How well do deaf children really read?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/21/2006 7:18:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

sheribyrne@... writes:

So, my question is, are there any more meaningful studies that have

come out since then updating this statstic?

It's not that I doubt there are discrepencies but I really wonder

about folks who are shouting " fire, fire " based on this info if it

really is that out of date.

Just wondering, not intending to start a war . . .

Sheri,

Oh I doubt this will start a war here on this list. We don't do wars here.

It is one of the statistics that causes us to moan in disbelief, not take the

gloves off for a bare-knuckles fight.

I don't know of any newer studies and honestly, I haven't gone looking. My

approach to that statistic has been that it is an unacceptably low expectation

in regards to my son. We simply refuse to take it seriously whenever it has

been presented, and our school has not trotted it out in many years. (Ian

just finished his sophomore year in high school.)

I'm also interested as to whether anyone knows of a more recent study.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/21/2006 7:18:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

sheribyrne@... writes:

So, my question is, are there any more meaningful studies that have

come out since then updating this statstic?

It's not that I doubt there are discrepencies but I really wonder

about folks who are shouting " fire, fire " based on this info if it

really is that out of date.

Just wondering, not intending to start a war . . .

Sheri,

Oh I doubt this will start a war here on this list. We don't do wars here.

It is one of the statistics that causes us to moan in disbelief, not take the

gloves off for a bare-knuckles fight.

I don't know of any newer studies and honestly, I haven't gone looking. My

approach to that statistic has been that it is an unacceptably low expectation

in regards to my son. We simply refuse to take it seriously whenever it has

been presented, and our school has not trotted it out in many years. (Ian

just finished his sophomore year in high school.)

I'm also interested as to whether anyone knows of a more recent study.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/21/2006 7:18:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

sheribyrne@... writes:

So, my question is, are there any more meaningful studies that have

come out since then updating this statstic?

It's not that I doubt there are discrepencies but I really wonder

about folks who are shouting " fire, fire " based on this info if it

really is that out of date.

Just wondering, not intending to start a war . . .

Sheri,

Oh I doubt this will start a war here on this list. We don't do wars here.

It is one of the statistics that causes us to moan in disbelief, not take the

gloves off for a bare-knuckles fight.

I don't know of any newer studies and honestly, I haven't gone looking. My

approach to that statistic has been that it is an unacceptably low expectation

in regards to my son. We simply refuse to take it seriously whenever it has

been presented, and our school has not trotted it out in many years. (Ian

just finished his sophomore year in high school.)

I'm also interested as to whether anyone knows of a more recent study.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

Found this posted on a website from the GRI - Gallaudet Research Institute and

thought it was helpful in explaining. The copyright date was 1999-2003. See

below:

What is the reading level of deaf and hard of hearing people?

We have examined large numbers of deaf and hard of hearing students who are

quite representative of those throughout the United States. When the Gallaudet

Research Institute conducts large educational test standardization studies to

obtain norms (percentile scores) for deaf and hard of hearing students, the data

collected are used to describe students' achievement. In the last norming of a

widely used achievement test, the Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition

(Harcourt Educational Measurement, 1996), deaf and hard of hearing students aged

8 through 18 were given the test, including the Reading Comprehension subtest.

The measure of reading achievement we are using is the Reading Comprehension

subtest, a multiple-choice test.

It is important to note that the reading achievement is of deaf and hard of

hearing students who are in school. We are not talking about adults, and we are

not talking about high school graduates. (I want to clarify this point, because

many people ask about adults and about high school graduates, for which we have

no data.)

For the 17-year-olds and the 18-year-olds in the deaf and hard of hearing

student norming sample, the median Reading Comprehension subtest score

corresponds to about a 4.0 grade level for hearing students. That means that

half of the deaf and hard of hearing students at that age scored above the

typical hearing student at the beginning of fourth grade, and half scored below.

The " median " is the 50th percentile, and is one of the ways to express an

average, or typical, score. (A " mean " score, or arithmetic average, is not the

same as the median.)

The technical report of the norming study (Interpreting the Scores) describes

the students and details the methods used. It describes also the psychometric

properties (reliability and validity) of the test when used with deaf and hard

of hearing students. The norms booklet presents the test scores and is the

source of the 4.0 grade equivalent score for 17- and 18-year-old deaf students

in the norming sample. The norms booklet gives test score information for deaf

and hard of hearing students aged 8 through 18 on the subtests Word Study

Skills, Word Reading, Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics:

Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, Language, Environment, Study

Skills, Science, Social Science, and Listening. Age-based percentile norms are

given for Word Reading/Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics:

Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, and Language. These are the

citations for these documents:

Holt, Judith A., Traxler, Carol B., and , E. 1997. Interpreting

the Scores: A User's Guide to the 9th Edition Stanford Achievement Test for

Educators of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. Gallaudet Research Institute

Technical Report 97-1. Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Gallaudet Research Institute. 1996. Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition,

Form S, Norms Booklet for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. (Including

Conversions of Raw Score to Scaled Score & Grade Equivalent and Age-based

Percentile Ranks for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students.) Washington, DC:

Gallaudet University.

