Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 At 01:20 PM 11/27/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > " Take the good and leave the rest " is XA slogan crap-o-la. I haven't done anything that needs to be " patched up " and there isn't any " damaged relations " between this individual and myself. There is plenty wrong with making nice and " patching things up " when I haven't done anything wrong. I don't know what's going on with the other posters, I had the same reaction to " why don't you make amends " , I though " for what " (I reread the original to see if I missed something) and " why say that in AA language " ? Perhaps because one can't think of other words for it? You're really kicking ass at coming back to these comments. Congratulations. It took me many years to think " AA dogma " when I heard something I had been programmed to believe was " universal spiritual truth. " >kisses >Tom Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 thanks, that does mean a lot to me. It isn't easy, trust me. As you know I have been in XA programs since 14 (am 43 now) and I have been brainwashed to " make nice " for 30 years by some very " loving " XA members. Each time I challenge, each time I question, each time I curse at the atrocities that have been done and each time I cry out in rage over this rape of my soul, I become stronger. kisses Tom Boy At 04:42 PM 27/11/01 -0500, Ben Bradley wrote: At 01:20 PM 11/27/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > You're really kicking ass at coming back to these comments. Congratulations. It took me many years to think " AA dogma " when I heard something I had been programmed to believe was " universal spiritual truth. " http://listen.to/benbradley - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 thanks, that does mean a lot to me. It isn't easy, trust me. As you know I have been in XA programs since 14 (am 43 now) and I have been brainwashed to " make nice " for 30 years by some very " loving " XA members. Each time I challenge, each time I question, each time I curse at the atrocities that have been done and each time I cry out in rage over this rape of my soul, I become stronger. kisses Tom Boy At 04:42 PM 27/11/01 -0500, Ben Bradley wrote: At 01:20 PM 11/27/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > You're really kicking ass at coming back to these comments. Congratulations. It took me many years to think " AA dogma " when I heard something I had been programmed to believe was " universal spiritual truth. " http://listen.to/benbradley - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 I can no longer make it my responsibility to fix up the wrongs of others. I have been " trained " to do this for 30 years. I have been taught to " make nice " , help others be comfortable, be there for people, help until it hurts, carry the message, practice these principles, ad nauseum. I have been conditioned to be the classic " caretaker " . On my journey to recovery from the cult experience, I no longer can take on the responsibility of " healing " others. I cannot make it my responsibility to " carry the message " to this individual. Today I am responsible for my own behaviour and actions (like you have stated) and so is this man. He will find his answers on his journey and I must respect his right to privacy and freedom to make his choices and his decisions. If he ever wants to talk to me (we always have our shallow " small talk " when I run into him) and has any questions about why I am so damn happy, I may or may not tell him why. Because for the last 30 frickin' years ,I have been conditioned to believe that I don't have the right to privacy. Guess what ? now I know that I deserve privacy. and I will choose to tell people what I want and when I want. I also know that I don't need advice from someone else and perhaps that is the hardest thing for me to tell people that I don't need your advice , I don't want your advice and I never asked for your advice. kisses Tom Boy At 05:27 PM 27/11/01 -0500, k9pal999@... wrote: Tomboy: I see your point. I took the suggested ammends as sarcasm but a true suggestion. It is not your responsibility to make ammends for the cult. However, as a human being it might be compassionate to let this man know that you thought the meeting was inappropriate and understand how difficult it was for him or how uncomfortable it made him feel. It may be the only helpful thing he'll ever get from having associated himself with AA. People who dissent with the cult frequently feel isolated, guilty and just plain wrong unless they are very firm in their convictions. I can't tell you how many people, myself included, who have capitulated because of the pressure to conform. I feel liberated today in that I take responsibility for my own abstinence and behavior. The very first thing a newcomer gets is all the BS about dying if they don't stay, and there's no other way, you know what drill I'm talking about. Just a thought. They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Jan In a message dated 11/27/01 1:15:02 PM Central Standard Time, tomboy@... writes: First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make & quot;amends & quot;, that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 I can no longer make it my responsibility to fix up the wrongs of others. I have been " trained " to do this for 30 years. I have been taught to " make nice " , help others be comfortable, be there for people, help until it hurts, carry the message, practice these principles, ad nauseum. I have been conditioned to be the classic " caretaker " . On my journey to recovery from the cult experience, I no longer can take on the responsibility of " healing " others. I cannot make it my responsibility to " carry the message " to this individual. Today I am responsible for my own behaviour and actions (like you have stated) and so is this man. He will find his answers on his journey and I must respect his right to privacy and freedom to make his choices and his decisions. If he ever wants to talk to me (we always have our shallow " small talk " when I run into him) and has any questions about why I am so damn happy, I may or may not tell him why. Because for the last 30 frickin' years ,I have been conditioned to believe that I don't have the right to privacy. Guess what ? now I know that I deserve privacy. and I will choose to tell people what I want and when I want. I also know that I don't need advice from someone else and perhaps that is the hardest thing for me to tell people that I don't need your advice , I don't want your advice and I never asked for your advice. kisses Tom Boy At 05:27 PM 27/11/01 -0500, k9pal999@... wrote: Tomboy: I see your point. I took the suggested ammends as sarcasm but a true suggestion. It is not your responsibility to make ammends for the cult. However, as a human being it might be compassionate to let this man know that you thought the meeting was inappropriate and understand how difficult it was for him or how uncomfortable it made him feel. It may be the only helpful thing he'll ever get from having associated himself with AA. People who dissent with the cult frequently feel isolated, guilty and just plain wrong unless they are very firm in their convictions. I can't tell you how many people, myself included, who have capitulated because of the pressure to conform. I feel liberated today in that I take responsibility for my own abstinence and behavior. The very first thing a newcomer gets is all the BS about dying if they don't stay, and there's no other way, you know what drill I'm talking about. Just a thought. They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Jan In a message dated 11/27/01 1:15:02 PM Central Standard Time, tomboy@... writes: First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make & quot;amends & quot;, that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 I can no longer make it my responsibility to fix up the wrongs of others. I have been " trained " to do this for 30 years. I have been taught to " make nice " , help others be comfortable, be there for people, help until it hurts, carry the message, practice these principles, ad nauseum. I have been conditioned to be the classic " caretaker " . On my journey to