Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 hey bret, below is a repost from my account from a few weeks ago when i had short talk with a stepper. there really is almost no point in talking reason with them. for to acknowledge people can be sober and happy without them is a contradiction of their teaching that you NEED AA and the Program to remain sober. i liken it to the HAl 9000 computer in 2001 which went nuts because it was given 2 contradictory instructions 1) to protect to crew. 2) sacrifice the crew if them interfered with the mission. the thing is to question their assumptions. they take it for granted they have the answer for everything recovery related and pass that arrogance down to people they meet about how it works and why alcoholics need the Program. but they almost never are prepare for a follow up questions. simple questions like i asked the guy below " who says? " are effective because the " who " is this collective identity of AA, but there is no evidence or fact behind almost any of their proclamations, fear mongering and boasts. its all hearsay evidence. and because so much of this AA identity has been programmed by reinforcement of countless meetings where members recite the same information, its easy to anticipate their arguments and expose their flaws and gaping holes in reason and fact. because most of their arguments are designed to persuade those who are at their most vulnerable, who don't have all the facts about AA history and practices at their disposal, not those who are beyond Addiction and AA. when faced with that, they end up resorting to what Bill34543 has done, his post is case study in AA defense and attack. accuse the critics of being " angry " ( probably the most common attack) or just ignorant of the writings, and that they met a few bad apples who arent representative of AA. " the " real " aa is found in the writings. " once you see thru it, tthere isnt much to say to them and probbaly no point either. ----------------- well i just got 12 stepped. i ws at gym and i over heard these 2 guys talking about gong to a meeting in town, and joking about how guys go to meetings and try to " pickup " women and at 1 meeting there 13 guys and 1 female. i respond yeah, their are people who prey on women all the time at AA. and this 1 guys says " yeah, it s called 13th stepping " . i lamely just say, yeah i know. i have been sober 5 years and out of AA 4. at this point i pretty much want to make that im out of AA a point with thisguy. he congratulates me and say he is having his 1 year anniversary tomorrow in NA. i congratulate him and say his friends and family must be happy for him. he then asks me somberly why im not in AA. i didn't want to get into with this guy about the cult and all, i never see point with people who like being in the " Program " . i respond i left. him: well are you working the steps and traditions? me: no, i dont need that to be sober. he then looks at me like i said i wanted to go parachuting without a chute (which of course is how they literally see it) , " well you know they say there are only small number of people, can to do that, that many go back to using " (apparently he doesn't understand, that even if that were true, then i must be one of those " small number " and this no need for the grave tone of voice). this pisses me off because now this is official 12-step call by him, i say defiantly " who says that? " he responds the people in program or something unclear. i state that there is no evidence for that, that in fact the evidence shows that at best there is no better success for people in a 12 step program and no program at all " . and that those who say otherwise have a vested interest indoing so. upon hearing that he walks away. and i am pissed because i feel that the culthas just tried to infect my being with doubt about ability to be sober without it through thisself described " newcomer " . part of me wanted to ask this guy if NA works so well, where are all theold-timer sin his program if so many have gotten sober there over years, what about the spirituality of these 13th steppers? and go into a long AA is a cult diatribe and tell him about wilson and belladonna etc.. and part of me just says fuck it, whats the point? at best i will have planted the seed of knowledge that people can leave aa andlive sober. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 > he then asks me somberly why im not in AA. i didn't want to get > into with this guy about the cult and all, i never see point with > people who like being in the " Program " . As they say in AA, planting a seed... I am a planter, buddy. A lot of people in AA have NEVER heard anyone speak against AA. They sure as hell should. > this pisses me off because now this is official 12-step call by > him, i say defiantly " who says that? " he responds the people in > program or something unclear. > > i state that there is no evidence for that, that in fact the evidence > shows that at best there is no better success for people in a 12 > step program and no program at all " . and that those who say > otherwise have a vested interest indoing so. He has never heard that, so good job man. I like to say this stuff at AA meetings. When they ask why I am here, I say " don't wanna drink. " > upon hearing that he walks away. and i am pissed because i > feel that the cult has just tried to infect my being with doubt about > ability to be sober without it through thisself described > " newcomer " . Well, of course. Same as a Christian telling you that you will burn in hell for not going to his church. That may not happen everyday in this country, but it does happen, all over the world. They call that " witnessing " - spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ... AA is a religion, and it's gospel is spread by its devotees and zealots just the same. The whole idea is to get you to stop trusting yourself, and hand your will and your life over to the group/church/god/hp... sowing those seeds. > part of me wanted to ask this guy if NA works so well, where are > all theold-timer sin his program if so many have gotten sober > there over years, what about the spirituality of these 13th > steppers? and go into a long AA is a cult diatribe and tell him > about wilson and belladonna etc.. and part of me just says fuck > it, whats the point? Well, nobody said you had to, but part of you wanted to. Probably because that part of you knows exactly where he is. I said I go to meetings and stir it up, not because I am the saviour of " anonymous alcoholics " , but for more selfish reasons... that I might find someone locally who might come to understand what the fine people on this list are so frequently discussing. Or meet a really hot 21 year old that got coerced into AA and thinks its a crock just like I do. And because I want AA to die! die! lol sorry I got off topic. > at best i will have planted the seed of knowledge that people can > leave aa andlive sober. oh, yeah thats what I said... teach me to read the whole post before I start responding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 > he then asks me somberly why im not in AA. i didn't want to get > into with this guy about the cult and all, i never see point with > people who like being in the " Program " . As they say in AA, planting a seed... I am a planter, buddy. A lot of people in AA have NEVER heard anyone speak against AA. They sure as hell should. > this pisses me off because now this is official 12-step call by > him, i say defiantly " who says that? " he responds the people in > program or something unclear. > > i state that there is no evidence for that, that in fact the evidence > shows that at best there is no better success for people in a 12 > step program and no program at all " . and that those who say > otherwise have a vested interest indoing so. He has never heard that, so good job man. I like to say this stuff at AA meetings. When they ask why I am here, I say " don't wanna drink. " > upon hearing that he walks away. and i am pissed because i > feel that the cult has just tried to infect my being with doubt about > ability to be sober without it through thisself described > " newcomer " . Well, of course. Same as a Christian telling you that you will burn in hell for not going to his church. That may not happen everyday in this country, but it does happen, all over the world. They call that " witnessing " - spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ... AA is a religion, and it's gospel is spread by its devotees and zealots just the same. The whole idea is to get you to stop trusting yourself, and hand your will and your life over to the group/church/god/hp... sowing those seeds. > part of me wanted to ask this guy if NA works so well, where are > all theold-timer sin his program if so many have gotten sober > there over years, what about the spirituality of these 13th > steppers? and go into a long AA is a cult diatribe and tell him > about wilson and belladonna etc.. and part of me just says fuck > it, whats the point? Well, nobody said you had to, but part of you wanted to. Probably because that part of you knows exactly where he is. I said I go to meetings and stir it up, not because I am the saviour of " anonymous alcoholics " , but for more selfish reasons... that I might find someone locally who might come to understand what the fine people on this list are so frequently discussing. Or meet a really hot 21 year old that got coerced into AA and thinks its a crock just like I do. And because I want AA to die! die! lol sorry I got off topic. > at best i will have planted the seed of knowledge that people can > leave aa andlive sober. oh, yeah thats what I said... teach me to read the whole post before I start responding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 > Darn it! I knew I would do that. Sorry Bret. The correct message > number is 34545. > > - At first I was very relieved to know you weren't that other guy... I was glad he was gone... but then I looked at the post you meant to refer to and it is just too big. Wow. I'll try to read it. Hope you are doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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