Re: Please help me deprogram my spouse.

November 15, 2001

Dear ,

I am sorry to hear of your situation. I wish that there was

something that I could tell you that would solve this awful problem.

Gathering information is the best thing that you can do right now.

If your husband is resistent to help, there is really nothing that

you can do for him. All you can do right now is to get yourself

through this situation. Knowing what AA and other cults are about is

beneficial to you because you will get better insight to how your

husband operates.

I don't know if you can save your marriage. Do you really want to at

this point? This man has put you deeply in debt where you are

working a midnight job that is very physically and mantally taxing on

you. Your husband does not seem to care about the sacrifices you

have made. His lying is something that you would have a hard time

getting over. Converting to another religion without even telling

you shows the lengths that he is willing to go to decieve you besides

robbing the household of the money to gamble with.

Alcoholics Anonymous always seems to win out in these family

situations. A newcomer in AA or any other twelve-step group will be

told by the other members with more " time in the program " that the

husbands, wives, or children must come last to their " recovery " . AA

is to come first in a person's life. Family or anything else is to

come last. These twelve-step cults are very crafty at how to lure

people in. Many newcomers are a little skittish and are very unsure

if AA/NA is for them. The new people are told to go to ninety

meetings in ninety days and then decide if the " program " is for

them. Going to a meeting every single day for three months is bound

to draw a person further into that cult since " time control " has

taken effect. There is no time for anything else except for the job

and a little bit of sleep if a person is going to meetings every day

for 25% of the calender year.

The Hare Krishnas and cults of that nature use the " weekend getaway "

to entice new people. " Just spend a weekend of friendship with us, "

a more experienced cult member will say, " Then decide if the group is

for you. " Once the naive person accepts the weekend invitiation,

s/he really has no chance of getting out since the group has already

got that individual. At the " retreat " , the newbie is paired off with

a " buddy " who will go everywhere on the compound with him/her. Even

restroom visits require the buddy's company. Why? That way the

novice will not be left alone to ponder in one's own thoughts so that

the realization of the " weekend " being a mistake will not be

realized. Also, the presence of a " buddy " insures that the newcomer

is getting all of the cult's indoctrination needed to hook that

person permanently. The Twelve-Step programs are very similar - such

as the use of " sponsors " and the heavy " time control " - except that

people do not live on the premises.

You will need to ask yourself if you are better off with or without

this man. Is he able to be financially responsible or will you spend

the rest of your life working your fingers to the bone to feed his

obsessions? It is going to be very hard to get your spouse away from

AA unless this is something that he truly wants. He will probably

share at meetings how his wife is trying to " ruin " his recovery or

his Twelve-Step associations. The other cult members will nod

approvingly while telling your husband that he cannot allow his wife

to come between him and Alcoholics Anonymous.

Yahoo Club: AA or NA Twelve-Step Cults

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

November 15, 2001

You might want to see what he knows about the history of AA and how it was founded. Ask him how people quit before AA was founded over fifty years ago.

November 15, 2001

Hi ,

Thanks for the prompt and thoughtful response. It sounds like deprogramming an unwilling cultist may be very tough to do. I think I haven't really fully understood how deeply and completely AA mind-control works on Steppers. But I am starting to get the picture. I plan to continue my research as you suggested.

You are right that life with Tim may not be the best choice for me. But I still have hope that he will wake up to the big AA deception. I want to see how life looks in the spring.

In the meantime, I will appreciate any other words of support.

November 15, 2001

Please help me deprogram my spouse.

Hello everyone.

It breaks my heart to read a post like this, it really does!

I'm hoping others more experienced will respond to you. I won't pretend to know the answer for you, but I can only say to you, don't doubt your thinking, or your feelings. You are right. Don't forget that. I have an ex wife who is a so called alcoholic. I'll get round to posting my story here one day, but it resembles yours. It's tragic.

Hope it works out for you. But don't wear the 12 step shit, what ever you do! It's a personality disordered persons paradise. May be read up on personality disorders. There's a lot of "co-morbidity".

Barnsey

November 15, 2001

I would then go back to the history of how the myth of this socalled diseasd was founded. An individual who called it a disease also claimed that lieing, murder and political parity were diseases as well.

They may claim that scientific resarch claims it is a disease. Their idea of scientific research however cosists of asking questions about ones relationship with their spouce of family, and also includes going as far as seeing how they draw sketches on a piece of cardboard.

November 15, 2001

Hi

I read your post and agree with you. AA is so cult like. If it was not for

the fact that there is " officially " nothing else out there for drug abuse,

AA would be placed on the level of one of the " crazy " cults.

I would love to ask some of my family that are long time AAers, what they

really think of AA. Most of my family that are in AA seem to be normal, but

I do not want to take the chance that they are AA franatics and would make

me their project.

abbadun

====================================================================

Total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation.

---St. Augustine

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free >

>Subject: Please help me deprogram my spouse.

>Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 04:56:12 -0600

>

>Hello everyone. I am a 47 y.o. female who is married to a zealous AA cult

>member. Last week, I joined this list. I now know I am not crazy and not

>alone in my negative assessment of AA. For this, I am very grateful to you

>all.

>

>I have been compiling a list of your recommended books and web sites in an

>effort to deprogram my husband Tim from AA. However, he is resistant to my

>deprogramming attempts and probably won't read anything I could provide.

>So I am looking for other kinds of help. I'm not sure what that help could

>be. I worry my marriage is breaking up.

>

>Here is a history of my situation. I met my husband Tim in 1990 while were

>both volunteering for Mothers Against Drunk Driving. I was a concerned

>citizen, a non-drinker who never was a problem drinker. Tim was freshly

>out of prison, speaking out against drunk driving as a former offender who

>had killed a baby while driving under the influence of alcohol. In 1991,

>we began to date. Tim now had 1 year of alcohol sobriety and 1 year of

>membership in AA. We grew to love each other, so in 1994 we were married.

>

>At that time, I admired Tim for his volunteer work and dedication to

>helping people. But I also thought he was immature and lacking some social

>skills. I wrote off those concerns to his difficult childhood and years of

>incarceration. I thought because he now had a job and a stable life with

>me, he would naturally mature. I also bought the AA line that because Tim

>had only 4 years of sobriety, he was " only 4 years old. "

>

>In the years I have known Tim, he has regularly attended AA meetings, read

>AA literature, worn AA t-shirts, and carried AA medallions. But imo, AA

>has made Tim weak and self-doubting.

>

>One year after our wedding, Tim developed a gambling habit. For years now,

>I have had to contend with his lying, unexplained abscences, gambling

>relapses, and over $15,000 in gambling losses. Today, Tim has 10 months of

>gambling sobriety.

>

>Tim was fired from 2 jobs. Imo, he was fired mostly for his poor judgment

>and personality problems. Recently, he was out of work for a year. I was

>forced to take a job working midnights stocking shelves in order to pay

>bills. I am physically exhausted and bruised all the time and rarely get

>enough sleep.

>

>To make matters worse, in June this year, Tim was baptized Mormon (imo

>another cult). I now have 2 cults to deal with! Tim deceived me about his

>intentions to be baptized Mormon. He made secret phone calls to invite

>guests to the ceremony. He told me about the baptism only after it was

>done.

>

>Tim now has 11 years of alcohol sobriety and 11 years of continuous AA

>meetings. So where was AA's effectiveness all these years? Well, lemme

>see. I can explain it. Obviously, Tim wasn't working the 12 Steps

>properly! After all, AA is God's gift to alcoholics! Its doctrine can't

>be wrong! (Sarcasm.)

>

>The fact is AA is very clever. AA always wins. When the AA Stepper stays

>sober, AA gets the credit for it. Acccording to AA, the Stepper is

> " powerless over alcohol. " If the Stepper drinks (or as in Tim's case,

>develops a crossover habit), AA is not responsible. AA concludes the

>Stepper failed because he could not have been working the program properly.

>

>Tim won't listen open-mindedly to my criticisms of AA. He says I don't

>know what AA is really all about because I haven't gone to Al-anon. True,

>I have never gone to Al-anon but I have been to open AA and GA meetings, 1

>Gam-anon meeting, and some ACA meetings. I learned what I could, decided

>the programs were fundamentally flawed, and moved on with my life.

>

>Tim becomes hostile and defensive when I criticize AA. He says because I

>don't support AA, I am not supportive of him. Is it not supportive to tell

>the truth about AA despite the certain backlash one will get? Tim says I

>am " spiritually lacking " and I have " an anger problem. " I am Christian and

>will defend Christianity. But I don't read the Bible nor go to church. (I

>had years of Catholic education; I think I learned the doctrine well.) I

>simply live my life with integrity.

