proving that rosacea is all in the head

[Guest guest]

To the folks who contend that rosacea is simply all in the head: I

ask YOU to post valid, peer-reviewed research references. Prove to

me that rosacea is NOT a physical disorder that is vascular in

nature. I promise you I will read and consider all such evidence you

present.

If you can ask us to prove that rosacea is a physical disorder, it's

only fair that I can ask you to prove that it's not.

Waiting,

BB

[Guest guest]

" all in your head " That is simply a wrong way of putting it. Its very

real but the root of the cause is psychological. Unfortually BB

research is never done unless there is a pill or method that creates

a market.(but there is clear evidence that social anxiety and strong

emotions cause blushing and flushing of the skin) It just so happens

that they have possibly tried different hypothesis on rosacea but you

will not find a physical cause because I'm sure that it's mental.

Vascular cause would mean they could see this anomoly at the micro

level, which thay can't. Your vascular function is normal from what I

would believe.

Later, Jill

- In rosacea-support@y..., rkba1776@h... wrote:

> To the folks who contend that rosacea is simply all in the head: I

> ask YOU to post valid, peer-reviewed research references. Prove to

> me that rosacea is NOT a physical disorder that is vascular in

> nature. I promise you I will read and consider all such evidence

you

> present.

>

> If you can ask us to prove that rosacea is a physical disorder,

it's

> only fair that I can ask you to prove that it's not.

>

> Waiting,

> BB

[Guest guest]

Jill,

Okay, let's see if we can find some common ground here and then try

and focus on the points we disagree on.

You stated that there is clear evidence that social anxiety and strong

emotions cause blushing and flushing of the skin. I believe this to

be entirely true. It's discussed in Dr. Nase's book, and I think

(though I can't put my hands on any right now) there is plenty of

research to back this statement up. This point is not in debate, at

least not between you and I.

So there's our common ground.

On other issues, I still think you and I are unclear as to what the

other is contending, and until we are clear, we won't be able to

properly discuss the issues.

Help me understand here: do you or do you not concede that, for

whatever reason, physical or otherwise, rosacea sufferers tend to

exhibit vascular structural and functional abnormalities that can be

observed and noted by the trained observer?

To help me understand your position, please pick the statement that

most closely mirrors what you are trying to tell the group:

(A) ceans have a perfectly normal vascular system, in structure

and in function. No physically noteworthy difference in their vessels

exists when compared to non-sufferers. Their sole problem lies in

blushing/flushing with an entirely controllable source grounded in

social anxiety and emotions.

( ceans do indeed have an altered vascular system, in structure

and function, when compared to non-sufferers. This damage, though,

stems entirely from sustained and overly frequently flushing and

blushing related to the sufferers social anxiety and emotions.

© BB is totally off and doesn't understand Jill's position at all.

I'm interested in getting this clarified so we can understand each

other's position and possibly have some constructive debate.

My final point before I let you respond would be to say that in

general it is not the wisest move one can make to totally write off a

hypothesis simply because scientists have yet to come up with

convincing evidence. Medical technology is advancing at a great pace.

Think back to 100, 50, or even 25 years ago and look at what we

couldn't prove back then...some of it is common knowledge these days.

Till later,

BB

> " all in your head " That is simply a wrong way of putting it. Its

very

> real but the root of the cause is psychological. Unfortually BB

> research is never done unless there is a pill or method that creates

> a market.(but there is clear evidence that social anxiety and strong

> emotions cause blushing and flushing of the skin) It just so happens

> that they have possibly tried different hypothesis on rosacea but

you

> will not find a physical cause because I'm sure that it's mental.

> Vascular cause would mean they could see this anomoly at the micro

> level, which thay can't. Your vascular function is normal from what

I

> would believe.

> Later, Jill

>

[Guest guest]

Group,

Nase, Geoffrey's wife, has forwarded a response to our

current debate on whether or not rosacea is a physical or

mental-based condition. It was requested that I post it to the group

for him, as he is very busy now, and is unfamiliar with

posting procedures.

This is what was sent to me:

*********************************

Hello,

My husband is away right now making up for lost time at work.

