Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 > >> > A these are Mona's definitions she is the one to > really comment, but my impression is that " deviant " > here means simply " breaking away from " rather than > " perverse " . I think the idea is that a *Sect* has > usually broken away from a conventional church but > retains most of the traditional beliefs and practices. Hi Pete, 'breaking away from' yes, that helps - clears that up- better ask Mona if that's what she meant. > > The sociologist Wallace suggested a nosology of three > different kinds of modern sect, which he called Word > Rejecting, World Accepting, and World Affirming. I > believe AA is a kind of hybrid of the last two. World > Accepting sects are fairly benign and this is the > " public image " of AA. However, World Affirming Sects > are exploitative groups like Scientology and some > sociologists refer to these as " cults " . Fortunately > AA is not like the World Rejecting Group (yet?) which > include the classic suicidal 'cults' like Waco, > town, Heavens Gate, etc. Will say ore after some > sleep. > > P. > Good, cause this is very interesting stuff. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 > >> > A these are Mona's definitions she is the one to > really comment, but my impression is that " deviant " > here means simply " breaking away from " rather than > " perverse " . I think the idea is that a *Sect* has > usually broken away from a conventional church but > retains most of the traditional beliefs and practices. Hi Pete, 'breaking away from' yes, that helps - clears that up- better ask Mona if that's what she meant. > > The sociologist Wallace suggested a nosology of three > different kinds of modern sect, which he called Word > Rejecting, World Accepting, and World Affirming. I > believe AA is a kind of hybrid of the last two. World > Accepting sects are fairly benign and this is the > " public image " of AA. However, World Affirming Sects > are exploitative groups like Scientology and some > sociologists refer to these as " cults " . Fortunately > AA is not like the World Rejecting Group (yet?) which > include the classic suicidal 'cults' like Waco, > town, Heavens Gate, etc. Will say ore after some > sleep. > > P. > Good, cause this is very interesting stuff. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 Getting sober is a life and death issue. That's why I responded to . He obviously wanted to leave AA, but also stated he wanted to have a beer. While some people would recommend that he try moderation, I tried to suggest to him an escape plan that would help him stay sober in the process. Isolation is one of the biggest issues a person (especially someone in aa for a long time) faces when they leave, and I believe that others who have made that same choice should or at least could be helpful at that first critical stage. Just because I loather aa, doesn't mean I take my abstinence lightly. I rarely have an urge to use and am content to be abstinent without having to endure aa. Personally, I won't be joining SMART,RR,SOS,LSR,or whatever. I think that abstinence is the ONLY choice for me, as well as for many people. I hope chooses to keep in touch with 12-step-free. I'd like to know how he's doing - even if he chooses to stay in aa. Jan -------------------------------- In a message dated 8/7/01 8:41:17 PM Central Daylight Time, MonaHolland1@... writes: << Not surprisingly, it is AA-related. A new member was waxing vitriolic about AA, and I posted agreement with him, except to the extent I didn't feel comfortable with the way he used the word " cult. " The list is pretty active, and it is cool to watch people from all over the world getting sober. A physicist from Russia; a fellow from Kenya; several from Ireland. Most of them dislike AA, but are desperate to get and stay sober. Sometimes I fel that some on this list forget that getting sober really is a life or death matter for many, and that this fact is not just 12 Step bullshit. --Mona-- >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 Getting sober is a life and death issue. That's why I responded to . He obviously wanted to leave AA, but also stated he wanted to have a beer. While some people would recommend that he try moderation, I tried to suggest to him an escape plan that would help him stay sober in the process. Isolation is one of the biggest issues a person (especially someone in aa for a long time) faces when they leave, and I believe that others who have made that same choice should or at least could be helpful at that first critical stage. Just because I loather aa, doesn't mean I take my abstinence lightly. I rarely have an urge to use and am content to be abstinent without having to endure aa. Personally, I won't be joining SMART,RR,SOS,LSR,or whatever. I think that abstinence is the ONLY choice for me, as well as for many people. I hope chooses to keep in touch with 12-step-free. I'd like to know how he's doing - even if he chooses to stay in aa. Jan -------------------------------- In a message dated 8/7/01 8:41:17 PM Central Daylight Time, MonaHolland1@... writes: << Not surprisingly, it is AA-related. A new member was waxing vitriolic about AA, and I posted agreement with him, except to the extent I didn't feel comfortable with the way he used the word " cult. " The list is pretty active, and it is cool to watch people from all over the world getting sober. A physicist from Russia; a fellow from Kenya; several from Ireland. Most of them dislike AA, but are desperate to get and stay sober. Sometimes I fel that some on this list forget that getting sober really is a life or death matter for many, and that this fact is not just 12 Step bullshit. --Mona-- >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 Getting sober is a life and death issue. That's why I responded to . He obviously wanted to leave AA, but also stated he wanted to have a beer. While some people would recommend that he try moderation, I tried to suggest to him an escape plan that would help him stay sober in the process. Isolation is one of the biggest issues a person (especially someone in aa for a long time) faces when they leave, and I believe that others who have made that same choice should or at least could be helpful at that first critical stage. Just because I loather aa, doesn't mean I take my abstinence lightly. I rarely have an urge to use and am content to be abstinent without having to endure aa. Personally, I won't be joining SMART,RR,SOS,LSR,or whatever. I think that abstinence is the ONLY choice for me, as well as for many people. I hope chooses to keep in touch with 12-step-free. I'd like to know how he's doing - even if he chooses to stay in aa. Jan -------------------------------- In a message dated 8/7/01 8:41:17 PM Central Daylight Time, MonaHolland1@... writes: << Not surprisingly, it is AA-related. A new member was waxing vitriolic about AA, and I posted agreement with him, except to the extent I didn't feel comfortable with the way he used the word " cult. " The list is pretty active, and it is cool to watch people from all over the world getting sober. A physicist from Russia; a fellow from Kenya; several from Ireland. Most of them dislike AA, but are desperate to get and stay sober. Sometimes I fel that some on this list forget that getting sober really is a life or death matter for many, and that this fact is not just 12 Step bullshit. --Mona-- >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 nz: Don't forget about the Lutheran Church. It was a spit off from the Catholic Church, and Luther was also anti-Semitic in that he felt something ought to be done about the " Jewish problem " . The Lutheran Church is widespread today - even though sometime in the 70's they had their own split. One Catholic university in my home town provided living and educational quarters for dissenters who were called collectively - seminex - seminary in exile. This group started the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America - ELCA, while the original remained The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And there were a couple more minor split offs at that time, but they're very small. ELCA is well established. Just thought you might be interested. Jan ----------------------------------- In a message dated 8/8/01 5:10:08 AM Central Daylight Time, ghhws1@... writes: << I once took a course at Penn State entitled " Sects and Cults " . That was some time ago, like 1983, but I remember hearing that the respectable mainstream protestant churches of today started off as sects and cults in an earlier century. Netty, my understanding of a sect is that it is a smaller group which splits off from the larger group and has beliefs which differ from those of the larger group. Such sects are often looked upon askance as being deviant or even disreputable at the outset. But over time, those sects which persist can mature into the sort of institutions we see in the respectable denominations of today. These nice Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians with their lovely churches on the corner were once considered pretty weird. Cheers, nz >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 nz: Don't forget about the Lutheran Church. It was a spit off from the Catholic Church, and Luther was also anti-Semitic in that he felt something ought to be done about the " Jewish problem " . The Lutheran Church is widespread today - even though sometime in the 70's they had their own split. One Catholic university in my home town provided living and educational quarters for dissenters who were called collectively - seminex - seminary in exile. This group started the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America - ELCA, while the original remained The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And there were a couple more minor split offs at that time, but they're very small. ELCA is well established. Just thought you might be interested. Jan ----------------------------------- In a message dated 8/8/01 5:10:08 AM Central Daylight Time, ghhws1@... writes: << I once took a course at Penn State entitled " Sects and Cults " . That was some time ago, like 1983, but I remember hearing that the respectable mainstream protestant churches of today started off as sects and cults in an earlier century. Netty, my understanding of a sect is that it is a smaller group which splits off from the larger group and has beliefs which differ from those of the larger group. Such sects are often looked upon askance as being deviant or even disreputable at the outset. But over time, those sects which persist can mature into the sort of institutions we see in the respectable denominations of today. These nice Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians with their lovely churches on the corner were once considered pretty weird. Cheers, nz >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 nz: Don't forget about the Lutheran Church. It was a spit off from the Catholic Church, and Luther was also anti-Semitic in that he felt something ought to be done about the " Jewish problem " . The Lutheran Church is widespread today - even though sometime in the 70's they had their own split. One Catholic university in my home town provided living and educational quarters for dissenters who were called collectively - seminex - seminary in exile. This group started the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America - ELCA, while the original remained The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And there were a couple more minor split offs at that time, but they're very small. ELCA is well established. Just thought you might be interested. Jan ----------------------------------- In a message dated 8/8/01 5:10:08 AM Central Daylight Time, ghhws1@... writes: << I once took a course at Penn State entitled " Sects and Cults " . That was some time ago, like 1983, but I remember hearing that the respectable mainstream protestant churches of today started off as sects and cults in an earlier century. Netty, my understanding of a sect is that it is a smaller group which splits off from the larger group and has beliefs which differ from those of the larger group. Such sects are often looked upon askance as being deviant or even disreputable at the outset. But over time, those sects which persist can mature into the sort of institutions we see in the respectable denominations of today. These nice Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians with their lovely churches on the corner were once considered pretty weird. Cheers, nz >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 I once took a course at Penn State entitled " Sects and Cults " . That was some time ago, like 1983, but I remember hearing that the respectable mainstream protestant churches of today started off as sects and cults in an earlier century. Netty, my understanding of a sect is that it is a smaller group which splits off from the larger group and has beliefs which differ from those of the larger group. Such sects are often looked upon askance as being deviant or even disreputable at the outset. But over time, those sects which persist can mature into the sort of institutions we see in the respectable denominations of today. These nice Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians with their lovely churches on the corner were once considered pretty weird. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 I once took a course at Penn State entitled " Sects and Cults " . That was some time ago, like 1983, but I remember hearing that the respectable mainstream protestant churches of today started off as sects and cults in an earlier century. Netty, my understanding of a sect is that it is a smaller group which splits off from the larger group and has beliefs which differ from those of the larger group. Such sects are often looked upon askance as being deviant or even disreputable at the outset. But over time, those sects which persist can mature into the sort of institutions we see in the respectable denominations of today. These nice Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians with their lovely churches on the corner were once considered pretty weird. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 I once took a course at Penn State entitled " Sects and Cults " . That was some time ago, like 1983, but I remember hearing that the respectable mainstream protestant churches of today started off as sects and cults in an earlier century. Netty, my understanding of a sect is that it is a smaller group which splits off from the larger group and has beliefs which differ from those of the larger group. Such sects are often looked upon askance as being deviant or even disreputable at the outset. But over time, those sects which persist can mature into the sort of institutions we see in the respectable denominations of today. These nice Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians with their lovely churches on the corner were once considered pretty weird. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 > I once took a course at Penn State entitled " Sects and Cults " . That was some time ago, > like 1983, but I remember hearing that the respectable mainstream protestant churches of > today started off as sects and cults in an earlier century. > > Netty, my understanding of a sect is that it is a smaller group which splits off from the > larger group and has beliefs which differ from those of the larger group. Such sects are > often looked upon askance as being deviant or even disreputable at the outset. Morning , I've always called this divisions. The word 'sects' seems to work. New approach to viewing it. Alot of these groups appose splits, yet many do this very thing. Cut their own throat, so to speak. Makes me wonder, is that whats going on here? netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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