Guest guest Posted October 26, 2001 Report Share Posted October 26, 2001 The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to the 12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people run away so fast. kisses Tom Boy kisses Tom Boy At 08:20 AM 26/10/01 -0400, you wrote: First, Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions. Second, to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to swallow all of Step Two right now. Looking back, I find that I took it piecemeal myself. Third, all you really need is a truly open mind. Just resign from the debating society and quit bothering yourself with such deep questions as whether it was the hen or the egg that came first. Again I say, all you need is the open mind. " ……………… My thoughts on this: First, AA is telling that I will not be forced to believe anything. Second, If AA says I will not be made to believe anything then why is there a need to the statement " to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to swallow all of Step Two right now. Does this mean that I will have to believe later? Third, It takes two sides to debate, I just try not to concern myself were other people beliefs. abbadun _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2001 Report Share Posted October 26, 2001 At 09:47 PM 10/26/01 -0700, Tomboy wrote: > >The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: > >Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. > > " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to the 12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. Actually, that's not even true. Bill wrote the 12 steps circa 1948, three years after the " official " start of AA. What the first 100 or so actually did were six things in the " word-of-mouth " program which was taken mostly from the Oxford Group. Here is an old file I wrote of two references to these six steps: From the pamphlet " Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W., Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous " : In substance, here they are, as my friend applied them to himself in 1934: 1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life. 2. He became honest with himself as never before; made an " examination of conscience. " 3. He made rigorous confession of his personal defects and thus quit living alone with his problems. 4. He surveyed his distorted relations with other people, visiting them to make what amends he could. 5. He resolved to devote himself to helping other people, without the usual demand for personal prestige or material gain. 6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for his life and the help to practice these principles of conduct at all times. From the book " The Language of The Heart " (Bill W.'s Grapevine Writings), p. 200: During the next three years after Dr. Bob's recovery, our growing groups at Akron, New York, and Cleveland evolved the so-called word- of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form a Society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our principles something like this: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol. 2. We got honest with ourselves. 3. We got honest with another person, in confidence. 4. We made amends for harms done others. 5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or money. 6. We prayed to God to help us do these things as best we could. > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people run away so fast. There's an argument by rabid AA fundamentalists that the steps ARE the program, but that's not totally true for any group. What's often said is that the steps are " suggested " in the same way that when you jump out of an airplane wearing a parachute, it is " suggested " that you pull the ripcord - in this and other ways, the meaning of " suggested " is perverted. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2001 Report Share Posted October 26, 2001 At 09:47 PM 10/26/01 -0700, Tomboy wrote: > >The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: > >Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. > > " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to the 12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. Actually, that's not even true. Bill wrote the 12 steps circa 1948, three years after the " official " start of AA. What the first 100 or so actually did were six things in the " word-of-mouth " program which was taken mostly from the Oxford Group. Here is an old file I wrote of two references to these six steps: From the pamphlet " Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W., Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous " : In substance, here they are, as my friend applied them to himself in 1934: 1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life. 2. He became honest with himself as never before; made an " examination of conscience. " 3. He made rigorous confession of his personal defects and thus quit living alone with his problems. 4. He surveyed his distorted relations with other people, visiting them to make what amends he could. 5. He resolved to devote himself to helping other people, without the usual demand for personal prestige or material gain. 6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for his life and the help to practice these principles of conduct at all times. From the book " The Language of The Heart " (Bill W.'s Grapevine Writings), p. 200: During the next three years after Dr. Bob's recovery, our growing groups at Akron, New York, and Cleveland evolved the so-called word- of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form a Society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our principles something like this: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol. 2. We got honest with ourselves. 3. We got honest with another person, in confidence. 4. We made amends for harms done others. 5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or money. 