However, he wanted to address one very common misconception that is

still floating around - the misconception that rosacea is related to

psychological disorders. cea is NOT related to psychological

disturbances. This disorder is not " in the patient's head " . This

psycho-babble only adds to the confusion and chaos that surrounds

rosacea. Long before rosacea sufferers ever know about their

underlying vascular disorder they are flushing to hot or warm rooms,

sun exposure, exercise, stress, physical exertion, hot or spicy

foods, topical skin care products, etc. Geoffrey stresses this point

- rosacea is a physical disorder. This physical difference is

responsible for the underlying vascular disorder. This is also

backed up by a substantial number of clinical studies.

Geoffrey asked me to post a portion of text from his book on this

subject.

Sincerely,

Nase, M.D.

Board Certified Neurologist

IX. PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTURBANCE --

TRIGGER THAT IS NOT IMPORTANT

Psychological disturbances are sometimes found in patients with

inflammatory skin disorders and chronic illnesses. These patients

may demonstrate symptoms such as extreme sadness, depression, stress,

anxiety, and frustration. The key question that must be addressed

is, " Does the sadness, depression, stress, anxiety, and frustration

cause the skin disorder..... or does the unrelenting skin disorder

cause the symptoms? "

PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTURBANCES

AND ROSACEA

When a physician examines a rosacea sufferer, he often notices

symptoms such as sadness, depression, anxiety, hopelessness, and

frustration. A general physician who performs brief, incomplete

examinations may conclude that the patient has an underlying

psychological disorder, and that the patient's mental state is

causing his or her rosacea. However, rosacea experts who perform

in-depth examinations and question their patients rigorously will

often come to much different conclusions; they usually find that the

patient's rosacea is causing the sadness, depression, anxiety,

hopelessness, and frustration. After thorough examination and

questioning, medical experts often find that: (1) The patient has

already seen countless physicians without much help, (2) The patient

cannot perform normal activities without moderate facial flushing and

aggravation of the disease, (3) The patient experiences daily burning

sensations that interfere with his or her lifestyle, and (4) The

patient has been given incorrect medical treatment in the past, or no

real hope for leading a normal life. Of course patients will be

saddened, depressed, anxious, hopeless and frustrated by this

disorder

and its prognosis!

Medical experts who have performed in-depth examinations on rosacea

patients indicate that underlying psychological disturbances do not

cause rosacea:

In a psychological study of 70 rosacea sufferers and 70 control

subjects, Dr. Marks found that rosacea sufferers did not differ from

control subjects. They were psychologically stable with no

discernible

psychiatric disorder or emotional trauma. (199)

After extensive evaluation of 128 rosacea patients, Dr. Sobye

concluded, " The majority of the patients were robust, well-balanced,

and unaffected by their surroundings. " (190)

In a recent rosacea review article, Dr. Katz indicated that rosacea

sufferers have completely normal psychological profiles. (250)

Drs. White and colleagues documented that psychological factors did

not play a role in the development of rosacea in their patients.

(338)

Medical experts point out that in most rosacea sufferers, it is much

more likely that depression and psychological effects are a result of

the rosacea, and not the cause of rosacea. (319)

Dr. Ellis and Stawiski emphasize that rosacea is not caused by

psychological disturbances and that, " As a rule, psychiatric

treatment

does not aid the physical changes of acne rosacea. " (192)

REFERENCES

190. Sobye, P. " Aetiology and pathogenesis of rosacea " . Acta Derm

Venereol 30: 137-157, 1950.

192. Ellis, C.N. and M.A. Stawiski. " The treatment of perioral

dermatitis, acne rosacea, and seborrheic dermatitis " . Med Clin North

Am 66: 819-830, 1982.

199. Marks, R. " Concepts in the pathogenesis of rosacea " . Br J

Dermatol 80: 170-177, 1968.

250. Katz, A.M. cea: epidemiology and pathogenesis. J Cutan

Med Surg 2 Suppl 4: S4-10, 1998.

319. Marks, R. and D.S. Wilkinson. " cea and perioral

dermatitis " . In: Textbook of Dermatology, edited by R. Marks and D.S.