The web site Frequently Asked Questions About the Stanford Achievement Test

and Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students includes information on ordering these

materials from the Gallaudet Research Institute.

The web site Assessment and Deaf Test Takers includes additional information

related to measuring reading and writing skills.

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

Found this posted on a website from the GRI - Gallaudet Research Institute and

thought it was helpful in explaining. The copyright date was 1999-2003. See

below:

What is the reading level of deaf and hard of hearing people?

We have examined large numbers of deaf and hard of hearing students who are

quite representative of those throughout the United States. When the Gallaudet

Research Institute conducts large educational test standardization studies to

obtain norms (percentile scores) for deaf and hard of hearing students, the data

collected are used to describe students' achievement. In the last norming of a

widely used achievement test, the Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition

(Harcourt Educational Measurement, 1996), deaf and hard of hearing students aged

8 through 18 were given the test, including the Reading Comprehension subtest.

The measure of reading achievement we are using is the Reading Comprehension

subtest, a multiple-choice test.

It is important to note that the reading achievement is of deaf and hard of

hearing students who are in school. We are not talking about adults, and we are

not talking about high school graduates. (I want to clarify this point, because

many people ask about adults and about high school graduates, for which we have

no data.)

For the 17-year-olds and the 18-year-olds in the deaf and hard of hearing

student norming sample, the median Reading Comprehension subtest score

corresponds to about a 4.0 grade level for hearing students. That means that

half of the deaf and hard of hearing students at that age scored above the

typical hearing student at the beginning of fourth grade, and half scored below.

The " median " is the 50th percentile, and is one of the ways to express an

average, or typical, score. (A " mean " score, or arithmetic average, is not the

same as the median.)

The technical report of the norming study (Interpreting the Scores) describes

the students and details the methods used. It describes also the psychometric

properties (reliability and validity) of the test when used with deaf and hard

of hearing students. The norms booklet presents the test scores and is the

source of the 4.0 grade equivalent score for 17- and 18-year-old deaf students

in the norming sample. The norms booklet gives test score information for deaf

and hard of hearing students aged 8 through 18 on the subtests Word Study

Skills, Word Reading, Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics:

Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, Language, Environment, Study

Skills, Science, Social Science, and Listening. Age-based percentile norms are

given for Word Reading/Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics:

Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, and Language. These are the

citations for these documents:

Holt, Judith A., Traxler, Carol B., and , E. 1997. Interpreting

the Scores: A User's Guide to the 9th Edition Stanford Achievement Test for

Educators of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. Gallaudet Research Institute

Technical Report 97-1. Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Gallaudet Research Institute. 1996. Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition,

Form S, Norms Booklet for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. (Including

Conversions of Raw Score to Scaled Score & Grade Equivalent and Age-based

Percentile Ranks for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students.) Washington, DC:

Gallaudet University.

The web site Frequently Asked Questions About the Stanford Achievement Test

and Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students includes information on ordering these

materials from the Gallaudet Research Institute.

The web site Assessment and Deaf Test Takers includes additional information

related to measuring reading and writing skills.

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

Found this posted on a website from the GRI - Gallaudet Research Institute and

thought it was helpful in explaining. The copyright date was 1999-2003. See

below:

What is the reading level of deaf and hard of hearing people?

We have examined large numbers of deaf and hard of hearing students who are

quite representative of those throughout the United States. When the Gallaudet

Research Institute conducts large educational test standardization studies to

obtain norms (percentile scores) for deaf and hard of hearing students, the data

collected are used to describe students' achievement. In the last norming of a

widely used achievement test, the Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition

(Harcourt Educational Measurement, 1996), deaf and hard of hearing students aged

8 through 18 were given the test, including the Reading Comprehension subtest.

The measure of reading achievement we are using is the Reading Comprehension

subtest, a multiple-choice test.

It is important to note that the reading achievement is of deaf and hard of

hearing students who are in school. We are not talking about adults, and we are

not talking about high school graduates. (I want to clarify this point, because

many people ask about adults and about high school graduates, for which we have

no data.)