6. We prayed to God to help us do these things as best we could. > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people run away so fast. There's an argument by rabid AA fundamentalists that the steps ARE the program, but that's not totally true for any group. What's often said is that the steps are " suggested " in the same way that when you jump out of an airplane wearing a parachute, it is " suggested " that you pull the ripcord - in this and other ways, the meaning of " suggested " is perverted. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2001 Report Share Posted October 26, 2001 First of all, I nearly pissed myself laughing over the original six steps, very interesting, thank you. Back to the " suggested " steps, the current reading of Chapter 5 of Alcoholics Anonymous states clearly that " here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery " (two separate statements separated by a comma. Another interesting note, Steps 1-9 are written in the past tense and steps 10-12 are written in the present tense, which contradicts much of the folklore in AA about the steps (ie. you never *completely * finish step three, you have to take step three every day for the rest of your life, I turn my life over to God on a daily basis ...ad nauseum. Oh yeah and one other thing that I love about the book Alcoholics Anonymous (and this is really good info if you are still attending XA and want to piss off people big time) is at the beginning of the book where it states " The story of how many thousands of Men and Women have recovered from Alcoholism " . Go to a meeting and tell people you have recovered from Alcoholism and watch them flip out *yet* it is clearly stated (Third Edition Alcoholics Anonymous) that they considered themselves " recovered " from Alcoholism. kisses Tom Boy At 01:19 AM 27/10/01 -0400, you wrote: Actually, that's not even true. Bill wrote the 12 steps circa 1948, three years after the " official " start of AA. What the first 100 or so actually did were six things in the " word-of-mouth " program which was taken mostly from the Oxford Group. Here is an old file I wrote of two references to these six steps: From the pamphlet " Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W., Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous " : In substance, here they are, as my friend applied them to himself in 1934: 1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life. 2. He became honest with himself as never before; made an " examination of conscience. " 3. He made rigorous confession of his personal defects and thus quit living alone with his problems. 4. He surveyed his distorted relations with other people, visiting them to make what amends he could. 5. He resolved to devote himself to helping other people, without the usual demand for personal prestige or material gain. 6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for his life and the help to practice these principles of conduct at all times. From the book " The Language of The Heart " (Bill W.'s Grapevine Writings), p. 200: During the next three years after Dr. Bob's recovery, our growing groups at Akron, New York, and Cleveland evolved the so-called word- of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form a Society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our principles something like this: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol. 2. We got honest with ourselves. 3. We got honest with another person, in confidence. 4. We made amends for harms done others. 5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or money. 6. We prayed to God to help us do these things as best we could. > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people run away so fast. There's an argument by rabid AA fundamentalists that the steps ARE the program, but that's not totally true for any group. What's often said is that the steps are " suggested " in the same way that when you jump out of an airplane wearing a parachute, it is " suggested " that you pull the ripcord - in this and other ways, the meaning of " suggested " is perverted. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 Tonight at my meeting a 70 year lady shared that when she started out these suggestion always seem like orders, but that was as far as she would go with that thought in public. abbadun > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Step 2 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:47:54 -0700 > >The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: > >Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. >No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. > > " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to the >12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I >think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people >run away so fast. > >kisses >Tom Boy > >kisses >Tom Boy > > > >At 08:20 AM 26/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > >>First, Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All >>of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions. >> >>Second, to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to swallow all of >>Step Two right now. Looking back, I find that I took it piecemeal myself. >> >>Third, all you really need is a truly open mind. Just resign from the >>debating society and quit bothering yourself with such deep questions as >>whether it was the hen or the egg that came first. Again I say, all you >>need >>is the open mind. " ……………… >> >>My thoughts on this: >> >>First, AA is telling that I will not be forced to believe anything. >> >>Second, If AA says I will not be made to believe anything then why is >>there >>a need to the statement " to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to >>swallow all of Step Two right now. Does this mean that I will have to >>believe later? >> >>Third, It takes two sides to debate, I just try not to concern myself were >>other people beliefs. >> >>abbadun >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 Tonight at my meeting a 70 year lady shared that when she started out these suggestion always seem like orders, but that was as far as she would go with that thought in public. abbadun > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Step 2 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:47:54 -0700 > >The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: > >Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. >No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. > > " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to the >12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I >think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people >run away so fast. > >kisses >Tom Boy > >kisses >Tom Boy > > > >At 08:20 AM 26/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > >>First, Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All >>of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions. >> >>Second, to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to swallow all of >>Step Two right now. Looking back, I find that I took it piecemeal myself. >> >>Third, all you really need is a truly open mind. Just resign from the >>debating society and quit bothering yourself with such deep questions as >>whether it was the hen or the egg that came first. Again I say, all you >>need >>is the open mind. " ……………… >> >>My thoughts on this: >> >>First, AA is telling that I will not be forced to believe anything. >> >>Second, If AA says I will not be made to believe anything then why is >>there >>a need to the statement " to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to >>swallow all of Step Two right now. Does this mean that I will have to >>believe later? >> >>Third, It takes two sides to debate, I just try not to concern myself were >>other people beliefs. >> >>abbadun >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 Tonight at my meeting a 70 year lady shared that when she started out these suggestion always seem like orders, but that was as far as she would go with that thought in public. abbadun > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Step 2 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:47:54 -0700 > >The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: > >Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. >No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. > > " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to the >12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I >think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people >run away so fast. > >kisses >Tom Boy > >kisses >Tom Boy > > > >At 08:20 AM 26/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > >>First, Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All >>of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions. >> >>Second, to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to swallow all of >>Step Two right now. Looking back, I find that I took it piecemeal myself. >> >>Third, all you really need is a truly open mind. Just resign from the >>debating society and quit bothering yourself with such deep questions as >>whether it was the hen or the egg that came first. Again I say, all you >>need >>is the open mind. " ……………… >> >>My thoughts on this: >> >>First, AA is telling that I will not be forced to believe anything. >> >>Second, If AA says I will not be made to believe anything then why is >>there >>a need to the statement " to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to >>swallow all of Step Two right now. Does this mean that I will have to >>believe later? >> >>Third, It takes two sides to debate, I just try not to concern myself were >>other people beliefs. >> >>abbadun >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 Well I use the few printed words of reason and fairness in the AA books to. 1. be a Atheist in AA 2. not use a doorknob as my higher power (heck if I am not going to use a god, then to go any further is stupid) 3. pratice free speech in AA It is not easy and I do not make a lot of friends in AA, but that is not what I go to meetings for anyway. > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Step 2 >Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:19:54 -0400 > >At 09:47 PM 10/26/01 -0700, Tomboy wrote: > > > >The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: > > > >Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. >No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. > > > > " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to >the 12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. > > Actually, that's not even true. Bill wrote the 12 steps circa 1948, >three years after the " official " start of AA. What the first 100 or so >actually did were six things in the " word-of-mouth " program which was >taken mostly from the Oxford Group. > Here is an old file I wrote of two references to these six steps: > > From the pamphlet " Three Talks to Medical Societies >by Bill W., Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous " : > > In substance, here they are, as my friend applied >them to himself in 1934: > > 1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to > manage his own life. > 2. He became honest with himself as never > before; made an " examination of > conscience. " > 3. He made rigorous confession of his personal > defects and thus quit living alone with > his problems. > 4. He surveyed his distorted relations with > other people, visiting them to make what > amends he could. > 5. He resolved to devote himself to helping > other people, without the usual demand for > personal prestige or material gain. > 6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for > his life and the help to practice these > principles of conduct at all times. > > From the book " The Language of The Heart " (Bill W.'s >Grapevine Writings), p. 200: > > During the next three years after Dr. Bob's recovery, our growing >groups at Akron, New York, and Cleveland evolved the so-called word- >of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form a >Society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our >principles something like this: > > 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol. > 2. We got honest with ourselves. > 3. We got honest with another person, in confidence. > 4. We made amends for harms done others. > 5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or >money. > 6. We prayed to God to help us do these things as best we could. > > > > > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . > >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > > > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I >think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people >run away so fast. > > There's an argument by rabid AA fundamentalists that the steps ARE the >program, but that's not totally true for any group. > What's often said is that the steps are " suggested " in the same way >that >when you jump out of an airplane wearing a parachute, it is " suggested " >that you pull the ripcord - in this and other ways, the meaning of > " suggested " is perverted. > >---------- >http://listen.to/benbradley _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 Well I use the few printed words of reason and fairness in the AA books to. 1. be a Atheist in AA 2. not use a doorknob as my higher power (heck if I am not going to use a god, then to go any further is stupid) 3. pratice free speech in AA It is not easy and I do not make a lot of friends in AA, but that is not what I go to meetings for anyway. > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Step 2 >Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:19:54 -0400 > >At 09:47 PM 10/26/01 -0700, Tomboy wrote: > > > >The twelve steps of XA are *not* suggestions, this is how it reads: > > > >Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery. >No where does it ever suggest that the steps are suggestions. > > > > " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to >the 12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. > > Actually, that's not even true. Bill wrote the 12 steps circa 1948, >three years after the " official " start of AA. What the first 100 or so >actually did were six things in the " word-of-mouth " program which was >taken mostly from the Oxford Group. > Here is an old file I wrote of two references to these six steps: > > From the pamphlet " Three Talks to Medical Societies >by Bill W., Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous " : > > In substance, here they are, as my friend applied >them to himself in 1934: > > 1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to > manage his own life. > 2. He became honest with himself as never > before; made an " examination of > conscience. " > 3. He made rigorous confession of his personal > defects and thus quit living alone with > his problems. > 4. He surveyed his distorted relations with > other people, visiting them to make what > amends he could. > 5. He resolved to devote himself to helping > other people, without the usual demand for > personal prestige or material gain. > 6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for > his life and the help to practice these > principles of conduct at all times. > > From the book " The Language of The Heart " (Bill W.'s >Grapevine Writings), p. 200: > > During the next three years after Dr. Bob's recovery, our growing >groups at Akron, New York, and Cleveland evolved the so-called word- >of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form a >Society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our >principles something like this: > > 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol. > 2. We got honest with ourselves. > 3. We got honest with another person, in confidence. > 4. We made amends for harms done others. > 5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or >money. > 6. We prayed to God to help us do these things as best we could. > > > > > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . > >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > > > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I >think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people >run away so fast. > > There's an argument by rabid AA fundamentalists that the steps ARE the >program, but that's not totally true for any group. > What's often said is that the steps are " suggested " in the same way >that >when you jump out of an airplane wearing a parachute, it is " suggested " >that you pull the ripcord - in this and other ways, the meaning of > " suggested " is perverted. > >---------- >http://listen.to/benbradley _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 > The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I > think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people > run away so fast. > Tom Boy, that is how a cult gains a hold on newcomers. When I first came into the rooms, I had heard at many different meetings how the steps or other statements were only a suggestion and how the opinions of AA/NA members were just that. I was told to take what I wanted and to leave the rest. I thought I had found Utopia! Was I ever hoodwinked. Little by little, I was told that I must do what my sponsor dictated if I wanted to stay clean and that I had to listen to what the other gurus said. The longest I had a sponsor during my eight years in the program was a little over three years. I had tried another sponsor for like a week after the first sponsor but she made a pass at me so I got rid of her fast. Anytime I mentioned how I was sponsor-less, I was told that I needed to find another woman to sponsor me. ly, I think the AA/NAers were scared that I was able to make it without a sponsor. That would mean that I could not continue to be indoctrinated by the cult. Ditching my sponsors was the first step to regaining my freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 > The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I > think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people > run away so fast. > Tom Boy, that is how a cult gains a hold on newcomers. When I first came into the rooms, I had heard at many different meetings how the steps or other statements were only a suggestion and how the opinions of AA/NA members were just that. I was told to take what I wanted and to leave the rest. I thought I had found Utopia! Was I ever hoodwinked. Little by little, I was told that I must do what my sponsor dictated if I wanted to stay clean and that I had to listen to what the other gurus said. The longest I had a sponsor during my eight years in the program was a little over three years. I had tried another sponsor for like a week