Re: and yet another book......

[Guest guest]

try Valley of the Sun hypnosis tapes at Dick Sutphen.com

see link. http://www.sutphenpublishing.com/ " >Valley of the Sun

Publishing

[Guest guest]

CB -

I reiterate, it seems that the more time a person has in the program, the less able that person is to make decisions all by him[her]self. Try telling that to an AAer. Janice

CB wrote: In the bookshop again, saw a book on how to be a goodsponsor........felt compelled to have a look(not to learn how tobe agood sponsor <G>......in fact I never sponsored anyone) and it was trulygut churning; full of stuff about 'grandsponsors' and questions andanswers about what to say to your sponsee's questions, and soon......and a step by step (literally <G>) how to do it guide. Can'tremember the auther, just a first name and initial.M.PS and STILL I have this 'guilty' feeling whenever I'criticise'.....will this ever go? Tomboy? Anyone?

[Guest guest]

> In the bookshop again, saw a book on how to be a good

> sponsor........felt compelled to have a look(not to learn how tobe a

> good sponsor ......in fact I never sponsored anyone) and it was

truly

> gut churning; full of stuff about 'grandsponsors' and questions and

Even before I left the " rooms " , I thought this " grandsponsor " thing

was ridiculous!

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

[Guest guest]

>

> CB -

> I reiterate, it seems that the more time a person has in the

program, the less able that person is to make decisions all by him

[her]self. Try telling that to an AAer.

> Janice

Hi CB, Janice, all,

I had no clue how much my mind had shut down until

i got out. If for work, it wasn't for the uniform,

would never have gotten out of the house.

Seriously, the brains shut down without even knowing it.

Jump starting that sucker has been most challenging and

fustrating. This list has assisted in that process, sharing

info, learning new words(can't pronounce em though, no sound).

Learning about logic and critical thought, thats a whole new

world to me. Recently, Devin, gave some info and sites on

debating, so am exploring that right now. Would like to have

confidence. Learning helps. Just hate it though, when the info

falls back out. lol Two steps fwd-one back. Turtle snot.

Next month will be a year when i left, i was incapable of making

decisions back then. Am glad the mind can heal.

netty

[Guest guest]

see you on the dark side of the moon

[Guest guest]

I really do go to a meeting every now and then, for a mock spiritual awakening, but then I'm not an ex-AAer, so it's just a change of pace for me.

best,

Janie

skplws@... writes:

see you on the dark side of the moon

[Guest guest]

Netty -

Looking back, I am finding that that I should have trusted my gut instincts - I have found that I was more right than wrong in the things that count - like who I believe I can trust. I learned early on in AA that my own instincts were probably wrong and grew to fear just the thought of making a mistake. What freedom *this* is.

I have mentioned about my former sponsor not calling me because I yellled at her in front of someone about two weeks ago. I tried to call her to apologize ("make amends") but she refused to call me back (this is someone with 13 years "sobriety"). There is little doubt in my mind that she thought she was punishing me. I dropped out of AA the week of that incident, and it really didn't have anything to do with my sponsor. From the time I met her, I felt something was wrong, but thought that maybe something was wrong with me to question her honesty when I thought I caught her in little lies (must be mistaken). To make a long story short, I lent her some money about a month ago with the understanding that it would be paid back in April. Purley a "business" thing. I figured out this morning (sometimes it takes me a while to put two-and-two together) that she probably isn't calling me back because I may ask her to pay me back now. So much for how well she thinks she knows me. Left a message on her office phone this morning confirming our business arrrangement and that I was sorry that we aparently couldn't be friends. Must be a God-arranged miracle, 'cause she called me while I was writing this message and everything seems to be peachy-keen again. Pretended she didn't know until just a few days ago that I had left AA (her sponsee was my co-sponsor). Also never mentioned she got my message this morning. Like she called out of the blue, because she wanted to mend the rift between us. Bottom line to this, my instincts about her were right. My "learned" trust was false.

Janice caenemy wrote: > > CB -> I reiterate, it seems that the more time a person has in the program, the less able that person is to make decisions all by him[her]self. Try telling that to an AAer. > Janice Hi CB, Janice, all, I had no clue how much my mind had shut down until i got out. If for work, it wasn't for the uniform, would never have gotten out of the house. Seriously, the brains shut down without even knowing it. Jump starting that sucker has been most challenging and fustrating. This list has assisted in that process, sharing info, learning new words(can't pronounce em though, no sound). Learning about logic and critical thought, thats a whole new world to me. Recently, Devin, gave some info and sites on debating, so am exploring that right now. Would like to have confidence. Learning helps. Just hate it though, when the info falls back out. lol Two steps fwd-one back. Turtle snot. Next month will be a year when i left, i was incapable of making decisions back then. Am glad the mind can heal. netty

[Guest guest]

>

> Netty -

> Looking back, I am finding that that I should have trusted my gut

instincts - I have found that I was more right than wrong in the

things that count - like who I believe I can trust. I learned early

on in AA that my own instincts were probably wrong and grew to fear

just the thought of making a mistake. What freedom *this* is.