For the 17-year-olds and the 18-year-olds in the deaf and hard of hearing

student norming sample, the median Reading Comprehension subtest score

corresponds to about a 4.0 grade level for hearing students. That means that

half of the deaf and hard of hearing students at that age scored above the

typical hearing student at the beginning of fourth grade, and half scored below.

The " median " is the 50th percentile, and is one of the ways to express an

average, or typical, score. (A " mean " score, or arithmetic average, is not the

same as the median.)

The technical report of the norming study (Interpreting the Scores) describes

the students and details the methods used. It describes also the psychometric

properties (reliability and validity) of the test when used with deaf and hard

of hearing students. The norms booklet presents the test scores and is the

source of the 4.0 grade equivalent score for 17- and 18-year-old deaf students

in the norming sample. The norms booklet gives test score information for deaf

and hard of hearing students aged 8 through 18 on the subtests Word Study

Skills, Word Reading, Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics:

Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, Language, Environment, Study

Skills, Science, Social Science, and Listening. Age-based percentile norms are

given for Word Reading/Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics:

Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, and Language. These are the

citations for these documents:

Holt, Judith A., Traxler, Carol B., and , E. 1997. Interpreting

the Scores: A User's Guide to the 9th Edition Stanford Achievement Test for

Educators of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. Gallaudet Research Institute

Technical Report 97-1. Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Gallaudet Research Institute. 1996. Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition,

Form S, Norms Booklet for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. (Including

Conversions of Raw Score to Scaled Score & Grade Equivalent and Age-based

Percentile Ranks for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students.) Washington, DC:

Gallaudet University.

The web site Frequently Asked Questions About the Stanford Achievement Test

and Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students includes information on ordering these

materials from the Gallaudet Research Institute.

The web site Assessment and Deaf Test Takers includes additional information

related to measuring reading and writing skills.

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

> In the meantime, what I take away from the study is that those results are

not acceptable for my child and I will not let anyone else believe they are

acceptable either.

>

> Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and , 3 (almost 4) hearing

>

AMEN! This is why I DO quote this. Because this is the " status quo " . This is

what happens if you as the parent don't do anything to advocate for your child.

And if you don't take the ball and run with it when you get the diagnosis. If

you wait to let the school teach them language, and accept what the typical

public school has to offer, this is what the expectations are. This is what

the average school system has as its target.

[Guest guest]

\Sheri

There are some studies being done, I understand now, and Mark

Marschark? is conducting the studies. I think he is working with

some Northeast Deaf schools on several topics, this being one of

them.

WPSD 2005 graduates had an average RGL of 7.2. I don't know what it

is for 2006. I also don't know how this was averaged. Several of

these studies have gone on to Gallaudet or RIT.

I am trying to get some powerpoints developed by Cathy Rhoten, who

is our principal at WPSD, that show that what's out there does not

necessarily HAVE TO BE the norm. She is also pointing out that

those stats are so old and why Gallaudet is still publishing them.

I will see if I can get you that powerpoint. I have a hard copy

somewhere.

-- In Listen-Up , " sbyrne1281 "

wrote:

>

> I was reading the Cued Speech press release that someone posted and

> saw the infamous sentence

>

> " the average 18-year-old deaf high school graduate reads on a

third-

> or fourth-grade level. "

>

> My understanding is that this came from a study in 1991 (

Bowe,

> Approaching Equality " ), long before newborn hearing screening,

early

> intervention, bilateral implantation, or any of the other recent

> awesome advances that our helping our kids today.

>

> So, my question is, are there any more meaningful studies that have

> come out since then updating this statstic?

>

> It's not that I doubt there are discrepencies but I really wonder

> about folks who are shouting " fire, fire " based on this info if it

> really is that out of date.

>

> Just wondering, not intending to start a war . . .

>

> Sheri

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/2006 1:27:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

JillcWood@... writes:

Last night, our TOD quoted to me the statistic that 80% of learning happens

as incidental listening.

I don't have the ability to pick up things auditorily (left ear 0%, right

ear 6% (and that's with guessing words!) so I get almost all of my information

visually. This means that when I sit on the sidelines watching my son's

baseball games, I understand zero percent of the conversation that goes on

around

me. There's so much that's conveyed through voice inflection as well as

information about social norms that I miss out on. If I attend a school party,

I miss all of the good gossip-- so a neighbor usually fills me in. Most of my

information obtained while growing up was through books or one-on-one

conversations with friends or things that my parents taught me directly. I

usually

try to explain a lot of stuff to my kids to " fill in the blanks " for what

they might miss through auditory means.