after the first sponsor but she made a pass at me so I got rid of her fast. Anytime I mentioned how I was sponsor-less, I was told that I needed to find another woman to sponsor me. ly, I think the AA/NAers were scared that I was able to make it without a sponsor. That would mean that I could not continue to be indoctrinated by the cult. Ditching my sponsors was the first step to regaining my freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2001 Report Share Posted October 28, 2001 I > think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people > run away so fast. Ease people into the program or ease the progam into people? The " suggestion " thing kind of sounds like vasoline or KY jelly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2001 Report Share Posted October 28, 2001 I > think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people > run away so fast. Ease people into the program or ease the progam into people? The " suggestion " thing kind of sounds like vasoline or KY jelly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2001 Report Share Posted October 28, 2001 I > think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people > run away so fast. Ease people into the program or ease the progam into people? The " suggestion " thing kind of sounds like vasoline or KY jelly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2001 Report Share Posted October 28, 2001 When something is printed as a rule I expect it to be followed. abbadun > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Step 2 >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:54:17 -0000 > > I > > think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make >people > > run away so fast. > >Ease people into the program or ease the progam into people? The > " suggestion " thing kind of sounds like vasoline or KY jelly. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2001 Report Share Posted October 28, 2001 I've been gone from the list for a while. I wasn't aware of any written rules. Are they on the groups homepage? Sorry. --- abbadun _ abbadun@...> wrote: > When something is printed as a rule I expect it to > be followed. > > abbadun > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-free > >To: 12-step-free > >Subject: Re: Step 2 > >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:54:17 -0000 > > > > I > > > think this is a way to *ease* people into the > program and won't make > >people > > > run away so fast. > > > >Ease people into the program or ease the progam > into people? The > > " suggestion " thing kind of sounds like vasoline or > KY jelly. > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2001 Report Share Posted October 28, 2001 At 06:36 PM 10/28/01 -0800, Jurasin wrote: >I've been gone from the list for a while. I wasn't >aware of any written rules. Are they on the groups >homepage? Sorry. No, there are no such rules here, this has basically been the same list since its inception. This post from abbadun has me a bit confused too. It's an indirect reference to " something printed as a rule " , but there's no real statement of what that something is. Also the tone of " I expect... " is a bit presumptuous, like something a troll would say. abbadun, would you care to clear this up? > > > > >--- abbadun _ abbadun@...> wrote: >> When something is printed as a rule I expect it to >> be followed. >> >> abbadun >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Reply-To: 12-step-free >> >To: 12-step-free >> >Subject: Re: Step 2 >> >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:54:17 -0000 >> > >> > I >> > > think this is a way to *ease* people into the >> program and won't make >> >people >> > > run away so fast. >> > >> >Ease people into the program or ease the progam >> into people? The >> > " suggestion " thing kind of sounds like vasoline or >> KY jelly. >> > >> > ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Sorry I should have wrote that better. I meant that when I see it written in step two that AA will not make me believe an anything I believe it. abbadun > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Re: Step 2 >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:36:52 -0800 (PST) > >I've been gone from the list for a while. I wasn't >aware of any written rules. Are they on the groups >homepage? Sorry. > > > > >--- abbadun _ abbadun@...> wrote: > > When something is printed as a rule I expect it to > > be followed. > > > > abbadun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-free > > >To: 12-step-free > > >Subject: Re: Step 2 > > >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:54:17 -0000 > > > > > > I > > > > think this is a way to *ease* people into the > > program and won't make > > >people > > > > run away so fast. > > > > > >Ease people into the program or ease the progam > > into people? The > > > " suggestion " thing kind of sounds like vasoline or > > KY jelly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 > What's often said is that the steps are " suggested " in the same way that > when you jump out of an airplane wearing a parachute, it is " suggested " > that you pull the ripcord - in this and other ways, the meaning of > " suggested " is perverted. The Orwellian manipulation of language is one of the most frightening aspects of Steppism. On the About.com AAlcoholism forum (that isnt one of my many typos) there was one woman who defended AA coercion, having been coerced herself. She called it the judge " Suggesting " AA. Huh? I " suggest " you go to AA or I throw your ass in gaol? Talk about an offer you cant refuse. Even more stupid of course, was the fact that she admitted it didnt make any difference to her drinking, she continued drinking for years afterward! Overt religious fundies usu have a simple honsesty - This Book is literally God's word and that's all that matters - the capacity of the AA Qaeda to talk out of both sides of their mouth and their ass at the same time is terrifying. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Hi Tomboy, You wont laugh at me if I admit to being closet stepper enough to say that those original steps arent all that awful? I see AA as like Ripley in " Alien Resurrection " - , a mutant clone of something beautiful - not all that bad to look at and trying to be a nice guy but with a monster inside it and acid in its veins. Actually iirc *all* the 12 steps are in a past tense? I'm not a linguist but I think the last three might be in the " Past Imperfect " , e.g. *Sought* through prayer and meditiation (Past Tense) ... *praying* only for knowledge of His Will... (apparently Present but actually a clause of the previous verbal phrase and hence Past Imperfect - it is not automatically suggestive they are still performing the action). Originally the steps were Imperative - DO THIS, DO THAT. They were " suggestified " to make them more palatable. It is intereesting though that Past (even if Imperfect) Tense is maintained for the last three steps, even though they are often called the " maintenance steps " and are said to be needed to be done continuosly for the rest of your days. Why do they not use Present Tense here? My feeling is that is part of the desire to sell you a package, a *permanent* cure for alcoholism, and hence it is done in the past tense to increase the sense of a once off rather than continual process, which again makes it more palatable. It simultaneously allows the position that they are solely suggestive, while at the same time allows sponsors to melodaramatically say, as mine did, " these are the steps we TOOK, PAST TENSE " ., i.e. you HAVE to do them. One thing that fascinates me is that the text that has become known as " The Promises " is written in the FUTURE TENSE, not even the Present. why should that be? I think the answer to that one is that even those first AA members were STILL WAITING for them even when they were first published! The chronic depressive and his colleagues were trying to reassure THEMSELVES that the Promised Land lay just around the corner, as much as anybody reading the book! P. > > > Actually, that's not even true. Bill wrote the 12 steps circa 1948, > >three years after the " official " start of AA. What the first 100 or so > >actually did were six things in the " word-of-mouth " program which was > >taken mostly from the Oxford Group. > > Here is an old file I wrote of two references to these six steps: > > > > From the pamphlet " Three Talks to Medical Societies > >by Bill W., Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous " : > > > > In substance, here they are, as my friend applied > >them to himself in 1934: > > > > 1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to > > manage his own life. > > 2. He became honest with himself as never > > before; made an " examination of > > conscience. " > > 3. He made rigorous confession of his personal > > defects and thus quit living alone with > > his problems. > > 4. He surveyed his distorted relations with > > other people, visiting them to make what > > amends he could. > > 5. He resolved to devote himself to helping > > other people, without the usual demand for > > personal prestige or material gain. > > 6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for > > his life and the help to practice these > > principles of conduct at all times. > > > > From the book " The Language of The Heart " (Bill W.'s > >Grapevine Writings), p. 200: > > > > During the next three years after Dr. Bob's recovery, our growing > >groups at Akron, New York, and Cleveland evolved the so-called word- > >of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form a > >Society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our > >principles something like this: > > > > 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol. > > 2. We got honest with ourselves. > > 3. We got honest with another person, in confidence. > > 4. We made amends for harms done others. > > 5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or > >money. > > 6. We prayed to God to help us do these things as best we could. > > > > > > > > > " Which are suggested as a program of recovery " . > > >The steps are not suggested, the program of XA is. > > > > > >The idea that the steps are " suggested " is rampant in 12 step programs. I > >think this is a way to *ease* people into the program and won't make people > >run away so fast. > > > > There's an argument by rabid AA fundamentalists that the steps ARE the > >program, but that's not totally true for any group. > > What's often said is that the steps are " suggested " in the same way that > >when you jump out of an airplane wearing a parachute, it is " suggested " > >that you pull the ripcord - in this and other ways, the meaning of > > " suggested " is perverted. > > > >---------- > >http://listen.to/benbradley > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 ly, I think the AA/NAers were scared that I was > able to make it without a sponsor. That would mean that I could not > continue to be indoctrinated by the cult. Ditching my sponsors was > the first step to regaining my freedom. Yep. It is interesting that Rita's tormentors would ask her if she had a SMART sponsor, although SMART does not have sponsors. The idea of Group conformity *and* submission to a guru seem to be very important to Steppers - individualism frightens the life out of them. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 Hi No written rules. I think Abbadun was referring to a bit of AA literature that contradicts the idea that the Steps are merely suggestions. He previously quoted a but that suggested that Step 2 must be taken eventually, and presumably all the others. P. > > When something is printed as a rule I expect it to > > be followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 At 01:19 AM 10/27/01 -0400, Ben Bradley wrote: >At 09:47 PM 10/26/01 -0700, Tomboy wrote: >> " Here are the steps we took " is written in the past tense, referring to >the 12 steps that the first 100 cult members took. > > Actually, that's not even true. Bill wrote the 12 steps circa 1948, Just for the record, this was 1938, not 1948. I was glancing through old messages and just caught this mistake. AA was " officially " started in 1935, and the big book was mostly written in 1938, and published in 1939. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.