Wilkinson. Blackwell Scientific Publication, 1986, p. 1433-1438.

338. White, J.M., A.M. , and J.G. Ingham. " A rorschach study

of the neurodermatoses " . J Psychosomatic Res 1: 841956.

[Guest guest]

--

Ok, I will challenge that theory and ask you to send the

board Valid scientific study of your reaserch(not snipits of various

unconfirmed sources)THE ACTUAL DATA. Has it been posted in a REAL

medical journal, if not it's not valid only unconfirmed testing. Of

course Dr. Nase is going to say this is a physical disorder, he is

selling a book on the fact, also he had major face sugery done and is

promoting that also. I'm sure that is a very big motivation. You are

missing my point also , It's not about " stress " or " anger "

ect. these are the emotions that are present but not the cause. I am

saying that it's psychological rooted not emotional. The trigger

thoughts and heightened awareness of your skin is causing your

problem. Included in that is sun flushing,flush from

drinking,stress,ect. I'm here to give people an idea of what helped

me and countless others. If you find it disturbing then I wish you

well on your plight to find relief " somehow,anyway! "

Jill

- In rosacea-support@y..., rkba1776@h... wrote:

> Group,

>

> Nase, Geoffrey's wife, has forwarded a response to our

> current debate on whether or not rosacea is a physical or

> mental-based condition. It was requested that I post it to the

group

> for him, as he is very busy now, and is unfamiliar with

> posting procedures.

>

> This is what was sent to me:

>

> *********************************

>

> Hello,

>

> My husband is away right now making up for lost time at work.

> However, he wanted to address one very common misconception that is

> still floating around - the misconception that rosacea is related

to

> psychological disorders. cea is NOT related to psychological

> disturbances. This disorder is not " in the patient's head " . This

> psycho-babble only adds to the confusion and chaos that surrounds

> rosacea. Long before rosacea sufferers ever know about their

> underlying vascular disorder they are flushing to hot or warm

rooms,

> sun exposure, exercise, stress, physical exertion, hot or spicy

> foods, topical skin care products, etc. Geoffrey stresses this

point

> - rosacea is a physical disorder. This physical difference is

> responsible for the underlying vascular disorder. This is also

> backed up by a substantial number of clinical studies.

>

> Geoffrey asked me to post a portion of text from his book on this

> subject.

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Nase, M.D.

> Board Certified Neurologist

>

>

>

>

> IX. PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTURBANCE --

> TRIGGER THAT IS NOT IMPORTANT

>

>

> Psychological disturbances are sometimes found in patients with

> inflammatory skin disorders and chronic illnesses. These patients

> may demonstrate symptoms such as extreme sadness, depression,

stress,

> anxiety, and frustration. The key question that must be addressed

> is, " Does the sadness, depression, stress, anxiety, and frustration

> cause the skin disorder..... or does the unrelenting skin disorder

> cause the symptoms? "

>

> PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTURBANCES

> AND ROSACEA

>

> When a physician examines a rosacea sufferer, he often notices

> symptoms such as sadness, depression, anxiety, hopelessness, and

> frustration. A general physician who performs brief, incomplete

> examinations may conclude that the patient has an underlying

> psychological disorder, and that the patient's mental state is

> causing his or her rosacea. However, rosacea experts who perform

> in-depth examinations and question their patients rigorously will

> often come to much different conclusions; they usually find that

the

> patient's rosacea is causing the sadness, depression, anxiety,

> hopelessness, and frustration. After thorough examination and

> questioning, medical experts often find that: (1) The patient has

> already seen countless physicians without much help, (2) The

patient

> cannot perform normal activities without moderate facial flushing

and

> aggravation of the disease, (3) The patient experiences daily

burning

> sensations that interfere with his or her lifestyle, and (4) The

> patient has been given incorrect medical treatment in the past, or

no

> real hope for leading a normal life. Of course patients will be

> saddened, depressed, anxious, hopeless and frustrated by this

> disorder

> and its prognosis!

>

> Medical experts who have performed in-depth examinations on rosacea

> patients indicate that underlying psychological disturbances do not

> cause rosacea:

>

> In a psychological study of 70 rosacea sufferers and 70 control

> subjects, Dr. Marks found that rosacea sufferers did not differ

from

> control subjects. They were psychologically stable with no

> discernible

> psychiatric disorder or emotional trauma. (199)

>

> After extensive evaluation of 128 rosacea patients, Dr. Sobye

> concluded, " The majority of the patients were robust, well-

balanced,

> and unaffected by their surroundings. " (190)

>

> In a recent rosacea review article, Dr. Katz indicated that rosacea

> sufferers have completely normal psychological profiles. (250)

>

> Drs. White and colleagues documented that psychological factors did

> not play a role in the development of rosacea in their patients.

> (338)

>

> Medical experts point out that in most rosacea sufferers, it is

much

> more likely that depression and psychological effects are a result

of

> the rosacea, and not the cause of rosacea. (319)

>

> Dr. Ellis and Stawiski emphasize that rosacea is not caused by

> psychological disturbances and that, " As a rule, psychiatric

> treatment

> does not aid the physical changes of acne rosacea. " (192)

>

>

>

>

>

> REFERENCES

>

>

>

> 190. Sobye, P. " Aetiology and pathogenesis of rosacea " . Acta

Derm

> Venereol 30: 137-157, 1950.

>

> 192. Ellis, C.N. and M.A. Stawiski. " The treatment of perioral

> dermatitis, acne rosacea, and seborrheic dermatitis " . Med Clin

North

> Am 66: 819-830, 1982.

>

> 199. Marks, R. " Concepts in the pathogenesis of rosacea " . Br J

> Dermatol 80: 170-177, 1968.

>

> 250. Katz, A.M. cea: epidemiology and pathogenesis. J Cutan

> Med Surg 2 Suppl 4: S4-10, 1998.

>

> 319. Marks, R. and D.S. Wilkinson. " cea and perioral

> dermatitis " . In: Textbook of Dermatology, edited by R. Marks and

D.S.

> Wilkinson. Blackwell Scientific Publication, 1986, p. 1433-1438.

>

> 338. White, J.M., A.M. , and J.G. Ingham. " A rorschach study

> of the neurodermatoses " . J Psychosomatic Res 1: 841956.

[Guest guest]

First off, Nase is not a rosacea sufferer (that I know of).

Her husband, Geoffrey, is.

Second, Dr. Nase's book is full of references to valid, peer-reviewed

studies published in major medical journals. Some were included at

the end of & Geoffrey's post. They are confirmable and were

published in " real " medical journals.

Third, yes, it's true Geoffrey Nase is selling a book. But he put

almost two years of his family and professional life on hold so that

he could self-publish the book in order to keep the price affordable

(~$30) for all of us. He could have gone the easy route and let a

professional publishing firm to the work, gotten the book out ten

times as fast, and had us all pay upwards of $100 to $200. He did not

write the book for fun or profit. The evidence doesn't support this

assumption.

Question of the day: have you taken the time to read Dr. Nase's book?

If not, it would be wise to do so before attacking him and his

research.

Fourth, yes, Geoffrey Nase did have the IPL procedure done, TO HELP

ELIMINATE HIS CONDITION. He does not practice it himself, nor is he

associated with anyone who does, or any company that makes and/or

markets the IPL devices. The only reason he is promoting IPL is

because it not only effectively gave him his life back, but it has

done so for countless other rosaceans.

Fifth, as far as " trigger thoughts and heightened awareness of your

skin " causing this problem, I have to ask: what about myself and many

other board members who assert that our conditions began long before

we even knew what was going on? What about those who never would have

noticed ANYTHING wrong with their faces had it not been for someone

else's comment? How can we cause our own condition with obsessive

attention to it, when we aren't aware there's anything wrong with us

to obsess over in the first place? Granted, I could be missing your

point here, but...

One last thing: Jill, you continue to challenge folks here to present

studies supporting our contention that rosacea is indeed a disorder

with physical roots. You have a right to do this. But as I said

before, it works both ways, and we, too, have a right to challenge you

to present studies supporting your assertions. Thus far, all we've

gotten is anecdotal accounts. All of our arguments seem to be

unconvincing to you, so why should your arguments be convincing to us?

This may very well be my last post on this topic as we seem to be

going in circles.

BB

> --

> Ok, I will challenge that theory and ask you to send the

> board Valid scientific study of your reaserch(not snipits of various

> unconfirmed sources)THE ACTUAL DATA. Has it been posted in a REAL

> medical journal, if not it's not valid only unconfirmed testing. Of

> course Dr. Nase is going to say this is a physical disorder, he is

> selling a book on the fact, also he had major face sugery done and

is

> promoting that also. I'm sure that is a very big motivation. You are

> missing my point also , It's not about " stress " or " anger "

> ect. these are the emotions that are present but not the cause. I am

> saying that it's psychological rooted not emotional. The trigger

> thoughts and heightened awareness of your skin is causing your

> problem. Included in that is sun flushing,flush from

> drinking,stress,ect. I'm here to give people an idea of what helped

> me and countless others. If you find it disturbing then I wish you

> well on your plight to find relief " somehow,anyway! "

> Jill

>

>

[Guest guest]

Allright, this is getting ridiculous! It does not take a genius, nor

someone " in the medical field, " as jillthrills claims to be, to

recognize that this thread of conversation has nothing to do with a

real exchange of ideas, and everything to do with attention-seeking

behavior. I don't think we should dignify her misguided, insensitive

posts with any further response. After all, someone who states " you

will not find a physical cause because I'm sure that it's mental, " is

not open to debate. (One might even say she has a faulty grasp of

logical reasoning. Science cannot prove something because one person

is certain it isn't true??) And her response to Nase's

statement shows that she has little understanding of medical

research, though she claims to value it; she challenges to

show her the " actual data " to back up Dr. Nase's " snipits " [sic] of

evidence that rosacea is not associated with psychological disorder,

even after Dr. Nase cites six different articles from the medical

literature and even provides the references. (Yes, Jill, those

are " real " medical journals. Ever heard of Medline? You might want to

check it out sometime, seeing as you are in the medical field and

all.)

Those of us who are not constrained by black-and-white thinking

realize that rosacea is still a poorly understood illness, and that

psychological factors indeed may exacerbate symptoms for some

individuals. We could engage in some pretty meaningful discussion

about the etiology of rosacea for months. My point is that

jillthrills apparently has no intention of engaging in any real

discussion, so why bother waving medical research and our own

testimonials in her face? There is no doubt in my mind that she has

other motives besides the desire to help anyone in this group. (And I

won't even get into what kind of psychological issues might be

involved there...)

So can we please get on with the real purpose of this group?

Just my 2 cents,

> > Group,

> >

> > Nase, Geoffrey's wife, has forwarded a response to our

> > current debate on whether or not rosacea is a physical or

> > mental-based condition. It was requested that I post it to the

> group

> > for him, as he is very busy now, and is unfamiliar with

> > posting procedures.

> >

> > This is what was sent to me:

> >

> > *********************************

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > My husband is away right now making up for lost time at work.

> > However, he wanted to address one very common misconception that

is

> > still floating around - the misconception that rosacea is related

> to

> > psychological disorders. cea is NOT related to psychological

> > disturbances. This disorder is not " in the patient's head " .

This

> > psycho-babble only adds to the confusion and chaos that surrounds

> > rosacea. Long before rosacea sufferers ever know about their

> > underlying vascular disorder they are flushing to hot or warm

> rooms,

> > sun exposure, exercise, stress, physical exertion, hot or spicy

> > foods, topical skin care products, etc. Geoffrey stresses this

> point

> > - rosacea is a physical disorder. This physical difference is

> > responsible for the underlying vascular disorder. This is also

> > backed up by a substantial number of clinical studies.

> >

> > Geoffrey asked me to post a portion of text from his book on this

> > subject.

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > Nase, M.D.

> > Board Certified Neurologist

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > IX. PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTURBANCE --

> > TRIGGER THAT IS NOT IMPORTANT

> >

> >

> > Psychological disturbances are sometimes found in patients with

> > inflammatory skin disorders and chronic illnesses. These patients

> > may demonstrate symptoms such as extreme sadness, depression,

> stress,

> > anxiety, and frustration. The key question that must be addressed

> > is, " Does the sadness, depression, stress, anxiety, and

frustration

> > cause the skin disorder..... or does the unrelenting skin

disorder

> > cause the symptoms? "

> >

> > PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTURBANCES

> > AND ROSACEA

> >

> > When a physician examines a rosacea sufferer, he often notices

> > symptoms such as sadness, depression, anxiety, hopelessness, and

> > frustration. A general physician who performs brief, incomplete

> > examinations may conclude that the patient has an underlying

> > psychological disorder, and that the patient's mental state is

> > causing his or her rosacea. However, rosacea experts who perform

> > in-depth examinations and question their patients rigorously will

> > often come to much different conclusions; they usually find that

> the

> > patient's rosacea is causing the sadness, depression, anxiety,

> > hopelessness, and frustration. After thorough examination and

> > questioning, medical experts often find that: (1) The patient has

> > already seen countless physicians without much help, (2) The

> patient

> > cannot perform normal activities without moderate facial flushing

> and

> > aggravation of the disease, (3) The patient experiences daily

> burning

> > sensations that interfere with his or her lifestyle, and (4) The

> > patient has been given incorrect medical treatment in the past,

or

> no

> > real hope for leading a normal life. Of course patients will be

> > saddened, depressed, anxious, hopeless and frustrated by this

> > disorder

> > and its prognosis!

> >

> > Medical experts who have performed in-depth examinations on

rosacea

> > patients indicate that underlying psychological disturbances do

not

> > cause rosacea:

> >

> > In a psychological study of 70 rosacea sufferers and 70 control

> > subjects, Dr. Marks found that rosacea sufferers did not differ

> from

> > control subjects. They were psychologically stable with no

> > discernible

> > psychiatric disorder or emotional trauma. (199)

> >

> > After extensive evaluation of 128 rosacea patients, Dr. Sobye

> > concluded, " The majority of the patients were robust, well-

> balanced,

> > and unaffected by their surroundings. " (190)

> >

> > In a recent rosacea review article, Dr. Katz indicated that

rosacea

> > sufferers have completely normal psychological profiles. (250)

> >

> > Drs. White and colleagues documented that psychological factors

did

> > not play a role in the development of rosacea in their patients.

> > (338)

> >

> > Medical experts point out that in most rosacea sufferers, it is

> much

> > more likely that depression and psychological effects are a

result

> of

> > the rosacea, and not the cause of rosacea. (319)

> >

> > Dr. Ellis and Stawiski emphasize that rosacea is not caused by

> > psychological disturbances and that, " As a rule, psychiatric

> > treatment

> > does not aid the physical changes of acne rosacea. " (192)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > REFERENCES

> >

> >

> >

> > 190. Sobye, P. " Aetiology and pathogenesis of rosacea " .

Acta

> Derm

> > Venereol 30: 137-157, 1950.

> >

> > 192. Ellis, C.N. and M.A. Stawiski. " The treatment of

perioral

> > dermatitis, acne rosacea, and seborrheic dermatitis " . Med Clin

> North

> > Am 66: 819-830, 1982.

> >

> > 199. Marks, R. " Concepts in the pathogenesis of rosacea " .

Br J

> > Dermatol 80: 170-177, 1968.

> >

> > 250. Katz, A.M. cea: epidemiology and pathogenesis. J

Cutan

> > Med Surg 2 Suppl 4: S4-10, 1998.

> >

> > 319. Marks, R. and D.S. Wilkinson. " cea and perioral

> > dermatitis " . In: Textbook of Dermatology, edited by R. Marks and

> D.S.

> > Wilkinson. Blackwell Scientific Publication, 1986, p. 1433-1438.

> >

> > 338. White, J.M., A.M. , and J.G. Ingham. " A

rorschach study

> > of the neurodermatoses " . J Psychosomatic Res 1: 841956.

[Guest guest]

Just noticed my post finally showed up after a bit of a delay. In the

meantime, Jill kindly agreed to end this " debate. " So now my post

looks a bit outdated. Sorry 'bout that. Glad to move on!

-