Abbadun re Big Book

[Guest guest]

>

> I mention that the program should follow the writtings in the books, like:

>

> 1. Respect other beliefs and opions

>

------------------

Excuse me, Abbadun, but I find no evidence that the Big Book encourages

" respect for other beliefs and opinions " . Quite the opposite in fact -- haven't

you read the grossly insulting chapter 4 to the agnostic?? No " respect "

whatsoever there -- dozens of insults hurled at anyone who does not believe in

God-as-Bill-understood-him, such as " rather vain of us, wasn't it? " for people

who do not believe in an all-powerful Creator, and the use of the word

" prejudice " numerous times for people uninterested in Higher Power theology --

and altogether the insulting claim that people only " think " they are atheists,

but will soon learn the Truth (as Bill sees it).

And let's not forget the chapter " To Wives " , which was written by Bill

himself, pretending to be a woman -- how " respectful " of others' opinions was

he, when he didn't even trust his own wife enough to " allow " her to write that

chapter and express her own opinions???

Perhaps the present-day steppers are even more obnoxious and cultish than

in Bill's day -- but I hardly think the Big Book is any paragon of

" open-mindedness " or science or therapy or anything else but religious cultism

itself.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

> Rita

>

> The passages is in the books. The BB and As Bill Sees It looks at

these

> other opinions and beliefs as shortcomings, but states that they

are a

> person's right.

Isn't it " nice " of the AAers to believe that others have a right to

their opinions even though they see those beliefs or non-belief

as " shortcomings " ? In one meeting, I had heard some born-again

Christian tell a Jewish woman that she would never stay sober unless

she accepted Christ as her personal savior. I only shudder to think

how these cultists are treating their Muslim AA/NAers after 9-11.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

[Guest guest]

abbadun -

"As Bill Sees It looks at these other opinions and beliefs as shortcomings" - That's just it. Just keep coming back, they said, the implication being that my thinking was wrong and needed to be straightened out.

"Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others" - Again with the shortcomings garbage and the implication that the the person one is feeling tolerant toward is wrong. How arrogant is that? "When they come in, most of their A.A. group is sober, and they are drunk. Therefore, the group is a`Higher Power'. That's a good enough start, and most of them do progress from there." - AAers appear to be tolerant, but I truly believe that is only because they assume that a "heretic" like me will eventually come around to the BB way of thinking. What makes me say that? I now realize that my small "revelations" in understanding certain parts of the program were not in the least miraculous. I never before believed that I could be brainwashed into believing something that had previously made no sense to me. "Keep coming back" - and I did - and kept hearing the same thing over and over. No miracles here. I enjoy your messages - Gets me to thinking, which I'm allowed to do here and anywhere else I wish.

Janice

abbadun _ wrote: RitaThe passages is in the books. The BB and As Bill Sees It looks at these other opinions and beliefs as shortcomings, but states that they are a person's right. It also always make the the person who wants these rights as active alcoholics. Also having a GOD complex Bill W. thought that all alcoholics had the same emotions, attiudes, and faults as himself.Here are some examplesAlcoholics Anonymous Pages 19-20 Of necessity there will have to be discussion of matters medical, psychiatric, social, and religious. We are aware that these matters are, from their very nature, controversial. Nothing would please us so much as to write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal. Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers , depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs.As Bill Sees It Page 276 A Higher Power for Atheists"I have had many experiences with atheists, mostly good. Everybody in A.A. has the right to his own opinion. It is much better to maintain an open and tolerant society than it is to suppress any small disturbances their opinions might occasion. Actually, I don't know anybody who went off and died of alcoholism because some atheist's opinions on the cosmos."But I do always entreat these folks to look to a `Higher Power' -- namely, their own group. When they come in, most of their A.A. group is sober, and they are drunk. Therefore, the group is a`Higher Power'. That's a good enough start, and most of them do progress from there. I know how they feel, because I was once that way myself."LETTER, 1962As Bill Sees It Page 158 Tolerance in Practice"We found that the principles of tolerance and love had to be emphasized in actual practice. We can never say (or insinuate) to anyone that he must agree to our formula or be excommunicated. The atheist may stand up in an A.A. meeting still denying the Deity, yet reporting how vastely he has been changed in attitude and outlook. Much experience tells us he will presently change his mind about God, but nobody tells him he must do so."In order to carry the principle of inclusiveness and tolerance still further, we make no religious requirement of anyone. All people having an alcoholic problem who wish to get rid of it and so make a happy adjustment with the circumstances of their lives, become A.A. members by simply associating with us. Nothing but sincerity is needed. But we do not demand even this."In such an atmosphere the orthodox, the unorthodox, and the unbeliever mix happily and usefully together. An opportunity for spiritual growth is open to all."LETTER, 1940>>Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Abbadun re Big Book>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:20:32 -0000>>> >> > I mention that the program should follow the writtings in the books, >like:> >> > 1. Respect other beliefs and opions> >>------------------>> Excuse me, Abbadun, but I find no evidence that the Big Book >encourages "respect for other beliefs and opinions". Quite the opposite in >fact -- haven't you read the grossly insulting chapter 4 to the agnostic?? >No "respect" whatsoever there -- dozens of insults hurled at anyone who >does not believe in God-as-Bill-understood-him, such as "rather vain of us, >wasn't it?" for people who do not believe in an all-powerful Creator, and >the use of the word "prejudice" numerous times for people uninterested in >Higher Power theology -- and altogether the insulting claim that people >only "think" they are atheists, but will soon learn the Truth (as Bill sees >it).>> And let's not forget the chapter "To Wives", which was written by >Bill himself, pretending to be a woman -- how "respectful" of others' >opinions was he, when he didn't even trust his own wife enough to "allow" >her to write that chapter and express her own opinions???>> Perhaps the present-day steppers are even more obnoxious and cultish >than in Bill's day -- but I hardly think the Big Book is any paragon of >"open-mindedness" or science or therapy or anything else but religious >cultism itself.>>~Rita>====================================================================Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol or morphine or idealism.--- Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), Swiss psychiatrist, founded psychology_________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

> > I mention that the program should follow the writings in the

books, like:

> >

> > 1. Respect other beliefs and opions

read we agnostics and tell me how much respect bill wilson had

for the beliefs and opinions of agnostics and atheists. he just

dedicates a whole chapter to tell us how foolish, insane,

shallow and stubborn they are.

and even though steppers pay lip service to a HP being anything

you want and how some atheist are in AA, yadda yadda yadda,

its funny how that chapter attacking non believers STILL is there

in a book, for Program which newcomers are told isn't about

god. no other model for sobriety feels its necessary to attack non

believers. they also are accused of being by newcomers (for 60

years) religious by the courts either.

[Guest guest]

dear abbadun -

Once I decided that AA's program was not for me (and it's been only a week since I made that decision), it became clear to me pretty fast that I couldn't in good conscience go to any more meetings. Even so, I went to an open meeting yesterday with an AA friend, and it was a huge mistake. There was a woman there two hours out of detox who was told by hospital personnel that if she didn't go to an AA meeting immediately, there was a 90% chance that she would drink again. She was scared stiff. At that same meeting, an old-timer announced that he knew in his heart that for alcoholics, it was AA or die, and of course everyone shook their heads in agreement. Listening to the shares, and REALLY listening to everyone (without thought of sharing myself which constricts my attention span), is really too innervating for me, especially since I had identified myself as being a member of AA only a week ago. It's like I'm horrified with myself for being so gullible. I don't know how you can do it - I'm sure you have at least some knowledge as to what AA is really all about, so it's hard for me to understand how you are able to get something beneficial from meetings.

Janice

wrote: Hi dmarcootI know, but the only mistake Bill W. made was putting those words about tolelorance and respect in his writings. I can quote those like a parot when confronted by a AA true believer. I find it works good with members that have a conscience (deep down I do not think they are comfortable with some aspects of AA).I know when I get a little more sobriety I will make a wider break with AA, but I am comfortable right now, because I will follow AA only so far.abadun>>Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Abbadun re Big Book>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:47:22 -0000>>> > > I mention that the program should follow the writings in the>books, like:> > >> > > 1. Respect other beliefs and opions>>read we agnostics and tell me how much respect bill wilson had>for the beliefs and opinions of agnostics and atheists. he just>dedicates a whole chapter to tell us how foolish, insane,>shallow and stubborn they are.>>and even though steppers pay lip service to a HP being anything>you want and how some atheist are in AA, yadda yadda yadda,>its funny how that chapter attacking non believers STILL is there>in a book, for Program which newcomers are told isn't about>god. no other model for sobriety feels its necessary to attack non>believers. they also are accused of being by newcomers (for 60>years) religious by the courts either.>====================================================================Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol or morphine or idealism.--- Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), Swiss psychiatrist, founded psychology_________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com