Putz

Illinois Families for Hands & Voices

_www.handsandvoices.org_ (http://www.handsandvoices.org/)

_www.ilhandsandvoices.org_ (http://www.ilhandsandvoices.org/)

Email: support@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/2006 1:27:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

JillcWood@... writes:

Last night, our TOD quoted to me the statistic that 80% of learning happens

as incidental listening.

I don't have the ability to pick up things auditorily (left ear 0%, right

ear 6% (and that's with guessing words!) so I get almost all of my information

visually. This means that when I sit on the sidelines watching my son's

baseball games, I understand zero percent of the conversation that goes on

around

me. There's so much that's conveyed through voice inflection as well as

information about social norms that I miss out on. If I attend a school party,

I miss all of the good gossip-- so a neighbor usually fills me in. Most of my

information obtained while growing up was through books or one-on-one

conversations with friends or things that my parents taught me directly. I

usually

try to explain a lot of stuff to my kids to " fill in the blanks " for what

they might miss through auditory means.

Putz

Illinois Families for Hands & Voices

_www.handsandvoices.org_ (http://www.handsandvoices.org/)

_www.ilhandsandvoices.org_ (http://www.ilhandsandvoices.org/)

Email: support@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/2006 1:27:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

JillcWood@... writes:

Last night, our TOD quoted to me the statistic that 80% of learning happens

as incidental listening.

I don't have the ability to pick up things auditorily (left ear 0%, right

ear 6% (and that's with guessing words!) so I get almost all of my information

visually. This means that when I sit on the sidelines watching my son's

baseball games, I understand zero percent of the conversation that goes on

around

me. There's so much that's conveyed through voice inflection as well as

information about social norms that I miss out on. If I attend a school party,

I miss all of the good gossip-- so a neighbor usually fills me in. Most of my

information obtained while growing up was through books or one-on-one

conversations with friends or things that my parents taught me directly. I

usually

try to explain a lot of stuff to my kids to " fill in the blanks " for what

they might miss through auditory means.

Putz

Illinois Families for Hands & Voices

_www.handsandvoices.org_ (http://www.handsandvoices.org/)

_www.ilhandsandvoices.org_ (http://www.ilhandsandvoices.org/)

Email: support@...

[Guest guest]

I've heard that statistic as well - and it makes sense. I find

especially with Sam, he gets really upset if he doesn't get what's going

on around him and then does the 20 questions routine (which actually I'm

glad about). He doesn't have " speech " services per se but does spend

time weekly with the SLP at his school. They do a lot of iterative

things - they read over the Far Side or Calvin and Hobbs and then talk

about why it's funny - it's helped him a bunch!

Barbara

Parentsofdeafhoh@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 7/22/2006 1:27:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> JillcWood@... writes:

>

>

>

> Last night, our TOD quoted to me the statistic that 80% of learning happens

> as incidental listening.

>

>

>

>

> I don't have the ability to pick up things auditorily (left ear 0%, right

> ear 6% (and that's with guessing words!) so I get almost all of my

information

> visually. This means that when I sit on the sidelines watching my son's

> baseball games, I understand zero percent of the conversation that goes on

around

> me. There's so much that's conveyed through voice inflection as well as

> information about social norms that I miss out on. If I attend a school

party,

> I miss all of the good gossip-- so a neighbor usually fills me in. Most of my

> information obtained while growing up was through books or one-on-one

> conversations with friends or things that my parents taught me directly. I

usually

> try to explain a lot of stuff to my kids to " fill in the blanks " for what

> they might miss through auditory means.

>

> Putz

> Illinois Families for Hands & Voices

> _www.handsandvoices.org_ (http://www.handsandvoices.org/)

> _www.ilhandsandvoices.org_ (http://www.ilhandsandvoices.org/)

> Email: support@...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've heard that statistic as well - and it makes sense. I find

especially with Sam, he gets really upset if he doesn't get what's going

on around him and then does the 20 questions routine (which actually I'm

glad about). He doesn't have " speech " services per se but does spend

time weekly with the SLP at his school. They do a lot of iterative

things - they read over the Far Side or Calvin and Hobbs and then talk

about why it's funny - it's helped him a bunch!

Barbara

Parentsofdeafhoh@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 7/22/2006 1:27:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> JillcWood@... writes:

>

>

>

> Last night, our TOD quoted to me the statistic that 80% of learning happens

> as incidental listening.

