> ---------------

>

> Rudy -- We are very " open-minded " about a great many issues,and

frequently veer off-topic to discuss our different ideas on all sorts of things.

The one thing that we are NOT " open-minded " about is steppism. There are

thousands of step-oriented forums one can go to to joyously praise

AA/NA/whatever-A and/or express ridicule or pity for those who reject 12-step

ideology. This list is NOT such a place, and surely you do not expect a

friendly reponse when your first post here is the following:

>

> << Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I

think I will stick with AA for a while. >>

>

> That was obviously a jab, specifically meant to insult and provoke.

Why don't you be " rigorously honest " and " promptly admit you're wrong " ?

>

> Please go back to the home page for this group and read the mission

statement. If you are here to learn WHY many people are turned off to steppism,

fine. But if you intend to continue insulting listmembers or trying to persuade

them to be " open " to steppism when they have already encountered it and know

it's not their bag, then don't expect to stay for very long. OK?

>

> ~Rita

>

[Guest guest]

BINGO! Thanks . You nailed it.

Re: Re: Just another day.

At 03:38 PM 9/6/01 +0000, you wrote:> << Ah yes, the joys of sobriety done by the do-it-yourself system. I > think I will stick with AA for a while. >>>> That was obviously a jab, specifically meant to insult and > provoke. Why don't you be "rigorously honest" and "promptly admit you're > wrong"?>> Please go back to the home page for this group and read the mission > statement. If you are here to learn WHY many people are turned off to > steppism, fine. But if you intend to continue insulting listmembers or > trying to persuade them to be "open" to steppism when they have already > encountered it and know it's not their bag, then don't expect to stay for > very long. OK?Actually, Rita, I think Rudy has a point. In the past two days, Janhas rhapsodized about the pleasures of drunken driving and urgedothers to begin smoking pot, as well as making the offer to have sexwith her "master" if he'd agree to co-sign for a new car. Since Rudy isnew to the list, I can understand why he'd think "So *this* is howpeople live when they're not in AA?"I'm not going to boot Rudy for pointing out that this is an unappealinglifestyle. I was rather appalled myself. Rudy didn't try to convinceanyone to join AA; he just stated that he'd rather remain in AAthan live the way Jan is living.Rudy, please be aware that most of us don't live that way. You'llnote that the only response to the drunk-driving-is-fun post wasone pointing out the dangers of this form of recreation. Someformer 12-steppers drink lightly, while others choose total abstinence,but I don't know of anyone (other than Jan) who thinks that habitualdrunk driving, smoking pot to calm down, and trading sex forfavors is a healthy lifestyle.If -- just hypothetically -- Rudy or someone else did begin urgingothers to join AA or some other 12-step group, then that would bea violation of the list policy. But just saying "I'd rather be in AAthan live like that" is a valid observation, IMO.

[Guest guest]

:

Has it occurred to you, as a person, not a moderator, that eight beers in you

is different that eight beers in me?

Jan

In a message dated 9/6/01 1:54:03 PM Central Daylight Time,

malgeo@... writes:

<<

Yes, but most people know that driving while drinking eight beers

is not moderation.

(speaking as a listmember, not as co-moderator)

>>