>

>Tim says AA is " life or death " for him. I feel secondary to AA. I get

>precious little recognition from him for standing by him all these years.

>

>Tim recently took a job working part-time, days. He goes to work, to 4 or

>5 recovery meetings a week, to 2 or 3 church services a week, and spends

>hours on the internet and other activities. We have no meaningful time

>together. I feel abandonned and betrayed. AA and religious things are in

>our cars, the house, and the garage. AA and religion are always in my

>face. My husband has transformed into a zealous, religious cultist .

>

>I still love my husband but I am resentful of where my life has gone. I am

>tired of fighting, crying, being alone, and fearing the next relapse. I

>want my life to change! I want Tim to quit AA (and Mormonism, too) so that

>he can be healthy, confident, and strong. I want us to have a real life

>together.

>

>Thanks for reading this lengthy post. I look forward to your deprogramming

>suggestions and success stories.

>

_________________________________________________________________

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November 15, 2001

I now know I am not crazy and not alone in my negative assessment

of AA. For this, I am very grateful to you all.

>

Hi ,

I was glad to know i wasn't crazy too.

This post was very troublesome for me...and sad. I do not

have the answers nor a happy ending to tell about my marriage.

Thought maybe i should just keep quiet, yet now i see some

things differently and can talk about that, my view.

> I have been compiling a list of your recommended books and web

sites in an effort to deprogram my husband Tim from AA. However, he

is resistant to my deprogramming attempts and probably won't read

anything I could provide. So I am looking for other kinds of help.

I'm not sure what that help could be. I worry my marriage is

breaking up.

>

Deprogram yourself. Keep learning. Question and rebuke all

BS and slogans. With you doing that - some might rub off on

him...maybe put a question mark in his head.

>

> In the years I have known Tim, he has regularly attended AA

meetings, read AA literature, worn AA t-shirts, and carried AA

medallions. But imo, AA has made Tim weak and self-doubting.

>

This is scary...sounds like he has internalized AA.

> One year after our wedding, Tim developed a gambling habit. For

years now, I have had to contend with his lying, unexplained

abscences, gambling relapses, and over $15,000 in gambling losses.

Today, Tim has 10 months of gambling sobriety.

>

Is this his new 'love'.

> Tim was fired from 2 jobs. Imo, he was fired mostly for his poor

judgment and personality problems. Recently, he was out of work for

a year. I was forced to take a job working midnights stocking

shelves in order to pay bills. I am physically exhausted and bruised

all the time and rarely get enough sleep.

>

You need to take care of yourself and stay healthy, getting

weak helps no one. Your thinking will work better. He's to

be a partner not a slug, do not be used.

> To make matters worse, in June this year, Tim was baptized Mormon

(imo another cult). I now have 2 cults to deal with! Tim deceived

me about his intentions to be baptized Mormon. He made secret phone

calls to invite guests to the ceremony. He told me about the baptism

only after it was done.

>

Oh boy...do you have kids?

His marriage is no longer to you, he is way out of line.

Don't let your 'love' blind you. What do you expect out of

a relationship? Lies? Secrets? Living on 'hope he changes'?

These are hard questions. Sounds like he is sucking the life

out of you,and you have agreed to it, all for the sake of love.

What are you willing to settle for? As things stand, not for

what you hope. Hope is good, as long as its not killing you.

> The fact is AA is very clever. AA always wins. When the AA

Stepper stays sober, AA gets the credit for it. Acccording to AA,

the Stepper is " powerless over alcohol. " If the Stepper drinks (or

as in Tim's case, develops a crossover habit), AA is not

responsible. AA concludes the Stepper failed because he could not

have been working the program properly.

>

I hate AA and think it kills, in more ways then one. They

always cover their ass...wiggle worms.

> Tim won't listen open-mindedly to my criticisms of AA. He says I

don't know what AA is really all about because I haven't gone to Al-

anon. True, I have never gone to Al-anon but I have been to open AA

and GA meetings, 1 Gam-anon meeting, and some ACA meetings. I

learned what I could, decided the programs were fundamentally flawed,

and moved on with my life.

>

Be a good little wifey and go to al-anon, f*** that.

> Tim becomes hostile and defensive when I criticize AA.

He must be talking the talk, counter-act that. Learn how

to recognize it and then defuse. Ken Ragge and

Bufe both have good books on this.

He says because I don't support AA, I am not supportive of him.

He is manipulating here, you can support one without

the other. He's a shit.

Is it not supportive to tell the truth about AA despite the certain

backlash one will get?

Does he want to know you or change you?

Can't you have your own thoughts about AA and other things.

Tim says I am " spiritually lacking " and I have " an anger problem. "

I am Christian and will defend Christianity. But I don't read the

Bible nor go to church. (I had years of Catholic education; I think

I learned the doctrine well.) I simply live my life with integrity.

>

Oh, they get so wise 'spiritually' don't they. Sounds like

he has stuff ass-backwards. Maybe he should ask 'god' to

take better care of him so you don't have to.

> Tim says AA is " life or death " for him.

This is the part of your post that scares me the most.

His self talk.

If i had a chance to do it all over with my hubby, this

is what i would focus on. Of course, i could be wrong.

But that is how i see it.

Somehow, to get his self talk changed, his belief about

AA neutralized...not either or as stated above. Maybe

others here have ideas about how to do this. Am clueless

at this point.

I feel secondary to AA.

You are.

I get precious little recognition from him for standing by him all

these years.

>

So why do you keep doing it?

> Tim recently took a job working part-time, days. He goes to work,

to 4 or 5 recovery meetings a week, to 2 or 3 church services a week,

and spends hours on the internet and other activities. We have no

meaningful time together. I feel abandonned and betrayed. AA and

religious things are in our cars, the house, and the garage. AA and

religion are always in my face. My husband has transformed into a

zealous, religious cultist .

>

Find some space, surround yourself with what you want.

> I still love my husband but I am resentful of where my life has

gone. I am tired of fighting, crying, being alone, and fearing the

next relapse. I want my life to change! I want Tim to quit AA (and

Mormonism, too) so that he can be healthy, confident, and strong. I

want us to have a real life together.

>

I know you do, and wish that for you too.

But at this point, that is not your reality.

If Tim never changes, what are you going to do?

Can you put him on the back burner for awhile, and

re-evaluate yourself and what you want out of life and

relationships. Not what you wish but what is.

netty

November 15, 2001

At 04:56 AM 11/15/01 -0600, Schreiner wrote:

>

>Hello everyone. I am a 47 y.o. female who is married to a zealous AA cult

member. Last week, I joined this list. I now know I am not crazy and not

alone in my negative assessment of AA. For this, I am very grateful to you

all.

I don't know if that's from your Christian bachground or if the talk

from your husband has worn off, but I cringe when I read " For this I am

grateful " because I heard those exact words so many times in meetings.

But don't worry about it, that's just my reaction... as you were saying...

>

>I have been compiling a list of your recommended books and web sites in an

effort to deprogram my husband Tim from AA. However, he is resistant to my

deprogramming attempts and probably won't read anything I could provide.

So I am looking for other kinds of help. I'm not sure what that help could

be. I worry my marriage is breaking up.

From the rest of your story it appears you and he are worlds apart in

many ways.

I thought because he now had a job and a stable life with me, he would

naturally mature.

Perhaps he would have if he had not been in AA.

>I also bought the AA line that because Tim had only 4 years of sobriety,

he was " only 4 years old. "

>In the years I have known Tim, he has regularly attended AA meetings, read

AA literature, worn AA t-shirts, and carried AA medallions. But imo, AA

has made Tim weak and self-doubting.

That's certainly what it did to me. Or it increased my weakness and

self-doubt.

>One year after our wedding, Tim developed a gambling habit.

Why am I not surprised? The dogma is that you are not only poweless

over alcohol, but that you are powerless over people, places, and things.

Powerless over money. Powerless over you-name-it. It's certainly enough

to make anyone neurotic.

>For years now, I have had to contend with his lying, unexplained

abscences, gambling relapses, and over $15,000 in gambling losses. Today,

Tim has 10 months of gambling sobriety.

I don't even like the word " sobriety " as AA uses it (meaning not just

not being drunk, but not having had a sip of a drink). I prefer the word

absinence (despite its possible sexual connotation). I've been absinent

from alcohol for over 13 years.

So you were saying he hasn't gambled (that you know of) for 10 months.

>Tim was fired from 2 jobs. Imo, he was fired mostly for his poor judgment

and personality problems. Recently, he was out of work for a year. I was

forced to take a job working midnights stocking shelves in order to pay

bills. I am physically exhausted and bruised all the time and rarely get

enough sleep.

>To make matters worse, in June this year, Tim was baptized Mormon (imo

another cult). I now have 2 cults to deal with! Tim deceived me about his

intentions to be baptized Mormon. He made secret phone calls to invite

guests to the ceremony. He told me about the baptism only after it was done.

>

>Tim now has 11 years of alcohol sobriety

Or abstinence...

>and 11 years of continuous AA meetings.

That's more than me, I had only about 9 years of continuous meetings.

>So where was AA's effectiveness all these years? Well, lemme see. I can

explain it. Obviously, Tim wasn't working the 12 Steps properly! After

all, AA is God's gift to alcoholics! Its doctrine can't be wrong! (Sarcasm.)

Either you've learned really fast from a week's lurking here (you

probably do anyway), or your husband is going to the same AA that I did.

Actually, this is the way it is in any 'strong group'. Look up Amway

on the web, there are many anti-Amway and ex-Amway sites out there. I've

never been involved with it, but I was amazed to read the tactics and

beliefs, and how they paralleled with AA. If you're not selling a lot

of soap, you're not doing it right. " Just sign up for this Amway sales

seminar, only $15 entry fee, and there will be lots of good motivational

tapes for you to buy. It's well worth the investment... "

>Tim won't listen open-mindedly to my criticisms of AA. He says I don't

know what AA is really all about because I haven't gone to Al-anon.

It looks like you know much better than he does what AA is all about.

> True, I have never gone to Al-anon but I have been to open AA and GA

meetings, 1 Gam-anon meeting, and some ACA meetings. I learned what I

could, decided the programs were fundamentally flawed, and moved on with my

life.

Yes, but you still have this husband who is married to AA.

>

>Tim becomes hostile and defensive when I criticize AA. He says because I

don't support AA, I am not supportive of him. Is it not supportive to tell

the truth about AA despite the certain backlash one will get?

He believes unquestioningly in AA, so any criticism of AA is a

criticism of his beliefs and just life decisions to follow AA. Criticism

of AA will will feel like anything but support.

>Tim says I am " spiritually lacking " and I have " an anger problem. " I am

Christian and will defend Christianity. But I don't read the Bible nor go

to church. (I had years of Catholic education; I think I learned the

doctrine well.) I simply live my life with integrity.

>

>Tim says AA is " life or death " for him.

It was for me. AA was a spiritual death that kept me from living

life.

>I feel secondary to AA. I get precious little recognition from him for

standing by him all these years.

You were just doing what you were supposed to do, what Al-Anon would

tell you to do (Al-Anon officially doesn't tell it's members what to do,

but you know how that goes...).

>

>Tim recently took a job working part-time, days. He goes to work, to 4 or

5 recovery meetings a week, to 2 or 3 church services a week, and spends

hours on the internet and other activities. We have no meaningful time

together. I feel abandonned and betrayed. AA and religious things are in

our cars, the house, and the garage. AA and religion are always in my

face. My husband has transformed into a zealous, religious cultist .

>

>I still love my husband but I am resentful of where my life has gone. I

am tired of fighting, crying, being alone, and fearing the next relapse. I

want my life to change! I want Tim to quit AA (and Mormonism, too) so that

he can be healthy, confident, and strong. I want us to have a real life

together.

What you want seems entirely reasonable for any marriage, but in the

case of your husband it looks discouraging.

>Thanks for reading this lengthy post. I look forward to your

deprogramming suggestions and success stories.

All I can suggest is basically what another response said, do what

you can for yourself, read the books and stuff. Perhaps stop badgering

your husband and not try to deconvert him. He'll notice this, but he will

also see that there's no way you will participate in 12-step activities,

especially when he sees you reading a book titled " AA: Cult or Cure? "

>

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

November 15, 2001

At 11:54 AM 11/15/01 EST, GOBAZOOKA1@... wrote:

>You might want to see what he knows about the history of AA and how it was

>founded. Ask him how people quit before AA was founded over fifty years ago.

I can hear the response, " but they DIED from this horrible disease! That's

what's so wonderful about AA, it SAVES LIVES! Alcoholics were all dooomed

before AA! "

" The big book says it, I believe it, that settles it. "

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

November 15, 2001

Tim says I am " spiritually lacking " and I have " an anger problem. " I

am Christian and will defend Christianity. But I don't read the

Bible nor go to church. (I had years of Catholic education; I think

I learned the doctrine well.) I simply live my life with integrity.

Thanks for your kind words, . The accusations of

being " spiritually lacking " and having " an anger problem " is a clever

method that AA/NAers use to justify their bad behavior. Of course

you should be angry with the things that this man has done to you. I

certainly would be quite angry if I felt that I had to take on

anotehr job on a midnight shift to pay the bills after my spouse

spent all the money on gambling. One of the biggest cliches in this

cult is to be " accepting " of bad treatment and to not get " angry " .

But that always applies when something bad happens to someone else

rather than the AAer who is spouting off this nonsense.

The straw that broke the camel's back with me was when another

Stepper told me that I had " an anger problem " and was acting like

a " dry drunk " because I had reported a co-worker who had used filthy

language over the work two-way radio due to a mild mistake I had made

on the job. This other female AAer basically told me that I needed

to shut-up and " smile nicely " when another person is out-of-line with

me. She was extremely nasty. Then this ignorant woman claimed to

want to " sponsor " me.

When I told this woman to mind her own business since she had no

knowledge of what had happened at my job, other members jumped all

over me telling me that I acted as if everyone was out " to get me " .

The other steppers, who were friends with this woman, said that I had

no right to tell her off despite the crap she tried to lay on me. I

guess what they meant was that I was the only one who had to

practice " acceptance & tolerance " . It was considered okay for this

woman to insult me yet I was considered a " dry drunk " for defending

myself to this woman and her over-inflated ego.

I was ready to deep-six the " program " anyway but this woman verbally

attacking me made me decide to rid myself of AA and NA once and for

all. It took me awhile to understand that it is okay to be angry.

Feelings are normal. Most qualified addiction therapists, who DO NOT

send their clients to AA or NA, will say that the lack of being able

to deal with one's emotions is often why many people do abuse drugs

or alcohol. Most cults manipulate their members to suppress their

emotions telling the people that they must be happy and smiling

despite what their conditions are. This is how these groups control

the people. It is easier to have control over a " happy bunch " than

it is to manipulate a person who will react with anger.

You also need to remember that your husband has probably learned

the " tricks of the trade " of lying and manipulation while he was

incarcerated. He probably was able to survive that way while locked

up since prison is a very different type of " society " . Many women

who get invovled with former inmates are often fooled by these men

who lead the ladies to believe that they have reformed. For a year

or so after the marriage, the husband often does act as a model

spouse by working hard and being very loving. The true aspects of an

ex-con's personality come to light after he feels comfortable in the

marriage. By then, the wives of these con artists are usually

financially wiped out by these men.

You really do need time away from this man. You are only nine years

older than me but I do know that time goes by so much quicker as we

do get older. Do you really want to be supporting this man and his

bad habits ten years from now when you are close to being sixty years

old? You should be looking forward to your retirement years of rest

from the long life in the workplace rather than have to take on all

of these odd jobs just because this AAer ruined you financially. I

feel saddened when I see the elderly having to bag groceries and

chase down carts at the local market just to make that little-above

minimum wage or doing security work on an all-nighter shift trying

desperately to stay awake because their Social Security just is not

enough.

AA or NA Twelve Step Cults

http://clubs.yahoo.com./clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

November 16, 2001

Hi all. Thanks to everyone who responded to my posting about deprogramming my husband. You wrote some very good suggestions/words of support. Now my response to a few of your remarks.

y wrote, "...don't doubt your thinking, or your feelings. You are right. Don't forget that."

I really needed to hear that. It is hard sometimes to stay strong in the fight against AA. In fact just yesterday, I called a friend looking for support in deprogramming Tim. She listened patiently to why I thought Tim should quit AA. She was kind in her response but told me I was trying to "control" Tim. She said if AA keeps Tim away from alcohol, I should accept his involvement. She said her dad went to AA meetings twice a week for over twenty years and it worked for him. Her dad didn't drink, but I wondered to myself if he remained dysfunctional. So many people do not question the doctrine of AA. I felt somewhat disappointed after the call but I remembered the words above from y and quickly got over my disappointment.

y wrote the 12 Steps are "a personality disordered persons paradise."

I agree. Imo AA is filled with emotionally sick people who think they can help other emotionally sick people. Wasn't AA started by two emotionally sick people? Seems to me like trying to turn lead into gold. Sharing experiences is comforting but not a "cure" for dysfunctional people. Imo objective professional guidance is often needed. Imo Steppers avoid talking about their feelings at meetings and instead focus on some intellectual discussion of the 12 Steps. They conveniently avoid feeling their guilt ("I'm powerless over alcohol. It's not my fault.") and avoid discussing their real problems in the real world. Imo AA allows many Steppers to attend meetings for twenty years without ever addressing/healing their emotional problems. Old-timers are not automatically healthy and wise.

Abbadun wrote, "I would love to ask some of my family that are long time AAers, what they really think of AA...but I do not want to take the chance that they are AA fanatics and would make me their project."

Last year, I politely questioned the validity of some AA beliefs to two AA friends, each alone on separate occasions. Both AAers became defensive, emotionally hot, and would not hear me out. One of them, who claims to be a professional counsellor with 25 years of AA meetings and no alcohol, actually hung up the phone on me before I was done talking. I was stunned; I had originally called her out of desperation looking for help with my relationship with Tim. She later said she didn't hang up on me; she thought the conversation had ended.

Netty wrote, "Deprogram yourself."

Great advice. I need to educate myself more about AA cultism. I'm sure I must have been somehow effected (infected?) by AA philosophy while being with my AA husband since 1991.

Netty wrote, "Oh boy...do you have kids?"

No. Neither one of us has any children.

Netty wrote, "Don't let your 'love' blind you."

This is an issue I wrestle with. I believe in marriage as a life-long commitment. How can I divorce myself from somone who needs help? But how can I stay with someone who doesn't want help and who also is hurting me? I'm not ready to make that decision. I want to study AA cultism first and perhaps try something yet unknown to me that may help save my marriage.

Netty wrote, "He must be talking the talk, counter-act that. Learn how to recognize it and then diffuse. Ken Ragge and Bufe both have good books on this."

I like your suggestion, however, I'm not sure what you mean by "diffuse." If you mean shrug off his talk, that sounds doable. But if you mean question Tim about the validity of what he is saying, I may not want to do that now. I have confronted him about such things in the past without success. Other writers have suggested that I should stop "badgering" Tim; that I cannot change him. I am undecided about what to do here.

Netty quoted me, "Tim says AA is 'life or death' for him."

Netty wrote, "This is the part of your post that scares me the most. His self-talk."

I believe Tim does use self-destructive self-talk. I think I could approach Tim on this one if I use non-anti-AA solutions. Tim respects Life Strategies author Dr. Phil McGraw; perhaps I could use McGraw's methods.

Netty wrote, "Find some space, surround yourself with what you want."

Excellent idea. I also need to find more fun in my life. If Tim wants to come with me-great-otherwise, I'll do it alone or with friends.

GOBAZOOKA1 wrote, "You might want to see what he knows about the history of AA and how it was founded. Ask him how people quit before AA was founded over fifty years ago."

Tim seems to know a lot about AA history. I'm not sure I want to debate this one with him because I suspect I'll hear how AA was a gift from God. It's hard to fight claims of messages from God.

Ben Bradley wrote that he preferred the word "abstinence" over the word "sobriety" as AA uses it.

I can go along with that. I'll use the word "abstinence" in future posts. Hopefully, I won't have a relapse.

Ben Bradley wrote, "...no way you will participate in 12-Step activities..."

I have to confess I was at Tim's pin night in August this year. But now I have decided I can't go to AA activities anymore. I have yet to inform Tim of this decision. I do not look forward to that conversation/argument. Years ago, I told Tim I would never set foot in a Mormon church again. He said my statement hurt him deeply. Regardless, I haven't been in a Morman church since.

wrote how "spiritual intoxication" leads to the AAer's neglect of family and responsibilities.

Seems Tim's been there, doing that.

Thanks again to all who wrote. Your insights are much appreciated.

November 16, 2001

Great to hear from you . Good luck, from an ausie bloke, doing the best he can.