>

>

>

>

> I don't have the ability to pick up things auditorily (left ear 0%, right

> ear 6% (and that's with guessing words!) so I get almost all of my

information

> visually. This means that when I sit on the sidelines watching my son's

> baseball games, I understand zero percent of the conversation that goes on

around

> me. There's so much that's conveyed through voice inflection as well as

> information about social norms that I miss out on. If I attend a school

party,

> I miss all of the good gossip-- so a neighbor usually fills me in. Most of my

> information obtained while growing up was through books or one-on-one

> conversations with friends or things that my parents taught me directly. I

usually

> try to explain a lot of stuff to my kids to " fill in the blanks " for what

> they might miss through auditory means.

>

> Putz

> Illinois Families for Hands & Voices

> _www.handsandvoices.org_ (http://www.handsandvoices.org/)

> _www.ilhandsandvoices.org_ (http://www.ilhandsandvoices.org/)

> Email: support@...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've heard that statistic as well - and it makes sense. I find

especially with Sam, he gets really upset if he doesn't get what's going

on around him and then does the 20 questions routine (which actually I'm

glad about). He doesn't have " speech " services per se but does spend

time weekly with the SLP at his school. They do a lot of iterative

things - they read over the Far Side or Calvin and Hobbs and then talk

about why it's funny - it's helped him a bunch!

Barbara

Parentsofdeafhoh@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 7/22/2006 1:27:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> JillcWood@... writes:

>

>

>

> Last night, our TOD quoted to me the statistic that 80% of learning happens

> as incidental listening.

>

>

>

>

> I don't have the ability to pick up things auditorily (left ear 0%, right

> ear 6% (and that's with guessing words!) so I get almost all of my

information

> visually. This means that when I sit on the sidelines watching my son's

> baseball games, I understand zero percent of the conversation that goes on

around

> me. There's so much that's conveyed through voice inflection as well as

> information about social norms that I miss out on. If I attend a school

party,

> I miss all of the good gossip-- so a neighbor usually fills me in. Most of my

> information obtained while growing up was through books or one-on-one

> conversations with friends or things that my parents taught me directly. I

usually

> try to explain a lot of stuff to my kids to " fill in the blanks " for what

> they might miss through auditory means.

>

> Putz

> Illinois Families for Hands & Voices

> _www.handsandvoices.org_ (http://www.handsandvoices.org/)

> _www.ilhandsandvoices.org_ (http://www.ilhandsandvoices.org/)

> Email: support@...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I remember hearing somewhere that when kids got to the place where they began to

understand abstraction, that they would think the " Family Circle " was funny,

before that they don't get it. I really saw that with Maggie, last summer she

finally started to " get " the humor. I think that was a bit delayed from other

kids. She loved to read old books of Family Circle cartoons but didn't think

they were funny, just informative. That's so interesting about Calvin and

Hobbes/Far Side. I could have used that with the Far Side. I first saw the Far

Side in Chicago in the 80's and would only " get " 2 or 3 of them per week. The

rest I would clip out and take to work and we'd try to figure them out. I got

to be such a Far Side fanatic that only about 3 times per year would there be

one I didn't get. Kind of scary cuz it is such weird humor.

Carol Flexer says that 90% of what kids learn is incidental or overheard. She

illustrates it in her book on " Facilitating Hearing and LIstening in young

children " with a cartoon of a day care lady and 3 babies sitting on the floor.

One baby (the one with hearing loss) is in a bubble. So whatever the day care

lady says to the other kids, the two hearing babies hear. But only when the

daycare lady is in the bubble does the bubble baby hear what she said. So the

hearing impaired baby just hears what is said directly to him. And I don't

remember if this was from her or not, but it was about a child with a hearing

loss that was seen as kind of a bad or frustrating kid. He didn't follow the

family rules about asking first if he could get food from the fridge. He had no

idea that was the rule in his family. He saw other kids go and get food from

the fridge so he did too. He didn't hear anyone asking to do so first.

We really saw this in Maggie, not just in things she didn't know or understand,

there were plenty of those, but in behavior. When her teachers used the

soundfield, she was able to focus on whatever she was supposed to be doing,

because she could hear the teacher telling other kids it was 10 minutes until

lunch or whatever. She could effortlessly monitor her environment by hearing

like most of us do. When the 3rd grade teacher didn't use the soundfield, she

was having to look around her to see what was going on. And that made her not

focus on what she was supposed to be doing. That is one of the things that

contributes to fatigue, having to be hypervigilant just to know what is going

on.

I find

>especially with Sam, he gets really upset if he doesn't get what's going

>on around him and then does the 20 questions routine (which actually I'm

>glad about).

When Maggie does this, her friends chalk it up to a blonde moment!

