Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 > ya know how they say you cant be grateful and resentful at same > time? i think thats probably true. but after 9/11, i heard a shrink > say it was good people were angry because anger is healthier > than the fear it replaced. and that has probably got truth to it as > well. > > i know im still angry at aa's abuses, but i try to make it a positive > rather than a negative. without anger, there would be no > revolution, the usa wouldn't exist if our forefathers hadn't turned > anger into an uprising. > > cults generally try to discourage strong emotions, it disrupts the > cults hypnotic spell. they much rather see followers exhibit > numbness, something similar to AA's bland, non confrontational > or critical " serenity " ----------------- How true, Dave. I remember a while back there was a thread about what would have happened if Parks were a Stepper -- she would have been " serene " and practiced " Acceptance " and just cheerfully stood on her swollen feet while there were loads of empty seats in the " white " section of that bus. It may not have been the intention of the early steppers for steppism to cause political numbness, but it damn well was of interest to Ford and Rockefeller and other billionaire bosses who actively promoted AA to their workers. They saw it as a way to stifle unionism, etc. Keep them " serenely " " accepting " of whatever the bosses paid them and ordered them to do. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 > ==================================================================== > Total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation. > > ---St. Augustine I expect this is St Augustine of Hippo, the de facto Patron Saint of the " Augustine Fellowship " Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA), and he was talking about sex, not alcohol. This is imo a very revealing quote, since most ppl would *not* consider total sexual abstinence as particularly healthy behavior, even in response to previous sexual excess. However, the quote may still be true: total Abstinence may well be easier than perfect moderation, it does not make it the healthiest option however. SLAA does not officially demand total sexual abstinence from its members, but there is quite a strong strain of suggestion in that direction. In Sexaholics Anonymous (SA) it is explicit - even to masturbation. Total sexual abstinence can even have a health consequence for males - celibate males sometimes get infections as a result of not flushing out the tubes through ejaculating occasionally. It is usually only seen in Catholic priests. What the sex addiction groups indicate, especially SA, that it is possible to take an obsession with the supposed need for abstinence way beyond the reality. What if that also applied to alcohol or other drugs? Even if there are some ppl for whom social drinking is not an advisable goal, imo it is very likely that the majority of AA members are not among them. In the case of NA's who never had problems with alcohol, this is imo likely 100%. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 > ==================================================================== > Total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation. > > ---St. Augustine I expect this is St Augustine of Hippo, the de facto Patron Saint of the " Augustine Fellowship " Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA), and he was talking about sex, not alcohol. This is imo a very revealing quote, since most ppl would *not* consider total sexual abstinence as particularly healthy behavior, even in response to previous sexual excess. However, the quote may still be true: total Abstinence may well be easier than perfect moderation, it does not make it the healthiest option however. SLAA does not officially demand total sexual abstinence from its members, but there is quite a strong strain of suggestion in that direction. In Sexaholics Anonymous (SA) it is explicit - even to masturbation. Total sexual abstinence can even have a health consequence for males - celibate males sometimes get infections as a result of not flushing out the tubes through ejaculating occasionally. It is usually only seen in Catholic priests. What the sex addiction groups indicate, especially SA, that it is possible to take an obsession with the supposed need for abstinence way beyond the reality. What if that also applied to alcohol or other drugs? Even if there are some ppl for whom social drinking is not an advisable goal, imo it is very likely that the majority of AA members are not among them. In the case of NA's who never had problems with alcohol, this is imo likely 100%. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 > ==================================================================== > Total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation. > > ---St. Augustine I expect this is St Augustine of Hippo, the de facto Patron Saint of the " Augustine Fellowship " Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA), and he was talking about sex, not alcohol. This is imo a very revealing quote, since most ppl would *not* consider total sexual abstinence as particularly healthy behavior, even in response to previous sexual excess. However, the quote may still be true: total Abstinence may well be easier than perfect moderation, it does not make it the healthiest option however. SLAA does not officially demand total sexual abstinence from its members, but there is quite a strong strain of suggestion in that direction. In Sexaholics Anonymous (SA) it is explicit - even to masturbation. Total sexual abstinence can even have a health consequence for males - celibate males sometimes get infections as a result of not flushing out the tubes through ejaculating occasionally. It is usually only seen in Catholic priests. What the sex addiction groups indicate, especially SA, that it is possible to take an obsession with the supposed need for abstinence way beyond the reality. What if that also applied to alcohol or other drugs? Even if there are some ppl for whom social drinking is not an advisable goal, imo it is very likely that the majority of AA members are not among them. In the case of NA's who never had problems with alcohol, this is imo likely 100%. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Hi Rita I heard that AA in S Africa defied apartheid restrictions, but did it ever defy it in the American South? I know was concerned about it, but I bet he decided it was good for black AA's humility not to be allowed to join white meetings. He made the same decision about non-Xtians having to listen to the Lord's Prayer (I'll see if I can dig that out). I think the OGM were *always* interested in using Buchmanism to promote authoritarian society - as Buchman's " think what a man like Hitler could achieve if he surrendered to God " and his delight at the thought of a " God controlled dictatorship " . and (and Ford) were all Oxford groupers saturated with this kind of thinking. P. > How true, Dave. I remember a while back there was a thread about what would have happened if Parks were a Stepper -- she would have been " serene " and practiced " Acceptance " and just cheerfully stood on her swollen feet while there were loads of empty seats in the " white " section of that bus. > > It may not have been the intention of the early steppers for steppism to cause political numbness, but it damn well was of interest to Ford and Rockefeller and other billionaire bosses who actively promoted AA to their workers. They saw it as a way to stifle unionism, etc. Keep them " serenely " " accepting " of whatever the bosses paid them and ordered them to do. > > ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Hi Rita I heard that AA in S Africa defied apartheid restrictions, but did it ever defy it in the American South? I know was concerned about it, but I bet he decided it was good for black AA's humility not to be allowed to join white meetings. He made the same decision about non-Xtians having to listen to the Lord's Prayer (I'll see if I can dig that out). I think the OGM were *always* interested in using Buchmanism to promote authoritarian society - as Buchman's " think what a man like Hitler could achieve if he surrendered to God " and his delight at the thought of a " God controlled dictatorship " . and (and Ford) were all Oxford groupers saturated with this kind of thinking. P. > How true, Dave. I remember a while back there was a thread about what would have happened if Parks were a Stepper -- she would have been " serene " and practiced " Acceptance " and just cheerfully stood on her swollen feet while there were loads of empty seats in the " white " section of that bus. > > It may not have been the intention of the early steppers for steppism to cause political numbness, but it damn well was of interest to Ford and Rockefeller and other billionaire bosses who actively promoted AA to their workers. They saw it as a way to stifle unionism, etc. Keep them " serenely " " accepting " of whatever the bosses paid them and ordered them to do. > > ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Hi Rita I heard that AA in S Africa defied apartheid restrictions, but did it ever defy it in the American South? I know was concerned about it, but I bet he decided it was good for black AA's humility not to be allowed to join white meetings. He made the same decision about non-Xtians having to listen to the Lord's Prayer (I'll see if I can dig that out). I think the OGM were *always* interested in using Buchmanism to promote authoritarian society - as Buchman's " think what a man like Hitler could achieve if he surrendered to God " and his delight at the thought of a " God controlled dictatorship " . and (and Ford) were all Oxford groupers saturated with this kind of thinking. P. > How true, Dave. I remember a while back there was a thread about what would have happened if Parks were a Stepper -- she would have been " serene " and practiced " Acceptance " and just cheerfully stood on her swollen feet while there were loads of empty seats in the " white " section of that bus. > > It may not have been the intention of the early steppers for steppism to cause political numbness, but it damn well was of interest to Ford and Rockefeller and other billionaire bosses who actively promoted AA to their workers. They saw it as a way to stifle unionism, etc. Keep them " serenely " " accepting " of whatever the bosses paid them and ordered them to do. > > ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 > > I found that once I got away from the 12 step ideology, it took > less to stay sober. I was inspired to post this link to a lampoon on the steps...IMO, quite accurate! http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Love it! Looks like the program that alot of folks in the rooms are actually working. -----Original Message----- From: Hicks I was inspired to post this link to a lampoon on the steps...IMO, quite accurate! http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 > I did a 'cold turkey' from AA (no pun intended). I still feel fear and anger regarding that group. When I told one individual I was not going back to meetings the response was " Well, it sounds like you a ready to do the steps but are just balking " . Clever aren't they. That is a clever method the AAers use to coerce people into staying in the cult. Trying to convince a person to doubt one's own decisions is the biggest way to try to regain control. It is good that you did not fall for that line of BS. http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Ben - Honestly, I will never know if I needed AA or not in the beginning of my sobriety. I did need people. Any group of supportive people could have helped, including this site. I was just not aware of any other support group. Only one meeting a week did I attend in the beginning but was made to believe that I had to attend more, read more, and chant more slogans. I lived in fear that if I did not do these things I would go back to drinking. The one good think about AA was the sign on the wall: Think, Think, Think, but when I started questioning the steps and the program, old timers told me I was "over-thinking it". At thanksgiving dinner today I watched while others drank wine. I had absolutely no desire to join them. It has been six months since I have had alcohol and I don't want any. As I watched one person get embarrassingly drunk I thought - HA - my choice to NOT do that. Cool. I did a 'cold turkey' from AA (no pun intended). I still feel fear and anger regarding that group. When I told one individual I was not going back to meetings the response was "Well, it sounds like you a ready to do the steps but are just balking". Clever aren't they. I do not believe this site is growing into a cult. You are the proof of that. If you need AA now then realize that is your choice. There is a hell of a lot more tolerance here than I ever saw in any AA meeting. Peace, Re: safe and warm At 12:39 AM 11/22/01 -0500, abbadun _ wrote:>Hey>>I would say that the most important thing for you to do is what ever it>takes to stop drinking. Right now for me I use a little bit of AA, but I do>not buy in for the whole deal. i have a feeling as I get more and more>sobriety under my belt I will use more and more non-AA options to remain>sober. "A little bit of AA" reminds me of something I heard, only once (it wasapparently too much of a truism to get repeated), in AA. "Asking for advicein AA is like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose."----------http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Dave, HAHAHAHHA. Great idea! The re-cycle center will be open in the morning. Re: safe and warm dont burn, compost it! thats what i did with mine. it would be awaste to not recycle so mcuh garbage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 There is one emotion AA loves to see-> A person breaking down and crying and begging for help. Re: safe and warm ya know how they say you cant be grateful and resentful at sametime? i think thats probably true. but after 9/11, i heard a shrinksay it was good people were angry because anger is healthierthan the fear it replaced. and that has probably got truth to it aswell.i know im still angry at aa's abuses, but i try to make it a positiverather than a negative. without anger, there would be norevolution, the usa wouldn't exist if our forefathers hadn't turnedanger into an uprising.cults generally try to discourage strong emotions, it disrupts thecults hypnotic spell. they much rather see followers exhibitnumbness, something similar to AA's bland, non confrontationalor critical "serenity" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 "Asking for advicein AA is like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose." I love it. That is gonna stick in my mind for a long time. Too funny. "I know that there are some very nice people in the groups who are well meaning..." I understand what you are saying, I said it for years, but I discovered that the well meaning people were the most dangerous for me to be around. Of course, they always are. Have you ever read Ayn Rand's book, 'Atlas Shrugged' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Before the day is over 11:57 PM eastern time Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!!!1 abbadun ==================================================================== Total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation. ---St. Augustine >From: thesobrietist@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: safe and warm >Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:02:25 -0000 > > >Well said! > >Happy Thxgiving to you and all on the list. > >Stay well. > > Tom > > > > > I found that once I got away from the 12 step ideology, it took >less to stay > > sober. > > > > For me, the 12 steps are a mix of very little good and a lot of >guilt > > inducing bad. What parts of the steps that are good are canceled >out either > > in the next sentence or by the way they are worded. > > > > Take the first step. Rather than just admitting I have a problem >which is > > truly the first step in overcoming it, it asks me to believe that >my life is > > completely out of control because of it and there is absolutely >nothing I can > > do about it because I am powerless to do so. Here lies the problem >in > > overcoming an addiction if I really try to accept this. If I truly >believe > > that I am powerless to do something about it, I am already doomed >to failure. > > > > Step 2 is unnecessary if I don't accept step one. Step 3, same as >2. Step 4 > > wouldn't hurt except it wants to make it a moral issue. What if I >was raised > > in the housing projects in a welfare family in the inner city and >all my > > life, all I knew was poverty and a depressed life style. Drugs and >alcohol > > are prevalent and I get mixed up with the wrong crowd at an early >age. Am I > > morally wrong for my circumstances? > > > > On and on it goes with self defeating admissions. If I go back to >step one > > and admit that I am not powerless and that I can do something >about, I make a > > plan to overcome and stick to it by recognizing wrong thinking that > > perpetuates the addictive lifestyle, then I'll have no reason to be >this far > > down on the list of steps. > > > > Other than just wanting to interact with people to get out of a >lonely > > lifestyle, I see no reason to be at these meetings. And if I was >lonely and > > trying to overcome addiction and I didn't accept the beliefs of the >12 step > > groups, I think it would be self defeating to attend. I think a >bowling > > league or something like that would be better for me than that. > > > > If I was spiritually inclined, I would get involved with a church >group. I > > find the 12 step approach to spirituality to be vague at best since >nobody is > > encouraged to expound on their own particular beliefs in their own >particular > > religion or sect of. > > > > I know that there are some very nice people in the groups who are >well > > meaning and who find the 12 steps to be exactly what they need and >that's > > cool. There are a lot of folks that I am still very good friends >with who are > > in them and I interact with them only outside of the meetings and I >don't > > discuss 12 step issues with them. I just deal with them like I do >anyone > > else. Those that are consumed with 12 step tunnel vision, I avoid. > > > > I'm not criticizing anyone who likes 12 step meetings, just >confused how > > someone could like them and find them useful but only use a little >bit of > > them. I do wish them the best though and hope they get what they >need. > > > > msd > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Happy Thanksgiving folks! You are all in my thoughts. I hope you are all relaxing yourselves. Re: safe and warm Well said!Happy Thxgiving to you and all on the list.Stay well. Tom> I found that once I got away from the 12 step ideology, it took less to stay > sober. > > For me, the 12 steps are a mix of very little good and a lot of guilt > inducing bad. What parts of the steps that are good are canceled out either > in the next sentence or by the way they are worded. > > Take the first step. Rather than just admitting I have a problem which is > truly the first step in overcoming it, it asks me to believe that my life is > completely out of control because of it and there is absolutely nothing I can > do about it because I am powerless to do so. Here lies the problem in > overcoming an addiction if I really try to accept this. If I truly believe > that I am powerless to do something about it, I am already doomed to failure.> > Step 2 is unnecessary if I don't accept step one. Step 3, same as 2. Step 4 > wouldn't hurt except it wants to make it a moral issue. What if I was raised > in the housing projects in a welfare family in the inner city and all my > life, all I knew was poverty and a depressed life style. Drugs and alcohol > are prevalent and I get mixed up with the wrong crowd at an early age. Am I > morally wrong for my circumstances?> > On and on it goes with self defeating admissions. If I go back to step one > and admit that I am not powerless and that I can do something about, I make a > plan to overcome and stick to it by recognizing wrong thinking that > perpetuates the addictive lifestyle, then I'll have no reason to be this far > down on the list of steps.> > Other than just wanting to interact with people to get out of a lonely > lifestyle, I see no reason to be at these meetings. And if I was lonely and > trying to overcome addiction and I didn't accept the beliefs of the 12 step > groups, I think it would be self defeating to attend. I think a bowling > league or something like that would be better for me than that. > > If I was spiritually inclined, I would get involved with a church group. I > find the 12 step approach to spirituality to be vague at best since nobody is > encouraged to expound on their own particular beliefs in their own particular > religion or sect of.> > I know that there are some very nice people in the groups who are well > meaning and who find the 12 steps to be exactly what they need and that's > cool. There are a lot of folks that I am still very good friends with who are > in them and I interact with them only outside of the meetings and I don't > discuss 12 step issues with them. I just deal with them like I do anyone > else. Those that are consumed with 12 step tunnel vision, I avoid.> > I'm not criticizing anyone who likes 12 step meetings, just confused how > someone could like them and find them useful but only use a little bit of > them. I do wish them the best though and hope they get what they need.> > msd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 > " Asking for advice > in AA is like trying to take a sip of water from a fire > hose. " > > I love it. That is gonna stick in my mind for a long time. Too funny. > > " I know that there are some very nice people in the groups who are well > meaning... " > The road to hell is often paved with " good intentions " . http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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