RE: AA dream last nite / anyone had this experience?

[Guest guest]

CB - I made the mistake this morning in telling someone I work with about my decision to leave AA. I've been here 22 years, and certain people have been through all my drinking horrors. The person I spoke with is the kind of person I feel comfortable talking with, and both of us came to the conclusion that it would be best not to say anything to anyone else. I hate having to go through explanations anyway, like with my father and husband, who are just waiting for me to "slip". They really don't know anything about the true AA. Only one person from the rooms has a call into me (left last week). I am going to tell her why I left, and if she wants a copy of the "The Real AA - Behind the Myth..." I will be happy to give it to her. I don't think I am "powerful" enough to change someone's thinking by my words alone. She needs to do her own research, if she cares to. I do think a bit about possibly picking up, and it scares me a bit. That's the programming - Supposedly can't do this myself - Well, I'm not stupid, and I'm certainly not going to go from being a two-meeting-a-day, two-chairs-a-week AAer to absolutely nothing. I'm here, and I am at "aadeprogramming" and I also go to "aaornatwelvesepcults" . Gives me incentive. I just have to be more careful for now who I speak with about leaving AA. I am still the same person, just with changing thoughts - for the better. Janice

CB wrote: >>>>>>>>>AA is buried in my subconscious.<<<<<<thanks for that.........and for talking about your dream. It's amazinghow embedded things are. Was the Clancy stuff you spoke of part of thedream, or did you actually do that?Interesting you mentioning considering going back....last night I had areal fit of the 'anxieties'........just generalised stuff, but for amoment it crossed my mind "Maybe I should go back": I could actuallypicture myself walking into 'the rooms' (why 'the rooms'? That alwaysirritated me......and of course getting irritated at something like thatwould be a sure sign that I was 'off my program'<G>) and seeing the'smiling faces'.......and being 'welcomed back'....and on writing thisnow I feel like screaming AAAAARRRGH as I *know* that is not what I wantto do, or what will help me, but it was a feeling which seemed as thoughit was connected to all that subconscious, programmed stuff.......andthe best thought I could come up with was to talk about it here, whichis what I'm doing. Don't know if anyone else has had similar stuff but Iguess it's not that surprising after 16 years.......anyone else? Needinga little reassurance ....... :)M.

[Guest guest]

Even the language is part of the programming. I assume by "picking up" you mean drinking - but to my knowledge that phrase only has that meaning in AA. It goes pretty deep, doesn't it? You might even wind up deciding to take a drink or two, as some of us here have for various reasons (eliminate AA "birthday", thumb nose at "program", or just to prove that you can). And if you do, for whatever reason, you'll probably feel some guilt in doing so. You've been programmed to. But don't beat yourself up if it happens. No matter what the result, consider it a learning experience and move on.

I'd been experimenting with occasional drinking myself for a couple months now, and thought I was doing OK, but I really overdid it a couple times within that short span. For me (and each person is different, this may not apply to anyone else) I've determined as a result that the best plan for me is abstinence. While I don't buy in to the "disease" theory, I do believe, from my own experience (both pre-AA and recent), that there are some people who, for whatever reason, cannot reasonably control their alcohol intake after a certain point. Once I start, sometimes there comes a point I cannot stop. Sometimes not, but I can't predict if or when it will happen. Whether that is something innate or something I have learned doesn't really matter - it is just my reality, and I'll deal with it. Perhaps it would be possible to learn to moderate, but I don't see the point in expending the effort now. OTOH, what I have also learned is that I have no reason to fear the relatively small amounts of alcohol in such things as cold and cough medicine, or candy and baked goods. Or even a sip of champagne or wine at a celebration (but just a symbolic sip). I do not believe that even the slightest amount of alcohol, or the flavor of alcohol (such as in cooking and baking, where the alcohol itself is gone and just the flavor remains) will set off uncontrollable cravings and start me on a binge.

Funny thing is, though... after my recent episode of overindulgence, as I was recovering from a hangover, I did have fleeting thoughts of going back to AA, but quickly discarded them. If I should decide I need help, I will consider other alternatives, such as RR, SMART, or, if I feel I need a support group, maybe SOS. But never again AA.

-----Original Message-----From: Janice La

I do think a bit about possibly picking up, and it scares me a bit. That's the programming -

[Guest guest]

" . . . I did have fleeting thoughts of going back to AA, but quickly

discarded them. If I should decide I need help, I will

consider other alternatives, such as RR, SMART, or, if I feel I need a

support group, maybe SOS. But never again AA. "

Hi Mike

I was thinking abt adding something to this thread, but after reading

what you wrote I " came to believe " that I couldn't express my

thoughts on the subject any better than you just did.

Thanks for your post.

Stay well!

Tom

[Guest guest]

Mike et al.-

In my earlier message, I mentioned about an AAer calling me yesterday. I called her back and told her I had left the program (I thought that was why she was calling - wrongo). I told her that I had uncovered some things about AA that I couldn't live with, and that it was useless for her to listen to my reasons. I gave her the aakills site address and asked her to read about it if she wanted to. The chill I received on the suggestion went through the telephone wire. She said that AA saved her, and there was nothing that would change her mind. That's what *I* thought. She said she had no interest in reading anything negative about AA. Anyway, I feel like a rat, although I know I shouldn't. Feel like I'm suffocating - Those old self-doubts, I am sure. One thing I do know, everyone who knows me will know I left AA in about 1/2 hour or so from now (11:15 a.m. est) - One of my daily meetings. Will see if anyone calls.

phxphun1@...> wrote:

Even the language is part of the programming. I assume by "picking up" you mean drinking - but to my knowledge that phrase only has that meaning in AA. It goes pretty deep, doesn't it? You might even wind up deciding to take a drink or two, as some of us here have for various reasons (eliminate AA "birthday", thumb nose at "program", or just to prove that you can). And if you do, for whatever reason, you'll probably feel some guilt in doing so. You've been programmed to. But don't beat yourself up if it happens. No matter what the result, consider it a learning experience and move on.

I'd been experimenting with occasional drinking myself for a couple months now, and thought I was doing OK, but I really overdid it a couple times within that short span. For me (and each person is different, this may not apply to anyone else) I've determined as a result that the best plan for me is abstinence. While I don't buy in to the "disease" theory, I do believe, from my own experience (both pre-AA and recent), that there are some people who, for whatever reason, cannot reasonably control their alcohol intake after a certain point. Once I start, sometimes there comes a point I cannot stop. Sometimes not, but I can't predict if or when it will happen. Whether that is something innate or something I have learned doesn't really matter - it is just my reality, and I'll deal with it. Perhaps it would be possible to learn to moderate, but I don't see the point in expending the effort now. OTOH, what I have also learned is that I have no reason to fear the relatively small amounts of alcohol in such things as cold and cough medicine, or candy and baked goods. Or even a sip of champagne or wine at a celebration (but just a symbolic sip). I do not believe that even the slightest amount of alcohol, or the flavor of alcohol (such as in cooking and baking, where the alcohol itself is gone and just the flavor remains) will set off uncontrollable cravings and start me on a binge.

Funny thing is, though... after my recent episode of overindulgence, as I was recovering from a hangover, I did have fleeting thoughts of going back to AA, but quickly discarded them. If I should decide I need help, I will consider other alternatives, such as RR, SMART, or, if I feel I need a support group, maybe SOS. But never again AA.

-----Original Message-----From: Janice La

I do think a bit about possibly picking up, and it scares me a bit. That's the programming -

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

Yes it is true that there are some people that have a particular

body chemistry that makes alcohol consumption very unhealthy. I

may be one of those people too. There are people that can't have

dairy products, strawberries, penicillin, etc. without adverse

reactions. Why should alcohol be any different? It's not. I stopped

drinking and using drugs almost two years ago. No AA, no

program, no grand googootwap in the sky, I quit. I have no

cravings. A chocolate with a few drops of brandy in it is not going

to make me spontaneously dash to the liquor store, buy the

biggest bottle of booze I can find, and guzzle it until my eyeballs

pop out. There are certain factors that I take into consideration.

One is that I have been on some very effective medication to

combat depression. The other is I consider the natural

progression of the addiction. It's very likely that I had reached a

threshold my desire to get bombed has naturally vanished. My

living situation is now very different, I have so many other things

to do partying has completely lost its priority. For years I had

done massive quantities of every king of drug there is, every

combination of drugs, explored the outer limits of the twilight

zone, and didn't even get a lousy tee shirt. There is nothing that

I'm going to miss out on.

I tried AA/NA for ten years. It simply does not work; it is a

damaging program. They say that no one it too dumb to " get the

program " not true after ten years it still didn't make a shred of

sense. As for going back to AA, that is not an option for me. It has

been exposed every last bit of the illusion has vanished. You

couldn't get me into another AA meeting at gunpoint; that is not

an exaggeration.

Devin

> Even the language is part of the programming. I assume by

" picking up " you

> mean drinking - but to my knowledge that phrase only has that

meaning in AA.

> It goes pretty deep, doesn't it? You might even wind up

deciding to take a

> drink or two, as some of us here have for various reasons

(eliminate AA

> " birthday " , thumb nose at " program " , or just to prove that you

can). And if

> you do, for whatever reason, you'll probably feel some guilt in

doing so.

> You've been programmed to. But don't beat yourself up if it

happens. No

> matter what the result, consider it a learning experience and

move on.

>

> I'd been experimenting with occasional drinking myself for a

couple months

> now, and thought I was doing OK, but I really overdid it a couple

times

> within that short span. For me (and each person is different,

this may not

> apply to anyone else) I've determined as a result that the best

plan for me

> is abstinence. While I don't buy in to the " disease " theory, I do

believe,

> from my own experience (both pre-AA and recent), that there

are some people

> who, for whatever reason, cannot reasonably control their

alcohol intake

> after a certain point. Once I start, sometimes there comes a

point I cannot

> stop. Sometimes not, but I can't predict if or when it will

happen. Whether

> that is something innate or something I have learned doesn't

really matter -

> it is just my reality, and I'll deal with it. Perhaps it would be

possible

> to learn to moderate, but I don't see the point in expending the

effort now.

> OTOH, what I have also learned is that I have no reason to fear

the

> relatively small amounts of alcohol in such things as cold and

cough

> medicine, or candy and baked goods. Or even a sip of

champagne or wine at a

> celebration (but just a symbolic sip). I do not believe that even

the

> slightest amount of alcohol, or the flavor of alcohol (such as in

cooking

> and baking, where the alcohol itself is gone and just the flavor

remains)

> will set off uncontrollable cravings and start me on a binge.

>

> Funny thing is, though... after my recent episode of

overindulgence, as I

> was recovering from a hangover, I did have fleeting thoughts of

going back

> to AA, but quickly discarded them. If I should decide I need

help, I will

> consider other alternatives, such as RR, SMART, or, if I feel I

need a

> support group, maybe SOS. But never again AA.

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Janice La [mailto:janicelamonica@y...]

>

> I do think a bit about possibly picking up, and it scares me a

bit.

> That's the programming -

[Guest guest]

Devin,

That is sooooo cool. Not another meeting even my gunpoint. Jesus, what

is the freaking matter with people--the whole program doesn't make a

shred of sense to me either. Any time I'd go out on a limb and ask a

stupid question about Higher Powers or why something was supposed to

work I'd get some weird slogan or told that I was too self obesessed

or something.

I talked to the woman who had her AA birthday a couple of days ago.

She called me. Great. Of course, she wanted to know if I, too, would

be celebrating my year sober. I said nope. Then came the uneasy

silence of the recognition that anything I said from here on out would

be recieved by her as from a psychotic.

I could go back to AA now. I could admit my problem. I could own up to

my disease. I could turn myself into to the program and tell them all

what a stark raving mad lunatic I was for ever leaving. I can cry and

hang on every last word of every speaker seeking out some help for my

complusive, self defeating brain. I could wring my hands in

desperation and beg for help because I will have given over any power

I ever had to help myself. I could cry myself to sleep and wake up on

my knees praying for forgiveness and grattitude...

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

kiki

> > Even the language is part of the programming. I assume by

> " picking up " you

> > mean drinking - but to my knowledge that phrase only has that

> meaning in AA.

> > It goes pretty deep, doesn't it? You might even wind up

> deciding to take a

> > drink or two, as some of us here have for various reasons

> (eliminate AA

> > " birthday " , thumb nose at " program " , or just to prove that you

> can). And if

> > you do, for whatever reason, you'll probably feel some guilt in

> doing so.

> > You've been programmed to. But don't beat yourself up if it

> happens. No

> > matter what the result, consider it a learning experience and

> move on.

> >

> > I'd been experimenting with occasional drinking myself for a

> couple months

> > now, and thought I was doing OK, but I really overdid it a couple

> times

> > within that short span. For me (and each person is different,

> this may not

> > apply to anyone else) I've determined as a result that the best

> plan for me

> > is abstinence. While I don't buy in to the " disease " theory, I do

> believe,

> > from my own experience (both pre-AA and recent), that there

> are some people

> > who, for whatever reason, cannot reasonably control their

> alcohol intake

> > after a certain point. Once I start, sometimes there comes a

> point I cannot

> > stop. Sometimes not, but I can't predict if or when it will

> happen. Whether

> > that is something innate or something I have learned doesn't

> really matter -

> > it is just my reality, and I'll deal with it. Perhaps it would be

> possible

> > to learn to moderate, but I don't see the point in expending the

> effort now.

> > OTOH, what I have also learned is that I have no reason to fear

> the

> > relatively small amounts of alcohol in such things as cold and

> cough

> > medicine, or candy and baked goods. Or even a sip of

> champagne or wine at a

> > celebration (but just a symbolic sip). I do not believe that even

> the

> > slightest amount of alcohol, or the flavor of alcohol (such as in

> cooking

> > and baking, where the alcohol itself is gone and just the flavor

> remains)

> > will set off uncontrollable cravings and start me on a binge.

> >

> > Funny thing is, though... after my recent episode of

> overindulgence, as I

> > was recovering from a hangover, I did have fleeting thoughts of

> going back

> > to AA, but quickly discarded them. If I should decide I need

> help, I will

> > consider other alternatives, such as RR, SMART, or, if I feel I

> need a

> > support group, maybe SOS. But never again AA.

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Janice La [mailto:janicelamonica@y...]

> >

> > I do think a bit about possibly picking up, and it scares me

a

> bit.

> > That's the programming -

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Devin. Glad to hear someone else shares that view. In fact, I'd

realized that, or I'd have never quit in the first place. I think reading

some of the messages here and perhaps attempting to prove to myself that I'm

" normal " I decided to try drinking again. It didn't work. No great loss

(other than perhaps a tiny blow to my ego). I hadn't drank for almost 4

years, which I do *not* consider as " lost time " now, so I know I can live

without it. ANd your comparisons to other allergies makes perfect sense.

Only difference is with predictability. Most food/drug allergies are

consistent. Ingest a certain amount and you are virtually guaranteed a

reaction. With alcohol it seems to work differently. Sometimes I could

drink, even to the point of drunkenness, and then stop because I chose to.

Other times I would just sort of go on auto-pilot and continue drinking

until I either ran out or passed out. It's that unpredictability that was

the scariest. Kinda like I was gambling - Am I going to have a great time

tonight? Or am I going to make an ass out of myself (or worse) and have an

all-day hangover the next morning? Anyway, this time around, I realized

pretty quickly that it still isn't worth the gamble, and I think I can close

the book on that chapter of my life once and for all.

Of course this time around it is much easier to use logic and reason to

come to that conclusion. Four years ago when I'd originally quit drinking,

it was after years of 12-pack-a-day drinking, my mind was still pretty foggy

and ripe for molding by the steppers. Hmmm - I just noticed that today,

12/21, was my AA " birthday " . LOL! Anyway, now I know that it is my choice

and responsibility to take care of myself. Personal responsibility... what a

concept.

-----Original Message-----

From: manypaths2

Hi Mike,

Yes it is true that there are some people that have a particular

body chemistry that makes alcohol consumption very unhealthy. I

may be one of those people too.

[Guest guest]

Hi Devin,

As I think someone else points out, alcohl sensitivity doesnt behave

like a real " allergy " . Allergic reactions are also invariably

aversive, not producing cravings for more. I think apparent " loss of

control " is essentially a learned response from overdrinking.

however, it only appears to kick in when the BAL goes over a certain

point, and hence moderate drinking is possible if this critical level

is not exceeded. Also, after a long enough period of abstinence the

conditioning can probably be unlearned. This may take a year or two

however, hence some folks might be better off only atempting

moderation after at least a year of abstinence, as Ellis suggests.

P.

> > Even the language is part of the programming. I assume by

> " picking up " you

> > mean drinking - but to my knowledge that phrase only has that

> meaning in AA.

> > It goes pretty deep, doesn't it? You might even wind up

> deciding to take a

> > drink or two, as some of us here have for various reasons

> (eliminate AA

> > " birthday " , thumb nose at " program " , or just to prove that you

> can). And if

> > you do, for whatever reason, you'll probably feel some guilt in

> doing so.

> > You've been programmed to. But don't beat yourself up if it

> happens. No

> > matter what the result, consider it a learning experience and

> move on.

> >

> > I'd been experimenting with occasional drinking myself for a

> couple months

> > now, and thought I was doing OK, but I really overdid it a couple

> times

> > within that short span. For me (and each person is different,

> this may not

> > apply to anyone else) I've determined as a result that the best

> plan for me

> > is abstinence. While I don't buy in to the " disease " theory, I do

> believe,

> > from my own experience (both pre-AA and recent), that there

> are some people

> > who, for whatever reason, cannot reasonably control their

> alcohol intake

> > after a certain point. Once I start, sometimes there comes a

> point I cannot

> > stop. Sometimes not, but I can't predict if or when it will

> happen. Whether

> > that is something innate or something I have learned doesn't

> really matter -

> > it is just my reality, and I'll deal with it. Perhaps it would be

> possible

> > to learn to moderate, but I don't see the point in expending the

> effort now.

> > OTOH, what I have also learned is that I have no reason to fear

> the

> > relatively small amounts of alcohol in such things as cold and

> cough

> > medicine, or candy and baked goods. Or even a sip of

> champagne or wine at a

> > celebration (but just a symbolic sip). I do not believe that even

> the

> > slightest amount of alcohol, or the flavor of alcohol (such as in

> cooking

> > and baking, where the alcohol itself is gone and just the flavor

> remains)

> > will set off uncontrollable cravings and start me on a binge.

> >

> > Funny thing is, though... after my recent episode of

> overindulgence, as I

> > was recovering from a hangover, I did have fleeting thoughts of

> going back

> > to AA, but quickly discarded them. If I should decide I need

> help, I will

> > consider other alternatives, such as RR, SMART, or, if I feel I

> need a

> > support group, maybe SOS. But never again AA.

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Janice La [mailto:janicelamonica@y...]

> >

> > I do think a bit about possibly picking up, and it scares me

a

> bit.

> > That's the programming -

[Guest guest]

hello, watts_pete, I think you have teh right idea when you referred to

Apparent " loss of control " and that it " only appears to kick inn when the BAL

goes over a certain point. I think it is just from the fact that alcohol

diminishes judgement. AA makes it seem so mysterious. Just goes to show

philosophy is full of it.

Sinecerely, Drew.

P.S. Merry Christmas.

watts_pete wrote:

> Hi Devin,

>

> As I think someone else points out, alcohl sensitivity doesnt behave

> like a real " allergy " . Allergic reactions are also invariably

> aversive, not producing cravings for more. I think apparent " loss of

> control " is essentially a learned response from overdrinking.

> however, it only appears to kick in when the BAL goes over a certain

> point, and hence moderate drinking is possible if this critical level

> is not exceeded. Also, after a long enough period of abstinence the

> conditioning can probably be unlearned. This may take a year or two

> however, hence some folks might be better off only atempting

> moderation after at least a year of abstinence, as Ellis suggests.

> P.

>

>

> > > Even the language is part of the programming. I assume by

> > " picking up " you

> > > mean drinking - but to my knowledge that phrase only has that

> > meaning in AA.

> > > It goes pretty deep, doesn't it? You might even wind up

> > deciding to take a

> > > drink or two, as some of us here have for various reasons

> > (eliminate AA

> > > " birthday " , thumb nose at " program " , or just to prove that you

> > can). And if

> > > you do, for whatever reason, you'll probably feel some guilt in

> > doing so.

> > > You've been programmed to. But don't beat yourself up if it

> > happens. No

> > > matter what the result, consider it a learning experience and

> > move on.

> > >

> > > I'd been experimenting with occasional drinking myself for a

> > couple months

> > > now, and thought I was doing OK, but I really overdid it a couple

> > times

> > > within that short span. For me (and each person is different,

> > this may not

> > > apply to anyone else) I've determined as a result that the best

> > plan for me

> > > is abstinence. While I don't buy in to the " disease " theory, I do

> > believe,

> > > from my own experience (both pre-AA and recent), that there

> > are some people

> > > who, for whatever reason, cannot reasonably control their

> > alcohol intake

> > > after a certain point. Once I start, sometimes there comes a

> > point I cannot

> > > stop. Sometimes not, but I can't predict if or when it will

> > happen. Whether

> > > that is something innate or something I have learned doesn't

> > really matter -

> > > it is just my reality, and I'll deal with it. Perhaps it would be

> > possible

> > > to learn to moderate, but I don't see the point in expending the

> > effort now.

> > > OTOH, what I have also learned is that I have no reason to fear

> > the

> > > relatively small amounts of alcohol in such things as cold and

> > cough

> > > medicine, or candy and baked goods. Or even a sip of

> > champagne or wine at a

> > > celebration (but just a symbolic sip). I do not believe that even

> > the

> > > slightest amount of alcohol, or the flavor of alcohol (such as in

> > cooking

> > > and baking, where the alcohol itself is gone and just the flavor

> > remains)

> > > will set off uncontrollable cravings and start me on a binge.

> > >

> > > Funny thing is, though... after my recent episode of

> > overindulgence, as I

> > > was recovering from a hangover, I did have fleeting thoughts of

> > going back

> > > to AA, but quickly discarded them. If I should decide I need

> > help, I will

> > > consider other alternatives, such as RR, SMART, or, if I feel I

> > need a

> > > support group, maybe SOS. But never again AA.

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: Janice La [mailto:janicelamonica@y...]

> > >

> > > I do think a bit about possibly picking up, and it scares me

> a

> > bit.

> > > That's the programming -

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

RUN LIKE HELL!

PINK FLOYD

THE LUNATIC IS IN MY HEAD/THERE'S SOMEONE IN MY HEAD BUT IT'S NOT ME