[Guest guest]

I remember hearing somewhere that when kids got to the place where they began to

understand abstraction, that they would think the " Family Circle " was funny,

before that they don't get it. I really saw that with Maggie, last summer she

finally started to " get " the humor. I think that was a bit delayed from other

kids. She loved to read old books of Family Circle cartoons but didn't think

they were funny, just informative. That's so interesting about Calvin and

Hobbes/Far Side. I could have used that with the Far Side. I first saw the Far

Side in Chicago in the 80's and would only " get " 2 or 3 of them per week. The

rest I would clip out and take to work and we'd try to figure them out. I got

to be such a Far Side fanatic that only about 3 times per year would there be

one I didn't get. Kind of scary cuz it is such weird humor.

Carol Flexer says that 90% of what kids learn is incidental or overheard. She

illustrates it in her book on " Facilitating Hearing and LIstening in young

children " with a cartoon of a day care lady and 3 babies sitting on the floor.

One baby (the one with hearing loss) is in a bubble. So whatever the day care

lady says to the other kids, the two hearing babies hear. But only when the

daycare lady is in the bubble does the bubble baby hear what she said. So the

hearing impaired baby just hears what is said directly to him. And I don't

remember if this was from her or not, but it was about a child with a hearing

loss that was seen as kind of a bad or frustrating kid. He didn't follow the

family rules about asking first if he could get food from the fridge. He had no

idea that was the rule in his family. He saw other kids go and get food from

the fridge so he did too. He didn't hear anyone asking to do so first.

We really saw this in Maggie, not just in things she didn't know or understand,

there were plenty of those, but in behavior. When her teachers used the

soundfield, she was able to focus on whatever she was supposed to be doing,

because she could hear the teacher telling other kids it was 10 minutes until

lunch or whatever. She could effortlessly monitor her environment by hearing

like most of us do. When the 3rd grade teacher didn't use the soundfield, she

was having to look around her to see what was going on. And that made her not

focus on what she was supposed to be doing. That is one of the things that

contributes to fatigue, having to be hypervigilant just to know what is going

on.

I find

>especially with Sam, he gets really upset if he doesn't get what's going

>on around him and then does the 20 questions routine (which actually I'm

>glad about).

When Maggie does this, her friends chalk it up to a blonde moment!

[Guest guest]

I remember hearing somewhere that when kids got to the place where they began to

understand abstraction, that they would think the " Family Circle " was funny,

before that they don't get it. I really saw that with Maggie, last summer she

finally started to " get " the humor. I think that was a bit delayed from other

kids. She loved to read old books of Family Circle cartoons but didn't think

they were funny, just informative. That's so interesting about Calvin and

Hobbes/Far Side. I could have used that with the Far Side. I first saw the Far

Side in Chicago in the 80's and would only " get " 2 or 3 of them per week. The

rest I would clip out and take to work and we'd try to figure them out. I got

to be such a Far Side fanatic that only about 3 times per year would there be

one I didn't get. Kind of scary cuz it is such weird humor.

Carol Flexer says that 90% of what kids learn is incidental or overheard. She

illustrates it in her book on " Facilitating Hearing and LIstening in young

children " with a cartoon of a day care lady and 3 babies sitting on the floor.

One baby (the one with hearing loss) is in a bubble. So whatever the day care

lady says to the other kids, the two hearing babies hear. But only when the

daycare lady is in the bubble does the bubble baby hear what she said. So the

hearing impaired baby just hears what is said directly to him. And I don't

remember if this was from her or not, but it was about a child with a hearing

loss that was seen as kind of a bad or frustrating kid. He didn't follow the

family rules about asking first if he could get food from the fridge. He had no

idea that was the rule in his family. He saw other kids go and get food from

the fridge so he did too. He didn't hear anyone asking to do so first.

We really saw this in Maggie, not just in things she didn't know or understand,

there were plenty of those, but in behavior. When her teachers used the

soundfield, she was able to focus on whatever she was supposed to be doing,

because she could hear the teacher telling other kids it was 10 minutes until

lunch or whatever. She could effortlessly monitor her environment by hearing

like most of us do. When the 3rd grade teacher didn't use the soundfield, she

was having to look around her to see what was going on. And that made her not

focus on what she was supposed to be doing. That is one of the things that

contributes to fatigue, having to be hypervigilant just to know what is going

on.

I find

>especially with Sam, he gets really upset if he doesn't get what's going

>on around him and then does the 20 questions routine (which actually I'm

>glad about).

When Maggie does this, her friends chalk it up to a blonde moment!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/24/2006 10:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

pcknott@... writes:

I got to be such a Far Side fanatic that only about 3 times per year would

there be one I didn't get. Kind of scary cuz it is such weird humor.

