Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > America. > > Steve > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > America. > > Steve > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > America. > > Steve > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > From what I have heard, in the state of Washington, all defendants suspected of *possibly* having a substance use disorder are PROFESSIONALLY assessed. Professional assessments go into a lot of detail about medical, legal, and personal/social/job history, and use corroborating sources. If the assessment shows no clinical disorder present, the judge accepts that -- in DUI cases, the person would then be mandated to attend a brief educational session in addition to any fine or license suspension. But " treatment " of any kind is only ordered if a professional evaluation determines that the individual meets the criteria for a substance use disorder -- and even then, there are different levels of treatment for mild " substance abuse " than for a " substance dependency " diagnosis. > > Probably the WA system has some flaws -- but I think it's a hell of an improvement over letting a JUDGE decide what diagnosis and treatment DUI defendents merit. > > And no, it is NOT generally " obvious " that any particular person is alcohol dependent -- really, anyone can make an error in judgement and obtain a DUI. Most often, it is a one-time thing and neither " treatment " nor total abstinence is warranted. > > ~Rita Ok, let's cut to brass tacks again. If a professional counselor in Washington State said, upon evaluation after a criminal conviction for an alcohol-related crime, " Ms. X (or Ms. Rita), we believe you need to go to a sobriety support group, " what then? Do you still have a blanket objection to coerced non-religious sobriety groups for convicted criminals? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > From what I have heard, in the state of Washington, all defendants suspected of *possibly* having a substance use disorder are PROFESSIONALLY assessed. Professional assessments go into a lot of detail about medical, legal, and personal/social/job history, and use corroborating sources. If the assessment shows no clinical disorder present, the judge accepts that -- in DUI cases, the person would then be mandated to attend a brief educational session in addition to any fine or license suspension. But " treatment " of any kind is only ordered if a professional evaluation determines that the individual meets the criteria for a substance use disorder -- and even then, there are different levels of treatment for mild " substance abuse " than for a " substance dependency " diagnosis. > > Probably the WA system has some flaws -- but I think it's a hell of an improvement over letting a JUDGE decide what diagnosis and treatment DUI defendents merit. > > And no, it is NOT generally " obvious " that any particular person is alcohol dependent -- really, anyone can make an error in judgement and obtain a DUI. Most often, it is a one-time thing and neither " treatment " nor total abstinence is warranted. > > ~Rita Ok, let's cut to brass tacks again. If a professional counselor in Washington State said, upon evaluation after a criminal conviction for an alcohol-related crime, " Ms. X (or Ms. Rita), we believe you need to go to a sobriety support group, " what then? Do you still have a blanket objection to coerced non-religious sobriety groups for convicted criminals? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > From what I have heard, in the state of Washington, all defendants suspected of *possibly* having a substance use disorder are PROFESSIONALLY assessed. Professional assessments go into a lot of detail about medical, legal, and personal/social/job history, and use corroborating sources. If the assessment shows no clinical disorder present, the judge accepts that -- in DUI cases, the person would then be mandated to attend a brief educational session in addition to any fine or license suspension. But " treatment " of any kind is only ordered if a professional evaluation determines that the individual meets the criteria for a substance use disorder -- and even then, there are different levels of treatment for mild " substance abuse " than for a " substance dependency " diagnosis. > > Probably the WA system has some flaws -- but I think it's a hell of an improvement over letting a JUDGE decide what diagnosis and treatment DUI defendents merit. > > And no, it is NOT generally " obvious " that any particular person is alcohol dependent -- really, anyone can make an error in judgement and obtain a DUI. Most often, it is a one-time thing and neither " treatment " nor total abstinence is warranted. > > ~Rita Ok, let's cut to brass tacks again. If a professional counselor in Washington State said, upon evaluation after a criminal conviction for an alcohol-related crime, " Ms. X (or Ms. Rita), we believe you need to go to a sobriety support group, " what then? Do you still have a blanket objection to coerced non-religious sobriety groups for convicted criminals? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 : I drank and drove for two years, on a suspended license (not alcohol related). I got sober, insured, etc. and was involved in two accidents. I totaled my truck stoned cold sober. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 : I drank and drove for two years, on a suspended license (not alcohol related). I got sober, insured, etc. and was involved in two accidents. I totaled my truck stoned cold sober. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 : I reread. I didn't find it offensive at all. Mona: I'm very sorry you lost your son. Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- In a message dated 8/11/01 3:05:18 PM Central Daylight Time, malgeo@... writes: << At 07:51 PM 8/11/01 +0000, you wrote: >, thanks for your tact. In your response to a woman's >admission of her son's murder you say that the world is a funny >place. These two sentences just do not seem to belong anywhere near >each other, certainly not in the same message. > I apologize for attacking over something I am sure you did not >intend, but it just really hit a nerve somehow. Go back and read it again. I didn't say it in response to her mentioning her son's death; I said it in response to a later comment. I'll leave it below so that you can reread it. > > > >>Just FYI, when my son was killed as a passenger in a vehicle, he >had quite a > > >bit of alcohol in his sytem. The driver, however, was stone cold >sobner, and > > > " merely " driving like an idiot. However, because of my son's BAC >the paper > > >reported the accident as " alcohol-related. " > > > > I've learned to regard the phrase " alcohol-related " as something of > > a red flag. It's essentially meaningless. > > > > It's also rather disrespectful to your son's memory. > > > > >However, that the driver was not drunk was a mere fluke. He >drives drunk all > > >the time, before and since. > > > > The world's a funny place. I've driven drunk, and have never had >an > > accident. Yet I've been involved in several accidents, including >one > > full-blown wreck which landed me in the emergency room, and in > > none of those accidents had anyone involved consumed any alcohol. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 : I reread. I didn't find it offensive at all. Mona: I'm very sorry you lost your son. Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- In a message dated 8/11/01 3:05:18 PM Central Daylight Time, malgeo@... writes: << At 07:51 PM 8/11/01 +0000, you wrote: >, thanks for your tact. In your response to a woman's >admission of her son's murder you say that the world is a funny >place. These two sentences just do not seem to belong anywhere near >each other, certainly not in the same message. > I apologize for attacking over something I am sure you did not >intend, but it just really hit a nerve somehow. Go back and read it again. I didn't say it in response to her mentioning her son's death; I said it in response to a later comment. I'll leave it below so that you can reread it. > > > >>Just FYI, when my son was killed as a passenger in a vehicle, he >had quite a > > >bit of alcohol in his sytem. The driver, however, was stone cold >sobner, and > > > " merely " driving like an idiot. However, because of my son's BAC >the paper > > >reported the accident as " alcohol-related. " > > > > I've learned to regard the phrase " alcohol-related " as something of > > a red flag. It's essentially meaningless. > > > > It's also rather disrespectful to your son's memory. > > > > >However, that the driver was not drunk was a mere fluke. He >drives drunk all > > >the time, before and since. > > > > The world's a funny place. I've driven drunk, and have never had >an > > accident. Yet I've been involved in several accidents, including >one > > full-blown wreck which landed me in the emergency room, and in > > none of those accidents had anyone involved consumed any alcohol. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 I think 95% of accidents involve speeding vehicles... I think what we need to cure our country is speeders anonymous meetings > > > >That ***still*** leaves 60 percent of alcohol-related fatalities, or 24 > > > >percent of all traffic fatalities, caused by alcohol- influenced drivers. > > > > > >That might not be too far off as an estimate. It still sounds a > > >little high to me, but probably not absurdly so. > > > >It sounds " a little high but not absurdly so, " in spite of my bend-over > >backwards generousness in weeding out non drinking-driver as the only person > >accidents? > >I would say, more likely, no more than 15 percent of alcohol- related > >fatalities have a passenger drinking, but not the driver, and 10 percent > >have a pedestrian drinking, not the driver. > >That leaves 3/4 of that 40 percent, or 30 percent of all fatalities, caused > >by a drinking driver. > > You forgot to factor in weather, crummy roads, drivers who are > speeding but sober, mechanical failure, and a whole lot of other > things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 I think 95% of accidents involve speeding vehicles... I think what we need to cure our country is speeders anonymous meetings > > > >That ***still*** leaves 60 percent of alcohol-related fatalities, or 24 > > > >percent of all traffic fatalities, caused by alcohol- influenced drivers. > > > > > >That might not be too far off as an estimate. It still sounds a > > >little high to me, but probably not absurdly so. > > > >It sounds " a little high but not absurdly so, " in spite of my bend-over > >backwards generousness in weeding out non drinking-driver as the only person > >accidents? > >I would say, more likely, no more than 15 percent of alcohol- related > >fatalities have a passenger drinking, but not the driver, and 10 percent > >have a pedestrian drinking, not the driver. > >That leaves 3/4 of that 40 percent, or 30 percent of all fatalities, caused > >by a drinking driver. > > You forgot to factor in weather, crummy roads, drivers who are > speeding but sober, mechanical failure, and a whole lot of other > things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > > America. > > > Steve > > > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. > > As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? > Steve Thats right dickhead I have never thought about it before. It came from your mouth and is therefore wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > > America. > > > Steve > > > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. > > As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? > Steve Thats right dickhead I have never thought about it before. It came from your mouth and is therefore wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. > > > > As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? > > Steve > > Thats right dickhead I have never thought about it before. It came > from your mouth and is therefore wrong. Oh, I've been cut to the heart! Slain by such witty repartee. Stve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. > > > > As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? > > Steve > > Thats right dickhead I have never thought about it before. It came > from your mouth and is therefore wrong. Oh, I've been cut to the heart! Slain by such witty repartee. Stve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. > > > > As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? > > Steve > > Thats right dickhead I have never thought about it before. It came > from your mouth and is therefore wrong. Oh, I've been cut to the heart! Slain by such witty repartee. Stve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 For all those without a dictionary or a vocabulary that's got to be inferior to the Big Steve - xenophobia is a fear of foreigners. Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- In a message dated 8/11/01 9:58:38 PM Central Daylight Time, steverino63@... writes: << > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > America. > > Steve > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? Steve >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 For all those without a dictionary or a vocabulary that's got to be inferior to the Big Steve - xenophobia is a fear of foreigners. Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- In a message dated 8/11/01 9:58:38 PM Central Daylight Time, steverino63@... writes: << > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > America. > > Steve > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? Steve >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 For all those without a dictionary or a vocabulary that's got to be inferior to the Big Steve - xenophobia is a fear of foreigners. Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- In a message dated 8/11/01 9:58:38 PM Central Daylight Time, steverino63@... writes: << > > European countries, in general, have lower to much lower BACs than > America. > > Steve > > What " works " in Europe is wonderful propaganda, too. As opposed to unconsidered, nonreflective, xenophobic propaganda? Steve >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 cool guy wrote: > I think 95% of accidents involve speeding vehicles... I think what > we need to cure our country is speeders anonymous meetings Coolguy, Perhaps what we need even more is M.A., Murderers Anonymous and maybe have the court system mandate group meetings for anyone accused of conspiracy that denies it, Conspirators Anonymous. Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 cool guy wrote: > I think 95% of accidents involve speeding vehicles... I think what > we need to cure our country is speeders anonymous meetings Coolguy, Perhaps what we need even more is M.A., Murderers Anonymous and maybe have the court system mandate group meetings for anyone accused of conspiracy that denies it, Conspirators Anonymous. Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > >It sounds " a little high but not absurdly so, " in spite of my bend-over > >backwards generousness in weeding out non drinking-driver as the only person > >accidents? > >I would say, more likely, no more than 15 percent of alcohol-related > >fatalities have a passenger drinking, but not the driver, and 10 percent > >have a pedestrian drinking, not the driver. > >That leaves 3/4 of that 40 percent, or 30 percent of all fatalities, caused > >by a drinking driver. > > You forgot to factor in weather, crummy roads, drivers who are > speeding but sober, mechanical failure, and a whole lot of other > things. No, I didn't " forget. " As an alcohol-impaired driver has lowered reaction times, especially in adverse conditions, most of those items should not be factored out. To factor them out, IMO, is giving a drinking driver a " free pass " on impaired ability to drive. Almost, as it were, enabling them. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > >It sounds " a little high but not absurdly so, " in spite of my bend-over > >backwards generousness in weeding out non drinking-driver as the only person > >accidents? > >I would say, more likely, no more than 15 percent of alcohol-related > >fatalities have a passenger drinking, but not the driver, and 10 percent > >have a pedestrian drinking, not the driver. > >That leaves 3/4 of that 40 percent, or 30 percent of all fatalities, caused > >by a drinking driver. > > You forgot to factor in weather, crummy roads, drivers who are > speeding but sober, mechanical failure, and a whole lot of other > things. No, I didn't " forget. " As an alcohol-impaired driver has lowered reaction times, especially in adverse conditions, most of those items should not be factored out. To factor them out, IMO, is giving a drinking driver a " free pass " on impaired ability to drive. Almost, as it were, enabling them. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > >It sounds " a little high but not absurdly so, " in spite of my bend-over > >backwards generousness in weeding out non drinking-driver as the only person > >accidents? > >I would say, more likely, no more than 15 percent of alcohol-related > >fatalities have a passenger drinking, but not the driver, and 10 percent > >have a pedestrian drinking, not the driver. > >That leaves 3/4 of that 40 percent, or 30 percent of all fatalities, caused > >by a drinking driver. > > You forgot to factor in weather, crummy roads, drivers who are > speeding but sober, mechanical failure, and a whole lot of other > things. No, I didn't " forget. " As an alcohol-impaired driver has lowered reaction times, especially in adverse conditions, most of those items should not be factored out. To factor them out, IMO, is giving a drinking driver a " free pass " on impaired ability to drive. Almost, as it were, enabling them. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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