> I have mentioned about my former sponsor not calling me because I

yellled at her in front of someone about two weeks ago. I tried to

call her to apologize ( " make amends " ) but she refused to call me back

(this is someone with 13 years " sobriety " ). There is little doubt in

my mind that she thought she was punishing me. I dropped out of AA

the week of that incident, and it really didn't have anything to do

with my sponsor. From the time I met her, I felt something was

wrong, but thought that maybe something was wrong with me to question

her honesty when I thought I caught her in little lies (must be

mistaken). To make a long story short, I lent her some money about a

month ago with the understanding that it would be paid back in

April. Purley a " business " thing. I figured out this morning

(sometimes it takes me a while to put two-and-two together) that she

probably isn't calling me back because I may ask her to pay me back

now. So much for how well she thinks she knows me. Left a message

on her office phone this morning confirming our business arrrangement

and that I was sorry that we aparently couldn't be friends. Must be

a God-arranged miracle, 'cause she called me while I was writing this

message and everything seems to be peachy-keen again. Pretended she

didn't know until just a few days ago that I had left AA (her sponsee

was my co-sponsor). Also never mentioned she got my message this

morning. Like she called out of the blue, because she wanted to mend

the rift between us. Bottom line to this, my instincts about her

were right. My " learned " trust was false.

> Janice

Hi Janice,

'Learned' trust, so wish i would of stuck with my instincts.

I was taught to shut those off-it was called the 'disease'.

When i asked about those little lies...more lies. Again, dis-

count the way i perceived info. I also didn't want to believe

they had other nasty motives. And i still have a hard time

comprehending that some people can be motivated to just trash

others.

Totally destroy, just for the hell of it.

Cannot grasp that...but need to...else it's a weakness, which

these type of people use and abuse.

I worry that maybe i shut those instincts off for to long,

do not seem to work right. Or maybe i just don't trust myself

yet. So any lingering doubt, which is always there, says no...

do not trust. I don't like living like that.

I've questioned all groups/lists(SOS,RR,MM,SMART all of em)even

this one(hate to admit that)but those thoughts are there. I just

can not trust. Did this happen to you? And does it ever go away?

I can pretend to trust and even take risks, but the guard is

always there. Maybe that is normal.

netty

[Guest guest]

Netty -

"We will love you until you learn to love yourself". That was the sign directly above where the newcomer counting days (to 90) sat and shared his or her feelings for a few minutes every day. For me, I sat there for more than one 90-day period, and came to believe what was written on that sign. Unconditional love of another suffering alcoholic. Almost every day, that the sign would be pointed out and I could sense the fuzzy feel-good effect it had on myself and just about everyone in the room. I could virtually see the trust in those words in their eyes. I may not be able to see anyone's eyes here, but I sense that what is being said at this site and at sites like it are as honest as what was said under that sign in the early days of attempting to learn a new way of living. I know I have been stumbling around a bit, and I know I'm not alone in that. I'm glad that I am still a trusting person notwithstanding what has happened since living AA - This time, though, I'm doing a little research as I go along. Don't give up on trust. I still believe that it is not the intent of the great majority of AA people to take advantage of anyone - If something bothers you about anything which may be said on this site or any other - you should question it, and I think you will be able to determine the honesty of that person by the response. Hope this helps.

Janice wrote: > > Netty -> Looking back, I am finding that that I should have trusted my gut instincts - I have found that I was more right than wrong in the things that count - like who I believe I can trust. I learned early on in AA that my own instincts were probably wrong and grew to fear just the thought of making a mistake. What freedom *this* is.> I have mentioned about my former sponsor not calling me because I yellled at her in front of someone about two weeks ago. I tried to call her to apologize ("make amends") but she refused to call me back (this is someone with 13 years "sobriety"). There is little doubt in my mind that she thought she was punishing me. I dropped out of AA the week of that incident, and it really didn't have anything to do with my sponsor. From the time I met her, I felt something was wrong, but thought that maybe something was wrong with me to question her honesty when I thought I caught her in little lies (must be mistaken). To make a long story short, I lent her some money about a month ago with the understanding that it would be paid back in April. Purley a "business" thing. I figured out this morning (sometimes it takes me a while to put two-and-two together) that she probably isn't calling me back because I may ask her to pay me back now. So much for how well she thinks she knows me. Left a message on her office phone this morning confirming our business arrrangement and that I was sorry that we aparently couldn't be friends. Must be a God-arranged miracle, 'cause she called me while I was writing this message and everything seems to be peachy-keen again. Pretended she didn't know until just a few days ago that I had left AA (her sponsee was my co-sponsor). Also never mentioned she got my message this morning. Like she called out of the blue, because she wanted to mend the rift between us. Bottom line to this, my instincts about her were right. My "learned" trust was false.> Janice Hi Janice, 'Learned' trust, so wish i would of stuck with my instincts. I was taught to shut those off-it was called the 'disease'. When i asked about those little lies...more lies. Again, dis- count the way i perceived info. I also didn't want to believe they had other nasty motives. And i still have a hard time comprehending that some people can be motivated to just trash others. Totally destroy, just for the hell of it. Cannot grasp that...but need to...else it's a weakness, which these type of people use and abuse. I worry that maybe i shut those instincts off for to long, do not seem to work right. Or maybe i just don't trust myself yet. So any lingering doubt, which is always there, says no... do not trust. I don't like living like that. I've questioned all groups/lists(SOS,RR,MM,SMART all of em)even this one(hate to admit that)but those thoughts are there. I just can not trust. Did this happen to you? And does it ever go away? I can pretend to trust and even take risks, but the guard is always there. Maybe that is normal. netty