Oh dear ... then I am just a plain weirdo, since I rarely don't get them and

have always adored them, LOL. We love the Far Side!

Reading those cartoons with kids is such a great idea! We've always shared

that kind of stuff with friends and family (I confess that mailing cartoons to

each other is quite common) so we've always had to explain to the kids why we

think they're funny. I never thought of that as teaching colloquial language

uses. I have a new respect for cartoons now (grin)

This is also the kind of stuff Ian also didn't get when younger. He admitted

at one time when he heard someone had " let the cat out of the bag, " his

first thought was that someone was mean for putting a cat in a bag in the first

place. Cliche, but true. Sarcasm, wit, irony ... all those things are inferred

with tone of voice as well as body language. Ian learned to recognize body

language and facial expressions to indicate sarcasm because I am definitely

sarcastic and that helped Ian with that language concept. But other creative

uses of language like allusion, irony and idioms were lost on him and had to be

learned the hard way -- one instance at a time until the concept was

understood.

English is hard and communication is so multi-layered. Our ASL tutor has

said that her parents often don't understand sarcasm or rhetorical questions.

She said it made it hard to be an obnoxious teenager, since her parents simply

didn't get it, LOL.

<

>

We were, in some ways, lucky that Ian's hearing loss was misdiagnosed the

way it was. It was not addressed when it could have been and that is very

unfortunate, but we did know about his processing issues and what appeared to be

a

focus issue (which the school claimed was ADD). As a result, we were able to

use instructional strategies to address those which, oddly enough, are common

ones for a hearing loss. One of them was to get his attention and speak

while keeping eye contact, keeping him focused on the topic at hand or the

instruction being given. What we were doing wasn't actually helping him focus

-- he

was always quite focused, it was helping him lip read. So, it worked and it

helped him function in the classroom setting, but for all the wrong reasons.

The bad side of this: we were helping him hide his actual hearing loss for

even longer. (sigh)

Oddly enough, his 3rd grade teacher also had a mild hearing loss (Ian's

misdiagnosis) so she had no problem doing just what Ian needed and as a result,

3rd grade went beautifully for him. But then, 4th and 5th were unfortunately

nightmares when all his coping skills hit their limits and weren't enough to

carry him any further without appropriate services and support.

Our kids just amaze me with what they handle on a day to day basis!

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

It¹s funny, my son started reading Garfield cartoon books about a year ago,

and honestly, it drives me nuts. He¹s such a sassy cat, and Ben has picked

up some pretty annoying phrases. BUT it has given him access to idioms and

colloquial language like crazy. So, as much as I detest the little orange

cat, I¹m grateful for the language it has given my son. And he really gets

the sarcasm! Of course, I¹m sure the fact that his father and I have that

down pat doesn¹t hurt...

Stefanie

Mom to Ben, 7, severe/profound HOH, and Isabella, 11, mild loss

on 7/24/06 6:55 PM, JillcWood@... at JillcWood@... wrote:

>

> Reading those cartoons with kids is such a great idea! We've always shared

> that kind of stuff with friends and family (I confess that mailing cartoons to

> each other is quite common) so we've always had to explain to the kids why we

> think they're funny. I never thought of that as teaching colloquial language

> uses. I have a new respect for cartoons now (grin)

[Guest guest]

>

> When our boys were younger, we found the Amelia Bedelia books to be

> excellent - they're chock full o'idioms! I think they're so stupid but

> my boys loved them! I would read to them and then ask them if they

knew

> what " go fly a kite " means. It helped a bunch.

>

I remember liking Amelia Bedelia books when I was a kid. I didn't

realize I was learning idioms :-) I remember I thought they were

funny, but I think I felt sorry for Amelia because she made so many

mistakes. :-)

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

>

> When our boys were younger, we found the Amelia Bedelia books to be

> excellent - they're chock full o'idioms! I think they're so stupid but

> my boys loved them! I would read to them and then ask them if they

knew

> what " go fly a kite " means. It helped a bunch.

>

I remember liking Amelia Bedelia books when I was a kid. I didn't

realize I was learning idioms :-) I remember I thought they were

funny, but I think I felt sorry for Amelia because she made so many

mistakes. :-)

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

loves the Amelia Bedelia books, but the poor child just can't

pronounce her name. For a while she wanted us to call her Amelia

Bedelia and she would ask us what we wanted her to do. So when she went

to my mom's house and announced that she was Amea Bedea and she

wanted something to do, my mom had NO clue what she was talking about.

That's funny. We get " melia a - bagelia " from Caleb at our house.