recovery from the cult experience, I no longer can take on the responsibility of " healing " others. I cannot make it my responsibility to " carry the message " to this individual. Today I am responsible for my own behaviour and actions (like you have stated) and so is this man. He will find his answers on his journey and I must respect his right to privacy and freedom to make his choices and his decisions. If he ever wants to talk to me (we always have our shallow " small talk " when I run into him) and has any questions about why I am so damn happy, I may or may not tell him why. Because for the last 30 frickin' years ,I have been conditioned to believe that I don't have the right to privacy. Guess what ? now I know that I deserve privacy. and I will choose to tell people what I want and when I want. I also know that I don't need advice from someone else and perhaps that is the hardest thing for me to tell people that I don't need your advice , I don't want your advice and I never asked for your advice. kisses Tom Boy At 05:27 PM 27/11/01 -0500, k9pal999@... wrote: Tomboy: I see your point. I took the suggested ammends as sarcasm but a true suggestion. It is not your responsibility to make ammends for the cult. However, as a human being it might be compassionate to let this man know that you thought the meeting was inappropriate and understand how difficult it was for him or how uncomfortable it made him feel. It may be the only helpful thing he'll ever get from having associated himself with AA. People who dissent with the cult frequently feel isolated, guilty and just plain wrong unless they are very firm in their convictions. I can't tell you how many people, myself included, who have capitulated because of the pressure to conform. I feel liberated today in that I take responsibility for my own abstinence and behavior. The very first thing a newcomer gets is all the BS about dying if they don't stay, and there's no other way, you know what drill I'm talking about. Just a thought. They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Jan In a message dated 11/27/01 1:15:02 PM Central Standard Time, tomboy@... writes: First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make & quot;amends & quot;, that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Oooohhh, beautiful! I love it. I really do NOT want to fix anyone, and I don't want to be fixed. Would you be my sponsor?<vbg> No, really, I appreciate this post. This'll give me a lot to think about. Privacy. They really liked to invade that, didn't they? I have always been one of these people that didn't like to explain my actions. That did NOT go over well in "the fellowship". Re: Re: Bad Horror Movie I can no longer make it my responsibility to fix up the wrongs of others. I have been "trained" to do this for 30 years. I have been taught to "make nice" , help others be comfortable, be there for people, help until it hurts, carry the message, practice these principles, ad nauseum. I have been conditioned to be the classic "caretaker". On my journey to recovery from the cult experience, I no longer can take on the responsibility of "healing" others. I cannot make it my responsibility to "carry the message" to this individual.Today I am responsible for my own behaviour and actions (like you have stated) and so is this man. He will find his answers on his journey and I must respect his right to privacy and freedom to make his choices and his decisions.If he ever wants to talk to me (we always have our shallow "small talk" when I run into him) and has any questions about why I am so damn happy, I may or may not tell him why. Because for the last 30 frickin' years ,I have been conditioned to believe that I don't have the right to privacy. Guess what ? now I know that I deserve privacy. and I will choose to tell people what I want and when I want.I also know that I don't need advice from someone else and perhaps that is the hardest thing for me to tell people that I don't need your advice , I don't want your advice and I never asked for your advice.kissesTom BoyAt 05:27 PM 27/11/01 -0500, k9pal999@... wrote: Tomboy: I see your point. I took the suggested ammends as sarcasm but a true suggestion. It is not your responsibility to make ammends for the cult. However, as a human being it might be compassionate to let this man know that you thought the meeting was inappropriate and understand how difficult it was for him or how uncomfortable it made him feel. It may be the only helpful thing he'll ever get from having associated himself with AA. People who dissent with the cult frequently feel isolated, guilty and just plain wrong unless they are very firm in their convictions. I can't tell you how many people, myself included, who have capitulated because of the pressure to conform. I feel liberated today in that I take responsibility for my own abstinence and behavior. The very first thing a newcomer gets is all the BS about dying if they don't stay, and there's no other way, you know what drill I'm talking about. Just a thought. They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Jan First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make & quot;amends & quot;, that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Oooohhh, beautiful! I love it. I really do NOT want to fix anyone, and I don't want to be fixed. Would you be my sponsor?<vbg> No, really, I appreciate this post. This'll give me a lot to think about. Privacy. They really liked to invade that, didn't they? I have always been one of these people that didn't like to explain my actions. That did NOT go over well in "the fellowship". Re: Re: Bad Horror Movie I can no longer make it my responsibility to fix up the wrongs of others. I have been "trained" to do this for 30 years. I have been taught to "make nice" , help others be comfortable, be there for people, help until it hurts, carry the message, practice these principles, ad nauseum. I have been conditioned to be the classic "caretaker". On my journey to recovery from the cult experience, I no longer can take on the responsibility of "healing" others. I cannot make it my responsibility to "carry the message" to this individual.Today I am responsible for my own behaviour and actions (like you have stated) and so is this man. He will find his answers on his journey and I must respect his right to privacy and freedom to make his choices and his decisions.If he ever wants to talk to me (we always have our shallow "small talk" when I run into him) and has any questions about why I am so damn happy, I may or may not tell him why. Because for the last 30 frickin' years ,I have been conditioned to believe that I don't have the right to privacy. Guess what ? now I know that I deserve privacy. and I will choose to tell people what I want and when I want.I also know that I don't need advice from someone else and perhaps that is the hardest thing for me to tell people that I don't need your advice , I don't want your advice and I never asked for your advice.kissesTom BoyAt 05:27 PM 27/11/01 -0500, k9pal999@... wrote: Tomboy: I see your point. I took the suggested ammends as sarcasm but a true suggestion. It is not your responsibility to make ammends for the cult. However, as a human being it might be compassionate to let this man know that you thought the meeting was inappropriate and understand how difficult it was for him or how uncomfortable it made him feel. It may be the only helpful thing he'll ever get from having associated himself with AA. People who dissent with the cult frequently feel isolated, guilty and just plain wrong unless they are very firm in their convictions. I can't tell you how many people, myself included, who have capitulated because of the pressure to conform. I feel liberated today in that I take responsibility for my own abstinence and behavior. The very first thing a newcomer gets is all the BS about dying if they don't stay, and there's no other way, you know what drill I'm talking about. Just a thought. They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Jan First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make & quot;amends & quot;, that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 OK Ben, if humorous and brief approach was no good, then instead of " why not make amends " ... Normally I wouldn't tell someone else how to deal with their own baggage, but you've pointed out a problem you have that has an apparent solution that you don't seem to be aware of. Why not tell this person you think it was a bunch of bullshit and are glad you are out of it. Instead of feeling awkward every time you see the guy, tell him where you are at now. I mean if you didn't see him every day I doubt you would have mentioned this to us at all, and I doubt you would ever think about it, but you are the one who brought it up and it must mean something to you. Can't see the forest through the trees... You are so busy bashing AA, that you are unwilling or unable to do anything constructive to inhibit AA. Out of the frying pan into the fire... from one extreme to the other. From completely unselfish to completely selfish. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie At 01:20 PM 11/27/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > " Take the good and leave the rest " is XA slogan crap-o-la. I haven't done anything that needs to be " patched up " and there isn't any " damaged relations " between this individual and myself. There is plenty wrong with making nice and " patching things up " when I haven't done anything wrong. I don't know what's going on with the other posters, I had the same reaction to " why don't you make amends " , I though " for what " (I reread the original to see if I missed something) and " why say that in AA language " ? Perhaps because one can't think of other words for it? You're really kicking ass at coming back to these comments. Congratulations. It took me many years to think " AA dogma " when I heard something I had been programmed to believe was " universal spiritual truth. " >kisses >Tom Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 OK Ben, if humorous and brief approach was no good, then instead of " why not make amends " ... Normally I wouldn't tell someone else how to deal with their own baggage, but you've pointed out a problem you have that has an apparent solution that you don't seem to be aware of. Why not tell this person you think it was a bunch of bullshit and are glad you are out of it. Instead of feeling awkward every time you see the guy, tell him where you are at now. I mean if you didn't see him every day I doubt you would have mentioned this to us at all, and I doubt you would ever think about it, but you are the one who brought it up and it must mean something to you. Can't see the forest through the trees... You are so busy bashing AA, that you are unwilling or unable to do anything constructive to inhibit AA. Out of the frying pan into the fire... from one extreme to the other. From completely unselfish to completely selfish. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie At 01:20 PM 11/27/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > " Take the good and leave the rest " is XA slogan crap-o-la. I haven't done anything that needs to be " patched up " and there isn't any " damaged relations " between this individual and myself. There is plenty wrong with making nice and " patching things up " when I haven't done anything wrong. I don't know what's going on with the other posters, I had the same reaction to " why don't you make amends " , I though " for what " (I reread the original to see if I missed something) and " why say that in AA language " ? Perhaps because one can't think of other words for it? You're really kicking ass at coming back to these comments. Congratulations. It took me many years to think " AA dogma " when I heard something I had been programmed to believe was " universal spiritual truth. " >kisses >Tom Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 OK Ben, if humorous and brief approach was no good, then instead of " why not make amends " ... Normally I wouldn't tell someone else how to deal with their own baggage, but you've pointed out a problem you have that has an apparent solution that you don't seem to be aware of. Why not tell this person you think it was a bunch of bullshit and are glad you are out of it. Instead of feeling awkward every time you see the guy, tell him where you are at now. I mean if you didn't see him every day I doubt you would have mentioned this to us at all, and I doubt you would ever think about it, but you are the one who brought it up and it must mean something to you. Can't see the forest through the trees... You are so busy bashing AA, that you are unwilling or unable to do anything constructive to inhibit AA. Out of the frying pan into the fire... from one extreme to the other. From completely unselfish to completely selfish. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie At 01:20 PM 11/27/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > " Take the good and leave the rest " is XA slogan crap-o-la. I haven't done anything that needs to be " patched up " and there isn't any " damaged relations " between this individual and myself. There is plenty wrong with making nice and " patching things up " when I haven't done anything wrong. I don't know what's going on with the other posters, I had the same reaction to " why don't you make amends " , I though " for what " (I reread the original to see if I missed something) and " why say that in AA language " ? Perhaps because one can't think of other words for it? You're really kicking ass at coming back to these comments. Congratulations. It took me many years to think " AA dogma " when I heard something I had been programmed to believe was " universal spiritual truth. " >kisses >Tom Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Actually, ever heard of lin? That is where that crap-o-la came from, as did amends (or at least he doesn’t credit the idea of daily inventory and amends making to anyone other than himself). It’s not crapola… it’s good advice for living, and even a clock is right twice a day, where did I hear that before?? So there is plenty wrong with making tense or awkward situations less tense or awkward? Hmm. I’ll try to figure that one out. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make " amends " , that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy At 06:37 AM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Tom Boy, Why don't you make amends with the man? > > > Got to tell this one! > > > Back in the mid 80's when I was into NA/AA, a few us formed > >what we called " Bill W's surf riders association " . That was when I > >was living in Melbourne, (south east Australia). To go for a surf, > >when you lived there, meant a 2 hour drive down the coast. (No > >guesses the topic of conversation in the Kombi van on the way > >there.......and back). Recovery! Anyway, one of our surf > > " fellowship " members met a girl who was a mormon. He was > >suddenly forbidden from surfing on Sundays and all sorts of > >other rediculous restrictions. He changed from being a regular > >sort of bloke into a pretty intense one. He stopped swearing, > >talking filth, etc, etc, which is pretty hard for your standard Aussie > >bloke to do, I can tell you. LOL! One trip, he seemed a bit quiet. > >On gentle probing, as good concerned fellow AA/NA members > >will do, we established that he had " busted' the previous night. > >Apparently, after abstaining for 9 months he had masterbated, > >after seing his girlfreind the previous night! They were due to > >marry shortly. As a point of order here, his girlfriend was one > >sexy and amazingly attractive girl!. Anyway, we listened with > >concern, and empathy. (Isn't the word " empathy " abused in the > >rooms? LOL!) Now the point of the story is that after 9 long > >months, doing religiously correct things with his sex-Godess, > >and being a very good boy, keeping his hands to himself, )wel > >not even THAT!) and the contents of his underpants in check, > >only to " bust " ............one can only imagine how fucking excellent > >that bust must have been! > > > I think I'd " bust " a second time, straight afterwards, just for > >good measure! (probably my diesease talking here) > > > I dont know what became of my surfing mate I know he left > >NA/AA, and was tithing 10% of his bucks to the church. > > > I hope he still surfs. > > > > > > Barnsey > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Actually, ever heard of lin? That is where that crap-o-la came from, as did amends (or at least he doesn’t credit the idea of daily inventory and amends making to anyone other than himself). It’s not crapola… it’s good advice for living, and even a clock is right twice a day, where did I hear that before?? So there is plenty wrong with making tense or awkward situations less tense or awkward? Hmm. I’ll try to figure that one out. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make " amends " , that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy At 06:37 AM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Tom Boy, Why don't you make amends with the man? > > > Got to tell this one! > > > Back in the mid 80's when I was into NA/AA, a few us formed > >what we called " Bill W's surf riders association " . That was when I > >was living in Melbourne, (south east Australia). To go for a surf, > >when you lived there, meant a 2 hour drive down the coast. (No > >guesses the topic of conversation in the Kombi van on the way > >there.......and back). Recovery! Anyway, one of our surf > > " fellowship " members met a girl who was a mormon. He was > >suddenly forbidden from surfing on Sundays and all sorts of > >other rediculous restrictions. He changed from being a regular > >sort of bloke into a pretty intense one. He stopped swearing, > >talking filth, etc, etc, which is pretty hard for your standard Aussie > >bloke to do, I can tell you. LOL! One trip, he seemed a bit quiet. > >On gentle probing, as good concerned fellow AA/NA members > >will do, we established that he had " busted' the previous night. > >Apparently, after abstaining for 9 months he had masterbated, > >after seing his girlfreind the previous night! They were due to > >marry shortly. As a point of order here, his girlfriend was one > >sexy and amazingly attractive girl!. Anyway, we listened with > >concern, and empathy. (Isn't the word " empathy " abused in the > >rooms? LOL!) Now the point of the story is that after 9 long > >months, doing religiously correct things with his sex-Godess, > >and being a very good boy, keeping his hands to himself, )wel > >not even THAT!) and the contents of his underpants in check, > >only to " bust " ............one can only imagine how fucking excellent > >that bust must have been! > > > I think I'd " bust " a second time, straight afterwards, just for > >good measure! (probably my diesease talking here) > > > I dont know what became of my surfing mate I know he left > >NA/AA, and was tithing 10% of his bucks to the church. > > > I hope he still surfs. > > > > > > Barnsey > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Actually, ever heard of lin? That is where that crap-o-la came from, as did amends (or at least he doesn’t credit the idea of daily inventory and amends making to anyone other than himself). It’s not crapola… it’s good advice for living, and even a clock is right twice a day, where did I hear that before?? So there is plenty wrong with making tense or awkward situations less tense or awkward? Hmm. I’ll try to figure that one out. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make " amends " , that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy At 06:37 AM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Tom Boy, Why don't you make amends with the man? > > > Got to tell this one! > > > Back in the mid 80's when I was into NA/AA, a few us formed > >what we called " Bill W's surf riders association " . That was when I > >was living in Melbourne, (south east Australia). To go for a surf, > >when you lived there, meant a 2 hour drive down the coast. (No > >guesses the topic of conversation in the Kombi van on the way > >there.......and back). Recovery! Anyway, one of our surf > > " fellowship " members met a girl who was a mormon. He was > >suddenly forbidden from surfing on Sundays and all sorts of > >other rediculous restrictions. He changed from being a regular > >sort of bloke into a pretty intense one. He stopped swearing, > >talking filth, etc, etc, which is pretty hard for your standard Aussie > >bloke to do, I can tell you. LOL! One trip, he seemed a bit quiet. > >On gentle probing, as good concerned fellow AA/NA members > >will do, we established that he had " busted' the previous night. > >Apparently, after abstaining for 9 months he had masterbated, > >after seing his girlfreind the previous night! They were due to > >marry shortly. As a point of order here, his girlfriend was one > >sexy and amazingly attractive girl!. Anyway, we listened with > >concern, and empathy. (Isn't the word " empathy " abused in the > >rooms? LOL!) Now the point of the story is that after 9 long > >months, doing religiously correct things with his sex-Godess, > >and being a very good boy, keeping his hands to himself, )wel > >not even THAT!) and the contents of his underpants in check, > >only to " bust " ............one can only imagine how fucking excellent > >that bust must have been! > > > I think I'd " bust " a second time, straight afterwards, just for > >good measure! (probably my diesease talking here) > > > I dont know what became of my surfing mate I know he left > >NA/AA, and was tithing 10% of his bucks to the church. > > > I hope he still surfs. > > > > > > Barnsey > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Oh my gosh! two sponsees now! (are you listening Caroline???). Although I was one that didn't like to explain my actions, I always did anyways, something about learned helplessness you know? see I didn't think I had a choice! kisses Tom Boy At 08:14 PM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Oooohhh, beautiful! I love it. I really do NOT want to fix anyone, and I don't want to be fixed. Would you be my sponsor?<vbg> No, really, I appreciate this post. This'll give me a lot to think about. Privacy. They really liked to invade that, didn't they? I have always been one of these people that didn't like to explain my actions. That did NOT go over well in " the fellowship " . Re: Re: Bad Horror Movie I can no longer make it my responsibility to fix up the wrongs of others. I have been " trained " to do this for 30 years. I have been taught to " make nice " , help others be comfortable, be there for people, help until it hurts, carry the message, practice these principles, ad nauseum. I have been conditioned to be the classic " caretaker " . On my journey to recovery from the cult experience, I no longer can take on the responsibility of " healing " others. I cannot make it my responsibility to " carry the message " to this individual. Today I am responsible for my own behaviour and actions (like you have stated) and so is this man. He will find his answers on his journey and I must respect his right to privacy and freedom to make his choices and his decisions. If he ever wants to talk to me (we always have our shallow " small talk " when I run into him) and has any questions about why I am so damn happy, I may or may not tell him why. Because for the last 30 frickin' years ,I have been conditioned to believe that I don't have the right to privacy. Guess what ? now I know that I deserve privacy. and I will choose to tell people what I want and when I want. I also know that I don't need advice from someone else and perhaps that is the hardest thing for me to tell people that I don't need your advice , I don't want your advice and I never asked for your advice. kisses Tom Boy At 05:27 PM 27/11/01 -0500, k9pal999@... wrote: Tomboy: I see your point. I took the suggested ammends as sarcasm but a true suggestion. It is not your responsibility to make ammends for the cult. However, as a human being it might be compassionate to let this man know that you thought the meeting was inappropriate and understand how difficult it was for him or how uncomfortable it made him feel. It may be the only helpful thing he'll ever get from having associated himself with AA. People who dissent with the cult frequently feel isolated, guilty and just plain wrong unless they are very firm in their convictions. I can't tell you how many people, myself included, who have capitulated because of the pressure to conform. I feel liberated today in that I take responsibility for my own abstinence and behavior. The very first thing a newcomer gets is all the BS about dying if they don't stay, and there's no other way, you know what drill I'm talking about. Just a thought. They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Jan First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make & quot;amends & quot;, that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Oh my gosh! two sponsees now! (are you listening Caroline???). Although I was one that didn't like to explain my actions, I always did anyways, something about learned helplessness you know? see I didn't think I had a choice! kisses Tom Boy At 08:14 PM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Oooohhh, beautiful! I love it. I really do NOT want to fix anyone, and I don't want to be fixed. Would you be my sponsor?<vbg> No, really, I appreciate this post. This'll give me a lot to think about. Privacy. They really liked to invade that, didn't they? I have always been one of these people that didn't like to explain my actions. That did NOT go over well in " the fellowship " . Re: Re: Bad Horror Movie I can no longer make it my responsibility to fix up the wrongs of others. I have been " trained " to do this for 30 years. I have been taught to " make nice " , help others be comfortable, be there for people, help until it hurts, carry the message, practice these principles, ad nauseum. I have been conditioned to be the classic " caretaker " . On my journey to recovery from the cult experience, I no longer can take on the responsibility of " healing " others. I cannot make it my responsibility to " carry the message " to this individual. Today I am responsible for my own behaviour and actions (like you have stated) and so is this man. He will find his answers on his journey and I must respect his right to privacy and freedom to make his choices and his decisions. If he ever wants to talk to me (we always have our shallow " small talk " when I run into him) and has any questions about why I am so damn happy, I may or may not tell him why. Because for the last 30 frickin' years ,I have been conditioned to believe that I don't have the right to privacy. Guess what ? now I know that I deserve privacy. and I will choose to tell people what I want and when I want. I also know that I don't need advice from someone else and perhaps that is the hardest thing for me to tell people that I don't need your advice , I don't want your advice and I never asked for your advice. kisses Tom Boy At 05:27 PM 27/11/01 -0500, k9pal999@... wrote: Tomboy: I see your point. I took the suggested ammends as sarcasm but a true suggestion. It is not your responsibility to make ammends for the cult. However, as a human being it might be compassionate to let this man know that you thought the meeting was inappropriate and understand how difficult it was for him or how uncomfortable it made him feel. It may be the only helpful thing he'll ever get from having associated himself with AA. People who dissent with the cult frequently feel isolated, guilty and just plain wrong unless they are very firm in their convictions. I can't tell you how many people, myself included, who have capitulated because of the pressure to conform. I feel liberated today in that I take responsibility for my own abstinence and behavior. The very first thing a newcomer gets is all the BS about dying if they don't stay, and there's no other way, you know what drill I'm talking about. Just a thought. They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Jan First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make & quot;amends & quot;, that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Its good advice for living for you (and I guess lin), what is good advice for you isn't necessarily good advice for me. Do not try to decide what is good advice for me, I will make those decisions. kisses Tom Boy At 09:43 PM 27/11/01 -0500, cool guy wrote: Actually, ever heard of lin? That is where that crap-o-la came from, as did amends (or at least he doesn t credit the idea of daily inventory and amends making to anyone other than himself). It s not crapola & it s good advice for living, and even a clock is right twice a day, where did I hear that before?? So there is plenty wrong with making tense or awkward situations less tense or awkward? Hmm. I ll try to figure that one out. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. I don't make " amends " , that is XA jargon that literally makes my stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the evils that take place in so called recovery circles. Does this sound rather terse? good, I hope I have made myself clear. kisses Tom Boy At 06:37 AM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Tom Boy, Why don't you make amends with the man? > > > Got to tell this one! > > > Back in the mid 80's when I was into NA/AA, a few us formed > >what we called " Bill W's surf riders association " . That was when I > >was living in Melbourne, (south east Australia). To go for a surf, > >when you lived there, meant a 2 hour drive down the coast. (No > >guesses the topic of conversation in the Kombi van on the way > >there.......and back). Recovery! Anyway, one of our surf > > " fellowship " members met a girl who was a mormon. He was > >suddenly forbidden from surfing on Sundays and all sorts of > >other rediculous restrictions. He changed from being a regular > >sort of bloke into a pretty intense one. He stopped swearing, > >talking filth, etc, etc, which is pretty hard for your standard Aussie > >bloke to do, I can tell you. LOL! One trip, he seemed a bit quiet. > >On gentle probing, as good concerned fellow AA/NA members > >will do, we established that he had " busted' the previous night. > >Apparently, after abstaining for 9 months he had masterbated, > >after seing his girlfreind the previous night! They were due to > >marry shortly. As a point of order here, his girlfriend was one > >sexy and amazingly attractive girl!. Anyway, we listened with > >concern, and empathy. (Isn't the word " empathy " abused in the > >rooms? LOL!) Now the point of the story is that after 9 long > >months, doing religiously correct things with his sex-Godess, > >and being a very good boy, keeping his hands to himself, )wel > >not even THAT!) and the contents of his underpants in check, > >only to " bust " ............one can only imagine how fucking excellent > >that bust must have been! > > > I think I'd " bust " a second time, straight afterwards, just for > >good measure! (probably my diesease talking here) > > > I dont know what became of my surfing mate I know he left > >NA/AA, and was tithing 10% of his bucks to the church. > > > I hope he still surfs. > > > > > > Barnsey > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 Also in " Living Sober " it ia used to say take from AA what works for you. If only old timers understood this!! abbadun ==================================================================== Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol or morphine or idealism. --- Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), Swiss psychiatrist, founded psychology > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free > >Subject: RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:43:21 -0500 > >Actually, ever heard of lin? That is where that crap-o-la >came from, as did amends (or at least he doesn't credit the idea of >daily inventory and amends making to anyone other than himself). It's >not crapola. it's good advice for living, and even a clock is right >twice a day, where did I hear that before?? So there is plenty wrong >with making tense or awkward situations less tense or awkward? Hmm. >I'll try to figure that one out. > > RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie > > > >First of all, I seriously thought about not answering this question, I >am not sure whether you are being sarcastic or whether you are serious. > I don't make " amends " , that is XA jargon that literally makes my >stomach turn to the point where I feel a need to run to the bathroom and >stick my head in the toilet to upchuck. >Last but not least, I haven't done anything wrong. I will not put the >weight of the cult on my shoulders and take responsibilities for the >evils that take place in so called recovery circles. >Does this sound rather terse? >good, I hope I have made myself clear. > > >kisses >Tom Boy > > > >At 06:37 AM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > > Tom Boy, > Why don't you make amends with the man? > > > > > > Got to tell this one! > > > > Back in the mid 80's when I was into NA/AA, a few us >formed > > >what we called " Bill W's surf riders association " . That was >when I > > >was living in Melbourne, (south east Australia). To go for a >surf, > > >when you lived there, meant a 2 hour drive down the coast. >(No > > >guesses the topic of conversation in the Kombi van on the >way > > >there.......and back). Recovery! Anyway, one of our surf > > > " fellowship " members met a girl who was a mormon. He was > > >suddenly forbidden from surfing on Sundays and all sorts of > > >other rediculous restrictions. He changed from being a >regular > > >sort of bloke into a pretty intense one. He stopped swearing, > > >talking filth, etc, etc, which is pretty hard for your standard >Aussie > > >bloke to do, I can tell you. LOL! One trip, he seemed a bit >quiet. > > >On gentle probing, as good concerned fellow AA/NA >members > > >will do, we established that he had " busted' the previous >night. > > >Apparently, after abstaining for 9 months he had >masterbated, > > >after seing his girlfreind the previous night! They were due to > > >marry shortly. As a point of order here, his girlfriend was one > > >sexy and amazingly attractive girl!. Anyway, we listened with > > >concern, and empathy. (Isn't the word " empathy " abused in >the > > >rooms? LOL!) Now the point of the story is that after 9 long > > >months, doing religiously correct things with his sex-Godess, > > >and being a very good boy, keeping his hands to himself, )wel > > >not even THAT!) and the contents of his underpants in check, > > >only to " bust " ............one can only imagine how fucking >excellent > > >that bust must have been! > > > > I think I'd " bust " a second time, straight afterwards, just for > > >good measure! (probably my diesease talking here) > > > > I dont know what became of my surfing mate I know he left > > >NA/AA, and was tithing 10% of his bucks to the church. > > > > I hope he still surfs. > > > > > > > > Barnsey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 First, look up the word amend in a dictionary. Simply because AA spins words to hell and back to fit their agenda doesn’t change what they really mean. OK, AA makes up shit like disease theories, takes credit for things they didn’t invent (like all the good parts of the program) and changes the meaning of words. That said, and to clarify, I did mean “make amends” when I said make amends. I meant the expression with the normal human meaning not the fucked up AA (groveling) meaning… I tend to do that, use the phrases that AA has distorted for what they truly mean instead of what AA would have them mean. I suppose that could be the source of some of the confusion. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie At 09:36 PM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Normally I wouldn't tell someone else how to deal with their own baggage, but you've pointed out a problem you have that has an apparent solution that you don't seem to be aware of. TB: But you have decided that I have " baggage " , you normally don't tell others how to deal with the " baggage " but with me you have decided that you have a solution that I don't seem aware of? I have never suggested that this is a problem. I haven't been looking for solutions. But for clarity here, you have misquoted Ben with what I have said. So I will answer your erroneously addressed posting. CG: You wrote about the baggage. I don’t normally ask people to tell me about their baggage or give them advice about what to do with it. I don’t contest that you haven’t been looking for solutions, or else you would have seen it; it’s an obvious solution. Why not tell this person you think it was a bunch of bullshit and are glad you are out of it. TB : Because I don't want to. CG: Fine. That also answers my original question, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” Instead of feeling awkward every time you see the guy, tell him where you are at now. TB: I don't feel awkward every time I see the guy CG: Well you said something to that effect, that you or he or both feel awkward because of that past event. That is why I asked a simple question in the first place, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” since you obviously know a hell of a lot more about the situation than anyone else on this eGroup. As opposed to making some lengthy question about I mean if you didn't see him every day I doubt you would have mentioned this to us at all TB:why is that? you know absolutely nothing about me yet you have been able to decide the reasons for what I do? CG: Point taken, but I still doubt you would have mentioned it if it never came in your mind… , and I doubt you would ever think about it, TB: really, I think about a lot of things that don't bother me. It is normal to think about many different things. Sometimes happy things, sometimes sad things, sometimes indifferent things, sometimes mad things. I just like to think, it doesn't mean that it carries any special kind of baggage because I am thinking of something. That idea of yours sounds really XA. " If you are thinking about something it must be bothering you, oh oh better fix it before you drink and die " CG: OK. I guess it sounds really XA to you. Ask a person who hasn’t been involved with XA if it sounds really XA or not. I didn’t suggest special baggage, merely baggage. I didn’t suggest that you would drink and die, without fixing it… In fact I didn’t even suggest that you fix it; I merely asked the question, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” As long as we are clear on that. but you are the one who brought it up and it must mean something to you. TB: It means that it makes me sad. Since sadness is a legitimate feeling, I am allowed to feel it, stuff it, put it on a shelf, take it out , look at it, ignore it and do absolutely nothing about it. My choice, my decisions. CG: As long as we are agree on that. Can't see the forest through the trees... TB:Really? wow that is a really heavy judgement. what do you base this theory on? especially when you know nothing about me, not even my name or where I live or what I do for a living or how tall or short I am , or how skinny or fat I am, what my favourite foods are, nothing, absolutely nothing but you have made this judgement? CG: OK, I don’t need to know any of that crap, to see that what I said didn’t register with you whatsoever, that your feelings about one thing blinded you from something different (and probably more important). It’s no theory; it’s simple fact... I said one thing but you took it as something else… and became quite defensive and trashed the whole concept of what I said, simply because you didn’t like the words I used or your perception of my ideas. You are so busy bashing AA, that you are unwilling or unable to do anything constructive to inhibit AA. TB: It is not my responsibility to inhibit AA. Have no desire to inhibit AA. My desire is to heal from the cult experience that I have lived through for the past 30 years. Having anyone conform to my anti-cultism is not my goal. My world is no longer black and white. Why do I suspect that your world is black and white? CG Because you are trying to insult me, and trying to imagine that I am some moron who has no idea what you are all about and has no idea what anything is about. Go ahead, suspect that… believe that if it makes you feel better. Out of the frying pan into the fire... from one extreme to the other. TB: Okay, so I read some stuff and say to myself " tomboy holy shit, look at this, you have been in a frickin' cult for the past 30 years. You have been controlled. You haven't been allowed to feel or think. You have given up your freedom to think to a group of people who really don't give a damn about you because it is a selfish program " and then I get really angry. Are you telling me that my feelings of anger are extreme? or is angry an extreme feeling. Please explain in 200 words or less. Single pages, double spaced please. CG: No that is not what I said. I said you went from one extreme, completely selfless, being a good self-abasing cult member, to the other extreme, totally selfish, unwilling to do something for someone else simply because of the fact that you don’t “have to” do selfless things anymore. From completely unselfish to completely selfish. Ummmm AA is " a selfish program " so wouldn't it be " From completely selfish to unselfish? " or am I confused? CG: I was correct – from unselfish to selfish. You don’t want me to answer that about the confusion, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 First, look up the word amend in a dictionary. Simply because AA spins words to hell and back to fit their agenda doesn’t change what they really mean. OK, AA makes up shit like disease theories, takes credit for things they didn’t invent (like all the good parts of the program) and changes the meaning of words. That said, and to clarify, I did mean “make amends” when I said make amends. I meant the expression with the normal human meaning not the fucked up AA (groveling) meaning… I tend to do that, use the phrases that AA has distorted for what they truly mean instead of what AA would have them mean. I suppose that could be the source of some of the confusion. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie At 09:36 PM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Normally I wouldn't tell someone else how to deal with their own baggage, but you've pointed out a problem you have that has an apparent solution that you don't seem to be aware of. TB: But you have decided that I have " baggage " , you normally don't tell others how to deal with the " baggage " but with me you have decided that you have a solution that I don't seem aware of? I have never suggested that this is a problem. I haven't been looking for solutions. But for clarity here, you have misquoted Ben with what I have said. So I will answer your erroneously addressed posting. CG: You wrote about the baggage. I don’t normally ask people to tell me about their baggage or give them advice about what to do with it. I don’t contest that you haven’t been looking for solutions, or else you would have seen it; it’s an obvious solution. Why not tell this person you think it was a bunch of bullshit and are glad you are out of it. TB : Because I don't want to. CG: Fine. That also answers my original question, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” Instead of feeling awkward every time you see the guy, tell him where you are at now. TB: I don't feel awkward every time I see the guy CG: Well you said something to that effect, that you or he or both feel awkward because of that past event. That is why I asked a simple question in the first place, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” since you obviously know a hell of a lot more about the situation than anyone else on this eGroup. As opposed to making some lengthy question about I mean if you didn't see him every day I doubt you would have mentioned this to us at all TB:why is that? you know absolutely nothing about me yet you have been able to decide the reasons for what I do? CG: Point taken, but I still doubt you would have mentioned it if it never came in your mind… , and I doubt you would ever think about it, TB: really, I think about a lot of things that don't bother me. It is normal to think about many different things. Sometimes happy things, sometimes sad things, sometimes indifferent things, sometimes mad things. I just like to think, it doesn't mean that it carries any special kind of baggage because I am thinking of something. That idea of yours sounds really XA. " If you are thinking about something it must be bothering you, oh oh better fix it before you drink and die " CG: OK. I guess it sounds really XA to you. Ask a person who hasn’t been involved with XA if it sounds really XA or not. I didn’t suggest special baggage, merely baggage. I didn’t suggest that you would drink and die, without fixing it… In fact I didn’t even suggest that you fix it; I merely asked the question, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” As long as we are clear on that. but you are the one who brought it up and it must mean something to you. TB: It means that it makes me sad. Since sadness is a legitimate feeling, I am allowed to feel it, stuff it, put it on a shelf, take it out , look at it, ignore it and do absolutely nothing about it. My choice, my decisions. CG: As long as we are agree on that. Can't see the forest through the trees... TB:Really? wow that is a really heavy judgement. what do you base this theory on? especially when you know nothing about me, not even my name or where I live or what I do for a living or how tall or short I am , or how skinny or fat I am, what my favourite foods are, nothing, absolutely nothing but you have made this judgement? CG: OK, I don’t need to know any of that crap, to see that what I said didn’t register with you whatsoever, that your feelings about one thing blinded you from something different (and probably more important). It’s no theory; it’s simple fact... I said one thing but you took it as something else… and became quite defensive and trashed the whole concept of what I said, simply because you didn’t like the words I used or your perception of my ideas. You are so busy bashing AA, that you are unwilling or unable to do anything constructive to inhibit AA. TB: It is not my responsibility to inhibit AA. Have no desire to inhibit AA. My desire is to heal from the cult experience that I have lived through for the past 30 years. Having anyone conform to my anti-cultism is not my goal. My world is no longer black and white. Why do I suspect that your world is black and white? CG Because you are trying to insult me, and trying to imagine that I am some moron who has no idea what you are all about and has no idea what anything is about. Go ahead, suspect that… believe that if it makes you feel better. Out of the frying pan into the fire... from one extreme to the other. TB: Okay, so I read some stuff and say to myself " tomboy holy shit, look at this, you have been in a frickin' cult for the past 30 years. You have been controlled. You haven't been allowed to feel or think. You have given up your freedom to think to a group of people who really don't give a damn about you because it is a selfish program " and then I get really angry. Are you telling me that my feelings of anger are extreme? or is angry an extreme feeling. Please explain in 200 words or less. Single pages, double spaced please. CG: No that is not what I said. I said you went from one extreme, completely selfless, being a good self-abasing cult member, to the other extreme, totally selfish, unwilling to do something for someone else simply because of the fact that you don’t “have to” do selfless things anymore. From completely unselfish to completely selfish. Ummmm AA is " a selfish program " so wouldn't it be " From completely selfish to unselfish? " or am I confused? CG: I was correct – from unselfish to selfish. You don’t want me to answer that about the confusion, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 First, look up the word amend in a dictionary. Simply because AA spins words to hell and back to fit their agenda doesn’t change what they really mean. OK, AA makes up shit like disease theories, takes credit for things they didn’t invent (like all the good parts of the program) and changes the meaning of words. That said, and to clarify, I did mean “make amends” when I said make amends. I meant the expression with the normal human meaning not the fucked up AA (groveling) meaning… I tend to do that, use the phrases that AA has distorted for what they truly mean instead of what AA would have them mean. I suppose that could be the source of some of the confusion. RE: Re: Bad Horror Movie At 09:36 PM 27/11/01 -0500, you wrote: Normally I wouldn't tell someone else how to deal with their own baggage, but you've pointed out a problem you have that has an apparent solution that you don't seem to be aware of. TB: But you have decided that I have " baggage " , you normally don't tell others how to deal with the " baggage " but with me you have decided that you have a solution that I don't seem aware of? I have never suggested that this is a problem. I haven't been looking for solutions. But for clarity here, you have misquoted Ben with what I have said. So I will answer your erroneously addressed posting. CG: You wrote about the baggage. I don’t normally ask people to tell me about their baggage or give them advice about what to do with it. I don’t contest that you haven’t been looking for solutions, or else you would have seen it; it’s an obvious solution. Why not tell this person you think it was a bunch of bullshit and are glad you are out of it. TB : Because I don't want to. CG: Fine. That also answers my original question, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” Instead of feeling awkward every time you see the guy, tell him where you are at now. TB: I don't feel awkward every time I see the guy CG: Well you said something to that effect, that you or he or both feel awkward because of that past event. That is why I asked a simple question in the first place, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” since you obviously know a hell of a lot more about the situation than anyone else on this eGroup. As opposed to making some lengthy question about I mean if you didn't see him every day I doubt you would have mentioned this to us at all TB:why is that? you know absolutely nothing about me yet you have been able to decide the reasons for what I do? CG: Point taken, but I still doubt you would have mentioned it if it never came in your mind… , and I doubt you would ever think about it, TB: really, I think about a lot of things that don't bother me. It is normal to think about many different things. Sometimes happy things, sometimes sad things, sometimes indifferent things, sometimes mad things. I just like to think, it doesn't mean that it carries any special kind of baggage because I am thinking of something. That idea of yours sounds really XA. " If you are thinking about something it must be bothering you, oh oh better fix it before you drink and die " CG: OK. I guess it sounds really XA to you. Ask a person who hasn’t been involved with XA if it sounds really XA or not. I didn’t suggest special baggage, merely baggage. I didn’t suggest that you would drink and die, without fixing it… In fact I didn’t even suggest that you fix it; I merely asked the question, “Why don’t you make amends with this man?” As long as we are clear on that. but you are the one who brought it up and it must mean something to you. TB: It means that it makes me sad. Since sadness is a legitimate feeling, I am allowed to feel it, stuff it, put it on a shelf, take it out , look at it, ignore it and do absolutely nothing about it. My choice, my decisions. CG: As long as we are agree on that. Can't see the forest through the trees... TB:Really? wow that is a really heavy judgement. what do you base this theory on? especially when you know nothing about me, not even my name or where I live or what I do for a living or how tall or short I am , or how skinny or fat I am, what my favourite foods are, nothing, absolutely nothing but you have made this judgement? CG: OK, I don’t need to know any of that crap, to see that what I said didn’t register with you whatsoever, that your feelings about one thing blinded you from something different (and probably more important). It’s no theory; it’s simple fact... I said one thing but you took it as something else… and became quite defensive and trashed the whole concept of what I said, simply because you didn’t like the words I used or your perception of my ideas. You are so busy bashing AA, that you are unwilling or unable to do anything constructive to inhibit AA. TB: It is not my responsibility to inhibit AA. Have no desire to inhibit AA. My desire is to heal from the cult experience that I have lived through for the past 30 years. Having anyone conform to my anti-cultism is not my goal. My world is no longer black and white. Why do I suspect that your world is black and white? CG Because you are trying to insult me, and trying to imagine that I am some moron who has no idea what you are all about and has no idea what anything is about. Go ahead, suspect that… believe that if it makes you feel better. Out of the frying pan into the fire... from one extreme to the other. TB: Okay, so I read some stuff and say to myself " tomboy holy shit, look at this, you have been in a frickin' cult for the past 30 years. You have been controlled. You haven't been allowed to feel or think. You have given up your freedom to think to a group of people who really don't give a damn about you because it is a selfish program " and then I get really angry. Are you telling me that my feelings of anger are extreme? or is angry an extreme feeling. Please explain in 200 words or less. Single pages, double spaced please. CG: No that is not what I said. I said you went from one extreme, completely selfless, being a good self-abasing cult member, to the other extreme, totally selfish, unwilling to do something for someone else simply because of the fact that you don’t “have to” do selfless things anymore. From completely unselfish to completely selfish. Ummmm AA is " a selfish program " so wouldn't it be " From completely selfish to unselfish? " or am I confused? CG: I was correct – from unselfish to selfish. You don’t want me to answer that about the confusion, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 I was expressing empathy mostly for the poor bastard that they made talk about his nonexistent sex life. I know a lawyer who teaches Ethics at Washington University that got totally fucked into the program. She so wanted to be accepted and to address her issue or whatever with alcohol. She has a Yale education and spouts slogans like a moron. Funny thing is - this is a gay women's group right. Well, she went to dinner with us after her first meeting - one more way to indoctrinate - and I was waiting on the edge of my seat for the following question - WHERE DO YOU WORK. You see, in that group, you must be more than educated, you must earn money or you're a second class drunk. Mainly, I was just reflecting on all the vulnerable people I've seen manipulated, myself included. When I sobered up last week, I was determined that the most unsafe and unhealthy place I could put myself was an AA meeting. Most folks in my gay AA community know I was drinking. I'm not going to put myself thru their smugness and bullshit. Yeah I needed to quit drinking, but AA is still all wrong and twisted. Jan Jan - you said They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Of course anyone who is a drunk is very vulnerable, especially if the drinking has created other problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 I was expressing empathy mostly for the poor bastard that they made talk about his nonexistent sex life. I know a lawyer who teaches Ethics at Washington University that got totally fucked into the program. She so wanted to be accepted and to address her issue or whatever with alcohol. She has a Yale education and spouts slogans like a moron. Funny thing is - this is a gay women's group right. Well, she went to dinner with us after her first meeting - one more way to indoctrinate - and I was waiting on the edge of my seat for the following question - WHERE DO YOU WORK. You see, in that group, you must be more than educated, you must earn money or you're a second class drunk. Mainly, I was just reflecting on all the vulnerable people I've seen manipulated, myself included. When I sobered up last week, I was determined that the most unsafe and unhealthy place I could put myself was an AA meeting. Most folks in my gay AA community know I was drinking. I'm not going to put myself thru their smugness and bullshit. Yeah I needed to quit drinking, but AA is still all wrong and twisted. Jan Jan - you said They scare the hell out of people who are very vulnerable. Of course anyone who is a drunk is very vulnerable, especially if the drinking has created other problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 I'd be more than happy to do that if I could find something in it that works and doesn't do more harm than good. Jan Also in & quot;Living Sober & quot; it ia used to say take from AA what works for you. If only old timers understood this!! abbadun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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