[Guest guest]

netty,

I feel a lot like that too....don't know if that helps. It helped me to

read what you wrote - thanks.

M.

<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

> netty,

>

> I feel a lot like that too....don't know if that helps. It helped

me to

> read what you wrote - thanks.

>

> M.

>

>

>

Hi Janice, CB, all,

Honk - honk! yahoo ads

Beep - beep! yahoo steals reply.

Was answering Janice but yahoo stole it. Don't feel

like redoing it. Maybe later.

Yes...that does help. Want to know that these thoughts

are normal. What gets me is many things have happened in

life, not all good, but i could deal with it, and move on.

Was always the strong one, bounced back quick...not a big

deal. But this one am having problems with, it messed with

my mind or/and i internalized it and can't seem to make it

back full circle. Many of you have been out a very short

time and seem to be doing so well, bouncing back quickly.

Thats really great and am glad, just wish i was getting well

as quickly. (that reminds of aa...thought the same there too)

I doubted my own thought process for to long, and it's springs

must be a little worn. Maybe talking about it will help.

They use to talk about the twins, triplets, etc. being borned

if you didn't talk out what was going on. I know now that it

was just a way to get info...but did i internalize that too?

Have all these monsters growing in my head...what a joke!

Anyway thanks for both your replies.

netty

[Guest guest]

hey netty,

I think it's totally normal. I don't know about you but I spent

countless hours in meetings. I was broken down and rebuilt. Offered

the carrot and getting the stick. I was confused and anguished and at

other times excited and euphoric. We are inculcated with the

understanding that we are mad. This is what is over and over beat

into our heads. Everything I would say my sponsor would tell me how

insane and alcoholic I was. I regressed around my sponsor so

desperate for approval because I had been told that I couldn't make a

decision.

I have read some stuff off of the SMART recovery website. Even if you

don't want to abstain it seems like there is some helpful information

about learning to trust yourself and making decisions that benefit

your quality of life. One thing I read somewhere on the net about

self esteem was that in and of myself I was good. i didn't need to DO

anything necessarily to be good and deserving of goodness. I start

off that way. So, whether or not I drink or don't drink. Go to

meetings or don't go to meetings, keep commitments or don't keep

commitments--it doesn't matter. That's all gravy. Except the meeting

part. Don't ever have to go to those meetings again...Anyways, my

point is that I already started out in serious self doubt with low

self esteem. And the program only intensified that and linked it to

whether or not I was " working a good program " .

I get that we need to do some work. Take care of ourselves in a way

we never could while we were trying to rely on some steps or higher

powers from the program. I think for sure it is definitely scary. But

you can do it. You are capable. You are worth it. We are learning

that we are alright.

Thanks for sharing. :-)

kiki

> > netty,

> >

> > I feel a lot like that too....don't know if that helps. It helped

> me to

> > read what you wrote - thanks.

> >

> > M.

> >

> >

> >

> Hi Janice, CB, all,

>

> Honk - honk! yahoo ads

>

> Beep - beep! yahoo steals reply.

>

> Was answering Janice but yahoo stole it. Don't feel

> like redoing it. Maybe later.

>

> Yes...that does help. Want to know that these thoughts

> are normal. What gets me is many things have happened in

> life, not all good, but i could deal with it, and move on.

> Was always the strong one, bounced back quick...not a big

> deal. But this one am having problems with, it messed with

> my mind or/and i internalized it and can't seem to make it

> back full circle. Many of you have been out a very short

> time and seem to be doing so well, bouncing back quickly.

> Thats really great and am glad, just wish i was getting well

> as quickly. (that reminds of aa...thought the same there too)

> I doubted my own thought process for to long, and it's springs

> must be a little worn. Maybe talking about it will help.

> They use to talk about the twins, triplets, etc. being borned

> if you didn't talk out what was going on. I know now that it

> was just a way to get info...but did i internalize that too?

> Have all these monsters growing in my head...what a joke!

> Anyway thanks for both your replies.

>

> netty