God bless.

from Orlando

[Guest guest]

loves the Amelia Bedelia books, but the poor child just can't

pronounce her name. For a while she wanted us to call her Amelia

Bedelia and she would ask us what we wanted her to do. So when she went

to my mom's house and announced that she was Amea Bedea and she

wanted something to do, my mom had NO clue what she was talking about.

That's funny. We get " melia a - bagelia " from Caleb at our house.

God bless.

from Orlando

[Guest guest]

Funny how she says Amea Bedea. My mother calls azaleas " azaeas " . No " l " .

>

> loves the Amelia Bedelia books, but the poor child just can't

> pronounce her name. For a while she wanted us to call her Amelia

> Bedelia and she would ask us what we wanted her to do. So when she went to

> my mom's house and announced that she was Amea Bedea and she wanted

> something to do, my mom had NO clue what she was talking about.

>

> Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and , 4, hearing

>

> Barbara Mellert

Barbara.T.Mellert@...>

> wrote:

> When our boys were younger, we found the Amelia Bedelia books to be

> excellent - they're chock full o'idioms! I think they're so stupid but

> my boys loved them! I would read to them and then ask them if they knew

> what " go fly a kite " means. It helped a bunch.

>

> We also have the Scholastic dictionary of Idioms which is kind of fun.

> Not only does it tell you what each expression means, it tells you where

> it came from.

>

> Barbara

>

> Stefanie Cloutier wrote:

> > It¹s funny, my son started reading Garfield cartoon books about a year

> ago,

> > and honestly, it drives me nuts. He¹s such a sassy cat, and Ben has

> picked

> > up some pretty annoying phrases. BUT it has given him access to idioms

> and

> > colloquial language like crazy. So, as much as I detest the little

> orange

> > cat, I¹m grateful for the language it has given my son. And he really

> gets

> > the sarcasm! Of course, I¹m sure the fact that his father and I have

> that

> > down pat doesn¹t hurt...

> >

> > Stefanie

> > Mom to Ben, 7, severe/profound HOH, and Isabella, 11, mild loss

> >

> > on 7/24/06 6:55 PM, JillcWood@... at

> JillcWood@... wrote:

> >

> >

> >>

> >> Reading those cartoons with kids is such a great idea! We've always

> shared

> >> that kind of stuff with friends and family (I confess that mailing

> cartoons to

> >> each other is quite common) so we've always had to explain to the kids

> why we

> >> think they're funny. I never thought of that as teaching colloquial

> language

> >> uses. I have a new respect for cartoons now (grin)

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Funny how she says Amea Bedea. My mother calls azaleas " azaeas " . No " l " .

>

> loves the Amelia Bedelia books, but the poor child just can't

> pronounce her name. For a while she wanted us to call her Amelia

> Bedelia and she would ask us what we wanted her to do. So when she went to

> my mom's house and announced that she was Amea Bedea and she wanted

> something to do, my mom had NO clue what she was talking about.

>

> Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and , 4, hearing

>

> Barbara Mellert

Barbara.T.Mellert@...>

> wrote:

> When our boys were younger, we found the Amelia Bedelia books to be

> excellent - they're chock full o'idioms! I think they're so stupid but

> my boys loved them! I would read to them and then ask them if they knew

> what " go fly a kite " means. It helped a bunch.

>

> We also have the Scholastic dictionary of Idioms which is kind of fun.

> Not only does it tell you what each expression means, it tells you where

> it came from.

>

> Barbara

>

> Stefanie Cloutier wrote:

> > It¹s funny, my son started reading Garfield cartoon books about a year

> ago,

> > and honestly, it drives me nuts. He¹s such a sassy cat, and Ben has

> picked

> > up some pretty annoying phrases. BUT it has given him access to idioms

> and

> > colloquial language like crazy. So, as much as I detest the little

> orange

> > cat, I¹m grateful for the language it has given my son. And he really

> gets

> > the sarcasm! Of course, I¹m sure the fact that his father and I have

> that

> > down pat doesn¹t hurt...

> >

> > Stefanie

> > Mom to Ben, 7, severe/profound HOH, and Isabella, 11, mild loss

> >

> > on 7/24/06 6:55 PM, JillcWood@... at

> JillcWood@... wrote:

> >

> >

> >>

> >> Reading those cartoons with kids is such a great idea! We've always

> shared

> >> that kind of stuff with friends and family (I confess that mailing

> cartoons to

> >> each other is quite common) so we've always had to explain to the kids

> why we

> >> think they're funny. I never thought of that as teaching colloquial

> language

> >> uses. I have a new respect for cartoons now (grin)

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >