Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 So, let's say after 30 years, he picks up - AA says "WE TOLD YOU SO!!! NOW YOU HAVE TO START ALL OVER, AND MAYBE THIS TIME YOU WILL LISTEN TO US AND FOLLOW THE PROGRAM!!!!" This thinking is not off at all - I know of a few people who had several years and picked up for whatever reason. They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had years seems to mean nothing to them And the reason that they are so demoralized isn't because they picked up the drink, it's because of their participation into the brainwashing of AA. If they had never been involved with the *program*, they probably wouldn't have run right out to prove what they had been hearing and babbling for so long. They would probably have either drank like a responsible adult or they would have got hammered, woke up feeling like a piece of shit and remembered why they had decided to quit that stuff after all and moved on. Demoralizing through AA - It works if you work it! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 That's just part of the humiliation process. " See what you get for not being a good cult member? " And I've seen this taken to ridiculous extremes, too. Not someone who went on a week-long bender. There was a woman in an AA meeting I went to who had like 6 or 7 years, and she *accidentally* picked up the wrong drink at a party. Upon the first sip she realized it contained alcohol. After sharing this at the meeting and asking what she should do, she was convinced to " do the right thing " and discard her years of sobriety and " re-qualify " . And of course she was admonished over being in a " slippery place " (a party) in the first place. " Programming " They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had years seems to mean nothing to them. A good part of my disallusionment with AA stems from this thinking. Years of trying to be a " good " person totally wiped out. What a hidious joke. Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Hi Mike, everyone Several months ago at my treatment facility, I saw a woman with multiple personality disorder humiliated before a large group of pts and family because one of her " selves " had gone out on Nyquil. She was browbeaten by the counselor to the point of tears and had to relinquish her hard-won 9 months of sobriety. I later saw her at several meetings, sullenly accepting newcomer chips. Kafka on acid could not have come up with this scenario. If anyone can explain the ethical basis of accepting this woman's $3500 for " treatment " for her " alcoholism " , I would be pleased to hear it. I just can't wrap my mind around this concept. Oh well, back to the madness . . . Regards, Tom > > That's just part of the humiliation process. " See what you get for not being > a good cult member? " > > And I've seen this taken to ridiculous extremes, too. Not someone who went > on a week-long bender. There was a woman in an AA meeting I went to who had > like 6 or 7 years, and she *accidentally* picked up the wrong drink at a > party. Upon the first sip she realized it contained alcohol. After sharing > this at the meeting and asking what she should do, she was convinced to " do > the right thing " and discard her years of sobriety and " re- qualify " . And of > course she was admonished over being in a " slippery place " (a party) in the > first place. > > " Programming " > > > They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had years > seems to mean nothing to them. A good part of my disallusionment with AA > stems from this thinking. Years of trying to be a " good " person totally > wiped out. What a hidious joke. > Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 the ironic thing is bill wilson was consider sober even though he tripped on lsd in 60's to get in touch with god. he felt lsd broke down the will to accept gods will. i ebt no one told him to go back to day one. hell if i was in AA and i told someone i had a drink for first time in 5 years, and they said get your 24 hr chip, i would say " fuck you! what is this? a pissing contest? " and of course, it is. -- In 12-step-free@y..., " thesobrietist " wrote: > Hi Mike, everyone > > Several months ago at my treatment facility, I saw a woman with > multiple personality disorder humiliated before a large group of pts > and family because one of her " selves " had gone out on Nyquil. She > was browbeaten by the counselor to the point of tears and had to > relinquish her hard-won 9 months of sobriety. I later saw her at > several meetings, sullenly accepting newcomer chips. > > Kafka on acid could not have come up with this scenario. > > If anyone can explain the ethical basis of accepting this woman's > $3500 for " treatment " for her " alcoholism " , I would be pleased to > hear it. I just can't wrap my mind around this concept. > > Oh well, back to the madness . . . > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > > > That's just part of the humiliation process. " See what you get for > not being > > a good cult member? " > > > > And I've seen this taken to ridiculous extremes, too. Not someone > who went > > on a week-long bender. There was a woman in an AA meeting I went to > who had > > like 6 or 7 years, and she *accidentally* picked up the wrong drink > at a > > party. Upon the first sip she realized it contained alcohol. After > sharing > > this at the meeting and asking what she should do, she was > convinced to " do > > the right thing " and discard her years of sobriety and " re- > qualify " . And of > > course she was admonished over being in a " slippery place " (a > party) in the > > first place. > > > > " Programming " > > > > > > They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had > years > > seems to mean nothing to them. A good part of my disallusionment > with AA > > stems from this thinking. Years of trying to be a " good " person > totally > > wiped out. What a hidious joke. > > Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 If my sponsor was doing acid, I think I'd get a new sponsor... if the guy who invented my program was doing acid, I think I would get a new program. " Programming " > > > > > > They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had > years > > seems to mean nothing to them. A good part of my disallusionment > with AA > > stems from this thinking. Years of trying to be a " good " person > totally > > wiped out. What a hidious joke. > > Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 I don't know if anyone saw the 20/20 special the other night, where they interviewed the husband of the woman in Texas who drowned her 5 babies. As the interview progressed (btw the husband is supporting his wife through this nightmare) the husband talked about how his wife had been placed in a psychiatric unit and *then* for some reason she was put into a substance abuse program. The husband was horrified because as he said , you couldn't find a more squeaky clean individual. She had never smoked, drank or taken any illegal substances in her life. Obviously he knows she is a psychotic woman but is outraged that she was put into a program which had absolutely no relevance to her most disturbing and dangerous problems. kisses Tom Boy At 03:06 PM 12/12/01 +0000, you wrote: Hi Mike, everyone Several months ago at my treatment facility, I saw a woman with multiple personality disorder humiliated before a large group of pts and family because one of her " selves " had gone out on Nyquil. She was browbeaten by the counselor to the point of tears and had to relinquish her hard-won 9 months of sobriety. I later saw her at several meetings, sullenly accepting newcomer chips. Kafka on acid could not have come up with this scenario. If anyone can explain the ethical basis of accepting this woman's $3500 for " treatment " for her " alcoholism " , I would be pleased to hear it. I just can't wrap my mind around this concept. Oh well, back to the madness . . . Regards, Tom > > That's just part of the humiliation process. " See what you get for not being > a good cult member? " > > And I've seen this taken to ridiculous extremes, too. Not someone who went > on a week-long bender. There was a woman in an AA meeting I went to who had > like 6 or 7 years, and she *accidentally* picked up the wrong drink at a > party. Upon the first sip she realized it contained alcohol. After sharing > this at the meeting and asking what she should do, she was convinced to " do > the right thing " and discard her years of sobriety and " re- qualify " . And of > course she was admonished over being in a " slippery place " (a party) in the > first place. > > " Programming " > > > They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had years > seems to mean nothing to them. A good part of my disallusionment with AA > stems from this thinking. Years of trying to be a " good " person totally > wiped out. What a hidious joke. > Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Hi Tom, Whether Multiple Personality Disorder actually exists is itself a debatable question. 70% of reported cases are in the US or Canada, suggesting a " culturally specific " syndrome. Ppl may actually be encouraged to develop the symptoms and give names to their " selves " . On the other hand, it may exist and skeptics, such as my ex sponsor, are wrong. It's in the DSM and " Alcoholism/Addictive disease " is not. I met one Canadian girl who said that only one of her personas did drugs. Perhaps only the Nyquil using persona should accept the newbie chip, the others could keep their sobriety date... P. > > > > That's just part of the humiliation process. " See what you get for > not being > > a good cult member? " > > > > And I've seen this taken to ridiculous extremes, too. Not someone > who went > > on a week-long bender. There was a woman in an AA meeting I went to > who had > > like 6 or 7 years, and she *accidentally* picked up the wrong drink > at a > > party. Upon the first sip she realized it contained alcohol. After > sharing > > this at the meeting and asking what she should do, she was > convinced to " do > > the right thing " and discard her years of sobriety and " re- > qualify " . And of > > course she was admonished over being in a " slippery place " (a > party) in the > > first place. > > > > " Programming " > > > > > > They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had > years > > seems to mean nothing to them. A good part of my disallusionment > with AA > > stems from this thinking. Years of trying to be a " good " person > totally > > wiped out. What a hidious joke. > > Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Pete, you said, " Ppl may actually be encouraged to develop the symptoms and give names to their " selves " . " Same is true for alcoholics, especially young ones. " Programming " > > > > > > They are so demoralized coming back that the fact that they had > years > > seems to mean nothing to them. A good part of my disallusionment > with AA > > stems from this thinking. Years of trying to be a " good " person > totally > > wiped out. What a hidious joke. > > Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 As to why it's so much more common in North America, or at least more commonly diagnosed, I suppose it might have something to do with the popularity of _The_Minds_of__ _Milligan_. A lot of people read that book or saw the movie, and the idea of multiple personalities entered the popular culture. Someone already prone to living in a fantasy world might be more likely to take that extra step if the idea of multiple personalities in one body already exists in the culture. Also could be it is just as prevalent in other countries, but not diagnosed. FWIW, my mother has DID, and she has other people, but not to the extent that they take over her life. They have just helped her cope with extreme situations, such as child abuse. She went through some really good counseling, and now she is finally whole. These other people helped her get through a hellish childhood. Myself, I know what it is like to simply "go away" to make the pain stop. This is also dissociative behavior. But I don't have other people. L Phoenix, AZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 > If my sponsor was doing acid, I think I'd get a new sponsor... if the > guy who invented my program was doing acid, I think I would get a new > program. In fairness I think it should be said that was pressured to stop his experimenting by AA members, and the official claim is that he did it to see if it could help *other ppl* rather than to help himself. He even " tried some on Lois " (his phraseology) suggesting he might even have given some to her without her knowing! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 > Pete, you said, " Ppl may actually be > encouraged to develop the symptoms and give names to their " selves " . " > Same is true for alcoholics, especially young ones. Yep - And Telling teen drug users they can never drink socially and all kinds of crap. Ive seen steppers debating about whether drug users should be allowed in AA and one said " as Im an addict Im *automatically* an alcoholic " (emphasis mine). Huh? where the hell did she get that stupid idea? As if I didnt know! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Ever notice that most of the people who predict your doom in AA have less time than you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill W. " They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. they also showed how he was disappointed when he visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? What? Nobody can be known but him? I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 I LOVED LOVED LOVED AND LOVED that movie when I was active in AA. I would sob with joy over how Bill W. had saved my life and how grateful I was to the " fellowship " oh those were the days my friends. An interesting note. Biography has wanted to do a piece on Bill W. for years and years but G.S.O and WSAA keep refusing it because of the " anonymity at the level of press, radio and t.v. " issues. kisses Tom Boy At 11:53 AM 12/12/01 -0800, you wrote: i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill W. " They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. they also showed how he was disappointed when he visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? What? Nobody can be known but him? I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 God, I love you people! This site is like a dream come true! Ten years ago I couldn't have imagined this and I was vice president of an Austin, TX., computer company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 where did you find this info pete? > > If my sponsor was doing acid, I think I'd get a new sponsor... if > the > > guy who invented my program was doing acid, I think I would get a > new > > program. > > In fairness I think it should be said that was pressured to > stop his experimenting by AA members, and the official claim is that > he did it to see if it could help *other ppl* rather than to help > himself. He even " tried some on Lois " (his phraseology) suggesting > he might even have given some to her without her knowing! > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 where did you find this info pete? > > If my sponsor was doing acid, I think I'd get a new sponsor... if > the > > guy who invented my program was doing acid, I think I would get a > new > > program. > > In fairness I think it should be said that was pressured to > stop his experimenting by AA members, and the official claim is that > he did it to see if it could help *other ppl* rather than to help > himself. He even " tried some on Lois " (his phraseology) suggesting > he might even have given some to her without her knowing! > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 the story was convincing because it is propagand a with a built in audience which wouldn't stand for the truth. did it say he was on belladonna in treatment when he had his vision of god? or that next day the oxford group cult paid him a visit? did it say he cheated on hsi wife, used LSD, tricked his wife and others into believing he could channel spirits, that he wrote BB mainly to make a profit? that his family still gets royalties to this day from those bb sales? or that they had to lock up thier spokesman ina basement foir 3 days so he would be sober for first AA radio interview? no, did didnt think it would. -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Rene E. " wrote: > i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was > aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill > W. " > They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be > famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. > they also showed how he was disappointed when he > visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized > him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be > removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? > What? Nobody can be known but him? > > I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 there must be another reason, he hasnt had anonymity since the day he died. the very next day the papers had his obit as founder of AA, not to mention the movie based on his life. so anonymity reasons dont make any sense. > >i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was > >aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill > >W. " > >They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be > >famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. > >they also showed how he was disappointed when he > >visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized > >him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be > >removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? > > What? Nobody can be known but him? > > > >I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 How do GSO, WSAA and such have any authority to prevent anyone from making an autobiography about anyone?? Re: " Programming " there must be another reason, he hasnt had anonymity since the day he died. the very next day the papers had his obit as founder of AA, not to mention the movie based on his life. so anonymity reasons dont make any sense. > >i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was > >aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill > >W. " > >They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be > >famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. > >they also showed how he was disappointed when he > >visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized > >him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be > >removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? > > What? Nobody can be known but him? > > > >I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Yeah, I know it doesn't make sense but that is the reason that WSAA /GSO keeps giving the biography people. Go figure huh? kisses Tom Boy At 09:04 PM 12/12/01 +0000, you wrote: there must be another reason, he hasnt had anonymity since the day he died. the very next day the papers had his obit as founder of AA, not to mention the movie based on his life. so anonymity reasons dont make any sense. > >i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was > >aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill > >W. " > >They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be > >famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. > >they also showed how he was disappointed when he > >visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized > >him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be > >removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? > > What? Nobody can be known but him? > > > >I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 hmmm just had a thought. I wonder if the reason they keep refusing is because of Biography's excellent reputation for documentaries. They would feel the need to tell the stories of infidelity, lying, cheating, lsd, channelling and all that kinda stuff. Now gosh darn it we wouldn't want that now would we. kisses Tom Boy At 09:04 PM 12/12/01 +0000, you wrote: there must be another reason, he hasnt had anonymity since the day he died. the very next day the papers had his obit as founder of AA, not to mention the movie based on his life. so anonymity reasons dont make any sense. > >i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was > >aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill > >W. " > >They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be > >famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. > >they also showed how he was disappointed when he > >visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized > >him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be > >removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? > > What? Nobody can be known but him? > > > >I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 They would need AA to help them with the accuracy of it and of course AA has the " not at the level of press radio and tv " tradition and any reputable news source is going to respect that because AA is so well respected and we wouldn't want to do anything to hurt it. kisses Tom Boy At 04:06 PM 12/12/01 -0500, you wrote: How do GSO, WSAA and such have any authority to prevent anyone from making an autobiography about anyone?? Re: " Programming " there must be another reason, he hasnt had anonymity since the day he died. the very next day the papers had his obit as founder of AA, not to mention the movie based on his life. so anonymity reasons dont make any sense. > >i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was > >aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill > >W. " > >They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be > >famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. > >they also showed how he was disappointed when he > >visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized > >him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be > >removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? > > What? Nobody can be known but him? > > > >I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Why would they need AA? There are plenty of books out there about him. There are plenty of people who knew him. The show is about him, not AA, it is a biography of a person, not a cult. Anyway, maybe those organizations can somehow impede the biographical process, but I just wonder how they can, legally. I would be surprised if they even want to do a biography on that guy. Re: " Programming " there must be another reason, he hasnt had anonymity since the day he died. the very next day the papers had his obit as founder of AA, not to mention the movie based on his life. so anonymity reasons dont make any sense. > >i just finished watching a movie about Bill W. It was > >aired here I Denver. The movie is " My name is Bill > >W. " > >They showed how he was compulsively wanting to be > >famous and or rich yet his drunkenness overcame him. > >they also showed how he was disappointed when he > >visited a California AA meeting and nobody recognized > >him. lol yeah right! ultimately, his name should be > >removed from the AA book...I thought he was anonymous? > > What? Nobody can be known but him? > > > >I almost had an AA relapse...the story was very convincing. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 At 12:01 PM 12/12/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > >I LOVED LOVED LOVED AND LOVED that movie when I was active in AA. I would sob with joy over how Bill W. had saved my life and how grateful I was to the " fellowship " oh those were the days my friends. As I recall, this was 1990, and it was a " Great Thing " for AA, since so many new people would come to the program and get their lives saved by us. I didn't notice any significant increase in newcomers at meetings. >An interesting note. Biography has wanted to do a piece on Bill W. for years and years but G.S.O and WSAA keep refusing it because of the " anonymity at the level of press, radio and t.v. " issues. So, does anyone really need the 'permission' or cooperation of GSO or AAWS to do a biography of Bill (excuse me, " Bill W. " )? >kisses >Tom Boy > ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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